Kaladin and Shallan

[bdoble97]

Always been a sucker for a good love story but don't want this love triangle at all. I would love to see Kaladin and Syl become something maybe somehow Syl could gain physical form I want to wear offspring of them to would be probably super powerful

[Aon Ene]

I am undecided, but I mostly ship Kaladin/Shallan. I also have a theory that Kaladin could fall for Veil, which would really make things interesting!

 

[bdoble97]

44 minutes ago, Aon Ene said:

I am undecided, but I mostly ship Kaladin/Shallan. I also have a theory that Kaladin could fall for Veil, which would really make things interesting!

 

Now that's a cool idea

[Sami]

Somehow I can't see Shallan providing the 'real love that Adolin needs'.

Adolin needs someone that isn't so busy running around and being a Radiant, and can focus more on being his wife and giving him the support and love that he needs.

But that's just my opinion 

Edited July 12, 2017 by Sami

[Guest]

54 minutes ago, FiveLate said:

Shallon/Veil get together and live happily ever after

Uhhh... Alright then.

[Vissy]

Shallan x Veil, they're already together so they're the true ship right?

[the winter system]

reading this thread made me realize Eshonai probably isn't actually a lesbian in canon and that was just baseless assumption. frowny face. 

[iamstick]

Sadeas's murder: It was perfectly understandable. The man was threatening to destroy the kingdom and Adolin's family, monologuing how he was going to shape the narrative. It had to stop there or Sadeas's shortsighted goals could threaten the entirety of humanity on Roshar. Nevertheless, Adolin's actions were brutal, in the heat of the moment, and not very well guided by why Sadeas had to die. Further, Adolin hid his actions by cutting away the chalk marks and ditching Oathbringer. These are not the actions of a righteous killing (mens rea).

The king is an incredibly weak man (and it's a pity the son inherits, because Jasnah would never had made all his mistakes). He is so ingrained in the politics of sycophants that he will go after Adolin, insisting on exile or worse, if the truth comes out, which it will. That's going to put a damper on Adolin and Shallan's relationship. A period of exile, where Shallan cannot follow will probably be a good avenue narratively as well for developing Adolin (whom I adore) even further. I am fully in the Adolin/Shallan end-game camp.

As for Kaladin, we're seeing echoes of Gavilar (Adolin)/Navani (Shallan)/Dalinar (Kaladin), so he may end up with Shallan at some very distant point in the future. I kind of hope Sanderson does not go there. I'd rather them bond as good friends (although that's unlikely because Kaladin, once he's past the "stupid entitled lighteyes" phase, definitely is showing signs of both lust and caring). In any case, he'd make a crap boyfriend at this point in his life, with too many unresolved issues. Going home, facing his past, and growing up a little is going to be needed before he'll be ready for any real human relationship. Plus, Syl doesn't like Cryptics, and Pattern would be part of any Kaladin/Shallan pairing beyond friendship.

Shallan herself likes Adolin (he's adorable, who wouldn't), recognizes his good qualities, and sees some depth and cunning that he takes pains to hide. It's a good balance to her impulsivity, and he has the court experience she needs. I don't think Sanderson is going to go all Twilight on us, and I can easily see the causal becoming a full betrothal before Adolin gets kicked out (for a time at least) for Sadeas's murder. 

Ialai, or as I like to think of her as Lady Crustacean Macbeth, is going to be a force to be reckoned with. Killing Sadeas won't end his games, and it's likely that many of the narratives he put out there in his final conversation with Adolin were from her design. I'd love to see Palona take her out.

[Guest]

11 hours ago, iamstick said:

As for Kaladin, we're seeing echoes of Gavilar (Adolin)/Navani (Shallan)/Dalinar (Kaladin)

Obviously, since both were some kind of love triangle-y thing...

11 hours ago, iamstick said:

so he may end up with Shallan at some very distant point in the future.

...which doesn't mean, that it will fold out exactly the way it did with Gavilar/Navani/Dalinar.

11 hours ago, iamstick said:

In any case, he'd make a crap boyfriend at this point in his life, with too many unresolved issues.

Right. So whenever a partner has personal "issues", he is a "crap boyfriend". He hadn't even have the chance to show his potential yet. Plus, Shallan has her own burdens, as does Adolin. It is human to have burdens, but I don't get to see them getting criticized and judged for it all the time...

11 hours ago, iamstick said:

Going home, facing his past, and growing up a little is going to be needed before he'll be ready for any real human relationship.

