Kaladin and Shallan

[maxal]

9 hours ago, SLNC said:

I'm actually a Kaladin/Shallan shipper, so I should be happy, but I really can't be, because of how I loath "traditional" love triangles, but I also hate teen angst in my books. I really hope it will just be honest confusion on Shallans side and no crem dung bouts of anxiety and remorse.

I also think they will break up first, but tbh, I don't really see how that is any different from a traditional love triangle should Adolin and Shallan actually come together again in a future book. Sure, there is the oscillating factor, but too many break ups make break ups seem meaningless. I hope Brandon doesn't overdo them.

Indeed. Man, I really don't pity him right now.

I don't mind a bit of teen angst providing it doesn't become the sole decision maker for our protagonists. In other words, what I dislike are characters basing their entire decision making solely on a significant other: these things have to be balanced within a story, hence it becomes very unsatisfying to read. Examples which come to mind, Bella wanting to become a vampire and/or throwing herself down a cliff because a boy dumped her. 

This being I absolutely do not fear reading such plot arcs within a Brandon Sanderson book: he always goes very lightly onto the romance, thus I do not expect it will be an over-powering arc. 

As for how my suggestion trumps the traditional love triangle, allow me to further explain: I lacked time this morning for a more insightful post. My thoughts are, and anyone can correct me if my perception is somewhat wrong, traditional love triangles imply two men pinning on the same woman while the same woman oscillates in between the them. A good example would be the Bill/Sookie/Eric love triangle in True Blood. In a general manner, traditional love triangle are explored within the woman angle, rarely the men who often remain happy to each play the second fiddle to the other. Hence, having Adolin break it up, not because he doesn't love Shallan, not because he doesn't want to be with her, but because he feels he isn't good enough for her is less traditional, though not unheard of. Now come to mind, it suddenly sounds like Twilight 

Anyway. I guess I would personally find this story more engaging and more interesting if it focused more on Adolin's relationship problems as opposed to Shallan wondering whom she loves. 

You pity or you don't pity Adolin? Personally, I feed sorry for him: he has made some serious life-changing mistakes.

[Gavin-son-son-Odegard]

OK I know I'm somewhat late to this party but this is something that I feel strongly about, so I'd thought I put in my two cents as well.

I absolutely detest love triangles.

Like, I can't emphasize how much I hate love triangles. I get that there are a lot of you guys in this thread that love and enjoy this trope and I respect that and don't wish to come across as rude. That said I honestly hope Brandon doesn't go the love triangle route.

Aside from this being a predictable and tired over-used cliche, it doesn't really even make sense here. While there definitely is some attraction between Shallan and Kaladin why on earth would she leave Adolin for him. She and Adolin have a great relationship with mutual love and respect and a deep connection even though they've been together for a relatively short time. And even though it was an arranged betrothal, Shallan obvoiusly has genuine deep feelings for him and vice versa for Adolin.

Not to mention that the marriage makes great political sense for Shallan as well, being married into and allied with the most powerful family in Alethkar, it's essential for Shallan and her families future. This is something that's been said over and over in WOR. Even with Shallan being a KR now, she still needs that connection.   

Also while Shallan and Kaladin do definitely have great chemistry together and after the whole chasm ordeal, now a great deal of respect too, given how much they have in common. None of this means they'd be great as a couple. This is something that people tend not to consider, being good friends and getting along in that capacity does not in anyway guarantee that you'd also make a good couple as well.

Besides there are already more than enough romantic arcs and plotlines in fiction in any media while well-written platonic friendships between people of opposite sex - especially when their both straight - are harder to find. So can't we for once, just have a great, mature, well-written platonic relationship between two young, attractive protagonists? It's a lot more interesting to read and can make for great, far less predictable character development. Especially since both Kaladin and Shallan are awesome, nuanced characters with their own struggles and the fact that they have so much in common and the understanding that they've developed regarding one another after the chasm thing.

 I would love for there to be a scene or two (at least) of Shallan and Kalladin, say, practicing their Surgebinding and also their Shardblade skills - since their both inexperienced in that as well - together and bonding (platonically!) and learning with and from each other. Woudln't scenes and interactions like this be far more interesting and refreshing than the same old, done-a-thousand-times-before romantic plotline and love triangle and the inevitable drama and angst that would only serve to take up precious space in the book and detract from more important plots and character moments and such?

Edited April 6, 2017 by Gavin-son-son-Odegard

[Ironeyes]

12 minutes ago, Gavin-son-son-Odegard said:

OK I know I'm somewhat late to this party but this is something that I feel strongly about, so I'd thought I put in my two cents as well.

I absolutely detest love triangles.

Like, I can't emphasize how much I hate love triangles. I get that there are a lot of you guys in this thread that love and enjoy this trope and I respect that and don't wish to come across as rude. That said I honestly hope Brandon doesn't go the love triangle route.

Aside from this being a predictable and tired over-used cliche, it doesn't really even make sense here. While there definitely is some attraction between Shallan and Kaladin why on earth would she leave Adolin for him. She and Adolin have a great relationship with mutual love and respect and a deep connection even though they've been together for a relatively short time. And even though it was an arranged betrothal, Shallan obvoiusly has genuine deep feelings for him and vice versa for Adolin.

Not to mention that the marriage makes great political sense for Shallan as well, being married into and allied with the most powerful family in Alethkar, it's essential for Shallan and her families future. This is something that's been said over and over in WOR. Even with Shallan being a KR now, she still needs that connection.   

Also while Shallan and Kaladin do definitely have great chemistry together and after the whole chasm ordeal, now a great deal of respect too, given how much they have in common. None of this means they'd be great as a couple. This is something that people tend not to consider, being good friends and getting along in that capacity does not in anyway guarantee that you'd also make a good couple as well.

