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Kaladin and Shallan


Xaklys

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39 minutes ago, Everstorm Entropy said:

I don't think the death of one despicable man that was threatening the entire downfall of his family will weigh on him very much.  I don't think there is a "dark path" or a "right path".  Just different perspectives on how we should act.

Perfectly said. The morality of it does not even come into question. It's not like Adolin killed a saint.

Regarding consequences, Adolin killed a Highprice with a huge army. so, yeah, there would be consequences. 

 

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2 minutes ago, muco said:

Perfectly said. The morality of it does not even come into question. It's not like Adolin killed a saint.

Regarding consequences, Adolin killed a Highprice with a huge army. so, yeah, there would be consequences. 

 

You're certainly right; there will be consequences for his actions and it definitely depends on how he chooses to play it out.  Does he lie to everyone about it?  Does he confide in Shallan or Dalinar with the truth?  I'm most interested in finding out about the real world consequences for what he did.  I'm not very interested in this sending Adolin spiraling downward into a pit of self-loathing or even more murder.

I do think it'll lead to some conflict with Shallan and Kaladin though, considering their newfound Radiant status; I'm sure their opinions of what Adolin did will differ (if they find out).

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2 hours ago, muco said:

It was a fight and Sadeas lost his life. 

In fact Dalinar & Adolin not killing Sadeas after his betrayal is NOT the honorable thing. There is no honor in NOT fighting against injustice. what happened at that time was not honorable. 

If Adolin had let Sadeas live after what Sadeas said he would do, I would consider Adolin to be a coward and without Honor. 

Honor is not just about doing things legally. Honor is also about going against the law or norm when villains like Sadeas use law to shield themselves to kill thousands of people, divide kingdom etc. Where is the honor in letting a vermin live Sadeas live in the first place?

As I recall, through out book 2, Dalinar, Adolin & Kaladin were planning to murder Sadeas, legally. If that is honorable and acceptable, I fail to see how Adolin did is not.

I do agree that what Adolin did to Sadeas was something that Sadeas deserved, and I was so rooting for Adolin to actually kill him as I was reading that scene.

But I definitely don't think this was a fight at all. This was definitely cold-blooded murder (maybe not pre-meditated, but still). I may have to reread the scene at some point, but I don't remember Sadeas physically threatening Adolin's life at all. If he had, then it would've been self defense on Adolin's part and him killing Adolin would definitely be justified. What Adolin did, by reacting and brutally murdering Sadeas does not make it right, no matter how much Sadeas threatened him. If we all got to kill people simply because we disliked them or they did something we didn't like, then the world would fall apart and we'd end up just stooping to people like Sadeas's level.

Also, in the future, if you want to add something, try editing your previous post and don't double post (though I can understand why you did it with this one, as it doesn't let you edit in quotes, I don't think).

EDIT: I didn't even realize this went onto another page, whoops.

Edited by StrikerEZ
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9 minutes ago, StrikerEZ said:

I do agree that what Adolin did to Sadeas was something that Sadeas deserved, and I was so rooting for Adolin to actually kill him as I was reading that scene.

But I definitely don't think this was a fight at all. This was definitely cold-blooded murder (maybe not pre-meditated, but still). I may have to reread the scene at some point, but I don't remember Sadeas physically threatening Adolin's life at all. If he had, then it would've been self defense on Adolin's part and him killing Adolin would definitely be justified. What Adolin did, by reacting and brutally murdering Sadeas does not make it right, no matter how much Sadeas threatened him. If we all got to kill people simply because we disliked them or they did something we didn't like, then the world would fall apart and we'd end up just stooping to people like Sadeas's level.

Well said!!!! :D

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On 6/17/2017 at 9:15 PM, kari-no-sugata said:

...

Great analysis. I unfortunately do not have much to add to it. I'll keep you theory in mind for future speculations though.

23 hours ago, muco said:

For one that means Adolin needs to undergo a certain character change, which would be uncharacteristic of what he is in the first two books.

From my POV, Adolin the is one the most honorable characters written in the books, even more honorable than Kaladin. Adolin from a neutral POV, always did the honorable thing. He gave away shards he earned without any malice or to prove a point like Dalinar did in Book 1.

I think that too. My personal thoughts are Adolin's actions and contributions to the main narrative often are overlooked because, unlike other characters, he does not genuinely put himself into the spotlight. He does what he needs to do, but he does not expect retribution or even thanks nor nothing. Him giving away artifacts which are worth more than a kingdom to a darkeyed, true a honorable darkeyed whom saved his life (and his brother, it is more important to Adolin Kaladin saved Renarin than himself), but a darkeyed nonetheless. I would truly love to find out how many times this has happened throughout the course of Alethkar's history. Considering how few are the darkeyes which became Sahrdbearers, I would think if one distinguished himself high enough to be given Shards, freely, his name would have been remembered. It is thus, it may very well be Adolin is the very first lighteye to spontaneously offer Shards to a darkeyes in retribution for outstanding service.

Many readers praise Dalinar for having given up Oathbringer to secure Kaladin's men's future. It was admirable, but I find Adolin's gesture more significant because he did not expect anything in return except perhaps... friendship?

21 hours ago, Edgedancer81 said:

For one, it wasn't a straight up fight, it was a murder in cold blood (well, kinda cold blood).

Adolin murdering Sadeas was many things, but it wasn't cold blooded murder. By definition, "cold-blooded" implies a lack of emotions: we can all agree Adolin definitely was within the gripes of very strong emotions, so strong he couldn't contain them. Adolin did not execute a death sentence while being completely devoid of human emotions: he blew out. All of those feelings he had bottled up for so long surfaced and he just snapped. 

