Xaklys

Kaladin and Shallan

390 posts in this topic

17 hours ago, Rob Lucci said:

A more apt comparison is stumbling into the guy who shot your brother in a past war. Because it's war. Literally nothing like a traffic accident.

Sure, the comparison was meant to be relatable to more people.

But It's exceptionally difficult to imagine Shallan being open to a romantic entanglement with the person who killed her brother. Sure she got vaguely over Amaram having killed him, but she still resented him, and that's based on her speculation that her brother was trying to kill him in war. Now that she's part of the Ghostbloods she's likely to discover that Amaram was trying to bring about the desolation and her brother was trying to stop it. You'd figure her feelings might change based on that discovery.

So she'd have to truly and deeply forgive Kaladin from the depths of her soul, she'd have to somehow manage to not bear any resentment or anger towards him for Killing her brother. Not just logically understand that he was acting in his own context as a soldier. I think it'd would be a fools errand to try to make that believable.

That's not even considering Kaladin and his weird world view, I'm not quite certain we know exactly how he feels about the fact that he killed Heleran. It was clearly laid out that Kaladin blame(s?/ed?) Elhokar and Dalinar in some part for the death of Tien (because they sent Roshone out to wreak havoc away from the court), so he's certainly capable of holding something of a grudge for the death of his men that Amaram killed because Heleran was there and had shardplate and was defeated which made Amaram kill them. Kaladin has a very strange view of responsibility and such.

At the top of those things are is the fact that they're diametrical opposites when it comes to Spren and way of viewing the world.

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On 13.5.2017 at 5:25 PM, Rakei said:

Sure, the comparison was meant to be relatable to more people.

But It's exceptionally difficult to imagine Shallan being open to a romantic entanglement with the person who killed her brother. Sure she got vaguely over Amaram having killed him, but she still resented him, and that's based on her speculation that her brother was trying to kill him in war. Now that she's part of the Ghostbloods she's likely to discover that Amaram was trying to bring about the desolation and her brother was trying to stop it. You'd figure her feelings might change based on that discovery.

So she'd have to truly and deeply forgive Kaladin from the depths of her soul, she'd have to somehow manage to not bear any resentment or anger towards him for Killing her brother. Not just logically understand that he was acting in his own context as a soldier. I think it'd would be a fools errand to try to make that believable.

That's not even considering Kaladin and his weird world view, I'm not quite certain we know exactly how he feels about the fact that he killed Heleran. It was clearly laid out that Kaladin blame(s?/ed?) Elhokar and Dalinar in some part for the death of Tien (because they sent Roshone out to wreak havoc away from the court), so he's certainly capable of holding something of a grudge for the death of his men that Amaram killed because Heleran was there and had shardplate and was defeated which made Amaram kill them. Kaladin has a very strange view of responsibility and such.

At the top of those things are is the fact that they're diametrical opposites when it comes to Spren and way of viewing the world.

First of all: It is still not confirmed, whether Helaran is dead or not. All we know is that Kaladin thinks Helaran Davar was the Shardbearer he killed, though because of his maimed face and rather normal features for a Veden man, he couldn't be completely identified. Except by the blade. For all we know Helaran could be a Surgebinder and gave his shards to someone else in the group he was traveling with. Yes, I know the theory is a bit tinfoilhatty, but not implausible. We still haven't seen indisputable evidence, that Helaran is truly dead.

But lets keep Helaran dead for now:

The thing is, would she have known that Kaladin killed Helaran before she met Kaladin, I would have agreed with you, but Shallan is about to see what war really means and IMO has the ability to see, that Kaladin didn't kill Helaran because of personal resentment, though Helaran killing Cenn, basically a reminder of Tien for Kaladin, and other of his men, did fuel Kaladin's actions against Helaran, he didn't feel any hate beforehand. Amaram killed Kaladin's men afterwards, Kaladin resents Amaram as much as Shallan does. Kaladin didn't kill Helaran, because he wanted the shards. Kaladin didn't kill him out of greed. It was an act of war, soldier vs. (super)soldier, simple as that. And I think, that Shallan is able to see that. Remember, she also killed in self-defense, just as Kaladin did, because I have no doubt, that Helaran would have killed him. One way or another, the fact that Kaladin apparently killed Helaran is going to give us some tasty drama.