Besides there are already more than enough romantic arcs and plotlines in fiction in any media while well-written platonic friendships between people of opposite sex - especially when their both straight - are harder to find. So can't we for once, just have a great, mature, well-written platonic relationship between two young, attractive protagonists? It's a lot more interesting to read and can make for great, far less predictable character development. Especially since both Kaladin and Shallan are awesome, nuanced characters with their own struggles and the fact that they have so much in common and the understanding that they've developed regarding one another after the chasm thing.

 I would love for there to be a scene or two (at least) of Shallan and Kalladin, say, practicing their Surgebinding and also their Shardblade skills - since their both inexperienced in that as well - together and bonding (platonically!) and learning with and from each other. Woudln't scenes and interactions like this be far more interesting and refreshing than the same old, done-a-thousand-times-before romantic plotline and love triangle and the inevitable drama and angst that would only serve to take up precious space in the book and detract from more important plots and character moments and such?

This post describes my feelings on the matter perfectly. I'm an adamant Shadolin fan for these reasons. 

[Datan Nomlibash]

I'm not to worried. Brandon likes to take old tropes and twist them in interesting new ways (warbreaker) and even if it does turn into a love triangle I think it will be interesting to read anyway.

[Guest]

Thank you for your further explainations. Makes more sense now.

7 hours ago, maxal said:

You pity or you don't pity Adolin? Personally, I feed sorry for him: he has made some serious life-changing mistakes.

Oh, I feel sorry for him, but I don't pity him... Well, in Germany we have a saying "Bei dem möchte ich jetzt gerade nicht in der Haut stecken" (literally: I wouldn't like to be in his skin right now.). That's how I feel about Adolin atm.

 

[Guest]

5 hours ago, Gavin-son-son-Odegard said:

I absolutely detest love triangles.

Like, I can't emphasize how much I hate love triangles. I get that there are a lot of you guys in this thread that love and enjoy this trope and I respect that and don't wish to come across as rude. That said I honestly hope Brandon doesn't go the love triangle route.

I'm with you on that, but I do agree with @Datan Nomlibash in that Brandon probably would find a way to make it interesting.

5 hours ago, Gavin-son-son-Odegard said:

Aside from this being a predictable and tired over-used cliche, it doesn't really even make sense here. While there definitely is some attraction between Shallan and Kaladin why on earth would she leave Adolin for him. She and Adolin have a great relationship with mutual love and respect and a deep connection even though they've been together for a relatively short time. And even though it was an arranged betrothal, Shallan obvoiusly has genuine deep feelings for him and vice versa for Adolin.

Yes, it would be predictable trope, but I still think Brandon would make it interesting. Also I don't think Shallan would leave him, well, atleast not out of her own incentive. It will be Adolin, who will make the same mistake he always does and thinks he isn't "good enough" for her. Hell, I think he might even go so low - though I hope he won't - and start something with another woman on the side, just to get Shallan to leave him, because that's how he always did it and because he couldn't do it himself, because of - as you correctly stated - his genuine feelings for her. Please, don't understand me wrong. I don't think Adolin is a bad person or a coward per se. But he is shy (Shallan forcing him into kisses is a good example of this.), which can lead to cowardice.

Now to Shallan's side. I agree, she has feelings for Adolin and they are genuine, but... they are superficial. I can't remember one conversation, where they talked about each others feelings. This works for some time, there is a reason why most relationships begin with physical attraction, but she is a scholar at heart and will be left unsatisfied by just looks. You can even see it, when she thinks about Adolin, how handsome he is, mentally drooling over his smile, but at the same time remarking how he is mentally... blunt. Not stupid by any means, but blunt. Now this won't be enough to make her leave him, but it will be enough to create confusion in her head about her feelings for Adolin and Kaladin both, since Kaladin, being a surgeon, is much smarter, although not as handsome, but still good looking. And it would make overcoming Adolin leaving way easier for her - should it happen. We also have to remember, that Shallan was a very sheltered child and Adolin is the first love interest in her life, so obviously she is trying hard to make it work (Once again, forcing Adolin into kisses and being affectionate in public, which is frowned upon in Alethkar), but sooner or later may have to face that it may not work out. We'll see that, all we can do is RAFO. ...well and have wonderful speculations, even when we don't always agree. (I mean it! It's wonderful here. )

6 hours ago, Gavin-son-son-Odegard said:

Not to mention that the marriage makes great political sense for Shallan as well, being married into and allied with the most powerful family in Alethkar, it's essential for Shallan and her families future. This is something that's been said over and over in WOR. Even with Shallan being a KR now, she still needs that connection.   

With the Everstorm ravaging the land, this point became moot. Roshar will never be the same again. The Kholin family may be wiped out after the Desolation, as may the Davar family. It's all uncertain now. Oh, btw. Kholinar seems to be on fire already. With a narcissist as it's current regent - Queen Aesudan Kholin, Elhokar's wife.

Mraize claims he has Shallan's family, so the Kholins helping is out of the picture, since she wouldn't want to publicly reveal her association to the Ghostbloods.

6 hours ago, Gavin-son-son-Odegard said:

Also while Shallan and Kaladin do definitely have great chemistry together and after the whole chasm ordeal, now a great deal of respect too, given how much they have in common. None of this means they'd be great as a couple. This is something that people tend not to consider, being good friends and getting along in that capacity does not in anyway guarantee that you'd also make a good couple as well.

Of course not, but it also doesn't mean they'd make a bad couple. Mutual respect is one of the most important factors in successful relationships imo.

6 hours ago, Gavin-son-son-Odegard said:

Besides there are already more than enough romantic arcs and plotlines in fiction in any media while well-written platonic friendships between people of opposite sex - especially when their both straight - are harder to find. So can't we for once, just have a great, mature, well-written platonic relationship between two young, attractive protagonists? It's a lot more interesting to read and can make for great, far less predictable character development. Especially since both Kaladin and Shallan are awesome, nuanced characters with their own struggles and the fact that they have so much in common and the understanding that they've developed regarding one another after the chasm thing.