Thus, it wasn't cold-blooded murder. It was murder, but not done while having cold blood.

12 hours ago, Edgedancer81 said:

No, but the action was not honourable and will have long-lasting consequences regardless of how much things got out of hand and how much Sadeas deserved it.

But what is honorable? Is it more honorable to allowed a man having promised he would kill your family, rage war to your princedom and not care how many innocents he has to kill to get there while perfectly knowing he has the means to pull it off to just walk away than it is to take it upon yourself to remove him as delaying would cause greater prejudice than one murder? Dalinar loves to pride himself into being righteous and he very well might be, but if his men die because he refuses to take action against a known thread, then hasn't he crossed over a threshold? Is it honorable to watch horror unfold, knowing you can stop it, but refusing to do so because the scope of events does not allow you to do so while the king gives you open justification?

This being said, Adolin murdering Sadeas would probably not be considered honorable because of the sudden aspect of it, but it does not make it wrong. Consequences for allowing Sadeas to live were probably far worst than consequences for having killed him. Still, it is rather sad Adolin has to assume the full cost of what essentially remains Dalinar's mistake.

4 hours ago, Everstorm Entropy said:

I love how this topic is almost a year old and still going strong with speculation.  

Brace yourself, this has been going on for more than three years :ph34r: This hardly is the first nor the only topic were we discussed those events.

3 hours ago, muco said:

It was a straight up fight between 2 individuals. That Adolin overpowered Sadeas does not make it an unfair fight. 

It's not like Adolin snuck up on Sadeas and back stabbed him. It was close quarters fist fight that ended up with Sadeas being dead. As I recall, it's a very Alethi way of doing things.

Any fight between Adolin & Sadeas whether in that isolated place in Urithru or in front of thousands of people in Areas would not have been a balanced fight. What would have happened if the plan went perfectly and Adolin got Sadeas in the Arena? Yes - Murder of Sadeas. Because it did not happen in an area and a shardblade was not involved, does not make murder of any less of a straight up fight. Murder - yes, definitely and it would still have been a murder if it happened as per the original plan in the arena, simply by fact that Dalinar & Adolin planned it .

I don't see how one goes near a bear, poke it , get killed and complain about not being a straight up fight!

Sadeas wanted a fight. He just didn't expect Adolin to take him on his word and act then and there. If Sadeas was more powerful or had age on his side, it would have been him alive and Adolin dead.

Once we remove the surprise aspect out of the fight, it was relatively even. Yes, Adolin is younger, but he is injured (broken arm someone?). Yes, Sadeas is older, but he has more than 30 years of experience fighting, he remains strong and well... his arm is not broken. It was a near thing too: Sadeas could have very well over-powered Adolin, so in essence both parties had a chance to win it which makes more or less even, baring the surprise effect which didn't last long.

I think the different in between killing while dueling and killing within a surprise attack is, within the first case, the opponent agreed to the fight. The problem is Sadeas never agreed to fight Adolin: had the plan unfolded as planned, Sadeas would have been forced to fight Adolin. How is forcing Sadeas to enter the dueling ring and fight Adolin fairer than having Adolin force him to fight him within a tunnel? I say the difference is not so great: in both cases, Sadeas does not initiate nor want the physical fight.

I would however point out murdering your enemies isn't the Alethi way. I think we have a WoB on this which explains how the "honorable" way to remove an adversary is to duel him and/or kill him within a battle: not send assassins or ambush him. In regards to this WoB, Adolin's actions are wrong and dishonorable, but this only when evaluated against those criteria. We also know there will be people who will think what Adolin did is wrong, totally wrong.

3 hours ago, muco said:

In fact Dalinar & Adolin not killing Sadeas after his betrayal is NOT the honorable thing. There is no honor in NOT fighting against injustice. what happened at that time was not honorable. 

Presumably, there were other ways to deal with Sadeas, at the time. Dalinar was rightly worried about civil war in between his princedom and Sadeas's which he wanted to avoid as his army had lost too many soldiers. Arguably, these were very good reasons to try to treat Sadeas with delicacy. The ploy to have duel Adolin wasn't a bad one: it backfired and failed, but the idea behind it was sound. It gave the Kholins a legal means to remove a dangerous opponent without fearing retribution nor civil war. Unfortunately, by the time Sadeas gloat to Adolin within the darkness of Urithiru, the Kholins have no more plans to deal with him. This absence of a plan, this void when it comes to how they should treat him certainly is responsible for Adolin snapping.

It is however hard to blame it on anyone: they never had the time to make new plans, but it is reasonable to assume Dalinar would have felt the same reluctance at dealing with Sadeas as he did before. I wouldn't be surprise to see him mourn the man.... :o

35 minutes ago, StrikerEZ said:

If he had, then it would've been self defense on Adolin's part and him killing Adolin would definitely be justified. What Adolin did, by reacting and brutally murdering Sadeas does not make it right, no matter how much Sadeas threatened him.

Has Sadeas been anyone else, I would agree with you, but given all the man has done, given he did not shy for slaughtering 6000 men, given he did try to have Dalinar assassinated (and we seldom talk of the people crossing the bridge which did die for it), given he had outright said he would kill the king (which is high treason), given he did stipulate nothing and nobody would ever make him change his mind, given he proved he had no redeeming side, I would argue it does mitigate Adolin's actions. He didn't just kill a man because he disliked him: he killed a powerful antagonist, an enemy of not only his family, but his country and a man which has weaseled out of justice. 

