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Kaladin and Shallan


Xaklys

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22 hours ago, YKDG22 said:

I get the feeling that Adolin is going to die by the end of book 5. Either redeeming himself publicly to the high princes against the Voidbringers or on the run(in exile). I think this is the easy way to allow the Kaladin/Shallan romance, because no love triangle and no Dalinar/Kaladin awkardness or bad blood over the relationship. Adolin seems like a likely good guy character to be killed off. He's significant, but not necessarily important. Sanderson can kill off a good guy that will sting readers(maybe not all) that doesn't really seem to have a large effect to the primary characters of the story. His biggest role was killing Sadeas and I believe it will lead to his demise(one way or the other).

Killing Adolin would be about the worst narrative choice Brandon could make for the future of Stormlight Archive. Exchanging one of your most popular character for a "shocking moment" where readers wonder, for a few seconds, if you really truly did kill him is a poor trade. It is an even poorer trade if your sole reason to do it is to allow a romantic ship to sail without any foreseen issues. Truth is, independently of the original planning, readers like Adolin. Readers want to read more of Adolin, not less, worst, readers expect to read more of him.

I do not know what Brandon will choose to do with Adolin, I do not know if he will allow the character to grow despite not having planned him to, but I do know the character works well within the main narrative. Adolin adds drama, he creates relationships where there were none, he raises the stakes and he steers the story into unpredictable avenues. Getting rid of his character would be a terrible, terrible idea, not to forget the mere fact, readers want to read more of Adolin.

I will also echo @kari-no-sugata: What does Adolin have to redeem himself for? For having murdered the man responsible for the death of 6000 soldiers? For having refused to allow the death of the sons, the brothers, the fathers, the husbands of his people to be forgotten? To have them die doe something?

Here is an alternate perspective on the event at hand, it isn't Adolin who needs redemption, but Dalinar.

Dalinar is the one who allowed his men to be slaughtered. Sure he didn't betray anyone, but he refuses to pay heed to his son's warnings, to his pleas to be careful around Sadeas, preferring trusting visions only a half-crazed fool would take for truth than his own common sense. He could have trusted Sadeas and yet refuse to have him control the bridges, he could have been careful enough to avoid being trapped. 

Dalinar is also the one who refused to deal with Sadeas, who was reluctant to deal with Sadeas because of an old friendship long since gone. 

All in all, Dalinar is the one who failed his men as a Highprince and who failed Adolin as a father... Has anyone considered he might be the one needing to redeem himself? Adolin's actions are multi-factorial, yes he has one share of responsibility, but Dalinar also has his share.

22 hours ago, YKDG22 said:

I think Kaladin/Shallan have a pretty decent shot of working out. They could have their viewpoints and not be terribly repetitive(always in same place). Kaladin could be out on the warfront for significant chunks of time and Shallan could be with Dalinar/Navani working on the finer points of learning about the voidbringers/strategy and ghostblood activity. I think it was significant that in the chasms Shallan(a liar) told Kaladin truths about her past and he knows her better than Adolin. Shallan/Kaladin may end up a strong friendship but romantic relationship seems more likely to me at this point. I don't think they will be romantic for a while though, just more getting to know each other in the interim.

I think Kaladin and Shallan would not work out in the long run. I don't see them growing into wanting the same things. I will also echo @kari-no-sugata thoughts, Shallan has always been the one to care for others, to give up her life for others: I feel she has pass this phase of her life. Unfortunately, Kaladin is the kind of man who would need a woman ready to do just that. Any relationship he'll ever be in will demand great sacrifice from the other party and I just can't/won't want to see Shallan being put again in this position.

I also disagree Shallan telling the truth to Kaladin, when their life depended on her honesty, is a sign of instant chemistry. They were stuck down in a chasm, they thought they would die, frankness was required. It wasn't because it was Kaladin, it was because it was needed. 

4 hours ago, kari-no-sugata said:

It sometimes feels like I should never say never with Shallan but if she consider how she attracted to Kabsal and Adolin, they were both friendly, positive though somewhat self-deprecating, relaxed and good conversationalists. When Shallan was with Kaladin, she spent a lot of time complaining about him being negative and tense. Renarin seems even worse. Shallan is definitely capable of liking difficult people (eg Jasnah) but it seems a heck of a lot harder...

Kasbal and Adolin are perhaps a sign of the kind of men Shallan is attracted to. She got to spend time with both and she liked both. Kaladin, she never really spent time with him: they were stuck once down in a chasm, they were forced to work together: it does not mean they would appreciate each other within normal circumstances, not in a romantic way this is.

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12 hours ago, maxal said:

Dalinar is the one who allowed his men to be slaughtered. Sure he didn't betray anyone, but he refuses to pay heed to his son's warnings, to his pleas to be careful around Sadeas, preferring trusting visions only a half-crazed fool would take for truth than his own common sense. He could have trusted Sadeas and yet refuse to have him control the bridges, he could have been careful enough to avoid being trapped. 

