Kaladin and Shallan

[Guest]

22 minutes ago, kari-no-sugata said:

I think Kaladin and Shallan could have a quite interesting relationship going forwards but it doesn't necessarily have to be romantic.

Don't think so. If Adolin and Kaladin grow any closer as friends and Shallan and Kaladin grow any closer as friends, then Adolin would grow very, very jealous. His insecurity with women (in serious relationships) will do that. Though I think, that Shadolin itself, will bar any relationship progression between Kaladin and Shallan, since Kaladin would distance himself from her out of respect for Adolin. Like he already did.

22 minutes ago, kari-no-sugata said:

Firstly, Shallan is with Adolin right now which I find interesting and I'd like it to continue. It would also be a bit of a worrying trend for Shallan to have a romantic relationship of some degree with three different people in three books. Although Shallan and Adolin's relationship gets written off as "shallow" quite often, to me, having a romantic relationship that starts from "love at first sight" actually feels quite fresh and interesting, and their deepening relationship has been enjoyable to read. Naturally there's going to be some bumps in the road either way but I hope to see them come out stronger for it.

I find it pretty basic to be honest. Not exactly shallow, but basic. Nothing exceptional. I found the whole chasm sequence way more enjoyable to read, but maybe that's just me. Highly subjective matter.

22 minutes ago, kari-no-sugata said:

Secondly, I've gotten quite bored with romantic relationships starting from "hate-hate" (or mutual dislike) - it's been done way too much. It's not like a relationship has to go from one extreme to another to be legitimate.

It's not personal hate. Shallan's opionion of Kaladin, prior to the chasm, was indifference, Kaladin's opinion of Shallan was his standard hate for lighteyes. Don't think that that is the typical "hate-hate" relationship.

 

22 minutes ago, kari-no-sugata said:

Thirdly, I don't think Kaladin is ready for a proper romantic relationship (though obviously things can change). I don't mean he can't fall in love or something like that - rather, he's poor at relationships in general except with his fellow soldiers. Because of that I find it hard to be enthusiastic about Kaladin having a mutual romantic relationship with anyone right now (one-sided is fine) because it doesn't feel like it would be too much fun. I hope to see Kaladin improve on this longer term and I certainly support him finding real romance at some point.

Ah, now that depends on what your definition of romance/love is. For me it is the highest level of affection a human being can give. I think Kaladin is perfectly capable of giving that. He just didn't have the possibility to show that so far. I think he just needs his chance to prove it and since Shallan is the only woman he's interested in at the moment, she's the only one available for him to prove it right now. Though that of course can change.

Edited June 14, 2017 by SLNC

[teknopathetic]

I am pretty sure the series is arcing towards Adolin and Kaladin ( •ॢ◡-ॢ)

Edited June 14, 2017 by teknopathetic

[Vissy]

4 hours ago, teknopathetic said:

I am pretty sure the series is arcing towards Adolin and Kaladin ( •ॢ◡-ॢ)

Of course! How could we have missed this! It'd be totally Brandon's style as well, complete outta left field

[Sami]

11 hours ago, AerionBFII said:

Mind if i ask your reasoning for this? I'd personally prefer Adolin x Shallan. She was unbearable in the first 90% of WOK but she grew on me after she actually started doing stuff. Kaladin is by far my favourite character but im pretty indifferent towards Adolin i don't really like him but i don't dislike him. 

 

Well, as a character I actually find Adolin a bit annoying. Not that he's not a nice guy, but he just seems to get in the way a bit. (he's also a lot like Elend. Same as Elend annoyed me just a little bit as well ) But I think that he would be much happier with a sweeter, a bit less self-centred wife with less issues and who can concentrate more on making him happy than running around behind his back being a Radiant and lying to him. Don't get me wrong, I like Shallan a lot its just that I think that she isn't the best match for him and if they stayed together he would just get more and more insecure. 

On the other hand, she seems to make Kaladin happier, is able to draw him out of his shell, and I feel like he has the potential to understand her and help her more than Adolin could. (if that makes any sense) 

[maxal]

9 hours ago, kari-no-sugata said:

Firstly, Shallan is with Adolin right now which I find interesting and I'd like it to continue. It would also be a bit of a worrying trend for Shallan to have a romantic relationship of some degree with three different people in three books. Although Shallan and Adolin's relationship gets written off as "shallow" quite often, to me, having a romantic relationship that starts from "love at first sight" actually feels quite fresh and interesting, and their deepening relationship has been enjoyable to read. Naturally there's going to be some bumps in the road either way but I hope to see them come out stronger for it.

What I find interesting with the Adolin and Shallan relationship is the role reversal we are likely to see happening within book 3. While their engagement started up as the union in between the rich heir of a princedom and a young girl from an impoverish foreign minor house, it morphed into the shaky union in between the most important/powerful woman on Roshar and the murderous potentially destitute son of a Highprince. While Adolin wasn't looking, while he wasn't paying attention, worst while he was busy fighting both his father's and his peoples's enemies, the world shifted. Him, whom was previously sitting on the front seat, his hands firm onto the driving wheel got shoved into the backseat. Suddenly, unexpectedly, all he is has become irrelevant (next to his Radiant family, his Radiant girlfriend, his Radiant environment). How can he remain the strong pillar for his family when all he is just isn't enough? Where can he positions himself next to a wife which is all he isn't allowed to be?

I personally find fascinating and I do think it adds a modern twist to the relationship as, even to this day, not everyone is comfortable with women taking the front seat within relationships, with women being the money makers (well, Radiant here). It has been something our societies had to adapt themselves to within the past decades, I felt it was about time fantasy moved forward and presented more relationships where the man has to deal with not being able to fulfill the role he thought he would have. As a rule of thumb, fantasy usually concerns itself with characters having to deal with their increasing powers, with rising within society, with having to deal with the upper ranked individuals, with being dismissed for being an under-dog: it rarely shows us the opposite trajectory. I think it is amazing Brandon took the opportunity to show it with one of his characters.

In shorts, I find the thematic involved within this relationship to be very interesting and I'd love to see where it'll go.

 

 

[kari-no-sugata]

8 hours ago, maxal said:

What I find interesting with the Adolin and Shallan relationship is the role reversal we are likely to see happening within book 3.

Nice post, maxal - I think this topic would easily justify its own thread.

I think the culture these characters are in make it particularly ripe for exploring role reversal and the like. For example, the dahn (and nahn) system of ranks is somewhat fluid - some things are harder than others but going up or down ranks happens often enough. This makes for a particular quirk in the culture that being a Shardbearer automatically makes you at least 4th dahn regardless of what you were before... though until now that "regardless" hadn't had an example of a female Shardbearer (at least publicly). So we suddenly have one social convention (you can rank-up by becoming a Shardbearer) coming up against another social convention (having weapons and fighting is a male role). It'll be interesting to see what reactions there are to this. I wonder if Shallan will run with this or not - she could probably demand weapons training and get it but I'd be somewhat surprised if she did (for various reasons).

Meanwhile, for Adolin there's all sorts of potential downsides, depending on what happens. I would guess that normally if a Lighteyes is disowned then they would automatically become 10th dahn (ie drop to the bottom). In Adolin's case, if he keeps his Shards then he would lose the right to inherit and his specific position and so on but wouldn't be able to drop further than 4th dahn.