Thus had it been someone else, my reasoning would have been totally different, but the fact it was Sadeas combined with the man's confessions (both in Urithiru and within the storm cellar) does make it justified. Perhaps not legal, but certainly not a cold-blooded perfectly executed murder for dubious reasons.

 

 

Edited by maxal
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2 minutes ago, maxal said:

Many readers praise Dalinar for having given up Oathbringer to secure Kaladin's men's future. It was admirable, but I find Adolin's gesture more significant because he did not expect anything in return except perhaps... friendship?

Hmmm yes except that Dalinar gave away his own and only shards while (if I recall correctly) what Adolin gave away was one of his spare sets.

4 minutes ago, maxal said:

But what is honorable? Is it more honorable to allowed a man having promised he would kill your family, rage war to your princedom and not care how many innocents he has to kill to get there while perfectly knowing he has the means to pull it off to just walk away than it is to take it upon yourself to remove him as delaying would cause greater prejudice than one murder? Dalinar loves to pride himself into being righteous and he very well might be, but if his men die because he refuses to take action against a known thread, then hasn't he crossed over a threshold? Is it honorable to watch horror unfold, knowing you can stop it, but refusing to do so because the scope of events does not allow you to do so while the king gives you open justification?

This being said, Adolin murdering Sadeas would probably not be considered honorable because of the sudden aspect of it, but it does not make it wrong. Consequences for allowing Sadeas to live were probably far worst than consequences for having killed him. Still, it is rather sad Adolin has to assume the full cost of what essentially remains Dalinar's mistake.

Good point. 

I fully agree that Sadeas should have been dealt with earlier; I just don't agree with exactly how it was done. Also, wouldn't it be more Elokhar's shortcomings rather than Dalinar's?

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Just now, Edgedancer81 said:

Hmmm yes except that Dalinar gave away his own and only shards while (if I recall correctly) what Adolin gave away was one of his spare sets.

Yes, but Dalinar has been thinking of giving up fighting and warfare. Giving up his Shards merely was the next move he had to do to complete his change: the fact he could do it and have an impact was a bonus. He might have given them even without Kaladin's men in tow.

Adolin might not have given out his own Shards, but he did give Kaladin the highest honor he could give him. He didn't have too. Kaladin himself did not expect it nor wish it.

3 minutes ago, Edgedancer81 said:

Hmmm yes except that Dalinar gave away his own and only shards while (if I recall correctly) what Adolin gave away was one of his spare sets.

Good point. 

I fully agree that Sadeas should have been dealt with earlier; I just don't agree with exactly how it was done. Also, wouldn't it be more Elokhar's shortcomings rather than Dalinar's?

Was it Elhokar or Dalinar's shortcomings? I would say both.

As the king, Elhokar should have taken actions against Sadeas, but he couldn't do so without fearing breaking the kingdom. We must keep in mind half of the Highprinces were supporting Sadeas: prosecuting him might have cause an irreparable rift within the unity. Had he been a stronger ruler, he might have been able to do something, but he isn't. 

As the Highprince and the real "ruler" of Alethkar, Dalinar could have enforced stronger actions, but he too was faced with problems. He couldn't risk a civil war in between his princedom and Sadeas's. Thus, he had to go for the more complicated and hard to accomplish ploy.

All in all, the original plan wasn't a bad one: it dealt with the issue without causing repercussions. It was however highly risky, especially to Adolin. It relied on him and while he delivered, it backfired on him. Sure he is partly responsible for it, but so are Shallan, Navani and Dalinar for falling to see the loophole.

Where I place fault is for having Dalinar not have made additional plans to remove Sadeas after the assassination attempt. Sadeas was dropped as a subject, nothing was done. Arguably, they had other things on their mind, but it might have indirectly cause Adolin's break down.

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28 minutes ago, maxal said:

Has Sadeas been anyone else, I would agree with you, but given all the man has done, given he did not shy for slaughtering 6000 men, given he did try to have Dalinar assassinated (and we seldom talk of the people crossing the bridge which did die for it), given he had outright said he would kill the king (which is high treason), given he did stipulate nothing and nobody would ever make him change his mind, given he proved he had no redeeming side, I would argue it does mitigate Adolin's actions. He didn't just kill a man because he disliked him: he killed a powerful antagonist, an enemy of not only his family, but his country and a man which has weaseled out of justice. 

Thus had it been someone else, my reasoning would have been totally different, but the fact it was Sadeas combined with the man's confessions (both in Urithiru and within the storm cellar) does make it justified. Perhaps not legal, but certainly not a cold-blooded perfectly executed murder for dubious reasons.

Yeah...I do agree Sadeas deserved to die way earlier than he did within the books, and I'm so glad that Adolin finally had the balls to do it, regardless of the consequences. But I still don't think it was right. In my opinion, killing is never right, not even when the person you kill has killed people (even if it was a lot of people). This has always been a pet peeve of mine. Authors tend to downplay killing, even if it's in a fight between people, and both sides are willing to kill the other. Especially in wars and brutal fights. Killing should never be an option. The moment you decide the best way to solve a problem is by killing someone, that crosses a line in my book. No one deserves death, no matter how despicable they are. They deserve to rot in prison for the rest of their lives. Sadly, I think that in our world (mainly wars and stuff) killing is seen at least as a last resort option. 

Now, when it's self defense, as in someone is threatening you or someone else's life, you should do whatever you can to prevent that person from killing anyone. If that results in them dying...I'm not sure how I feel about that. I definitely don't think they should've died, but it's better than just letting them kill you.