Oh, Kaladin definitely has a grudge against Amaram. Though he'll have to lay it to rest, lest he betrays his oaths again. "I will protect even those I hate, so long as it is right." Remember? Now, I don't know if protecting Amaram is right, but I am positive, that Kaladin will be more careful now, having killed Syl once already.

I really don't see it being a problem, that they seem to be opposites. Maybe we'll get some squabbling between Syl and Pattern, but I don't think it would be that major. In the end, they both have the same overall goal. Saving the world. I don't think, that world-views and ideologies are that important anymore.

Edited by SLNC
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Now I haven't read WOK in a hot while, but I remember Kaladin killing Helaren for revenge

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4 minutes ago, forgedpig said:

Now I haven't read WOK in a hot while, but I remember Kaladin killing Helaren for revenge

Because he killed some of his men. Especially because he killed Cenn. War is war.

Edited by SLNC
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13 hours ago, SLNC said:

The thing is, would she have known that Kaladin killed Helaran before she met Kaladin, I would have agreed with you, but Shallan is about to see what war really means and IMO has the ability to see, that Kaladin didn't kill Helaran because of personal resentment, though Helaran killing Cenn, basically a reminder of Tien for Kaladin, and other of his men, did fuel Kaladin's actions against Helaran, he didn't feel any hate beforehand. Amaram killed Kaladin's men afterwards, Kaladin resents Amaram as much as Shallan does. Kaladin didn't kill Helaran, because he wanted the shards. Kaladin didn't kill him out of greed. It was an act of war, soldier vs. (super)soldier, simple as that. And I think, that Shallan is able to see that. Remember, she also killed in self-defense, just as Kaladin did, because I have no doubt, that Helaran would have killed him. One way or another, the fact that Kaladin apparently killed Helaran is going to give us some tasty drama.

I agree though I think things have already progressed a bit more than what you suggest here. Quoting from WoR chapter 64:

Quote

Shallan felt an immediate anger at seeing her brother’s murderer here, but found that it had quieted somewhat. A smoldering loathing instead of an intense hatred. It had been a long time since she’d seen Helaran, now. And Balat had a point in that her older brother had abandoned them.

To try to kill this man, apparently—or so she’d been able to put together from what she’d read of Amaram and his Shardblade. Why had Helaran gone to kill this man? And could she really blame Amaram when, in truth, he’d probably just been defending himself?

She felt like she knew so little. Though Amaram was still a bastard, of course.

Shallan's anger towards Amaram is already attenuating and she's able to see his perspective (or at least, she is attempting to guess). But there's still an undercurrent of anger there. It's hard to imagine Shallan being harsher on Kaladin, unless he does something significant to anger her on top of this.

Another thing to bear in mind is that Helaran's death lead to Shallan's father taking action. (Or if you want to be pedantic, him hearing that Helaran had died "on a battlefield in Alethkar"). So Kaladin's actions not only killed Helaran but indirectly lead to the death of Shallan's step-mother and father and also to Balat becoming a cripple. I'm not blaming Kaladin for the secondary effects and I don't think Shallan will either but I do think she'll make sure that Kaladin is aware of this. If my theory that Kaladin's next Oath is about "proportionality" (or trying to keep killing to a bare minimum) then it could even lead to his next Oath as he reflects on the potential consequences of "killing to protect".

Anyway, I expect that when Shallan eventually confronts Kaladin about killing Helaran that she will be quite "sharp" about it and there will definitely be some anger there but probably not as much as Kaladin expects (ie not as much if their positions were reversed). I do expect Shallan to make Kaladin clearly explain everything that happened. I think the fact that he made no attempt to benefit from killing Helaran (by turning down the Shards) and even got turned into a slave as "thanks" for saving Amaram will help take the edge off things - Shallan would probably be able to understand Kaladin better from all this.

Of course there might well be other things going on that could complicate things further. Anyway, I'd be quite surprised if Shallan bore a long term grudge against Kaladin or made any attempt at actual revenge - given the circumstances she just seems unlikely to do this given her character.