So individually, there's quite a lot of scope for them to be going in opposite directions, in terms of their social position. Shallan in particular looks set to disrupt Vorin society and conventions, though her situation won't be unique once Jasnah returns and together they would probably cause even bigger shockwaves. (Of course, it's not just about Vorin culture and the situation would still be interesting in a more generic culture). If we then include the relationship between Shallan and Adolin then there's all sorts of potential for interesting developments both for the characters by themselves and what it means for their relationship.

Role reversals by themselves aren't a new thing of course - there's the very distinct example of Siri and Vivi in Warbreaker. However, I don't expect Adolin and Shallan to both go through a 180 degree turn. It feels more like a "social position reversal", making it more open-ended and interesting. I can't think of a similar example in fiction currently, though of course we don't know just how all this is going to play out in practice in this particular case.

[kari-no-sugata]

23 hours ago, SLNC said:

Don't think so. If Adolin and Kaladin grow any closer as friends and Shallan and Kaladin grow any closer as friends, then Adolin would grow very, very jealous. His insecurity with women (in serious relationships) will do that. Though I think, that Shadolin itself, will bar any relationship progression between Kaladin and Shallan, since Kaladin would distance himself from her out of respect for Adolin. Like he already did.

Adolin hasn't been shown to get jealous though. If anything, if he saw Kaladin and Shallan being friendly and that triggered his insecurities then he would be more likely to simply walk away from the relationship. If Adolin got jealous I would actually take that as a good sign - I've wondered if Kaladin might end up being a stalking-horse for Adolin regarding Shallan.

Regarding Kaladin distancing himself from Shallan - the general situation will probably not allow that long term. He might be away for a good chunk of Oathbringer but not the whole book. There's not that many Radiants around and they need to learn things from each other and work together to help solve the big problems.

 

23 hours ago, SLNC said:

I find it pretty basic to be honest. Not exactly shallow, but basic. Nothing exceptional. I found the whole chasm sequence way more enjoyable to read, but maybe that's just me. Highly subjective matter.

I enjoy the chasm sequence a lot myself. It's a brilliant short story contained in the overall book. The rapid developments etc are a great read - I've probably read it more than ten times. However, it's not like that's what Kaladin and Shallan are going to be like all the time. It's just not possible - because their relationship has already changed.

 

23 hours ago, SLNC said:

It's not personal hate. Shallan's opionion of Kaladin, prior to the chasm, was indifference, Kaladin's opinion of Shallan was his standard hate for lighteyes. Don't think that that is the typical "hate-hate" relationship.

That's why I put hate-hate in quotes to help indicate I was referring to the general relationship concept. I also added "(or mutual dislike)" for good measure.

This is just a theory of mine, but I think one of the reasons why Brandon added the "boots" scene is to delay any meaningful developments between the two until the chasm scene. More to give Kaladin an excuse to treat Shallan as "just another Lighteyes", so that when the chasm scene does come around the change in their relationship can be more obvious.

 

23 hours ago, SLNC said:

Ah, now that depends on what your definition of romance/love is. For me it is the highest level of affection a human being can give. I think Kaladin is perfectly capable of giving that. He just didn't have the possibility to show that so far. I think he just needs his chance to prove it and since Shallan is the only woman he's interested in at the moment, she's the only one available for him to prove it right now. Though that of course can change.

To quote myself from previously:  I don't mean he can't fall in love or something like that - rather, he's poor at relationships in general except with his fellow soldiers.

My point was not about him falling in love but having a romantic relationship. There's already hints that Kaladin has been in love before to some degree, eg with Tarah at least, maybe Laral too. He's certainly not lacking in passion (actually, I sometimes think that his passions are too strong and have a tendency to undermine him).

To expand a bit on why I think Kaladin would be bad at romantic relationships: he has a terrible work/life balance - meaning, he would be unlikely to have much spare time or make time to go on dates or the like. He's the type of guy who would cancel a date due to work (and might not even send a message). He would be able to meet with Shallan as part of his work as a Radiant but that's not necessarily a good time for romance. He's not good at relaxing. He's not good at more delicate interactions. He's not good at dealing with women at all, really.

I'm not saying it's impossible. Obviously, he can work on fixing the above issues and maybe the plot will give him a helping hand. And actually, Shallan would be far more likely to forgive such issues than most, but then there's the "minor" problem that she's currently in a relationship with Adolin and if that fell through she wouldn't be likely to want another relationship any time soon.

[ElyssK]

Personally I'm fairly divided on this subject. For a while I was firmly in the Kaladin/Shallan camp, but then Shallan and Adolin are just so...cute. It seems kind of corny, but in some ways they really are just a cute couple. But Kaladin and Shallan can exchange sarcastic remarks and Kaladin is smarter than Adolin so I'm back shipping Kaladin/Shallan again. 

I would also be perfectly alright if they just remain friends. I'm at the point now where I feel that I would be content with either pairing because I feel that the other party in the love triangle would still be a close friend. I think that is why I am actually enjoying this love triangle, a concept towards which I am often strongly opposed. 

[maxal]

12 hours ago, kari-no-sugata said:

Nice post, maxal - I think this topic would easily justify its own thread.

Thanks  It is something I had wanted to say for a while, I was just waiting for the right occasion to write it. There is so much to say 

12 hours ago, kari-no-sugata said:

I think the culture these characters are in make it particularly ripe for exploring role reversal and the like. For example, the dahn (and nahn) system of ranks is somewhat fluid - some things are harder than others but going up or down ranks happens often enough. This makes for a particular quirk in the culture that being a Shardbearer automatically makes you at least 4th dahn regardless of what you were before... though until now that "regardless" hadn't had an example of a female Shardbearer (at least publicly). So we suddenly have one social convention (you can rank-up by becoming a Shardbearer) coming up against another social convention (having weapons and fighting is a male role). It'll be interesting to see what reactions there are to this. I wonder if Shallan will run with this or not - she could probably demand weapons training and get it but I'd be somewhat surprised if she did (for various reasons).

Meanwhile, for Adolin there's all sorts of potential downsides, depending on what happens. I would guess that normally if a Lighteyes is disowned then they would automatically become 10th dahn (ie drop to the bottom). In Adolin's case, if he keeps his Shards then he would lose the right to inherit and his specific position and so on but wouldn't be able to drop further than 4th dahn.

There was an interesting WoB concerning the working of the dahn and nahn. What I recall from it is the ranks are more malleable then we would first be incline to believe. In shorts, moving up the ladder isn't impossible, it was in fact quite frequent. There are, however, what Brandon referred to as "stable ranks". Now, careful, I am not sure I remember it properly, but my understanding is while it isn't so hard to move up ranks, there however was a threshold which is hard to breached. If you happen to move beyond it, you could easily slip down to your "stable rank", but not much below it.