Dalinar is also the one who refused to deal with Sadeas, who was reluctant to deal with Sadeas because of an old friendship long since gone. 

All in all, Dalinar is the one who failed his men as a Highprince and who failed Adolin as a father... Has anyone considered he might be the one needing to redeem himself? Adolin's actions are multi-factorial, yes he has one share of responsibility, but Dalinar also has his share.

He was right to trust the visions as we now know. He didn't want to deal with Sadeas, because if he has to unite, he has to trust. Sure, chose the wrong person to trust, but I think it's too easy to just put the blame on Dalinar.

It's easy to blame Dalinar now, but, if you look from his perspective, he tried to do the right thing. He has these visions about how he has to unite his people. Now, his problem is that the Alethi people are competitive and distrustful by nature. Even if he believed Adolin, what would have had him do? Accuse Sadeas on a hunch? Waltz into his warcamp and stab him with Oathbringer? This would just sow even more discord and make his job of uniting his people 100 times more difficult - and it's storming difficult already. Yes, Sadeas and Dalinar had a falling out, but Dalinar was sure Sadeas is patriotic enough to not move against his people. He obviously was wrong, but I don't blame him for not blindly following Adolin's accusations. Adolin did not have to make the hard decisions, Dalinar had to. He chose wrong, but hindsight is always 20/20.

I didn't even think of the possibility, that this could bring father and son closer. Maybe they try to cope with it together, since they both have a share of responsibility, like you said. Dalinar failed his men and maybe he failed his son, but eventhough I despise Sadeas, I don't know what I would have done in Dalinar's place. Contempt must not impair the judgement of a leader. If Adolin needs public redemption, will depend on Alethi law. I think, what's going to be worse is redeeming himself from himself. And maybe Dalinar can help him with that, because I think he loves Adolin and is not a bad father. He just made some bad decisions in the recent past.

12 hours ago, maxal said:

I think Kaladin and Shallan would not work out in the long run. I don't see them growing into wanting the same things. I will also echo @kari-no-sugata thoughts, Shallan has always been the one to care for others, to give up her life for others: I feel she has pass this phase of her life. Unfortunately, Kaladin is the kind of man who would need a woman ready to do just that. Any relationship he'll ever be in will demand great sacrifice from the other party and I just can't/won't want to see Shallan being put again in this position.

I don't think, that Kaladin would need a woman, who would value self-sacrifice. Actually I think it is quite the opposite and he is the kind of sucidal idiot, who would do anything to save his loved ones and is happy, when they are safe. Could you elaborate, why you think that, because I don't really see it?

12 hours ago, maxal said:

I also disagree Shallan telling the truth to Kaladin, when their life depended on her honesty, is a sign of instant chemistry. They were stuck down in a chasm, they thought they would die, frankness was required. It wasn't because it was Kaladin, it was because it was needed.

It wasn't needed. She could have told half-truths and the result would have stayed the some. Shallan is a compulsive liar, hell, she lies to herself about her past. With Kaladin she just was plain honest for once, which doesn't happen often with her. For me, it's a sign of chemistry, because she normally doesn't really open up emotionally. She maintains her facade masterfully, but never really shows her real emotions. She doesn't talk about how broken she actually is, but with Kaladin she just did. And he didn't even ask for it, well, not directly. Yes, revealing Pattern to Kaladin was just for survival, but that's not what I see as chemistry, it's what happened before and after that in the alcove, because by that time they were safe, but she still tells him, that she killed her own father. She still tells him about her troubled and abusive childhood. She still tells him about the death of her mother. She trusts him.

12 hours ago, maxal said:

Kasbal and Adolin are perhaps a sign of the kind of men Shallan is attracted to. She got to spend time with both and she liked both. Kaladin, she never really spent time with him: they were stuck once down in a chasm, they were forced to work together: it does not mean they would appreciate each other within normal circumstances, not in a romantic way this is.

Yeah, right. When would have there been the possibility? Kabsal specifically sought her out to get close on Jasnah and Adolin and her are in a causal. Of course, they are bound to spend more time, than Kaladin and her. That they got off on the wrong foot didn't make it easier. Let them spend time together, before you judge the possible nature of their relationship. Not every romantic relationship is love at first sight.

Edited by SLNC
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A little note in advance: I feel like I've been dissing Kaladin and Renarin a lot in posts lately and it feels a bit unfair. However, all characters have various flaws and those flaws show up in different circumstances. Some character flaws would particularly affect their chances of having a stable, long-term romantic relationship and since that's the topic of this thread then it's particularly relevant. Just because I'm pointing out these flaws doesn't mean that I dislike the characters overall or anything like that. I also expect these flaws to change this time - characters will grow, come to realise their flaws and so on. So what could happen in the next book or two would be rather different to what could happen in 10 years time, for example.