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12 hours ago, kari-no-sugata said:

I think the fact that he made no attempt to benefit from killing Helaran (by turning down the Shards) and even got turned into a slave as "thanks" for saving Amaram will help take the edge off things - Shallan would probably be able to understand Kaladin better from all this.

Yes. I think that too. Especially help her understand, why he hates (most) lighteyes. I also think, that he might have told her about the Roshone situation in Hearthstone as well by then.

Edited by SLNC
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I get the feeling Shallan will take the fact that Kaladin killed Heleran worse than when she thought Amaram did. At the end of the day, a betrayal from someone you're close to will always hurt more than from some random person and after the chasm scene, she had definitely bonded with Kaladin. Also, not having told her when he figured it out probably won't help the matter, either. 

Now, whether this situation will give them a chance to become closer or split them apart I'm not sure, but if I were to guess I'd say that by the time they talk it out they'll be more attached to each other than before.

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1 hour ago, geralt said:

I get the feeling Shallan will take the fact that Kaladin killed Heleran worse than when she thought Amaram did. At the end of the day, a betrayal from someone you're close to will always hurt more than from some random person and after the chasm scene, she had definitely bonded with Kaladin. Also, not having told her when he figured it out probably won't help the matter, either. 

Now, whether this situation will give them a chance to become closer or split them apart I'm not sure, but if I were to guess I'd say that by the time they talk it out they'll be more attached to each other than before.

Look. The point is, that Kaladin did not betray Shallan. He didn't know, who this guy in the Shardplate was, he didn't even know Shallan exists at this point. This is not betrayal. If anything it would be coming clean. If Shallan can't see that, then she is not the rational person I am reading since about 2000 pages.

Why should he have told her it immediately? Even though I am of the opinion, that Shallan and Kaladin have shown some kind of chemistry down in the chasm and that he probably could have told her, but I also think, that, first, he was exhausted and, second, having just survived an chasmfiend attack and a chasm flood, he probably didn't want to put more tension on the situation. He also enjoyed it, you know. Maybe he wanted to tell her after the chasm thing, but then the Everstorm happened. Both of them have been kinda busy and if Shallan holds that against Kaladin, then I would be very surprised.

And Balat wasn't wrong, to be honest. Helaran betrayed them, abandoned them. Yes, of course, they are kin and knowing a man, you like, you might even be sexually attracted to, has killed your brother hurts, but there is a difference between war and cold-blooded murder. If anything Helaran himself is the one at fault. For abandoning his family and going to war. There always was the possiblility, that he dies. Shallan even acknowledges, that whoever killed Helaran probably did it in self-defense and she really can't blame him for that. Of course, she thinks Amaram is a bastard, but I really think, that she doesn't think the same about Kaladin. Even him telling her about his guilt wouldn't blemish that. If anything, I think, it would raise her opinion of him, because he deemed it important enough, that she knew, who really killed Helaran. That's how I think Shallan would think. Like Balat said, Helaran abandoned him and was so detached from his family. She has long grieved for him and certainly isn't burning for revenge for him.

Edited by SLNC
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How exactly Shallan might react to the whole situation is hard to say since a lot of it depends upon the timing and what else happens. In my previous post I said that "Of course there might well be other things going on that could complicate things further" - the most obvious one would be that once Shallan finds out about Kaladin's actions she should also quickly realise that he knew but didn't tell her.

I think the best case for Kaladin is Shallan finds out very quickly - since Kaladin is likely going to be away for weeks, that would give Shallan plenty of times to come to terms with it. I can easily see her being quite annoyed immediately on finding out but given that she has her own secrets, in this scenario I don't think it would be that significant. The worst case by far is if Kaladin tries to pursue Shallan romantically and it comes out after some time. I would say that would likely be very damaging. (This is not to say that Shallan doesn't have her own secrets that could bite her hard, eg the Ghostbloods, but I would expect her to pay a price for that)

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14 hours ago, kari-no-sugata said:

I think the best case for Kaladin is Shallan finds out very quickly - since Kaladin is likely going to be away for weeks, that would give Shallan plenty of times to come to terms with it. I can easily see her being quite annoyed immediately on finding out but given that she has her own secrets, in this scenario I don't think it would be that significant. The worst case by far is if Kaladin tries to pursue Shallan romantically and it comes out after some time. I would say that would likely be very damaging.