Sorry for getting sidetracked there, I just feel very strongly about killing and I probably didn't make very much sense in this post. I forgot what my main point even was.

EDIT: severely ninja'd

Edited by StrikerEZ
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7 minutes ago, StrikerEZ said:

Yeah...I do agree Sadeas deserved to die way earlier than he did within the books, and I'm so glad that Adolin finally had the balls to do it, regardless of the consequences. But I still don't think it was right. In my opinion, killing is never right, not even when the person you kill has killed people (even if it was a lot of people). This has always been a pet peeve of mine. Authors tend to downplay killing, even if it's in a fight between people, and both sides are willing to kill the other. Especially in wars and brutal fights. Killing should never be an option. The moment you decide the best way to solve a problem is by killing someone, that crosses a line in my book. No one deserves death, no matter how despicable they are. They deserve to rot in prison for the rest of their lives. Sadly, I think that in our world (mainly wars and stuff) killing is seen at least as a last resort option. 

Now, when it's self defense, as in someone is threatening you or someone else's life, you should do whatever you can to prevent that person from killing anyone. If that results in them dying...I'm not sure how I feel about that. I definitely don't think they should've died, but it's better than just letting them kill you.

Sorry for getting sidetracked there, I just feel very strongly about killing and I probably didn't make very much sense in this post. I forgot what my main point even was.

EDIT: severely ninja'd

Oh I do understand your point and it does make sense. I do support the idea killing is bad and should never be used as a solution. This is a very valid take and I definitely prefer the "rot in prison for eternity" solution. My issues are it seems they had no way to deal with Sadeas legally. This is where my thoughts are shifting: what else were they suppose to do? Apart from nothing, which could have become a greater problem than the killing, I see little which could have realistically be done.

This being said, I do think you are making a valid stance, it just seems complicated, maybe impossible, to maintain within the world of Roshar.

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3 minutes ago, maxal said:

Oh I do understand your point and it does make sense. I do support the idea killing is bad and should never be used as a solution. This is a very valid take and I definitely prefer the "rot in prison for eternity" solution. My issues are it seems they had no way to deal with Sadeas legally. This is where my thoughts are shifting: what else were they suppose to do? Apart from nothing, which could have become a greater problem than the killing, I see little which could have realistically be done.

This being said, I do think you are making a valid stance, it just seems complicated, maybe impossible, to maintain within the world of Roshar.

Yeah, I gotcha. I do agree the situation with Sadeas was very tricky. I both like and don't like how it was solved.

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16 minutes ago, StrikerEZ said:

Yeah, I gotcha. I do agree the situation with Sadeas was very tricky. I both like and don't like how it was solved.

Problem is Adolin was dealt a bad situation where there were no right solutions. Killing Sadeas wasn't entirely right for all of the reasons mentioned above, but letting him walk away also came with so many consequences it couldn't have been an entirely "right" choice either. Whichever way Adolin chose, blood would have fallen onto his hands, sooner or later. 

No other characters were put into such difficult situations: all had a clear and obvious right choice path in front of them. I may not entirely like how the murder was dealt with, but I love the fact Brandon wrote it.

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2 hours ago, maxal said:

Killing Sadeas wasn't entirely right for all of the reasons mentioned above, but letting him walk away also came with so many consequences it couldn't have been an entirely "right" choice either. Whichever way Adolin chose, blood would have fallen onto his hands, sooner or later. 

Very true.

Contrary to popular opinion that Adolin was rash there, I believe he was very calculated. The dialogues and the actions of Adolin at that point was not of an unbalanced man. There was clarity to the rage displayed by Adolin.

He knew what needed to be done and did it. 

 

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3 hours ago, StrikerEZ said:

If we all got to kill people simply because we disliked them or they did something we didn't like, then the world would fall apart and we'd end up just stooping to people like Sadeas's level.

The difference here is that Sadeas did already kill thousands of Adolin's men, so, it was not just a threat at that point.

It's like a serial killer bragging to his victim about how easily he killed the victims friends and how he would kill his family next. That is the correct context here.

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10 hours ago, Everstorm Entropy said:

I do think it'll lead to some conflict with Shallan and Kaladin though, considering their newfound Radiant status; I'm sure their opinions of what Adolin did will differ (if they find out).

I'm not so sure about that. I think both are positive, that Sadeas was an cremhole and deserved to die. Maybe Kaladin will get a cussing out by Syl for that, but I don't think anything else will happen.

 

4 hours ago, muco said:

It's like a serial killer bragging to his victim about how easily he killed the victims friends and how he would kill his family next. That is the correct context here.

And I completely agree, that that is why Adolin snapped, but I still don't think it was completely right, since killing is never right, and I still think it was far from honorable. Especially, since Adolin was armed and the fight never was on equal footing. (He pulled his side knife to stab Sadeas' face. It never was a pure fist fight.)

It's not like I condemn Adolin's actions, because, like @maxal said, blood would have fallen on his hands sooner or later, I just don't deem them honorable.

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5 hours ago, muco said:

Contrary to popular opinion that Adolin was rash there, I believe he was very calculated. The dialogues and the actions of Adolin at that point was not of an unbalanced man. There was clarity to the rage displayed by Adolin.

He knew what needed to be done and did it. 

I don't think that he was very calculated. In the book it says something about "two men on the ground driven to a panic". I don't have my book right now, so I can't check; but to me it looks like Sadeas came at an insecure moment and prodded Adolin over the edge.

 

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8 hours ago, muco said:

Very true.

Contrary to popular opinion that Adolin was rash there, I believe he was very calculated. The dialogues and the actions of Adolin at that point was not of an unbalanced man. There was clarity to the rage displayed by Adolin.