 I would love for there to be a scene or two (at least) of Shallan and Kalladin, say, practicing their Surgebinding and also their Shardblade skills - since their both inexperienced in that as well - together and bonding (platonically!) and learning with and from each other. Woudln't scenes and interactions like this be far more interesting and refreshing than the same old, done-a-thousand-times-before romantic plotline and love triangle and the inevitable drama and angst that would only serve to take up precious space in the book and detract from more important plots and character moments and such?

I'm positive, that if we don't see a romantic relationship, we'll atleast see a platonic relationship between Shallan and Kaladin. Which I would be cool with, but I'd still rather see Shallan and Kaladin together, because of exactly the fact, that they are "awesome, nuanced characters with their own struggles and the fact that they have so much in common and the understanding that they've developed regarding one another after the chasm thing." I want to have them spend more time together, get to know each other, talk about their feelings and pasts. I want them train together, Shallan training Kaladin's knowledge, Kaladin training Shallan's fighting skills. I want them to fight together. I want all of this without Adolin constantly interfering, just because he's her boyfriend/husband.

In conclusion, I'd say that we have an inevitable love triangle coming up.

[Gavin-son-son-Odegard]

16 hours ago, Datan Nomlibash said:

I'm not to worried. Brandon likes to take old tropes and twist them in interesting new ways (warbreaker) and even if it does turn into a love triangle I think it will be interesting to read anyway.

I'm not worried either. I have complete trust in Brandon as a storyteller. He's shown more than once how good he is at subverting genre tropes and conventions. I just really really don't want a love triangle in my favorite series. I realize that its my personal opinion and bias talking at this point, but I just can't help it. A well-written and not-completely-cliche love triangle is still a love triangle and while I'm sure it would at the very least be tolerable at Brandon's hands, I'd personally still prefer he doesn't go that route. 

[Calderis]

43 minutes ago, Gavin-son-son-Odegard said:

I'm not worried either. I have complete trust in Brandon as a storyteller. He's shown more than once how good he is at subverting genre tropes and conventions. I just really really don't want a love triangle in my favorite series. I realize that its my personal opinion and bias talking at this point, but I just can't help it. A well-written and not-completely-cliche love triangle is still a love triangle and while I'm sure it would at the very least be tolerable at Brandon's hands, I'd personally still prefer he doesn't go that route. 

Right there with you.

[Gavin-son-son-Odegard]

@SLNC, I get the logic behind you points and agree with some of them as well. I find your analysis of Shallan and Adolin's relationship interesting, though I don't agree with it fully. Sure Shallan's feelings for him begin on a superficial note, her just being overwhelmed by his good looks and charms and same was true for Adolin's initial attraction for her. However I'd argue that with them spending time with each other and getting to know each other throughout the course of WOR, they're slowly building a deeper, more mature connection, even though They've only been courting for a relatively short time. I genuinely see a depth to their relationship already and a potential for a beautiful and mature relationship based upon a great deal of love and trust and respect. There's already in my opinion a healthy amount of mutual respect between them.

And While it's true that Shallan and Kaladin have formed a deep connection and a great deal of respect for one another following their ordeal and revelations in the chasm and while this could suggest that they might make for a great couple,in my opinion that same reasoning can be used to argue against them as a couple. Let me tell you what I mean; just because two people are similar and have a lot in common doesn't automatically suggest they'd be good match, sometimes that can actually work against them. Often we need people who complement us and vice versa, a relationship when the two people in it balance each other out tends to be a healthy one.

Shallan and Kalladin are too similar in both what they've gone through as well as their attitudes. Their both too stubborn and hotheaded and I get the feeling that as a couple they would just butt heads and argue about every little thing.

Also there's the issue for me of the unnecessary relationship drama and angst and the inevitable jealousies that would come into play if the story goes that route. Ugh. Once again I do have absolute faith in Brandon as a writer and know that he can pull of anything beautifully. Still, love triangles by their very nature are wrapped in a world of drama and I'm not sure how much Brandon can avoid that.

It's probably abundantly obvious by now that I'm not the biggest fan of romance in general. Now I can enjoy a good romantic side plot in a novel so long as it is well written and doesn't take up too much 'screen time' so to speak. This is by the way, precisely why I'm so against love triangles since they inevitably result in romance coming to the forefront of a story and generate - in my opinion -  too much unneeded drama. I know this all my personal views and feelings and it's not like the existence of a love triangle in Oathbringer or any other Brandon Sanderson book would stop me from reading them - nothing short of a full-blown zombie apocalypse could potentially do that and even that might not be enough   -  so ultimately it's just a personal preference, and a very passionate one at that.  

Edited April 6, 2017 by Gavin-son-son-Odegard

[kari-no-sugata]

They're lots of ways Brandon could take things between Kaladin, Shallan and Adolin but it seems pretty clear that he wants to avoid over-used cliches.

Also, whatever happens between them will not happen in isolation. There's a lot else going on. Kaladin is going to be away for a while and there's the minor issue of him having killed Shallan's brother. Shallan will most likely be as busy as ever, juggling the Ghostbloods, her brothers (directly or indirectly), and her hobbies all while working towards saving the world. Adolin will have to deal (one way or another) with having killed Sadeas.

It would not be a big surprise if Adolin one-sidedly ends his relationship with Shallan to protect her from the fallout of him having killed Sadeas (and maybe other reasons). Unless Shallan fully understands Adolin's reasons then she would be quite hurt by it. If Kaladin returns to find out that Shallan+Adolin is officially over and he believes (rightly or wrongly) that he's in love with Shallan then he might confess to her. I don't think anybody has told Shallan that they love her (or at least not recently), so such a thing could have a big impact on her (it might be something she's craved for for a long time). However, I expect that one way or another that Shallan will realise that she genuinely loves Adolin and determines to seduce him all over again (not having realised that it's not necessary).