You grow through your relationships... Forming relationships is a big part of human life and are necessary for personal development. I don't know, how long he should wait before he is "ready for any real human relationship". Seriously, sometimes I think, that people think, that Kaladin is some inept sociopath, who isn't capable of romance.

11 hours ago, iamstick said:

Plus, Syl doesn't like Cryptics, and Pattern would be part of any Kaladin/Shallan pairing beyond friendship.

And? This is like saying, that cat owners can't love dog owners.

Frankly, I find your arguments rather weak.

[discorat]

Kaladin/Shallan could go the Dalinar/Navani way - Shallan ends up with Adolin, knowing that Kaladin likes her, only for them to end up together when Adolin is dead maybe? (this would mean they'd end up together after the first five books).

But Kaladin definitely likes Shallan, as someone else said before, he was knee-wobbling looking at shallan after their time down the chasms.

Plus, something else we should consider is that Shallan already dislikes one part of Adolin, the protective part. My theory would be that Adolin, after killing Sadeas would end up in a bad place (mentally) and change as a person. Thats the only way i see Shallan leaving Adolin for Kaladin. 

 

Id love to see the story end with Kaladin having a crush on Shallan though, without Shallan knowing. That would be pretty sad though considering the things hes gone through. But i love tragic endings like that

[maxal]

20 hours ago, SLNC said:

Frankly, I find your arguments rather weak.

Everyone is entitled to their own opinions and everyone is entitled to phrased them, within the appropriate topic, to the best of their abilities. The arguments which were raised by @iamstick have been expressed by a non-negligible percentage of the fandom.

Yes, many do feel Kaladin isn't within the right place to entertain a lasting long-term relationship with a significant other. Reasons for it revolve around him being severely depressed which, having grown-up with a depressed sibling, is extraordinarily hard to process for most people, especially when the individual is not receiving the appropriate treatment. It takes rare human beings to be able to deal with this disease into a loved one as it is taxing and energy draining. Many feels Shallan does not have the personal outlook required to be this person as she has majorly shaped her life around her ability to react, to be pro-active and to not let adversity get to her. It is such a diametrical view than Kaladin it is hard to perceive they could ever find a middle ground nor that Shallan's ever lasting optimist wouldn't exacerbate Kaladin just as his endless pessimist wouldn't drained Shallan. Maybe it wouldn't, but many do not currently see it.

The other aspect of Kaladin's personality which many feels would get into the way of a successful relationship is the fact he is a workaholic solely focus on... his work. It is hard to picture him giving a relationship any level of attention needed to grow. So while yes, people can grow within relationships, they both have to give in something of their own, they have to work it up: relationships just do not entertain themselves merely by existing. Each partner needs to put in some their own into it and many feel Kaladin wouldn't be willing to compromise the work aspect of his life for a relationship. It maybe those perceptions are wrong, but the first two books haven't given much indications he would be amendable to it.

As for Syl, many feels she is more than a dog to Kaladin: she is not only his conscience, but his best friend, his closest confident. Her strongly disliking Shallan's spren is not a small deal as, unlike a pesky family member, Kaladin cannot dissociate himself from Syl: he has to live with her. The same is true for Shallan. How would this impact a potential relationship in between each other? We do not know yet, but I would rate it slightly higher on a scale from one to ten than one being a dog's person next to a cat's person.

So all in all, the points raised by @iamstick are valid. Does it mean Kaladin is an inept sociopath incapable of romance? No. It however means many feels right now may not be a moment in his life where Kaladin is able to dedicate enough personal time to make a relationship develop into something more meaningful and lasting. Does this bar romance? No. Not all romance has to end up in lasting relationships: Kaladin could have a fling with Shallan and then move on. An easy engagement free no strings attached relationship where partners engage into intimacy whenever they are available or whenever it is convenient might work out for him: it may be what Brandon has in mind, I cannot say. I however do not expect Kaladin to marry Shallan within the short term nor do I expect them to have a real husband/wife relationship where both partners factor each other within their decision making. Mind, it may be Shallan is unable to have it, even with Adolin, I also cannot say, but I currently do not envision Kaladin and Shallan having something solid enough to pass the test of time. Not yet. We'll see after the next book. 

20 hours ago, Discofrish said:

Kaladin/Shallan could go the Dalinar/Navani way - Shallan ends up with Adolin, knowing that Kaladin likes her, only for them to end up together when Adolin is dead maybe? (this would mean they'd end up together after the first five books).

Many feel the worst way to end a love triangle is to just kill off one member: it deprives the center component from having to actually make a decision. I say Shallan is a big girl, she can make up her mind as to whom she loves without having one die and/or turn evil.