He knew what needed to be done and did it. 

I don't think it was calculated either. He snaps, then he feels pure rage, white hot anger which drives him through the fight: without it, he would have never done it, he would have never overcome his personal inhibitions at actually doing the deed. After the fight is over, Adolin speaks of his thoughts coming back to himself. I will then argue he goes into shock right after, he moves as if through a daze, clearly he is shocked by what he did (not pleased, completely horrified as if he didn't realize he was killing Sadeas until he saw the body), he tried to cover it up (the natural reaction after a strong shock is denial, refusal to admit it happens which often leads to hiding the clues, like the kid which hits the broken sections of a pot to avoid facing retribution, but would later tell the truth), but his moves sound mechanical, with no coherent though nor link in between them. 

I personally think the scene has a few common point with the "flight or fight" response some people sometimes go through. There is a biological rational which states, once the brain think itself into sharp danger, it will short-circuit all rational thinking in order to give control to its reactive side. It is how some people, when faced with danger, do thinks they never thought they could do nor they would have never done. Most speak of rage, anger fueled by a deed fear and also a clarity, like knowing exactly what has to happen, which I think might have happened to Adolin. His plate was already filled, at this point in time, we see him having many fears throughout the books, but he always hides them, he never voices them: it became too much for him, so he snapped.

These are my two cents on the scene anyway.

4 hours ago, SLNC said:

And I completely agree, that that is why Adolin snapped, but I still don't think it was completely right, since killing is never right, and I still think it was far from honorable. Especially, since Adolin was armed and the fight never was on equal footing. (He pulled his side knife to stab Sadeas' face. It never was a pure fist fight.)

It's not like I condemn Adolin's actions, because, like @maxal said, blood would have fallen on his hands sooner or later, I just don't deem them honorable.

The problem with defending the "killing is never right" line is basically everyone in book have killed: many have killed for lesser reasons than Adolin, many are guilty of incredibly dishonorable actions which aren't even up for grab to interpretation. For instance, there is... young Dalinar did... which makes Adolin kill Sadeas sound like a boy merely pushing a bigger bully onto the ground. Thus, each time I try to evaluate the scene from the "murder is never right angle", which actually is the position I would personally defend within real-life, I am faced with the fact every single other character did kill. So why should I condemn Adolin, why should I think what he did is less honorable, when I am reading characters such as Dalinar, Shallan and Jasnah which have all been transformed into heroes/Radiants, despite their actions?

58 minutes ago, Edgedancer81 said:

I don't think that he was very calculated. In the book it says something about "two men on the ground driven to a panic". I don't have my book right now, so I can't check; but to me it looks like Sadeas came at an insecure moment and prodded Adolin over the edge.

Actually, Adolin's initial reaction was to walk away, to ignore Sadeas, but the man forces him to listen to his taunting. Also, Adolin was vulnerable and insecure at the moment. He had just walked into a legendary lost city taken straight out of legends while being faced with the fact his fiance now is a Radiant which ranks higher than he does. He faced foes he could beat and received the confirmation he just cannot hold his own against surgebinders. Suddenly, he isn't sure about whom he is, where he stands and where he ought to go next. One thing I have tried to argument about, when it comes to Adolin, is how he does not enjoy new things, abnormal things, out-of-the-ordinary things, worst he fears them. He fears what he cannot control, what he cannot explain, what he cannot predict nor faced with a precise set of skills. Arguably, once he acquire the set of skills require to face a previously unknown situation, his fear vanishes or diminishes, but in the mean time, he can be quite insecure. Right before meeting Sadeas, we were reading insecure Adolin, injured Adolin and probably tired Adolin (does he ever rest?), so yes, giving this, it is hardly surprising Sadeas threw him over the edge.

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Don't you love seeing another relatively unrelated thread find its way to "Was Adolin right in killing Sadeas" :wub:. Maybe OP should edit the title to "Kaladin and Shallan: Adolin's actions". Not complaining here!

I think that harsh as it may be to accept, you can't always do the honorable path. As was pointed out in WoK, that only works when the other people are also honorable, or alternatively when you are the biggest power so can lay down the law. This is a case where, diplomacy failed, ignoring the problem failed, justice failed, legality failed. There was not a single other option, other than Adoling killing him, or sending assasins to do it for him (which ironically would likely have been considered more legal in Alethkar, yet I imagine almost everyone here, including me, would see as darker). 

I'm also quite bloodthirsty, but if the options are killing a man or watching your men or family harmed, or die in the future I would pick option one in a heartbeat. I think maxal said above that some people strike out when they are cornered or afraid, and I agree and think this is part of what happened to Adolin. He had no options left to get rid of a threat to his family, and at this core protecting his family is what makes him tick. Some people are arguing that it was almost premeditated, others that it was a rage. It just seemed like cold rage. In this state you can think and what you do seems coldly rational, but you are still as little in control of yourself as in a hot rage. In my opinion cold rage is a lot more dangerous than hot rage, as it often kicks the ability to think into hyperdrive, while normal rage is usually pure instinct, 

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43 minutes ago, WhiteLeeopard said:

Don't you love seeing another relatively unrelated thread find its way to "Was Adolin right in killing Sadeas" :wub:. Maybe OP should edit the title to "Kaladin and Shallan: Adolin's actions". Not complaining here!

There is a known fact within the Stormlight Archive sub forum: allow any discussion to run long enough and you are sure it will end up talking about Adolin :ph34r: Some refer to it as the "Adolin rule". One thing I would die to ask Brandon is if he foresaw his readers would talk so much about the character and his actions as they ended up doing. Did he expect it would catch on as strongly as it did?