I do agree, but my biggest hope still is, that Helaran is alive and somehow finds his way to Urithiru, because the only way I could see him being alive is him being a Surgebinder, because he wouldn't have unbonded with his Shardblade otherwise. Maybe Kaladin even is the one, who "discovers" him or maybe he is with Nale. Helaran is such a mystery still and I can't wait for the resolution. I really can't shake the feeling, that his death was just a ruse by Brandon.

Edited by SLNC
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On 5/17/2017 at 4:58 AM, SLNC said:

Look. The point is, that Kaladin did not betray Shallan. He didn't know, who this guy in the Shardplate was, he didn't even know Shallan exists at this point. This is not betrayal. If anything it would be coming clean. If Shallan can't see that, then she is not the rational person I am reading since about 2000 pages.

Why should he have told her it immediately? Even though I am of the opinion, that Shallan and Kaladin have shown some kind of chemistry down in the chasm and that he probably could have told her, but I also think, that, first, he was exhausted and, second, having just survived an chasmfiend attack and a chasm flood, he probably didn't want to put more tension on the situation. He also enjoyed it, you know. Maybe he wanted to tell her after the chasm thing, but then the Everstorm happened. Both of them have been kinda busy and if Shallan holds that against Kaladin, then I would be very surprised.

And Balat wasn't wrong, to be honest. Helaran betrayed them, abandoned them. Yes, of course, they are kin and knowing a man, you like, you might even be sexually attracted to, has killed your brother hurts, but there is a difference between war and cold-blooded murder. If anything Helaran himself is the one at fault. For abandoning his family and going to war. There always was the possiblility, that he dies. Shallan even acknowledges, that whoever killed Helaran probably did it in self-defense and she really can't blame him for that. Of course, she thinks Amaram is a bastard, but I really think, that she doesn't think the same about Kaladin. Even him telling her about his guilt wouldn't blemish that. If anything, I think, it would raise her opinion of him, because he deemed it important enough, that she knew, who really killed Helaran. That's how I think Shallan would think. Like Balat said, Helaran abandoned him and was so detached from his family. She has long grieved for him and certainly isn't burning for revenge for him.

Thank you!!! This sums up my feelings on this subject almost perfectly. Though I do believe that there might be a little bit of drama, but to all honesty, Kaladin was completely justified. When someone starts hacking the men you know and love. You fight to protect them, that's part of his oaths. Still, Shallan might not see it that way at first, but I don't think it will last very long at all.

Another factor is Pattern. He's extremely logical, and being that he's Shallan's spren she'll end up hearing him out at first. A very big factor is also very dependent on the situation. If Kaladin tells her, than she will probably forgive him quickly. Maybe even immediately, which would give me a lot more respect for her, not that I don't already. If she figures out on her own however, I think it will be much worse and longer, and Kaladin will have to give a heartfelt apology. Though I think he should do that anyway, even if he is justified. Something about the statement. "Hey I killed your brother but I'm not sorry." just doesn't sound like something Kaladin would say. 

As for Heleran being alive, ya I'm hopeful to, though I don't think it is a necessity for Kaladin and Shallan's relationship. Still I would like him to be alive, if anything just for the way he'd add to the plot.

 

And for the whole topic of Kaladin and Shallan. I haven't read the whole eleven pages of posts, but as for my vote, I'm an enormous fan of Shalladin

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I like the idea of Shalladin, and I think it could play out pretty well. It seems like they'd be perfect for each other, in that whole "opposites attract" cliché kind of way. However, I honestly really like Shadolin better. I don't know why, but Shallan and Adolin seem perfect for each other. Maybe that's the point, to make them seem too perfect. 

Either way, I'll be happy with whichever ship becomes canon.

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I don't think Kal will actively pursue her. I think there was a mutual attraction enhanced by the soul sharing and adrenaline. 

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7 hours ago, AerionBFII said:

I don't think Kal will actively pursue her. I think there was a mutual attraction enhanced by the soul sharing and adrenaline. 

And when they see one another, they will remember that attraction. How do you think people start loving one another?