[kari-no-sugata]

14 hours ago, SLNC said:

We also have to remember, that Shallan was a very sheltered child and Adolin is the first love interest in her life, so obviously she is trying hard to make it work

Shallan was sheltered. She no longer is and even back home she was never your regular sheltered girl.

Also, her first love interest was Kabsal - early on with Adolin she had to remind herself not to get too carried away, using the example of Kabsal. Shallan had multiple practical reasons for wanting to make things work with Adolin before she ever met him... but her actual first meeting feels like "love at first sight". From such "lowly" beginnings their relationship progressed quickly - notice that Shallan was particularly annoyed with Kaladin for insulting Adolin.

[maxal]

Here are a few various comments made to no one in particular and everyone all at once 

On Love Triangles

I will venture myself into stating love triangles' unpopularity seems to sprout from a common desire to see the focus remain onto the main narrative as opposed to the romantic sub arc. The general perspective appears to be having a love triangle necessarily imply reading the musing of a girl protagonist as her heart balances in between two handsome males. It might also be several feel a love triangle would make the main narrative stall to a dead point waiting for it to be solved before moving on. Alternatively, many seem to lead to characters not speaking to each other, interpreting other characters intentions as opposed to just asking them which can often lead to an incredibly frustrating read. 

All this to say, including romance within fantasy needs to be done with touch and taste, but excluding it can lead to unrealistic story telling as love is part of our lives, whether we want it or not though I will admit we do not all stand equal in these matters. While some wish for more in-depth romance, while others wish for more sexual inter-course, there are those who aren't overly interested in romance within fantasy books. I will however take for granted those reading and responding to this thread have, at the very least, a moderate interest into seeing one of those ship sails

This being said, a good enthralling, interesting romance arc does have hardships, drama, conflict and well something to make it worth reading. Thus, if Shallan and Adolin were to settle into a happy life, keeping married despite the brewing conflicts, but ignoring them because their love is stronger and just turn out into this rock stable union, it wouldn't be.... interesting.

Why?

Because it would drastically ignore those characters still need more growth before they can each commit to someone else: Adolin has his relationship issues and Shallan has to decide what she wants as opposed to always bow to others suggestions on what she might do (becoming Jasnah's ward, stealing the soulcaster, conning the Kholin, marrying Adolin...). I feel this last point is often overlooked. Yes, Shallan has been sheltered. She mused, at some point, over the fact it sounded wonderful to be Jasnah Kohlin and have the opportunity to chose as to whether or not she ought to marry. She never expected to have a say in the matter, but now the tables have turned and she does have one. I personally feel her character growth would be lesser if she isn't allowed to make this choice, to make this decision, not because she needs a powerful alliance to save her family, but because she genuinely want to be with this man. Because she actually love him.

Shallan however is dwelling into lies and tomorrow isn't the day she is going to separate them from the truth. She has to progress towards it and when it comes to relationships, to her feelings, to admitting what she actually wants, I do see her oscillating in between both halves of her personality. Hence, experimenting with other men seem a necessary task for her as I don't think she can ever decide she truly loves Adolin unless she goes down to the end of things with someone like Kaladin. Mind, doing this means she might decide Kaladin is the one, I cannot say, though I hope not, but it remains a very strong possibility.

It does seem to me, the dreaded love triangle is pretty much a requirement. Shallan's character growth, with respect to her future romantic life, does need to weight in what she wants from what she thinks she wants from what others tell her she wants. It however does not need to be grating. It does not need to have Shallan make a long series of bad decisions based on her heart, she does not have to jump a cliff to be rescued by half-naked Kaladin, she does not need to save Adolin's head from being exploded, she does need to have any of those elements we all inwardly cringe when thinking the words "love triangle".

Another aspect I haven't mentioned is Kaladin himself. Now, I don't feel Kaladin needs a romantic arc, not now in the story anyway. I would plumb his narrative if he has to deal with a romance sub arc on top of everything else he is already dealing it. This being said, there was the inkling of something, on Kaladin's side, when it comes to Shallan. A glimpse, a thought which may or may not develop into romantic feelings, but sadly or gladly, it needs to be explored. Ignoring those moments happened would be doing both the character and the readers a disservice. Hence, something needs to happen, whether Kaladin is the endgame or not, it needs to be explored before it reaches its conclusion.

It does appear, to me at the very least, a love triangle or something akin to it will need to happen if we are to wrap up those story arc in a satisfying manner.

On Adolin and Relationships

I have been arguing from quite some time on how important it was for Adolin's character to get closure within the relationship department. I have argued there was something going on here which was more than him having a wandering eye and wanting to fool around with as many women as possible. I have had a hard time convincing others there was more to it. Yes, as other have stated, Adolin is shy. He isn't forward which isn't what I would expect out of an expert "womanizer" as the story sometimes try to make us believe. Since the books written words aren't enough, here is a short collection of relevant WoB 

Quote

 

BLIGHTSONG

Is Adolin's inability to form meaningful relationships important to his overall character arch? (Shoutouts to Maxal)

BRANDON SANDERSON

Yes, it is.

QUESTION

What is the thing with Adolin's serial dating? Is it just...?

BRANDON SANDERSON

He is bad with relationships, and that's just it. He's a little bit scared of being good at relationships, and so there's some kind of unconscious sabotaging going on. But yeah, he's young and he's bad at relationships.

QUESTION

Are we ever going to find out about all of Adolin's failed relationships?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Probably a little bit more. Not a ton. But a little bit more.

QUESTION

Can you tell us something with respect to Adolin and his relationship with Renarin?