45 minutes ago, WhiteLeeopard said:

I think that harsh as it may be to accept, you can't always do the honorable path. As was pointed out in WoK, that only works when the other people are also honorable, or alternatively when you are the biggest power so can lay down the law. This is a case where, diplomacy failed, ignoring the problem failed, justice failed, legality failed. There was not a single other option, other than Adoling killing him, or sending assasins to do it for him (which ironically would likely have been considered more legal in Alethkar, yet I imagine almost everyone here, including me, would see as darker). 

Walking the honorable path is much more easy when you live within the modern day world and being too honorable might cost you nothing more than a promotion or an advantage. It hardly ever resumes itself into people dying, especially not people you are close too. Also, it often is easier to remain stuck onto your high principles, never second guessing them, then to take direct action. Whether or not we agree or not over Adolin murdering Sadeas, one thing is clear to me: he took the hardest path for himself. The overall consequences, for Alethkar and its people, might be lesser with Sadeas dead than alive, but the consequences to Adolin will be worst. He took it all upon himself: protecting his family, enforcing his father's dream (even if it means him becoming irrelevant and useless), protecting his people/soldiers: he decided he had to be strong, always and thus by killing Sadeas he made sure nobody else would ever suffer for the weasel. Everyone except himself: that too he took it upon himself.

I so love Adolin because he always takes the lesser walked path, he always choose what is right independently of the cost to pay for his person. He does so and he never expects to even be thanked for it: he just does it, not because it brings him glory, not to be viewed as a hero, but because it just was the right action to take. I have always find the duality in between the over-confident sometimes boosting Adolin others usually see and the insecure filled with self-doubt young man he hides inside to be fascinating. No other character has generate such detailed discussion.

57 minutes ago, WhiteLeeopard said:

I'm also quite bloodthirsty, but if the options are killing a man or watching your men or family harmed, or die in the future I would pick option one in a heartbeat. I think maxal said above that some people strike out when they are cornered or afraid, and I agree and think this is part of what happened to Adolin. He had no options left to get rid of a threat to his family, and at this core protecting his family is what makes him tick. Some people are arguing that it was almost premeditated, others that it was a rage. It just seemed like cold rage. In this state you can think and what you do seems coldly rational, but you are still as little in control of yourself as in a hot rage. In my opinion cold rage is a lot more dangerous than hot rage, as it often kicks the ability to think into hyperdrive, while normal rage is usually pure instinct, 

I do think what happened to Adolin is dangerous, not because it might plunge him into an evil arc nor because it makes him a better vessel for Odium, but because there is a side of him he does not control well. He is very emotive, scenes from Oathbringer show a sensitive young man, but he never allows himself the freedom to express those emotions. Everything is about being strong, about being the pillar of the family, about never faltering: I just can't help but think Adolin will hit a wall.

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18 hours ago, Edgedancer81 said:

I don't think that he was very calculated. In the book it says something about "two men on the ground driven to a panic". I don't have my book right now, so I can't check; but to me it looks like Sadeas came at an insecure moment and prodded Adolin over the edge.

 

I reread the passage yesterday and yes, it was exactly like that.

 

16 hours ago, maxal said:

So why should I condemn Adolin, why should I think what he did is less honorable, when I am reading characters such as Dalinar, Shallan and Jasnah which have all been transformed into heroes/Radiants, despite their actions?

Firstly, I think saying, that every Radiant is a hero is a bit easy. They are much more nuanced, plus being honorable is not a prerequisite to be heroic. Actually it's quite the opposite at times. Secondly, I think, that the spren don't always have the best choices available. They have to work with what they have, so they choose the ones, that they think will be the best Radiants, despite their shortcomings.

I never truly believed Dalinar to be honorable, he is trying, but his past is in the way. The only character I truly believe to be honorable is Kaladin, but even he had faltered, plotting to kill Elhokar and thus losing Syl for that time.

Conclusively, I don't think, that honor is a prerequisite to become a Radiant. All you need is a spren, who chooses you. And then you have to uphold your oaths.

Also, I never said, that I condemn Adolin's actions at the end of WoR. I just said, that it wasn't honorable, which also doesn't mean, that Adolin doesn't have the capability for honor, which some seem to extrapolate out of my statement. I just think, that it isn't honorable to kill someone in rage and, that it was a first step in the direction of the Blackthorn. Adolin will have to be careful.

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6 hours ago, SLNC said:

Firstly, I think saying, that every Radiant is a hero is a bit easy. They are much more nuanced, plus being honorable is not a prerequisite to be heroic. Actually it's quite the opposite at times. Secondly, I think, that the spren don't always have the best choices available. They have to work with what they have, so they choose the ones, that they think will be the best Radiants, despite their shortcomings.

I never truly believed Dalinar to be honorable, he is trying, but his past is in the way. The only character I truly believe to be honorable is Kaladin, but even he had faltered, plotting to kill Elhokar and thus losing Syl for that time.

Conclusively, I don't think, that honor is a prerequisite to become a Radiant. All you need is a spren, who chooses you. And then you have to uphold your oaths.

One of my theories, if theories we can call it, is the Radiants weren't always heroes. The fact a despicable human being such as Gavilar could have been on his way to become one sincerely illustrates how badly sprens might choose their knights. There are looking from a precise set of characteristics, but I fear they might ignore the whole persona. Sure, Gavilar was trying to "unite", but the ways he chose to do so were beyond despicable and definitely unfitting for a "hero".