20 hours ago, Discofrish said:

Plus, something else we should consider is that Shallan already dislikes one part of Adolin, the protective part. My theory would be that Adolin, after killing Sadeas would end up in a bad place (mentally) and change as a person. Thats the only way i see Shallan leaving Adolin for Kaladin. 

While it is true Adolin has come across as "protective" towards Shallan, it is hard to conceive Kaladin, who's major defining quality is being protective, wouldn't behave the same or worst. His entire being is geared towards protecting others, it seems reasonable to think he would attempt to over-shelter a loved one much more than Adolin who generally does what he thinks people want him to do. 

Obviously, killing Sadeas is a hardship Adolin will have to navigate through, but it seems a tad premature to say he would change in ways which would make him less of a person. Each character within this story has lived through hardships and all have grown out of them stronger, why should Adolin crumble apart? Why should he change in ways which are negative? Of course, it will be hard for him, harder perhaps than it was for others because he has much more to lose, because too much of his identity is linked towards how his father views him, but Adolin is a strong kid. I am sure he will find his strength.

I say, if Shallan does not want him, it won't be because of Sadeas, it will be because she just does not want him. After all, who wants Adolin? He's constantly rejected.

[Guest]

@maxal

Okay, this is probably going to be very rash and maybe even insulting, but at this point, I don't care anymore, as I'm constantly, purposely, misunderstood. And frankly, I'm getting a bit pissed off.

First, I never said, that @iamstick is not entitled to his/her opinions and, of course, is allowed to post them. I never said, that his/her arguments are invalid, I just argued about their strength. That is a big difference. And please. Stop putting words in my mouth. It's rude. The percentage of the fandom, who had raised the same arguments is completely irrelevant. Just because the bigger part of the bulk agrees on something, doesn't make it right - or even conveys a strong argument. At least in my eyes. Especially in something as subjective as fandom and shipping threads.

I won't even comment on the depression and workaholic thing anymore, because we have hashed and rehashed these points multiple times.

As for the dog/cat owner thing, it was a simile. There are pet owners, who form a very, very close bond to their pets. Yet, I have never heard of somebody dropping love for their pet. Like cat and dog, Pattern and Syl would just have to arrange themselves with it. As pets most of the time do, when their owners move together. Don't take it literally, it was just a simile. *sigh*

Edited July 14, 2017 by SLNC

[discorat]

3 hours ago, maxal said:

 

Many feel the worst way to end a love triangle is to just kill off one member: it deprives the center component from having to actually make a decision. I say Shallan is a big girl, she can make up her mind as to whom she loves without having one die and/or turn evil.

While it is true Adolin has come across as "protective" towards Shallan, it is hard to conceive Kaladin, who's major defining quality is being protective, wouldn't behave the same or worst. His entire being is geared towards protecting others, it seems reasonable to think he would attempt to over-shelter a loved one much more than Adolin who generally does what he thinks people want him to do. 

I say, if Shallan does not want him, it won't be because of Sadeas, it will be because she just does not want him. After all, who wants Adolin? He's constantly rejected.

Okay, you're right, which I'm happy about because i don't even like my own theories. And I didn't even think about how protective Kaladin is, so you're right about that too, but I feel like Adolin and Kaladin are protective in different ways? 

 

And my poor boy Adolin  

[Vissy]

Kaladin is definitely not protective in the same manner as Adolin. Mainly, I feel, because he understands just how little protection Shallan needs.

[discorat]

1 minute ago, Rob Lucci said:

Kaladin is definitely not protective in the same manner as Adolin. Mainly, I feel, because he understands just how little protection Shallan needs.

Nice point, I think it would be obvious if Kaladin was protective over Shallan like that - While Adolin is the ''you're not going to get even the tiniest scratch on you'' Kaladin is more ''just as long as you're not dead its fine''. Probably because Kaladin has a medical background and would know what to do if someone gets hurt- and hed know its not too serious either. Adolin might not understand just how tough Shallan is, and being overprotective like that can be slightly annoying.

[Guest]

12 minutes ago, Discofrish said:

Nice point, I think it would be obvious if Kaladin was protective over Shallan like that - While Adolin is the ''you're not going to get even the tiniest scratch on you'' Kaladin is more ''just as long as you're not dead its fine''. Probably because Kaladin has a medical background and would know what to do if someone gets hurt- and hed know its not too serious either. Adolin might not understand just how tough Shallan is, and being overprotective like that can be slightly annoying.