There is also yet another WoB which states Radiants would technically rank above everyone else, but the world might not be ready for it. In shorts I do expect all sorts of conflicts with respect to Radiants, their new found status within society and the fact half of them are likely to be women. Women yielding Shardblades. Women now beholding all of the power: power of the mind, power of education, power of being literate and now power onto the battlefield, shall they wish to enforce it. What it means for Shallan is yet unknown, but now she has uncovered a lost hidden city, she has taken an amazing jump into status: whether people agree with the return of the Radiants or not, they won't ignore Shallan Davar. How Shallan win enforce her new status is also unknown. My reading of her character has her not truly taking it in, going on with the flow and not taking the time to sit down a reflect on it. It might make it harder for Adolin to accept it.

What it means for Adolin is uncertain, but it does seem as if he will suffer some loss. Now, I doubt he can realistically sink down to the 10th dahn, 4th dahn is probably his "stable rank", so even if Dalinar disinherits him, it seems unlikely he would drop this low. Still, within the Adolin and Shallan relationship, it might not be their actual rank which will matter, but how their importance, role and effectiveness is perceived. Adolin has always expected to be this very important individual, to be the next Highprince, to be a Prince and to marry a young woman who'd either rise in status or bring forward required political alliance: he never expected she would rank higher than he. He never expected her position would be more important than his which will be very true is he suffers destitution from his father. He never expected not having anything substantial to bring to the union, he never expected he, just simple he, would have to be enough.

This being said, one of my favorite theories has Adolin actually lose his Shards, either through dueling or by being asked to forfeit them. He would then lose the last of his former identity, not even able to be the fighter he was. Who can he be if he can't even yield dead Shards? How can he find his place within a relationship with a woman who does yield Shards? Can he even or will it be too painful for him? Also, can Shallan accept this Adolin whom isn't the prince charming she signed up? Can she love him if he stops being dashing prince Adolin? Can she marry a man unable to bring her any advantages? 

13 hours ago, kari-no-sugata said:

So individually, there's quite a lot of scope for them to be going in opposite directions, in terms of their social position. Shallan in particular looks set to disrupt Vorin society and conventions, though her situation won't be unique once Jasnah returns and together they would probably cause even bigger shockwaves. (Of course, it's not just about Vorin culture and the situation would still be interesting in a more generic culture). If we then include the relationship between Shallan and Adolin then there's all sorts of potential for interesting developments both for the characters by themselves and what it means for their relationship.

Role reversals by themselves aren't a new thing of course - there's the very distinct example of Siri and Vivi in Warbreaker. However, I don't expect Adolin and Shallan to both go through a 180 degree turn. It feels more like a "social position reversal", making it more open-ended and interesting. I can't think of a similar example in fiction currently, though of course we don't know just how all this is going to play out in practice in this particular case.

I personally think it would very interesting is Brandon were to write Adolin and Shallan's trajectories as going into opposite directions: one has to deal with becoming the person she needs to be on her own terms while the other has to redefine himself in a rapidly changing world which has made him... obsolete. Unneeded. Unworthy. How can he find the strength to remain whole when life has basically told him he wasn't good enough for the new world. he isn't worthy, which well wouldn't be such a big deal, had the same life not decided basically everyone else he knows were. I find there is great potential to explore both characters as they find their bearings, as they figure out what their respective positions mean for their relationship. Instead of watching both characters moving up the ladder, as is customary, we would watch one rise while the other sinks: it would bring conflicts for both and I do think it would be very interesting to read.

For the rest, I don't expect Adolin to go through a complete turn-over: he just isn't the right character for this. I do agree it feels more like a "social position reversal" which is great because completely outside the story turn-overs fantasy usually plays with. 

[Guest]

12 hours ago, kari-no-sugata said:

Adolin hasn't been shown to get jealous though. If anything, if he saw Kaladin and Shallan being friendly and that triggered his insecurities then he would be more likely to simply walk away from the relationship. If Adolin got jealous I would actually take that as a good sign - I've wondered if Kaladin might end up being a stalking-horse for Adolin regarding Shallan.

Regarding Kaladin distancing himself from Shallan - the general situation will probably not allow that long term. He might be away for a good chunk of Oathbringer but not the whole book. There's not that many Radiants around and they need to learn things from each other and work together to help solve the big problems.

I think Adolin is perfectly capable of getting jealous. I don't want to open the keg of Sadeas' murder again, but he has shown, that he is capable of harsh outbursts of emotion. Though your theory might happen, too. It's hard to predict Adolin.

What I meant is, that he distances himself emotionally. Work relationships are not the same as emotional relationships and Kaladin already has decided not to act on his feelings for Shallan. Of course, that might change again. Especially if she herself makes advances.

12 hours ago, kari-no-sugata said:

This is just a theory of mine, but I think one of the reasons why Brandon added the "boots" scene is to delay any meaningful developments between the two until the chasm scene. More to give Kaladin an excuse to treat Shallan as "just another Lighteyes", so that when the chasm scene does come around the change in their relationship can be more obvious.

I actually agree with that. What I meant is that indifference from Shallan is not hate or even dislike. She just didn't care. Though in Kaladin's case you could make a point that he hated her, but I think that was necessary for his character development, so I'll forgive Brandon that.

12 hours ago, kari-no-sugata said:

My point was not about him falling in love but having a romantic relationship. There's already hints that Kaladin has been in love before to some degree, eg with Tarah at least, maybe Laral too. He's certainly not lacking in passion (actually, I sometimes think that his passions are too strong and have a tendency to undermine him).

To expand a bit on why I think Kaladin would be bad at romantic relationships: he has a terrible work/life balance - meaning, he would be unlikely to have much spare time or make time to go on dates or the like. He's the type of guy who would cancel a date due to work (and might not even send a message). He would be able to meet with Shallan as part of his work as a Radiant but that's not necessarily a good time for romance. He's not good at relaxing. He's not good at more delicate interactions. He's not good at dealing with women at all, really.

You misunderstand me. I agree with your points, though my point is: When did he have a chance to show his capability of these things in his adult life? His whole adult life has been about survival (army, slavery, bridge leader, leader of Dalinar's personal guard, fighting against Parshendi). It's hard to break habits, but I am positive that a relationship could help him out of that (as it once did with Tarah, but we don't exactly know why they broke up. I actually would like to read a flashback about him and Tarah.). Sometimes you have to be thrown in cold water to realize your mistakes in the past. That especially applies to dating. At least, that is what my real life experiences are.

Edited June 16, 2017 by SLNC

[kari-no-sugata]

7 hours ago, maxal said:

Thanks  It is something I had wanted to say for a while, I was just waiting for the right occasion to write it. There is so much to say 

Create that thread then!

(Though it might just be you and I talking... Hopefully not though...)

 

7 hours ago, maxal said:

There was an interesting WoB concerning the working of the dahn and nahn. What I recall from it is the ranks are more malleable then we would first be incline to believe. In shorts, moving up the ladder isn't impossible, it was in fact quite frequent. There are, however, what Brandon referred to as "stable ranks". Now, careful, I am not sure I remember it properly, but my understanding is while it isn't so hard to move up ranks, there however was a threshold which is hard to breached. If you happen to move beyond it, you could easily slip down to your "stable rank", but not much below it.