Dalinar is a hard one to judge: having read The Thrill, I can say without a doubt he absolutely does not deserve to be a Radiant. His past actions are so horrific he shouldn't be able to redeem himself from them, especially since he never paid any price for them. He just put them past him, but he never had to actually offer any retribution for them. Yes, he attempting at being a good man, an honorable man, but is rigidity make him more of a tyrant than a real leader. Needless to say it will be very interesting to see him evolve within Oathbringer. How hard will he go on his own son considering all the wrongs he has done in the past? Will he dare punish Adolin harshly when he walked away from his own actions unscathed? 

I also agree Kaladin is the only truly honorable character even if he falters.

As far as we can tell, honor definitely not a prerequisite. I was mostly reacting to the general idea, which I often read elsewhere not necessarily here, wanting Adolin murdering Sadeas was so despicable the character has no other options but to fall prey to Odium, to become his champion and well to turn into an antagonist. While nobody has expressed those thoughts within this thread, I read them so often, I always feel I need to emphasis how what Adolin did truly isn't that terrible, especially not when all factors are weighted in, especially not when considering what other characters did. 

6 hours ago, SLNC said:

Also, I never said, that I condemn Adolin's actions at the end of WoR. I just said, that it wasn't honorable, which also doesn't mean, that Adolin doesn't have the capability for honor, which some seem to extrapolate out of my statement. I just think, that it isn't honorable to kill someone in rage and, that it was a first step in the direction of the Blackthorn. Adolin will have to be careful.

I wasn't extrapolating on your statement, I was agreeing with it and supplementing it :) It isn't entirely honorable but, from my perspective, being honorable is being over-stated. How many times someone pops in to state Adolin is a dishonorable jerk for killing an antagonist and will plunge towards evil? You obviously have not stated such thing, I was not responding to you, but to those whom might have read those discussions, whom might be on the fence as I do think summarizing Adolin's character as "evil in becoming because he killed while Kaladin, the hero, didn't" is terribly reducing. 

This being said, is it the first step towards becoming the Blackthorn? I am not so sure, not after reading The Thrill and seeing who the Blackthorn truly was... It wasn't the rage nor the anger which made him a force to be reckoned with, it was his complete lack of inhibition onto the battlefield. He followed no rules, no orders, he has no honor. He would rush towards the battle not caring about the collateral damage done to his men, he would kill whichever stand in between him and his very personal goals. He warred to take stuff from other people because having more stuff was great, but more importantly, Dalinar wanted to kill, he wanted to shed blood. He lived only for battles and the downtime in between them was torture.

This was the Blackthorn, so once I read this, I cannot support anymore the idea Adolin might be on his way to become this man. Adolin has inhibitions, he does not fight for personal gains, he does not care about personal gains. He doesn't enjoy the warfare, he doesn't live for the battle: he has no desire to shed blood nor to kill, but yes he has strong emotions which he does not control all too well. He has yet to learn how evacuate them in a positive manner. Also, Adolin is surprisingly cold and leveled headed whenever he is fighting which is exactly the opposite of the Blackthorn. The Blackthorn was no strategist, he has no strategy but to hit and kill.

I thus say, emotional or no, Adolin doesn't have it in him to be the Blackthorn. Sure, he can win impossible fights which is why Sadeas says he might grow into his father's shoes, precisely because Dalinar once won impossible fights, but this was dueling, not warfare. Even when wrapped into the Thrill, Adolin never even comes close to reaching his father former level of badassery. 

However, it may be other characters will think Adolin is indeed filling out those shoes and it may be Dalinar will go harder on him for it. One thing which has always come to mind, when it comes to Dalinar, is how he isn't getting his own son: he keeps thinking of him as a younger him due to him being more emotive than average, but truth is Adolin's a good kid. 

 

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1 hour ago, maxal said:

Dalinar is a hard one to judge: having read The Thrill, I can say without a doubt he absolutely does not deserve to be a Radiant. His past actions are so horrific he shouldn't be able to redeem himself from them, especially since he never paid any price for them.

I think this is a problem of expectation, and I've been guilty of it too. This is all about what we think the Knights should be, in contrast to what they were/are. 

In Dalinar's vision with Nohadon, which should be prior to the KR in the time-line, we hear of surgebinders fighting in what seems to have been some kind of revolution that weakened the people before that particular desolation.

Surgebinders may be a result of the Spren emulating the Honorblades, but the Knights were founded to place restrictions on a group of people who were not bound by the Oaths. 

The Spren choosing someone would seem to be based on a set of criteria that we know nothing about that is separate from the Oaths themselves. 

Gavilar was on his way to being a Bondsmith, and he is arguably worse due to the scope of what he wanted to achieve than Dalinar ever was.

Saying that Dalinar does not deserve to be a Radiant, because he does not conform to what we think the Knights should be, is an incorrect assumption.

I think that the Knights are, due to the nature of the Nahel bond, all extremely flawed and broken people, and the imposition of the Oaths upon them was to mitigate the fact that the types of people that are able to attract the Spren in the first place, are more than likely not good people unless forced to abide by a set moral structure. 

There will obviously be exceptions, and I think that has more to do with the Spren than the people. Syl is obviously drawn to Kaladin for the very reasons he seems to be the most truly honorable cast member.

The Skybreakers though? I don't think there have ever been "rogue" Skybreakers, like people tend to speak of Nale's group. They follow their code, and impose the law as it's been interpreted for them, unquestionably. That's not Heroic. That's not even honorable in the way that most people use the word. But it does adhere to the structure imposed upon them.