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 I never said  there's no chemistry there, I said I doubted Kal would actively pursue Shallan. I just don't think Kal is the type of guy to chase his friend's (however rocky their relationship started) betrothed and I don't think Shallan would risk breaking an incredibly beneficial engagement that her family desperately needs.

 

 

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7 hours ago, AerionBFII said:

incredibly beneficial engagement that her family desperately needs.

Not anymore.

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Right now its hard to predict how the realtioships between Kaladin, Adolin and Shallan will turn out.

If i correctly analyze the WoR, Adolin seriously crushed, finding in Shallan something to live for due to the complex of her features: her intelligence, stormy yet calm personality and beauty. She is interesting and full of unexplored mysteries. Thats what attract him in opposite to usual "oh, prince, im all yours" Rosharian girls. Its a pretty good and common reason to love a girl.

Shallan attracted to Adolin cause he is hot. Yes, Sanderson also mentioned she likes him for who he is - with kind heart, not very brilliant yet a nice guy, but he did it in such manner that it looks like absolutely last importan thing, while physical attraction is the main anchor for her attraction. During the reading of WoR i didnt get the feeling she really loves Adolin. Maybe its Sanderson's mistake but i lean towards intentional choice.

In other words, Adolin and Shallan dont have something deeper and substantial for their love to be believable, mainly on Shallan's side.

What about Kaladin? Sanderson didnt give any direct statements about Kaladin's love, just gave some bits that hint on him being hit by Shallan. Interestingly, the reasons are simiilar to Adolin's. Kaladin attracted to Shallan cause her intelligence, beauty and the fusion of her stormy and calm character. The only addition is that he has one more thing to care about her - its her really strong will. I mean that scene in chasms when "she smiles anyway". Thats what hit him the most. Her strong will. Thats the trait that made him admire her, respect her and want to protect her.

Sanderson wasnt that kind describing Shallan's feelings towards Kaladin, yet he made her opinion about Kaladin look more relevant than her opinion about Adolin, closer to the end of the WoR. While Adolin's "kind heart and nice guy" looked like some nice yet not that important addition to his hot appearance, Kaladin's description sounded like something improtant to her, something to be excited about.

In other words the base for Shallan's attraction towards Adolin is mainly physical attractiveness, while the base for attraction towards Kaladin is mainly personality and inner traits, though she also find him pretty attractive.

What also matters is that Shallan and Kaladin in a couple day became closer to each other, than Adolin and Shallan managed to do in a weeks. I dont mean its the most improtant thing, and there were mainly circumstances that forced them to open to each other, not some "love", but right now, i think, Shallan and Kaladin ship went further than Shallan and Adolin's one. Maybe in OB Shadolin ship will cut the distance between them, who knows.

Btw, i find Adolin's last action in WoR is positive for Shallan and Adolin ship, not negative. It will help with their relationships.

 

Edited by Harbour
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@Harbour

I agree with most of your points, but want to put some more emphasis on one thing:

After the chasm, both Shallan's opinion and Kaladin's opinion of each other took a complete 180. Where was only contempt, as in Kaladin thinking, that Shallan was just the typical lighteyed noblewoman, who looks down on everyone, especially darkeyes and, as in Shallan thinking, that Kaladin was just some darkeyes, who she could make fun of and annoy, now is admiration. The chasm scene was quite literally a turning point in their relationship.

I've stated this before, but I think, that Shallan is already caught up in an inner conflict between Kaladin or Adolin, but represses it, by ignoring it and playing the good betrothed to Adolin. She's prone to lying, especially to herself. And I think it shows again. This is a main character trait of her!

Kaladin begins to harbor feelings for her aswell, not just attraction(!), but also chooses to repress them, because of his budding friendship to Adolin. He's too honorable. Once again, his main character trait.

I also agree, that you can't say that Shallan and Kaladin have fallen in love in the chasm. But I'd also say, that they didn't have to tell so much about each other. They did anyway. I'd not call it "love", but "mutual interest", the stuff from which attraction and love are born. To put it into another perspective, it was like a first date under very, very peculiar circumstances. Regarding Shadolin's progression in OB? I think Adolin will storm it up himself. It's already starting, him having self-doubts about his place beside Shallan, now that she is a Radiant. He'll distance himself. On the other hand, Kaladin and Shallan will naturally grow closer, since they now have to work together as Radiants. Oh, and like @Rob Lucci said, I am certain they will have not forgotten the chasm.