Plus all of this "Oh, storms. She smiled anyway."-stuff showed him how emotionally tough she is. He can understand, how broken she was or even still is, but also knows, that she has incredible toughness and doesn't need to be babysat. Both emotionally and physically. Shallan isn't afraid to get her hands dirty or someone, who cries at the slightest scratch.

Edited July 14, 2017 by SLNC

[Vissy]

Either way, Adolin has to grow as a character in order to really gain Shallan's love, in my opinion (if she hasn't already given it to somebody else, of course ). Overprotectiveness won't do.

Edited July 14, 2017 by Rob Lucci

[maxal]

16 hours ago, SLNC said:

@maxal

Okay, this is probably going to be very rash and maybe even insulting, but at this point, I don't care anymore, as I'm constantly, purposely, misunderstood. And frankly, I'm getting a bit pissed off.

First, I never said, that @iamstick is not entitled to his/her opinions and, of course, is allowed to post them. I never said, that his/her arguments are invalid, I just argued about their strength. That is a big difference. And please. Stop putting words in my mouth. It's rude. The percentage of the fandom, who had raised the same arguments is completely irrelevant. Just because the bigger part of the bulk agrees on something, doesn't make it right - or even conveys a strong argument. At least in my eyes. Especially in something as subjective as fandom and shipping threads.

I won't even comment on the depression and workaholic thing anymore, because we have hashed and rehashed these points multiple times.

As for the dog/cat owner thing, it was a simile. There are pet owners, who form a very, very close bond to their pets. Yet, I have never heard of somebody dropping love for their pet. Like cat and dog, Pattern and Syl would just have to arrange themselves with it. As pets most of the time do, when their owners move together. Don't take it literally, it was just a simile. *sigh*

I have debated all day as to how I should answer this. I was toyed with either downvoting it and/or reporting to the moderation (I did neither) because I do feel the threshold of decency has been trespassed here. This forums is meant for friendly and respectful discussion and while we may vehemently disagree, we still owe each other to be civil one towards the other. Whichever grievance you may have towards either my person or my posting or my argumentation, you can express it in a polite and respectful manner. Insults and personal attacks are not going to achieve anything but having this thread being closed for moderation. 

The reason I quoted this one sentence from your previous post was because I felt you went overboard with it. Saying someone's argumentation is weak without offering decent counter-arguments is the equivalent of the "talk to the hand because the rest won't listen" approach. I felt it was out of the place and it certainly didn't invite for further discussion. I was honestly flabbergast you would even say such a thing to someone merely offering his own personal opinion. It is why I took time to say we each were entitled to our own opinions and to voice them. I then offered polite and respectful additional arguments in order to strengthen the stance taken as this stance happens to be maintained by many.

You might not have said "you aren't entitled to your opinion", but the wording you choose to use to phrase your thoughts speaks differently. You might not realize it, it might not have been your personal intentions, but it was a rather aggressive way to respond to what essentially was a harmless post. It just wasn't nice.

So I am sorry you seem to think I am on a mission to discredit you, but the post I responded to was rude. I didn't mean to be rude towards your person, so I will apologize if I somehow was, but please, read back your post, read this one sentence and try to envision how you would feel had I (or someone else) used the same one in response to one of your posts.

Also, when you feel someone is misquoting you or misunderstanding you, offering clarifications works much better than lashing out. You could have just apologized for your post having conveyed the wrong information: nobody is misquoting anyone on purpose. Attacking me however is definitely out of line.

[Tesh]

I was with you at first, then I thought, Shallan needs someone less serious all the time to awnser her, um, interesting questions. And Kaladin needs someone less sarcastic, but not totally depressed either. He needs someone that can be happy and bubbly, (probably not the right word but, oh well). but also understands pain, sorrow, and can get him out of his depression. (Bad wording).

Or here are some things that are random, and probably won't happen. More like definitely won't happen. (I'd like what I said up there to come true).

1. Shallan, Kal, and Adolin all stay single till they die.

2. They all die before they can marry.

3. Shalladin, and Adolin dies of sadness.

4. Shadolin and Kaladin dies of laughter.

5. Szeth kills them all.

6. Awkward love triangle, Kal and Adolin duel (pillow duel) for Shallan's hand, (freehand) and they both die because they pull out their shardblades and stab each other at the exact same time because Shallan just died from laughing. 

Spoiler

I'm really bored.

Spoiler

And no, I do not want any of this to happen.

Spoiler

Well, 6 would make for an interesting scene...

Spoiler

As long as it didn't make it into the finished product of a book.