BRANDON SANDERSON

When very young Adolin was jealous of the attention Renarin got.

QUESTION

Why is Dalinar very restrictive of Adolin but not with Renarin and Elhokar?

BRANDON SANDERSON 

It is a little bit - I would say a slight flaw on Dalinar's part, he's too hard on Adolin. But that's because Adolin is in line for the throne, and he's the eldest son, and the heir, and all of that stuff. I would say that Dalinar's a little too lax in some ways, a little too strict in others.

 

It is thus, no matter how I shuffle things out, I always come up with the conclusion there is something wrong with Adolin and his relationships. He has problems with them which cannot solely be explained by youth, especially not in a society where it is customary to marry in your teen years. 

My conclusions are thus Adolin, just as Brandon said, is afraid of not being good enough: how his character is being perceived by others appear to be one of his most defining trait. From my perspective, he has been asked to cope with a lot (death of a mother, crazy father, disabled brother), but chose not to let any of it truly affect him, except we see it coming through, from times to times, with relationships, especially. The fact Adolin doesn't feel he is "good enough" for relationships implies he might genuinely not feel he is up to it as it. Without a precise set of rules he needs to obey to fall within his father's good grace, he might not know how to behave, how to be. It seems to me Adolin feels he isn't good enough because nobody ever made him feel he was. And it probably all comes down to how he was raised: by a hard authoritative over-bearing father (all words Brandon used to described Dalinar) with a disabled brother who garnered most of the family's attention due to his condition. Mind, none of it might have become a problem had the circumstances been different, but right now Adolin reads like a lose canon ready to blow out, from my perspective this is.

As a result, I do feel Adolin's relationship issues need to be broached if we are to read a satisfying conclusion to this particular arc. It can't just be ignored, hence the conflict I mentioned earlier need to happen and it most likely will happen throw Adolin as this is where his character has a weakness. Thus, a stable ride with no bumps does not appear as an interesting way to steer the story forward.

On Shallan/Adolin and Shallan/Kaladin

On this I will also say a few words, it has been argued Shallan could challenge Kaladin's mind in a positive manner, but I wil argue it would be more interesting to see her challenge Adolin's mind. Kaladin already considers himself a smart man: I do not see what discussing with Shallan could add to his character. Adolin considers himself a dumb man (even he is far from being it): Shallan might be exactly the woman he needs to start trusting in his mental capacities. He might be blunt, but he isn't dumb: his strategy making has marked him as a very smart man, just not one who ever thought of exercising those functions. His straight-forward honesty might also be what persistently lying and truth's distorting Shallan needs to ground herself. 

It thus seems to me Shallan/Adolin have more to bring to the other than Shallan/Kaladin. It is my perspective they fit better, together, as pieces of puzzles falling into place, but this perception will always be challenged by others having other perceptions. 

There is also the never-ending argument of pairing Shallan/Kaladin might occupy too much of the main narrative and leave little room for other characters. I have no desire to see Adolin be the third wheel of the cart: I wish for him to be a protagonist in his own right with his own story arc. Hopefully, the new flashback bodes good news for his future in this respect. 

Conclusion

This post is getting rather long, so I will end it briefly. I do think we shouldn't worry too much about the love triangle. It does seem as it will be a requirement if all characters are to have a satisfying growth.

 

 

 

 

 

[Fulminato]

 

On 6/4/2017 at 10:45 AM, SLNC said:

With the Everstorm ravaging the land, this point became moot. Roshar will never be the same again. The Kholin family may be wiped out after the Desolation, as may the Davar family. It's all uncertain now. Oh, btw. Kholinar seems to be on fire already. With a narcissist as it's current regent - Queen Aesudan Kholin, Elhokar's wife.

Mraize claims he has Shallan's family, so the Kholins helping is out of the picture, since she wouldn't want to publicly reveal her association to the Ghostbloods

more than that, the jah keved's succession war near shattered the kingdom, all high prince are death, and i suppose many-near-all the shallan's family creditor are out of the pictiure (death o broke). roshar don't have any room left for little petty politics, like the saedas' murdered. the world have bigger concern. and the new shallan title of radiant knight probably outrank even a highprince hier

Edited April 7, 2017 by Fulminato

[geralt]

On 4/5/2017 at 2:22 AM, maxal said:

As incredible as it might sound, I actually spent a week without noticing this one:

Q: Will Kaladin and Shallan get together? 
A: There will be Shalladin moments in Oathbringer.

Ah.... Well... I have no comments other than it bodes very badly for Adolin/Shallan and it bodes very well for Kaladin/Shallan.

 

Did he actually say Shalladin moments? I wonder if he's aware of all the shipping (wars) for this series.

 

Anyways, that sounds like great news to me. I was starting to think that Kaladin and Shallan wouldn't see each other in Oathbringer, or maybe only briefly, and that would suck because we need to see them interact a bit more before we can truly say they fit each other or not. Most importantly, though, I need to read about the meeting between Syl and Pattern because that can only turn out to be bloody entertaining.

Edited April 7, 2017 by geralt

[Guest]

4 hours ago, geralt said:

Most importantly, though, I need to read about the meeting between Syl and Pattern because that can only turn out to be bloody entertaining.

I can't wait for that.

[kari-no-sugata]

I figured someone would have written up a good little essay on the problem with love triangles and I found this quite easily:

https://woodthewriter.com/2015/04/17/why-i-hate-love-triangles/

For me, the biggest issue is "no sense of progress" - badly done love triangles suffer from a sense that nothing ever changes or is likely to change until the end. In a post above I did sketch out a possible sequence of events for Adolin, Shallan and Kaladin. If that happened quite quickly (eg was completely resolved by the end of the next book) then there would be a sense of progress (of change). If the exact same thing occurred over several books then it would likely be aggravating.