I think you're referring to the WoBs nicely quoted here:

http://stormlightarchive.wikia.com/wiki/Citizenship_in_Alethkar

 

7 hours ago, maxal said:

There is also yet another WoB which states Radiants would technically rank above everyone else, but the world might not be ready for it. In shorts I do expect all sorts of conflicts with respect to Radiants, their new found status within society and the fact half of them are likely to be women. Women yielding Shardblades. Women now beholding all of the power: power of the mind, power of education, power of being literate and now power onto the battlefield, shall they wish to enforce it. What it means for Shallan is yet unknown, but now she has uncovered a lost hidden city, she has taken an amazing jump into status: whether people agree with the return of the Radiants or not, they won't ignore Shallan Davar. How Shallan win enforce her new status is also unknown. My reading of her character has her not truly taking it in, going on with the flow and not taking the time to sit down a reflect on it. It might make it harder for Adolin to accept it.

The impression Shallan gives at the end of WoR is far from someone taking on a heavy burden of responsibility. I don't think she likes or enjoys that sort of pressure. I think she can mature into it over the long term, though she might use other "disguises" as a form of relief. (Brandon has said that Shallan is quite similar to himself in a number of ways, so maybe Brandon's method of jumping between projects to keep himself invigorated and fresh will be reflected in Shallan jumping between roles/faces as a way to release the pressure she feels).

One thing I would like to see at the beginning of Oathbreaker is for Shallan to sit down and talk with her "group" - the soldiers she picked up along the way and the slaves as well. If such a thing does happen I wouldn't be surprised if Shallan offers to let any of them leave if they want to - eg if they're worried about their families due to the Everstorm and so on. The "War of Vengeance" should technically be over so it should be possible to release the normal soldiers from their oaths. As far as I remember, Shallan and her soldiers don't have a formal/legal relationship so maybe they'll sort one out. I wouldn't be surprised if Shallan buys all her soldiers some big promotions in terms of nahn level, which would be interesting to see from a world-building perspective (amongst other reasons).

Adolin overall reactions are hard to predict because we don't even know what realistic choices he will have. Going by how he feels at the end of WoR he could feel very uncertain about many things. So, one route he could go down would be to cling more strongly to things that help him feel secure. However, that feels a bit weak for Adolin unless he ends up pretty much "broken" by events. Another option is that after some reflection on what he cares about most he could embrace some aspects of the new situation that would help the most. For example, if he wants to protect and help those close to him, then he might decide to actively try to become a Radiant.

With regards to Adolin's reactions to Shallan's reactions to her new position - yeah, if she seems to deal with it easily (from his perspective) then that might well make him feel worse.

 

7 hours ago, maxal said:

What it means for Adolin is uncertain, but it does seem as if he will suffer some loss. Now, I doubt he can realistically sink down to the 10th dahn, 4th dahn is probably his "stable rank", so even if Dalinar disinherits him, it seems unlikely he would drop this low. Still, within the Adolin and Shallan relationship, it might not be their actual rank which will matter, but how their importance, role and effectiveness is perceived. Adolin has always expected to be this very important individual, to be the next Highprince, to be a Prince and to marry a young woman who'd either rise in status or bring forward required political alliance: he never expected she would rank higher than he. He never expected her position would be more important than his which will be very true is he suffers destitution from his father. He never expected not having anything substantial to bring to the union, he never expected he, just simple he, would have to be enough.

It'll be interesting to see which aspects affect Adolin the most. I see him as the type who would be affected more by how others react to him than his official status. So if he feels people are treating him differently then that would affect him more than any changes to his actual rank in society.

This is not to say that how others react to him is the only thing that matters - given what Adolin is thinking through at the end of WoR, he clearly has worries and uncertainties that are new to him. While he has been through various periods of change in his life, having the whole of society change around him etc would probably be too much for him to sort out quickly (even without the incident with Sadeas). If he feels that he is becoming a liability (due to Sadeas) on top of all that then I would expect that to be very difficult for him to handle.

 

7 hours ago, maxal said:

This being said, one of my favorite theories has Adolin actually lose his Shards, either through dueling or by being asked to forfeit them. He would then lose the last of his former identity, not even able to be the fighter he was. Who can he be if he can't even wield dead Shards? How can he find his place within a relationship with a woman who does wield Shards? Can he even or will it be too painful for him? Also, can Shallan accept this Adolin whom isn't the prince charming she signed up? Can she love him if he stops being dashing prince Adolin? Can she marry a man unable to bring her any advantages?

Ahh, Shallan. Even reading between the lines a lot it can be heard to understand her. She possibly has the most complex decision making process since she includes pretty much all factors it seems - logic, instinct, objectives, feelings, artistic sense... and also her "connection" to others. There's probably many ways to try to describe this but it could be said that Shallan wants to build positive "connections" with others. The stronger the sense of connection she has with someone the more her emotions will come into play - eg Shallan's attitude towards Jasnah during tWoK changes very quickly as she gets to know her.

She also built up a sense of connection with Kabsal, despite the fact that she was pretty sure such a relationship between the two of them would never work out. Finding out that "Kabsal" was basically a lie, had deceived her, had tried to kill Jasnah and had died instead hurt her a lot because of the connection she had built up. There's several times she thinks back about Kabsal during WoR and early on with Adolin she was hesitant as a side effect.

So going on to her relationship with Adolin. Before they met, Shallan's thoughts were driven more from logic and objectives (like before she met Jasnah) but then things changed very quickly once she met him (like with Jasnah). The first few times they met she was still applying logic and objectives to some degree but as she built up a sense of connection such things drop away and her interactions are driven mostly by instinct and emotion. With Kabsal she was always hesitating and holding back, but with Adolin she went full throttle quite quickly.

So I would say that her sense of connection to Adolin is much much stronger than it ever was with Kabsal. But what does that mean in practice? I would say that once Shallan has built up a strong connection she would want to preserve it if at all possible - it takes something extreme for Shallan herself to end an established connection with someone (eg her father). If this theory is correct then Shallan is very much not going to dump Adolin at the first sign of trouble. If events become extreme enough that she does have to end her connection to Adolin then she will definitely be hurt a lot by that and I don't think she would get over it quickly (probably not until SA4 if the story goes down this route).

Of course, none of this means that Shallan can't build up connections with other guys or that if she keeps her connection with Adolin strong then it automatically means that they'll marry or something. In addition, Shallan currently has strong connections with multiple people and she might struggle to distinguish between "a strong connection" and "a love relationship", for example. It's of course possible that she can build her connection with Kaladin further whatever happens with Adolin but I think she would avoid anything that she feels is romantic.

Shallan also has a strong connection to her brothers and she will definitely try to help them as much as she can, though we've already seen that she won't prioritise them over anything and everything. Her family situation is quite complex and who knows how her relationship with the Ghostbloods is going to evolve so the potential significance of her marrying Adolin (or anyone else) has changed quite a lot since the start of WoR. Putting it another way, it's not like she has to find someone of high status to marry. I would say that resolving the immediate situation with her brothers is going to depend more on "hard power" (use of force) than "soft power".

So to summarise my analysis and speculations: If real trouble occurs with Adolin, I don't see Shallan readily jumping ship or bailing out of the relationship. I'm pretty sure she would be willing to take risks for him and I think it would take something genuinely extreme for her to give up. If her relationship with Adolin does end in Oathbreaker then I would expect that she would become adverse to forming a similar relationship with anyone else for some time.