Edited by SLNC
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Everyone shipping kalidin with shallen and I'm over here shipping him and Jenet.

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I'm always hoping for Adolin with Shallan but Kalidin is the main hero so he probably has the inside track.

However, now we have Jasnah back. Shallan may say "bye to the boys" and follow her mentor into battle. They are at war and under duress and Adolin still has the killing of Sadeus to deal with. All of them may be off on their own quests.

 

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Shallan x Jasnah, of course :ph34r:

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Somehow I cannot see Adolin and Shallan sticking together for much longer. I feel like Shallan doesn't deserve such a nice honest guy like him ;)

But yeah, I LOVE Kaladin and Shalladin so if Shadolin sticks I will be super sad :(  (unless another awesome girl shows up and makes Kaladin happy)

Edited by Edgedancer81
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1 hour ago, Edgedancer81 said:

Somehow I cannot see Adolin and Shallan sticking together for much longer. I feel like Shallan doesn't deserve such a nice honest guy like him ;)

But yeah, I LOOVEE Kaladin and Shalladin so if Shadolin sticks I will cry :(  (unless another awesome girl shows up and makes Kaladin happy)

Mind if i ask your reasoning for this? I'd personally prefer Adolin x Shallan. She was unbearable in the first 90% of WOK but she grew on me after she actually started doing stuff. Kaladin is by far my favourite character but im pretty indifferent towards Adolin i don't really like him but i don't dislike him. 

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In general, I try to be flexible on supporting or shipping relationships. I want to see fresh, interesting and/or exciting relationships between interesting characters. And when I say "relationship" I mean in the general sense, it doesn't necessarily have to be a romantic relationship. I also prefer to stick to the canon (though playful speculation is fine) or where I think the canon is going. I also dislike the idea of pairing up everyone just for the sake of it.

So anyway: I think Kaladin and Shallan could have a quite interesting relationship going forwards but it doesn't necessarily have to be romantic. I remember a time when I saw many posters say they could have a sibling like relationship but I don't see that so much any more. I would be fine with something like that. There's several reasons why I'm not that excited about them having a romantic relationship.

Firstly, Shallan is with Adolin right now which I find interesting and I'd like it to continue. It would also be a bit of a worrying trend for Shallan to have a romantic relationship of some degree with three different people in three books. Although Shallan and Adolin's relationship gets written off as "shallow" quite often, to me, having a romantic relationship that starts from "love at first sight" actually feels quite fresh and interesting, and their deepening relationship has been enjoyable to read. Naturally there's going to be some bumps in the road either way but I hope to see them come out stronger for it.

Secondly, I've gotten quite bored with romantic relationships starting from "hate-hate" (or mutual dislike) - it's been done way too much. It's not like a relationship has to go from one extreme to another to be legitimate.

Thirdly, I don't think Kaladin is ready for a proper romantic relationship (though obviously things can change). I don't mean he can't fall in love or something like that - rather, he's poor at relationships in general except with his fellow soldiers. Because of that I find it hard to be enthusiastic about Kaladin having a mutual romantic relationship with anyone right now (one-sided is fine) because it doesn't feel like it would be too much fun. I hope to see Kaladin improve on this longer term and I certainly support him finding real romance at some point.

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On 6/13/2017 at 8:18 AM, Rob Lucci said:

Shallan x Jasnah, of course :ph34r:

I'm looking forwards to them meeting again. I have this image in my head of lots of people being around Jasnah, but mostly being a bit hesitant to get close (except Navani)... and then Shallan suddenly comes running in a gives Jasnah a huge hug :)

That being said, it's probably safe to say a romantic relationship between the two is very unlikely to happen (except in fanfics) but that doesn't mean they can't have a close relationship. For Jasnah, I think she struggles a lot with relationships - she herself probably doesn't mind too much but it would probably be better for her to be closer to other people and Shallan should be good for her in that regard. In Shallan's case, she still has a lot of learning to do and skills to develop - and also friends to make (since actually Shallan is rather short on friends).

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