One thing I hope we get with our trio is that whatever romantic developments occur form part of their personality and character arc. For example, Shallan has historically been more than willing to put the interests of her family/brothers ahead of her own - to put it another way, she hasn't been prioritising her own personal happiness. She is certainly changing in this regard and if that continues then one potential culmination of that would be "going with her heart" with regards to romance even though that option might be against the best interest of her brothers. For most of WoR, Shallan's personal and practical desires with regards to Adolin aligned up nicely, but if he's disowned (or whatever) over Sadeas then that would change the situation a lot and be likely to cause Shallan some internal conflict. For Adolin, given his past problems with relationships and his views of himself, maybe "losing everything" (being disowned) but having Shallan still wanting to be with him would be the best way to help him get over his relationship issues.

[Gavin-son-son-Odegard]

@maxal

14 hours ago, maxal said:

On Shallan/Adolin and Shallan/Kaladin

On this I will also say a few words, it has been argued Shallan could challenge Kaladin's mind in a positive manner, but I wil argue it would be more interesting to see her challenge Adolin's mind. Kaladin already considers himself a smart man: I do not see what discussing with Shallan could add to his character. Adolin considers himself a dumb man (even he is far from being it): Shallan might be exactly the woman he needs to start trusting in his mental capacities. He might be blunt, but he isn't dumb: his strategy making has marked him as a very smart man, just not one who ever thought of exercising those functions. His straight-forward honesty might also be what persistently lying and truth's distorting Shallan needs to ground herself. 

It thus seems to me Shallan/Adolin have more to bring to the other than Shallan/Kaladin. It is my perspective they fit better, together, as pieces of puzzles falling into place, but this perception will always be challenged by others having other perceptions. 

I completely agree with this. You articulated the reason why  Shallan/Adolin make a far better couple than Shallan/Kalladin better than I ever could. 

I also agree that both Shallan and Adolin need a lot more development and maturing up both as individuals and as couple before being able to settle down with each other. And them breaking up or at least distancing themselves from each other is a good way to go about doing that, and I'd be completely fine with that, so long as Shallan and Adolin breaking up doesn't lead to her and Kaladin dating.

 Which is where we disagree. I'd love to see Kaladin and Shallan's relationship progress and develop as much as you, but I maintain that it'll be alot more interesting if its done in a platonic manner. Let them spend time with each other, training, comparing notes on spren and surgebinding, getting to know eavh other even better and form a deeper connection and friendship. Friendship. Romance would be predictable here, a tired route. And sure these two are definitely attracted to each other somewhat, I don't deny that, but the attractions are for now on the more shallow side. It's natural for them to wonder of course, but personally I really hope that they discuss this with transparency as soon as possible and decide they work better as friends.

As for Adolin, if Kaladin and Shallan remain platonic, then we can avoid the jealousy on his part. Instead Kaladin and Shallan's growing friendship can be a opportunity for adolin to grow as a person himself. Looking at how well those two understand eachother and wanting to emulate that, perhaps asking Kaladin for help in understanding Shalan better, and Kaladin actully helping him with that and not acting with jealousy  (despite his own conflicted feelings). This is a much more mature way to handle this situation instead of romantic drama between the three of them.

I'll say it again, I don't have anything against romance plot lines in general, so long as they're handled well, I'd enjoy them like any other aspect of a story. I just don't think there's any need to insert extra romantic drama and tension when there are better, non-romance options.

As for Kaladin, I won't be opposed to him getting a romantic arc at some point, cuz god knows the dude can really use a girlfriend, but I'd rather it be someone other than Shallan, someone who complements him just as Shallan and Adolin do for eachother. And I'd prefer for it to happen late in the series, somewhere in book 4 or 5. Rysn could be a good candidate if they ever meet up.    

[TJStephens11]

I have read through this thread several times and I still find it hard to believe we have only brought this up once... and really it got no love.  

Their spren can't stand each other...  there is really NO WAY that Kaladin and Shallan end up together.

[DeployParachute]

1 hour ago, TJStephens11 said:

I have read through this thread several times and I still find it hard to believe we have only brought this up once... and really it got no love.  

Their spren can't stand each other...  there is really NO WAY that Kaladin and Shallan end up together.

While it is true that the books have alluded to the active disagreement and potential political conflict between the two groups of spren known as Honorspren and Cryptics, I think "can't stand each other" is a little strong, given that the individual spren Syl and Pattern have never met.  Likely, I think that at worst Syl would find Pattern boring, or not fun (because he wouldn't give in to her taunts and pranks, much like Rock).  I also think it would be pretty crummy to not be able to explore romantic feelings for someone simply because your spren's..."sprace?" didn't get along.

Also, I would point out (as I have done many times in previous shipping threads with @maxal) the biggest argument in favor of Shalladin is that they are such polar opposites in many respects.  Normally on its own, that wouldn't be enough to be convincing, but when Brandon spends a good paragraph in the chasm scene having Shallan stating her opinion that the greatest masterpieces in art are study of contrasts, it seems pretty apparent that that is where Brandon's thoughts on Shalladin progression lay.  The spren conflict only adds to that I think.

[Calderis]

While I doubt it will be the way it plays out in the books, I'm still entertained anytime someone mentions "individual" spren. The nature of spren as a Cognitive entity, a living idea, means they aren't individual. Two spren of the same variety should be functionally carbon copies of each other. I imagine that the bond giving them sentience in the physical realm will change that and give them their own personalities, but an honorspren/cryptic/windspren should be exactly the same as every other of the same type. 