 

7 hours ago, maxal said:

I personally think it would very interesting is Brandon were to write Adolin and Shallan's trajectories as going into opposite directions: one has to deal with becoming the person she needs to be on her own terms while the other has to redefine himself in a rapidly changing world which has made him... obsolete. Unneeded. Unworthy. How can he find the strength to remain whole when life has basically told him he wasn't good enough for the new world. he isn't worthy, which well wouldn't be such a big deal, had the same life not decided basically everyone else he knows were. I find there is great potential to explore both characters as they find their bearings, as they figure out what their respective positions mean for their relationship. Instead of watching both characters moving up the ladder, as is customary, we would watch one rise while the other sinks: it would bring conflicts for both and I do think it would be very interesting to read.

For the rest, I don't expect Adolin to go through a complete turn-over: he just isn't the right character for this. I do agree it feels more like a "social position reversal" which is great because completely outside the story turn-overs fantasy usually plays with. 

I don't want to see him suffer, but I wonder how far Adolin will fall down... and how long it'll take for him to climb back to a position of stability... and how much he will change during that time.

[Deldraedair]

3 hours ago, maxal said:

What it means for Adolin is uncertain, but it does seem as if he will suffer some loss. Now, I doubt he can realistically sink down to the 10th dahn, 4th dahn is probably his "stable rank", so even if Dalinar disinherits him, it seems unlikely he would drop this low.

Tell me, in what world would Dalinar Kholin, who had just sworn an oath to unite instead of divide, disinherit his son because he's not radiant enough, or because he killed the man who left him stranded on the battle field causing the death of thousands? Do you really believe that he would break his oaths the very next book? 

In that case, you should call the next book oath breaker.

13 hours ago, kari-no-sugata said:

To expand a bit on why I think Kaladin would be bad at romantic relationships: he has a terrible work/life balance - meaning, he would be unlikely to have much spare time or make time to go on dates or the like. He's the type of guy who would cancel a date due to work (and might not even send a message). He would be able to meet with Shallan as part of his work as a Radiant but that's not necessarily a good time for romance. He's not good at relaxing. He's not good at more delicate interactions. He's not good at dealing with women at all, really.

 

Do you remember in WoK when Navani is trying to get some time alone with Dalinar, and she tries to get Adolin away by convincing him that his relationship with the girl he was currently courting was on the line. (Which apparently it was, since it ended shortly) She tries to convince him to bring her roses and he says I'll do it later. She then further explains that he needs to do it immediately or else his chance with her may end, which he replies by putting it off further. His relationship ended quickly. Please tell me why the guy who wasn't willing to do something as simple as get roses, and bring it to the girl he intends to marry, when there relationship is dying, is completely qualified to have a relationship. Well the person who charged toward a chasm fiend, to save the girl he found himself caring for, knowing full well that was almost surely going to die, is not.

 Listen, Roshar is about to be Completely obliterated by the Everstorm. Both Adolin and Kaladin are going to be incredibly busy. So who's relationship would work out depends on who's willing to sacrifice more. On this, as previously shown by my examples given above, Kaladin wins. Hands down! 

Besides, even if Kaladin were more busy, the fact that he is willing to give more, is far more important. If Shallan thinks other wise, than that is an incredibly disappointing flaw in her character. 

[Krandacth]

6 minutes ago, Deldraedair said:

Do you remember in WoK when Navani is trying to get some time alone with Dalinar, and she tries to get Adolin away by convincing him that his relationship with the girl he was currently courting was on the line. (Which apparently it was, since it ended shortly) She tries to convince him to bring her roses and he says I'll do it later. She then further explains that he needs to do it immediately or else his chance with her may end, which he replies by putting it off further. His relationship ended quickly. Please tell me why the guy who wasn't willing to do something as simple as get roses, and bring it to the girl he intends to marry, when there relationship is dying, is completely qualified to have a relationship. Well the person who charged toward a chasm fiend, to save the girl he found himself caring for, knowing full well that was almost surely going to die, is not.

Actually, it was Avramelons (or [something similar]melons) not roses, and Adolin jumped at the opportunity. Also, Kaladin charged towards the Chasmfiend to save the drawings that were vitally important to Dalinar (his liberator, commanding officer and only halfway-decent Brightlord Kaladin has known) and his strategy for ending the war (also a great thing in Kaladin's book).  He did, admittedly, offer to distract the Chasmfiend in some other manner to save Shallan, but still largely out of duty to Dalinar, as she is his son's betrothed and (again) carrying information vital to his forthcoming extremely dangerous expedition. I'm not denying there wasn't an element of Kaladin's budding respect and attraction to Shallan in his decision, but it was almost definitely the smaller part.

[maxal]

On the topic of Adolin and jealousy, I think both @SLNC and @kari-no-sugata brought valid points.

It is true Adolin hasn't shown himself to be naturally prone towards both envy nor jealousy throughout both books. He has had occasions to grow jealous, envious of Kaladin's increasing powers, but he chose not to. He never exhibited an "Oh why not me, I deserve it more" attitude which is why I am inclined to believe it won't start harboring those thoughts within the near future.

On the other hand, it is right to say Adolin certainly isn't above jealousy. In fact, we know he isn't as Brandon did confirm Adolin used to be jealous of Renarin as he was the recipient of most of the parental attention. Arguably, this WoB referred to a very young Adolin: grown-up Adolin seems completely devoid of negative feelings towards his father's treatment of his brother (to his detriment). It however shows what his trigger buttons might be and where he is most sensitive. So while Adolin isn't one to ask, to demand for more nor to envy what he feels others have earned, he can definitely grow jealous if he feels attention and love are denied from him from people he loves. 

I wouldn't put it pass Adolin to grow jealous of Kaladin, thought not necessarily because of Shallan. I have been thinking Dalinar's treatment of Kaladin might (might, just might, let's say there is a rational to have for it) turn him into an antagonist to Adolin. It would however demand much bigger trigger than just seeing Dalinar call him son, just as I doubt seeing Shallan potentially preferring Kaladin would also be enough. He has after all, seen too many of his courtships fail to not expect this one to follow the same course. 

Thus, my thinking is, if Adolin indeed grows jealous of Kaladin, it will be a multi-factorial event caused by many small times issues which will accumulate into several negative feelings. I however do not think jealous Adolin would grow vengeful: my thoughts are he is more likely to close up onto himself, work himself up to the extreme in attempt to prove he too is worthy of love and to try to obey to every single expectations more than ever. This is also how I suspect he dealt with it as a kid as I do think some of his present day issues are directly linked to his parents potentially acting as if they loved Renarin more (I don't mean to say they did, but their actions might have been interpreted in such way).

5 hours ago, kari-no-sugata said:

Create that thread then!

(Though it might just be you and I talking... Hopefully not though...)

I am always reluctant to start new threads having for subject Adolin... The character is already getting a lot of attention without myself starting new discussions. I mean, everyone knows I really love Adolin's character, if I were to start threads on top of answering to the ones other people have created... well it might be too much, now wouldn't it? 