We have to accept the Knights for what they are, and not what we want them to be. I don't believe we know enough to say anything as to what the Knights are, other than people with powers. 

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25 minutes ago, Calderis said:

I think this is a problem of expectation, and I've been guilty of it too. This is all about what we think the Knights should be, in contrast to what they were/are. 

Oh, this is very true and I do agree with you. My problems sprout from many factors. On one side, the one Radiant we have spent the most time with, Kaladin, essentially is a good honorable person, so honorable he refuses to kill an antagonist towards the end of WoR. On the other side, we have those many characters which are Radiants, but have done questionable actions. Hence, since they are Radiants, most readers take them for essentially good people, still basing themselves onto Kaladin, finding excuses or justification for their actions, being satisfied knowing a spren found them made them morally superior. Thus, it is based upon those justifications many readers have decided Adolin was up to no good: he killed a man in a brutal manner, no spren wanted him, as a result he will become an antagonist, linked to Odium either voluntary or not.

It is basically what antagonized me, the fact so many are baring Adolin from aby positive interesting future on the virtue he killed an antagonist.

34 minutes ago, Calderis said:

In Dalinar's vision with Nohadon, which should be prior to the KR in the time-line, we hear of surgebinders fighting in what seems to have been some kind of revolution that weakened the people before that particular desolation.

Surgebinders may be a result of the Spren emulating the Honorblades, but the Knights were founded to place restrictions on a group of people who were not bound by the Oaths. 

The Spren choosing someone would seem to be based on a set of criteria that we know nothing about that is separate from the Oaths themselves. 

Gavilar was on his way to being a Bondsmith, and he is arguably worse due to the scope of what he wanted to achieve than Dalinar ever was.

Saying that Dalinar does not deserve to be a Radiant, because he does not conform to what we think the Knights should be, is an incorrect assumption.

I agree with this as well. In Dalinar's case, I meant if people are so prone to reject Adolin as a protagonist, as opposed to an antagonist, then why are they fine with Dalinar whom, by all means, did so much worst. I certainly agree Gavilar was a worst individual, I did list within the most despicable individual and I didn't list Dalinar. The reason for it is Dalinar is actually sorry for it, he actually acknowledged  he made a mistake which, to me, was the first step towards redemption, but I shall always be troubled he was allowed so much evil without ever paying anything of his own. It makes Adolin's upcoming punishment very heartbreaking, whatever it may be.

Thus, if Radiants are to be perfectly honorable individuals, the nobody deserves to be one besides Kaladin and even he nearly failed. If Adolin is somewhat evil what he's done, then so is Dalinar.

39 minutes ago, Calderis said:

We have to accept the Knights for what they are, and not what we want them to be. I don't believe we know enough to say anything as to what the Knights are, other than people with powers. 

One of my thoughts have been we are going to see a faction in between the Radiants... I suspect Taravangian will become another Bondsmith and Radiants will either follow him or Dalinar. I suspect a rift, eventually mostly because most Radiants aren't good people. They are broken, most near shattering and the oaths they have sworn have so many loopholes, it does a poor job of containing their powers.

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@maxal I agree for the most part. 

The only thing I'm not sure on is Taravangian. I've had the same thought and wrestled with it. The possibilities in the flexibility of the Oaths are there. The Oaths actually being in place and being used though... Taravangian consistently breaks the one and only universal oath of the Knights. Everything he is doing focuses on the destination and disregards the journey completely. The Skybreakers seem to show that even that can be interpreted in a very different way... So I can't decide if he should be a Bondsmith, or if he isn't acceptable.

Guess I'll just wait and see. 

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34 minutes ago, Calderis said:

@maxal I agree for the most part. 

The only thing I'm not sure on is Taravangian. I've had the same thought and wrestled with it. The possibilities in the flexibility of the Oaths are there. The Oaths actually being in place and being used though... Taravangian consistently breaks the one and only universal oath of the Knights. Everything he is doing focuses on the destination and disregards the journey completely. The Skybreakers seem to show that even that can be interpreted in a very different way... So I can't decide if he should be a Bondsmith, or if he isn't acceptable.

Guess I'll just wait and see. 

I know, but what if the first oath isn't what we think it is? After all, Gavilar was on his way to become a Bondsmith, despite wanting to create a Desolation just so his country could stand united against a common foe. In all honesty, I am sincerely wondering what is the difference in between what Gavilar tried to accomplished and what Taravangian is actually doing? Taravangian, at the very least, has for goal to save humanity, even if he is willing to believe he needs to kill half of it for it to stand united. Gavilar wanted the Desolation to happen which is worst... Thus, if Gavilar can be a Radiant, basically anyone can, even Sadeas and please someone save me, even Elhokar. 

What does the first oath mean anyway? Life before death? Who's life and who's death? Your own or other people's life? Seeing how it is currently unfolding, I am tempted to say "your life" is the answer.

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50 minutes ago, maxal said:

What does the first oath mean anyway? Life before death? Who's life and who's death? Your own or other people's life? Seeing how it is currently unfolding, I am tempted to say "your life" is the answer.

I think the fact that it is the same oath for all orders is intentionally deceptive and all three portions of it will vary widely.

For Bondsmiths, for Gavilar's (and would work for Taravangian too) goals to work, it may be something as drastically different as 

Life before death: The life of the whole is more important than any individual. 

Strength before weakness: Strength is required in the face of difficult actions. 

Journey before destination: To balk at a step on the path, is failure. 

Now, I don't think this is an accurate guess. But if the words are truly open to interpretation, I don't think I said anything there that those words could not mean. 

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