[maxal]

@kari-no-sugata: It was a very interesting article, thank you for posting it. I think it does summarize the highs and lows of love triangle quite neatly. I would resume it in saying the one requirement for an enjoyable love triangle is for each protagonist to have his/her own character development. Hence, having one member (or several) or a trio existing only so they can provide romantic tension is the sure recipe to an unsympathetic frustrating love triangle. It also explains why the Zane/Vin/Elend love triangle turned out being so unpopular: Zane seems to have been dropped into the story with the sole purpose to introduce conflict within the Vin/Elend romantic ship. While I didn't mind it all that much, forces is to admit it grated many readers.

Hence, if Adolin/Shallan/Kaladin are to turn into a viable enthralling love triangle, all members need to exist outside this romantic arc. This isn't a problem for Shallan and Kaladin as they both have deep main narrative filled with many elements, but it isn't currently true for Adolin. His character needs a stronger arc, readers need to feel he exists for reasons other than being Shallan's romantic interest. Hopefully, Brandon changing his mind and writing flashbacks scenes for Adolin is a sign he wishes to wrap up the character into a protagonist. Hopefully, it will quell all comments stating Adolin need to turn evil and/or die just so he could move out of the way of the "more important" Shallan/Kaladin ship.

Thus I do agree with you in saying the romantic development needs to be part of each character's narrative and personality. It needs to add something to each character, something interesting we wouldn't get without the ship.isn't 

I also agree with you Shallan's character development passes through her making her own decisions with regards to her future. In other words, whoever she chooses (or nobody) has to be the one truth for her and not the choices she makes because she feels she ought to sacrifice herself for her family. 

On Adolin's side, I feel resolution onto the romantic side will only happen once he finally manages to acknowledge the man he wants to be. In other words, Adolin has to find his own worth, he has to figure out he is a good person even if he doesn't always obey to his father, he has to admit how Dalinar views him isn't the only measure of his worth. I fear he might never be ready for a real relationship until he processes through these, until he and his father move out of their "I order, you obey" relationship. I know most readers tend to disagree with me here, but I keep feeling everything originates from Dalinar. My thoughts are Dalinar shaped the future of Adolin, Renarin and Elhokar up to various levels which means each one of those characters resolution will pass through Dalinar, one way or the other.

I personally feel what may change something for Adolin is someone saying they love him, just him. Someone who does not care about his name and/or his title, someone who thinks just him, stripped bare is enough. This is precisely what I feel young Adolin never got, hence his... issues.

@Gavin-son-son-Odegard: I am a strong supporter of Shallan/Kaladin as a platonic relationship. I however feel it will never get there until they both evaluate if their feelings indeed are... platonic. I also feel what Shallan/Kaladin could bring to each other could be achieved outside a romantic partnership while I feel what Shallan/Adolin could bring to each other cannot happen outside romance. In other words, Shallan and Adolin will never be friends. If they break apart, the best they can hope for is a cordial relationship, one where they avoid each other as much as possible, but I realistically do not envision Shallan and Adolin ever developing into a friendship. Adolin's feelings towards Shallan, just as Dalinar's feelings towards Navani, will always get in the way.

As for jealousy and Adolin, I'd say most people quite it wrong. Most people envision Adolin turning jealous of Kaladin and having this jealousy turn into hate/anger, but this behavior is outside his character natural patterns. Yes, Adolin was once jealous of his younger brother because he got more attention than he did, but he never turned it out on Renarin. All clues indicate he instead buckled up and made his very best to be as perfect as his parents would require so he too would be worth attention. Hence, I feel if Adolin starts feeling he is lacking, when compared to Kaladin, he might just push himself forward, harder. I have always felt Adolin's breaking point would be truly reached when he'll fail to maintain the illusion perfect Adolin is who he is: when he acknowledges it has all been a lie. this is when he'll break down. It is a very slow breaking, one which might never happen in a life time, but if it does happen, it will be painful.

As this point in time within the story, I do not need Kaladin to have a romantic partner. Worst, I feel it would currently be superfluous as his character is dealing with so much already, I honestly do not see what romance would add to him. It isn't like Shallan who needs to make decisions for her own and/or Adolin who has real issues with relationships. Kaladin just doesn't need it, not right now, but things might change, in future books. I am personally growing quite found of a potential Kaladin/Lift romance arc within the second arc of SA.

@DeployParachute: Hi again  We indeed have had a few heated discussion as to whom made the ultimate ship. I fear we might never convince each other to switch camp (nor would I want to) but I will take up onto your contrast idea because I feel I can use it to my own ends 

You are right in saying one of the pro Kaladin/Shallan ship argument has been the fact their character contrasted with each other (lies/honor) in ways which may work. I wouldn't however state Brandon's is definitely going there in terms of progression as I think too much is currently left open. I will however state one of the leading argument, in favor of Shallan/Kaladin, relies on the idea Shallan would be happier with supposedly smarter (I say supposedly because I am not convinced it is a fact) Kaladin. It has been stated Kaladin was Shallan's intellectual equal (just as many considers Kaladin is intellectually superior to basically everyone, ranging himself up there with Jasnah). Once you start to dig onto this argument, it becomes clear many readers feel Shallan would never be happy and fulfilled with mentally blunt Adolin (not stupid just direct which has nothing to do with intelligence).

It is thus your contrast becomes inverted....

See, on one side, people are arguing Shallan and Kaladin deserves each other because their sprens and orders incompatibility yield for the ultimate contrast which is sure to work out in a positive way. On the other side, you have people arguing Shallan and Kaladin have so much in more in common they totally make a stronger ship: both are Radiant, both are broken, both are considered (or considered themselves) very smart, both are quick with come-backs (funny and/or unfunny).

I have since then come to the conclusion people will use whichever argument they feel give their ship precedence. Since I do the same, I will certainly not blame them, but I will state the contrast argument can be used both ways and has indeed been used both ways. In other words, people have argued Shallan and Kaladin should be together because they are both contrast and alike. 