6 hours ago, kari-no-sugata said:

I think you're referring to the WoBs nicely quoted here:

http://stormlightarchive.wikia.com/wiki/Citizenship_in_Alethkar

Ah yes that's the one  I'll admit I was too lazy to search it up yesterday, busy that I was watching an sillymovie I will not name in order to preserve my dignity  So stable rank for Adolin is third and not fourth as I had wrongly assumed. It is thus almost safe to say, Dalinar disinheriting Adolin would promote Renarin to 2nd dahn and demote Adolin to 3rd dahn. I do not know if it is possible for him to drop lower: he would need to be kicked out of the family, stripped of his name and not be considered as "the child of a Highprince".

It is also interesting to realize just how poor Heartstone truly was as the WoB does indicate the majority of the population did have the right to travel: being of the 3rd nahn and lower isn't usual. The fact Kaladin's family was the only one ranking high enough within their small village does seem to indicate how much better their life would have been had they established themselves into a bigger, richer town.

6 hours ago, kari-no-sugata said:

The impression Shallan gives at the end of WoR is far from someone taking on a heavy burden of responsibility. I don't think she likes or enjoys that sort of pressure. I think she can mature into it over the long term, though she might use other "disguises" as a form of relief. (Brandon has said that Shallan is quite similar to himself in a number of ways, so maybe Brandon's method of jumping between projects to keep himself invigorated and fresh will be reflected in Shallan jumping between roles/faces as a way to release the pressure she feels).

One thing I would like to see at the beginning of Oathbreaker is for Shallan to sit down and talk with her "group" - the soldiers she picked up along the way and the slaves as well. If such a thing does happen I wouldn't be surprised if Shallan offers to let any of them leave if they want to - eg if they're worried about their families due to the Everstorm and so on. The "War of Vengeance" should technically be over so it should be possible to release the normal soldiers from their oaths. As far as I remember, Shallan and her soldiers don't have a formal/legal relationship so maybe they'll sort one out. I wouldn't be surprised if Shallan buys all her soldiers some big promotions in terms of nahn level, which would be interesting to see from a world-building perspective (amongst other reasons).

Adolin overall reactions are hard to predict because we don't even know what realistic choices he will have. Going by how he feels at the end of WoR he could feel very uncertain about many things. So, one route he could go down would be to cling more strongly to things that help him feel secure. However, that feels a bit weak for Adolin unless he ends up pretty much "broken" by events. Another option is that after some reflection on what he cares about most he could embrace some aspects of the new situation that would help the most. For example, if he wants to protect and help those close to him, then he might decide to actively try to become a Radiant.

With regards to Adolin's reactions to Shallan's reactions to her new position - yeah, if she seems to deal with it easily (from his perspective) then that might well make him feel worse.

I like the first point you are bringing: it does make sense for Shallan to not be entirely comfortable with her new found position. After all, she isn't used to it, she never thought she would be it and adjusting from moving from minor poor (by lighteyes standard) country household to the upper ranks within the matters of a few weeks can be quite dizzying. I would however argue Shallan has proven to be quick to adapt, as long as she has a target, a goal, something to work for. She might however falter if left to think about it for too long. Needless to say it will be very interesting to see how she navigates throughout her new obligations. I love the idea of her merging more and more into disguises in order to relieve the pressure she isn't aware she is feeling.

I did wonder if Shallan might end up preferring one of her alternate personalities (thinking Veil) to her real one, though this would arguably count as "lying" and thus not be good for her bond.

The one problem I foresee with Shallan is while it is true she now ranks higher than anyone else, she still does not have a wealthy income. I mean, she isn't rich by her own right. Her income still depends on Sebrarial (whom I am not too sure about). How she will evolve to secure her own finances it still not sure: it may be where she might feel she still needs an alliance with Adolin. 

I somehow do not think soldiers will be relieved from their duties because the War of Vengeance is over... The Desolation is looming and events within the next book is likely to quiet down all thoughts it isn't actually happening.

As for Adolin, he typically appears to fear events/objects/creatures he cannot control: it seems to cause him some level of anxiety not to have agency to influence them (or not enough). Each time, his reaction has been the same: he hid it, he never let anyone know/guess he was uncomfortable, he did his very best to prevent anyone he might be afraid. He swallowed it up, cover it up, gritted his teeth and moved forward. While doing so, he did cling to events/objects/creatures he could control. For instances, Dalinar seeing visions of the future unnerves him, scares him, but he chose to focus on the upcoming meeting with Eshonai (something he can control) in order to not get overwhelm by the events he cannot control (visions). I thus do think, when the world collapses around him, Adolin would try to cling to whatever he can he feels he has control over. Ever since we had this WoB stating Adolin would get to wear something else than his uniform, my thoughts have been Adolin would stubbornly refuse to follow his father's codes anymore, ditching his uniform in the process as within the whirlwind it might be all he feels he can influence.

So yeah, if Adolin feels he has no more agency within his relationship, well, I am unsure what he'll do. He might just run away.

9 hours ago, kari-no-sugata said:

It'll be interesting to see which aspects affect Adolin the most. I see him as the type who would be affected more by how others react to him than his official status. So if he feels people are treating him differently then that would affect him more than any changes to his actual rank in society.

This is not to say that how others react to him is the only thing that matters - given what Adolin is thinking through at the end of WoR, he clearly has worries and uncertainties that are new to him. While he has been through various periods of change in his life, having the whole of society change around him etc would probably be too much for him to sort out quickly (even without the incident with Sadeas). If he feels that he is becoming a liability (due to Sadeas) on top of all that then I would expect that to be very difficult for him to handle.

I do agree Adolin is more likely to react harshly to being treated differently, to his father doting more openly on Renarin/Elhokar/Kaladin, to people basically ignoring him. So yeah, that might be the worst for him.

As far as I can tell, Adolin isn't one to adapt quickly to changes... He can handle them, within small doses, but not within the magnitude they currently have. IMO, not many people would be able to handle it. Him thinking he is a liability would be the worst: my thoughts are he might as well try to prove he is still relevant which could lead to emotion-filled rash decision making.

9 hours ago, kari-no-sugata said:

So to summarise my analysis and speculations: If real trouble occurs with Adolin, I don't see Shallan readily jumping ship or bailing out of the relationship. I'm pretty sure she would be willing to take risks for him and I think it would take something genuinely extreme for her to give up. If her relationship with Adolin does end in Oathbreaker then I would expect that she would become adverse to forming a similar relationship with anyone else for some time.

I love you connection analysis and I do agree it makes sense for Shallan's character to cling to her connections up until they prove they are up to no good. However, what if she feels her connection to Adolin might not be love? What if she decides to develop her connection with Kaladin? What happens then? Brandon did hint his "love triangle" would focus on teenagers not being sure whom they love which does imply Shallan will do some thinking. Adding the WoB stating there would be "romantic moments" in between Kaladin and Shallan, then well, how do you reconcile your connection analysis with it? If Shallan would never be willing to dumb Adolin, well not readily, then how does it work around what we know will happen?

9 hours ago, kari-no-sugata said:

I don't want to see him suffer, but I wonder how far Adolin will fall down... and how long it'll take for him to climb back to a position of stability... and how much he will change during that time.