 

Edited July 15, 2017 by Tesh Kholin

[Sami]

2 hours ago, Tesh Kholin said:

Shallan needs someone less serious all the time to anwser her, um, interesting questions.

Less serious? I feel like she needs someone to bring her more down-to-earth and bring out her more mature serious side. 

2 hours ago, Tesh Kholin said:

 And Kaladin needs someone less sarcastic, but not totally depressed either. He needs someone that can be happy and bubbly, (probably not the right word but, oh well). but also understands pain, sorrow, and can get him out of his depression. (Bad wording).

Isn't that exactly what Shallan is?

[Guest]

@maxal

Might contain sarcasm.

First of all, I have nothing against your person. I can't since I don't know you. Though I do sometimes have the feeling of getting antagonized. Call it a inferiority complex, I don't care.

You say, that I don't give counter-arguments, when I actually did. I quoted the passages and commented on them, presenting my opinion on it, giving explainations on why I think like that.

You say, that I use an aggressive tone. I think, that I don't. I am simply being curt. Maybe, that is me being German, but please don't read too much between the lines. There always is some truth to prejudices after all. Us being rude and all.

Conclusively, everyone is entitled to their opinions and I won't apologize for expressing mine. My main issue is, that you laid out my post in a way, that implies, that I tried to invalidate @iamstick which is something, that I never tried to do. It never was my intention to shut him or her up.

You told me, that I should think about how I would feel if someone told me, that he finds my arguments rather weak. I would try to strengthen them. But there is something, that I can't stand and that is twisting someone's tongue. Which is why I reacted like I reacted. I'm sorry if I offended you. Same goes for @iamstick who apparently didn't think my response too indecent.

Back to the topic at hand.

Edited July 15, 2017 by SLNC

[Tesh]

@Sami OK. I agree with what you said, (but Shallan is quite sarcastic. And everyone knows Kaladin doesn't have the best patience with those things) but I don't want to edit my last post, so everyone take note, I agree with @Sami!

[maxal]

@SLNC: Thank you for explaining the personal context of your posts. It does help me understand you better which, I'll admit, I have been struggling to do so within the few past weeks. I am obviously not German, but I am French, well, I am a French Canadian (you can guess my time zone and my cultural references are more American than European), so perhaps you and I just are a bad mix  We are terribly outspoken people known for being mentally direct, emotive and complaining kind of is our national sport, well sort of, which I gathered from past conversations with other German people is highly frown upon on your side. 

In shorts, we are big, big, big talkers and among my people, I am terribly outspoken. And flowery. I am terribly flowery. If I were to write in French, it would be terrible 

The problem I had was the intonation of some of your posts comes across as rude and this last one, I felt it was unkind. I understand better it wasn't your intentions (I ended up figuring it probably wasn't because it kept on happening on various subjects) and while it was unfair of me to say you didn't offer any counter-arguments, I felt those you offered were... well you said it.. curt. And it may be I have a hard time with curt. Now I know you aren't responding this way to be aggressive nor sarcastic, I will be better able to evaluate your answers and gloss over the huh curt factor. Just as some people think I am being condescending  (which likely is a combination of myself being very outspoken and very affirmative), I ended up thinking you were purposefully being rude and unkind.

With my post I meant to make you realize this last sentence does read as if you were trying to invalidate @iamstick. I understand better it wasn't your intentions and it may be had someone said the same to you, you would merely try to write better arguments, but other people would react in an opposite manner which is why I feel we have to be careful at how we phrase our thoughts (and trust me I had a lot of issues with this upon my first year on the forum). If it had been one of my personal posts, I would have reacted much much more strongly. What you meant as an invitation to further develop one's thought, I read it as an aggression. It is hard without visual support to truly know the extend of our thoughts, written support being mostly imperfect.

This being said, I apologize for the drama and for having attacked you. I am glad we had this conversation as truth is, it has been nagging me for a while. Now all cards have been laid onto the table: I am condescending, you are curt. There is no need to read more than intended in between the lines of our respective posts. We can go back being on opposite sides without any of it feeling as if it were personal 

We can go back onto the intended topic.

Edited July 15, 2017 by maxal

[Guest]

26 minutes ago, maxal said:

There is no need to read more than intended in between the lines of our respective posts. We can go back being on opposite sides without any of it feeling as if it were personal 

I can more than live with that

I have nothing against you, we just have very different forms of expression

[maxal]

41 minutes ago, SLNC said:

I can more than live with that

I have nothing against you, we just have very different forms of expression

Yes and I am glad we got to clarify it. Now this "thing" in between us is gone, discussion will be more productive even if we vehemently disagree