I have always felt the argument could be used to the Shallan and Adolin ship as well. While Shallan and Adolin perhaps have more easily compatible mentalities (honorable when needed to, dishonorable is required), they also are full of contrasts. Shallan is a Radiant, Adolin is not: this contrasts perhaps more than Kaladin being from an opposide order as Adolin has no idea what it means to be a Radiant. Shallan is broken, Adolin is not: he has had hardships, but he turned out rather "normal" of not for his relationship issues. Shallan is smart while Adolin is considered dumb: not that he is dumb, but find me one reader (besides myself) who thinks Kaladin isn't ranking several levels above Adolin in terms of intelligence. It seems to me there are more contrasting elements within the Shallan/Adolin ship then there are within the Shallan/Kaladin ship.

It might be just me, but I honestly do not pay too much heed to contrast when it comes to arguments. I tend to look at what each union would bring to its members and, each time, I conclude Shallan/Adolin is the one relationship whom would steer both character development in a positive way. In other words, I do not feel Shallan/Kaladin, except for banter, would bring each character much in terms of resolution. I could be wrong, but this is how I am currently reading it.

[gengar]

I haven't read all the five pages of posts so excuse me if I'm repeating something that has already been said but what if that love triangle is related to kaladin's 4th oath. There is a WoB that says we can already guess his next oath. What if in oath bringer he gets closer to Shallan but it's like stealing her from Adolin, not a quality I'd expect from an honorable leader, and so his next oath will be about him letting go of his feelings for her.

[geralt]

15 hours ago, TJStephens11 said:

I have read through this thread several times and I still find it hard to believe we have only brought this up once... and really it got no love.  

Their spren can't stand each other...  there is really NO WAY that Kaladin and Shallan end up together.

32 minutes ago, gengar said:

I haven't read all the five pages of posts so excuse me if I'm repeating something that has already been said but what if that love triangle is related to kaladin's 4th oath. There is a WoB that says we can already guess his next oath. What if in oath bringer he gets closer to Shallan but it's like stealing her from Adolin, not a quality I'd expect from an honorable leader, and so his next oath will be about him letting go of his feelings for her.

Honestly, I think if Kaladin and Shallan don't get together, it will either be because they're just not suited to one another or Adolin is simply a better match for Shallan.

I really doubt outside reasons such as their spren hating each other could seriously interfere with their potential relationship, especially if the two radiants truly cared about one another. And I find it even more unlikely that his next words could be something like: "I won't try it on my mate's girl", as it would be a pretty frivolous oath for a Knight Radiant. Hilarious, but frivolous.

Still, if Kaladin does make a move on Shallan while she's engaged with Adolin, then I'll definitely be disappointed. Not because he'd be infringing his oaths, but the bro code

[maxal]

1 hour ago, gengar said:

I haven't read all the five pages of posts so excuse me if I'm repeating something that has already been said but what if that love triangle is related to kaladin's 4th oath. There is a WoB that says we can already guess his next oath. What if in oath bringer he gets closer to Shallan but it's like stealing her from Adolin, not a quality I'd expect from an honorable leader, and so his next oath will be about him letting go of his feelings for her.

While Brandon did say we had all the information to guess what Kaladin's next oath might be, I would argue the one you are suggesting has already been covered into his previous oaths. There was a thread where I once wrote alternative versions of Kaladin's oaths in order to highlight just how different the progression from one Windrunner to the other might be. For instance, the "I will protect those I hate as long as it is right" oath could easily be turned into "I will not allow my feelings to decide whom I should protect" or "I will protect people because it is right, not because I love them" and so on. Hence, I certainly feel the idea Kaladin should not allow his feelings for Shallan to steer him away from his task of protecting Adolin is very well covered within the third oath.

Stealing Shallan from Adolin would definitely impact Kaladin's capacities in protecting Adolin which is one of the oath he has swore. 

50 minutes ago, geralt said:

Still, if Kaladin does make a move on Shallan while she's engaged with Adolin, then I'll definitely be disappointed. Not because he'd be infringing his oaths, but the bro code

Not that I think Kaladin would ever try to steal Shallan from Adolin, not unless he felt he ought to protect her from him, nor do I think Shallan is an object which has to be taken, but I do wonder how Kaladin now perceives Adolin and vice-versa. While it is true Adolin has tried to develop a more meaningful relationship with Kaladin (incredibly awkwardly), Kaladin hasn't truly responded in a positive manner. While it is also true Kaladin ends up admitting he actually liked Adolin, despite him being a lighteyed, the two of them still haven't progressed enough, one towards the other, to truly call each other "friends". 

Yeah, we the readers, we see it. Adolin has Kaladin's back. He proved it. He wants him by his side to fight whatever this Desolation will throw at them. And yeah, Kaladin has Adolin's back: he will protect him with his life is need be. The question is: "Do they know it?". Does Adolin know Kaladin has stopped hating him? Does he know Kaladin thinks of him in other terms but "spoiled princeling"? Does Kaladin know Adolin isn't holding it against him for being a Radiant? Does he know he is actually happy about it? He might be insecure about everyone else, but Kaladin, Kaladin he is genuinely happy about his new status. Does Kaladin know?

Hence, we might read them as bros, but they haven't started to think of each other in such terms. Perhaps someone should ask Brandon if there will be Kaladin/Adolin bromance moments in Oathbringer? 

[Farnsworth]

On 4/5/2017 at 6:25 PM, Gavin-son-son-Odegard said:

Not to mention that the marriage makes great political sense for Shallan as well, being married into and allied with the most powerful family in Alethkar, it's essential for Shallan and her families future. This is something that's been said over and over in WOR. Even with Shallan being a KR now, she still needs that connection.   

 

Agreed. Shallan cannot afford to change the situation. what better motivation that "if you don't do this, everybody left of your family will likely die in a slave mine". Things don't go well for lords who don't pay their debts.