My thoughts are WoR showed Adolin at his peak: dashing handsome dueling prince Adolin whom just fulfilled his dream of becoming the king's champion. On the reverse, Oathbringer might show him at his worst: the contrast is bond to be interesting. Also, it isn't I want to see Adolin suffer, but without suffering, there is little character development to be had.

8 hours ago, Deldraedair said:

Tell me, in what world would Dalinar Kholin, who had just sworn an oath to unite instead of divide, disinherit his son because he's not radiant enough, or because he killed the man who left him stranded on the battle field causing the death of thousands? Do you really believe that he would break his oaths the very next book? 

In that case, you should call the next book oath breaker.

Because Dalinar believes his mission is to unite the Highprinces. His son murdered a Highprince which is against the law. He can't be seen playing favorite, pretending to be the honorable one while allowing his son to get away with it. He can't allow other Highprinces to think he might have sent Adolin to kill Sadeas, on purpose. So, all in all, Dalinar might very well not have the chance to punish his son, not to forget Brandon basically told us he would. When asked if Dalinar would punish Adolin if he knew, Brandon said yes, he would, except he doesn't know. 

Also, the book is named Oathbringer in reference to an in-world book which is presume to refer to Dalinar's former Shardblade and his former owner. Other theories have it might be a biography of Dalinar, but I think not as Dalinar isn't the Oathbringer, he did not name the Blade nor does he carry it anymore.

All in all, punishing Adolin probably isn't against Dalinar's oaths. Gavilar was willing quick-start a Desolation in order to strengthen his kingdom and yet he too was on the path to become a Bondsmith. I say, it is quite likely the Stormfather won't care one bit what Dalinar does to Adolin.

[kari-no-sugata]

I'll reply to more later...

15 hours ago, maxal said:

I love you connection analysis and I do agree it makes sense for Shallan's character to cling to her connections up until they prove they are up to no good.

Thanks. It was an interesting way to express what we see going on with Shallan and the use of the word "connection" was quite deliberate. Quoting from the WoR Ars Arcanum on Lightweaving:

Quote

 

A second form of Surgebinding involves the manipulation of light and sound in illusory tactics common throughout the cosmere. Unlike the variations present on Sel, however, this method has a powerful Spiritual element, requiring not just a full mental picture of the intended creation, but some level of connection to it as well. The illusion is based not simply upon what the Lightweaver imagines, but upon what they desire to create.

However, I don't mean to imply that all Lightweavers are going to be the same. I'm pretty sure Shallan is an outlier rather than being typical either way.

 

Quote

However, what if she feels her connection to Adolin might not be love? What if she decides to develop her connection with Kaladin? What happens then? Brandon did hint his "love triangle" would focus on teenagers not being sure whom they love which does imply Shallan will do some thinking. Adding the WoB stating there would be "romantic moments" in between Kaladin and Shallan, then well, how do you reconcile your connection analysis with it? If Shallan would never be willing to dumb Adolin, well not readily, then how does it work around what we know will happen?

So, if we start from the basis that Shallan seeks to build connections with others (both consciously and sub-consciously) then it would be typical of her to build a connection with Kaladin over time - regardless of what's going on with her relationship with Adolin. And not just Kaladin, but pretty much everyone she meets regularly - this would almost certainly include Renarin too in Oathbreaker. She already started with Navani towards the end of WoR and that might well strengthen further. If she meets with Elhokar regularly then we'll probably see some connection there. Not just major characters either - everyone she meets with regularly, regardless of age, gender, station etc, as long as she meets them often enough. Unless she really can't stand them that is - the only examples we've seen being Tvlakv and the Ghostbloods (and in their case she did briefly start to make connections).

The upside of this aspect of her is that it enables her to get along with nearly everyone. But it's not harmless. She might well trust others too much. Also, to achieve all those connections she needs certain kinds of social skills, many of which she seems to use naturally/unconsciously but her discussions with Tyn probably helped a lot as well with her doing it consciously. Because she is still doing a lot unconsciously, the situation is ripe for unintended consequences.

Part of the reason why I used the term "connection" is that it's quite neutral. It doesn't imply romance at all. We haven't seen Shallan thinking about love specifically that much. I'm not sure she thinks about it in the same way as most people would. She definitely thinks about relationships a lot though.

In the case of romantic relationships, Shallan's ability to form connections might well mean that she ends up attracting attention from multiple guys. Entirely unintentionally as well. So a "love triangle" might not be the last of it! To be clear, I'm pretty sure she would not want to actually create love triangles (or similar) around her. When she gains more experience then at some point she'll probably realise that she has to be more careful. I also want to make clear that just because she forms a connection with a guy it doesn't automatically mean that they'll fall in love with her - it would be up to the guy in question and the circumstances.

If we could ask Shallan at the end of WoR if she wanted to marry Adolin I'm sure she'd say "yes" without hesitation. But if asked if she loved him I'm not sure what she would say. Because she hasn't thought about it much or discussed this sort of thing much it's hard to be sure. I think it's likely that she would say that she liked him a lot and enjoyed being with him. Her not thinking about love much might be a side-effect of her expectations for marriage for most of her life - that her father would simply pick who she would marry and that would be it. It's also possible that she avoided thinking about it due to the situation with her mother - maybe "love" in general has some background trauma for her? Another possibility is that she thinks about "roles" too much rather than her own desires/feelings. It could also be a combination of factors. It would probably help if she had some discussions on this subject with Navani (would probably help readers understand Shallan better too). Personally, I would say that Shallan is in love with Adolin but doesn't realise it.

So, to summarise a bit: Shallan probably doesn't think of herself as being in love with Adolin (whether it is true or not). Regardless of her relationship with Adolin she would probably not change how she acts with other single guys of a similar age and would want to be friendly with them (though maybe my guess is wrong and she will be cautious due to her relationship with Adolin since we haven't seen Shallan in a situation like this).

So, how would these "other single guys of a similar age" react? I'm not going to try to predict Renarin since we know so little about him. For Kaladin, since he already seems to have budding romantic feelings for Shallan, those feelings would likely develop the more they interact with each other. Of course, there are a lot of unknowns with what the situation is going to be. For Kaladin, he'll be away for some time and maybe his experiences will affect him one way or another in this regard. For Shallan, it's hard to imagine that everything will be fine with Adolin - it's very likely that things will be going from bad to worse (due to Sadeas's death) and though I expect Shallan to fight for Adolin, the situation would likely make her depressed. Maybe Kaladin will come back at the best/worst time (depending on your point of view) and he sees Shallan in low spirits. I think it would unlikely for Kaladin to just ignore Shallan if she was like that. So things could develop from there.

Well, we shall see. But my best guess is that if Shallan ends up in a situation where she ends up wondering who she loves then it would likely be something she started completely unintentionally that snowballed before she realised it.

[Islington]

I would like to point out that unless Kaladin and Adolin have something going on, it's a love angle, not a love triangle. 

[muco]

I some how am not that inclined with Kaladin & Shallan pairing.

For one that means Adolin needs to undergo a certain character change, which would be uncharacteristic of what he is in the first two books.

From my POV, Adolin the is one the most honorable characters written in the books, even more honorable than Kaladin. Adolin from a neutral POV, always did the honorable thing. He gave away shards he earned without any malice or to prove a point like Dalinar did in Book 1.

Adolin is basically what Amaram pretends to be and for him to just become garbage just to pair up Kaladin & Shallan would not smell right.

 

Regarding Adolin killing at the end of book 2, there would be consequences but it won't be from people close to him. Why would Dalinar or Kaladin or any of the radiants have a problem with that? It was a straight up fight and Adolin won. All these people wanted to kill Sadeas through out book 2 and now that it is done, they will turn on the person doing it for them? Of course the politics of the empire would end up doing harm to Adolin.

[Sami]

3 hours ago, muco said:

 Why would Dalinar or Kaladin or any of the radiants have a problem with that? It was a straight up fight and Adolin won. All these people wanted to kill Sadeas through out book 2 and now that it is done, they will turn on the person doing it for them? Of course the politics of the empire would end up doing harm to Adolin.

I don't quite agree with you there. For one, it wasn't a straight up fight, it was a murder in cold blood (well, kinda cold blood). Dalinar and the rest would have a problem with it because regardless on how much they want Sadeas dead, its not right to just up and murder someone like that. (even if he deserved it )

Also, I think that in order to develop his character he needs to change and mature a bit more.

I'm not saying I don't like Adolin though. He's a nice and honorable guy and I certainly don't want him becoming garbage; I just don't agree with what he did.

Edited June 22, 2017 by Edgedancer81

[Guest]

4 hours ago, muco said:

For one that means Adolin needs to undergo a certain character change, which would be uncharacteristic of what he is in the first two books.

Care to elaborate why?

4 hours ago, muco said:

It was a straight up fight and Adolin won.

No it wasn't. It was murder.

Which brings me to this:

4 hours ago, muco said:

From my POV, Adolin the is one the most honorable characters written in the books, even more honorable than Kaladin.

How is cold blooded murder of a highprince honorable?

Disclaimer: I have nothing against Adolin and everything against Sadeas, but you have to see the facts here.

[Toaster Retribution]

2 hours ago, SLNC said:

How is cold blooded murder of a highprince honorable?

Adolin spent the entire book being taunted by Sadeas. But we know that he acts upon emotions. He got angry and things went out of hand. One misstep doesn't stop him from being honorable.

[Sami]

3 hours ago, Toaster Retribution said:

One misstep doesn't stop him from being honorable.

No, but the action was not honourable and will have long-lasting consequences regardless of how much things got out of hand and how much Sadeas deserved it.

 

For me, the reason I am not quite so attached to Adolin is probably because I find his character a bit shallow. I will be very interested to know how this turns out though, and maybe I will become more attached to him as his character develops through the latest events of WoR  

[WhiteLeeopard]

Killing Sadeas had to be done, otherwise he would have stuck around hurting the Radiants authority and that of everyone trying to save the world. I don't see what is dishonorable of getting your hands dirty to do something that needs to be done. It wasn't neat and pretty, but...war and destruction seldom are, and the choices that have to be made aren't always going to be perfect. Adolin may be punished for killing him, but that won't deny that everyone will be able to work much better without Sadeas around trying to go his own way in the best case and assasinate them again in the worst case. 

Of course I suppose the question here can become, what is more important to you, "to be perfectly honorable" or "to save your people".

[Everstorm Entropy]

I love how this topic is almost a year old and still going strong with speculation.  

Overall, I think we're trying to base characters too heavily on singular traits and so we can fit them into how we want to perceive them.  The thing about people (and Sanderson tends to capture this well) is that they're complicated.  They're flawed, and they're unpredictable.  They make mistakes, they change, and they surprise you with their actions.

Yes, Kaladin is hard on himself and brooding, but so much of that changed during WoR.  In fact, the point of his arc within the book was that he needed to give up part of his anger and distaste for the Light Eyes and desire for revenge.  He needed to overcome those feelings to become a Windrunner.  What's to say that Kaladin isn't a very different person next time we meet him in OB?

Adolin is brave, confident, and as a whole a genuinely good person.  But we saw how even someone such as himself can snap and make a rash decision in killing Sadeas.  Will he feel guilty about what he did?  Will he justify it?  Does what he did make him a bad person and undo a life of doing good?  WoB definitely stated that there ARE orders of the KR that would think he was enacting justice by killing Sadeas.  Morality is grey and I think people that think Adolin will go down a "dark path" because of what he did are oversimplifying things.  We're talking about a character that has already killed hundreds, if not thousands in battles, and is also the son of a man who did some terrible things as the Blackthorn in the past.  I don't think the death of one despicable man that was threatening the entire downfall of his family will weigh on him very much.  I don't think there is a "dark path" or a "right path".  Just different perspectives on how we should act.

So what does this mean about the Shallan/Kaladin/Adolin love triangle?  Not sure.  Shallan has also gone through many changes of her own.

I guess I'll give an unpopular opinion and hope that Kaladin sees Loral again and that they get to make up in some capacity.  I know its easy to hate her due to the last interaction we see between her and Kal, but we have to remember that she was very young.  And as we've established, people can change.

[muco]

18 hours ago, Edgedancer81 said:

I don't quite agree with you there. For one, it wasn't a straight up fight, it was a murder in cold blood (well, kinda cold blood). Dalinar and the rest would have a problem with it because regardless on how much they want Sadeas dead, its not right to just up and murder someone like that. (even if he deserved it )

It was a straight up fight between 2 individuals. That Adolin overpowered Sadeas does not make it an unfair fight. 

It's not like Adolin snuck up on Sadeas and back stabbed him. It was close quarters fist fight that ended up with Sadeas being dead. As I recall, it's a very Alethi way of doing things.

Any fight between Adolin & Sadeas whether in that isolated place in Urithru or in front of thousands of people in Areas would not have been a balanced fight. What would have happened if the plan went perfectly and Adolin got Sadeas in the Arena? Yes - Murder of Sadeas. Because it did not happen in an area and a shardblade was not involved, does not make murder of any less of a straight up fight. Murder - yes, definitely and it would still have been a murder if it happened as per the original plan in the arena, simply by fact that Dalinar & Adolin planned it .

I don't see how one goes near a bear, poke it , get killed and complain about not being a straight up fight!

Sadeas wanted a fight. He just didn't expect Adolin to take him on his word and act then and there. If Sadeas was more powerful or had age on his side, it would have been him alive and Adolin dead.

Edited June 22, 2017 by muco

[muco]

15 hours ago, SLNC said:

How is cold blooded murder of a highprince honorable?

It was a fight and Sadeas lost his life. 

In fact Dalinar & Adolin not killing Sadeas after his betrayal is NOT the honorable thing. There is no honor in NOT fighting against injustice. what happened at that time was not honorable. 

If Adolin had let Sadeas live after what Sadeas said he would do, I would consider Adolin to be a coward and without Honor. 

Honor is not just about doing things legally. Honor is also about going against the law or norm when villains like Sadeas use law to shield themselves to kill thousands of people, divide kingdom etc. Where is the honor in letting a vermin live Sadeas live in the first place?

As I recall, through out book 2, Dalinar, Adolin & Kaladin were planning to murder Sadeas, legally. If that is honorable and acceptable, I fail to see how Adolin did is not.

Edited June 22, 2017 by muco