But anyway...

When it comes to Kaladin, I certainly think he'll have trouble with long term romance with what we've seen to date. One big problem for Kaladin is that he's basically a workaholic - his work/life balance is terrible. Even when his men drag him to the pub he's still thinking about work. Even Syl complains about this aspect of him. To put it bluntly, that's not conducive to a long term romantic relationship. So for him to form a long term romantic relationship I think it would require something major: (1) he loses his "job" and has nothing he needs to do, (2) he falls completely head-of-heels in love to the extent that his entire personality changes (3) the other party is someone he regularly meets while working, (4) meet someone who is happy to have such a relationship, (5) he stops being a workaholic.

For the above, (1) seems unlikely since he's currently the most combat orientated Radiant, (2) rather improbable and would feel "forced" within the story, (3) would depend a lot upon the circumstances and workplace relationships aren't the most stable either, (4) is also rather improbably and liable to feel "forced" within the story (5) it seems too ingrained in him to change quickly.

This is part of the reason why I previously posted that one reason I'm not too keen on Kaladin x Shallan is it seems likely that Shallan would be the one having the make the sacrifices.

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Kaladin wasn't always like this... Tien's death was his breaking point and Tarah was the person, who helped him before he worked himself to death. He can be changed.

And I don't know why two caring persons can't look out for each other, without having it called a sacrifice.

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Personally I think everyone has potential for a loving relationship if that's what they want. They all have their issues: Adolin serial dates but never settles down, Renarin is socially awkward and insecure, Shallan keeps secrets from everyone, Kaladin obsesses on his duty to protect people. I don't see any of these as insurmountable obstacles, either in the near or far future. The fun part is seeing how each of them evolve, and how it changes their interactions. I'd be interested any relationships that develops so long as they don't all hate each other. I love them all and want them to be content (cue sappy music).

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14 hours ago, SLNC said:

He was right to trust the visions as we now know. He didn't want to deal with Sadeas, because if he has to unite, he has to trust. Sure, chose the wrong person to trust, but I think it's too easy to just put the blame on Dalinar.

It's easy to blame Dalinar now, but, if you look from his perspective, he tried to do the right thing. He has these visions about how he has to unite his people. Now, his problem is that the Alethi people are competitive and distrustful by nature. Even if he believed Adolin, what would have had him do? Accuse Sadeas on a hunch? Waltz into his warcamp and stab him with Oathbringer? This would just sow even more discord and make his job of uniting his people 100 times more difficult - and it's storming difficult already. Yes, Sadeas and Dalinar had a falling out, but Dalinar was sure Sadeas is patriotic enough to not move against his people. He obviously was wrong, but I don't blame him for not blindly following Adolin's accusations. Adolin did not have to make the hard decisions, Dalinar had to. He chose wrong, but hindsight is always 20/20.

There are countless of decisions Dalinar could have taken which would have prevent the Tower massacre. The most obvious one would have been not to trust visions he received while trashing helplessly during Highstorm: being convinced they are real is one thing, trusting your personal interpretation of those visions and basing your decision making which affects your entire princedom on it is quite another. In shorts, Dalinar wanted to trust Sadeas, he didn't want to listen to his son, so he found the path which allowed him to do it, guilt free. Had he been a different man, the fact he allowed for his army to be trapped would have weighted heavily on him, but Dalinar feels he was justified to do so because his understanding told him it was alright. The issue with Dalinar's reasoning is he basically got his vision to tell him what he wanted to hear, just as Kaladin takes the elements out of Dalinar's tale about Roshone which suits him to justify wanting to murder the king. In both case, both characters are guilty of allowing their own desire prime over facts.

Dalinar might have thought Sadeas was faithful to the kingdom, but given his history, he was a fool to think this kingdom would automatically include him and his nephew. 

It is thus, what Dalinar should have done is not putting his army in a state of dependency with Sadeas's army. This was basic decision making. The fact nobody seems to blame Dalinar for it has always baffled me. He didn't need to take action against Sadeas, this was not required nor justified, at the time, but he could have just kept the door open to see if the man truly was trustworthy. In shorts, you don't just trust a man because a stupid vision tells you to. You have a brain, you have agency, you think if you ought to, you do not take chances with the life of 10 000 of your men not to forget the life of your son. I was always sadden to hear Dalinar regret he would be leaving Renarin unprepared to take over the princedom while not having one thought for having sacrificed Adolin's life as well.

14 hours ago, SLNC said:

I didn't even think of the possibility, that this could bring father and son closer. Maybe they try to cope with it together, since they both have a share of responsibility, like you said. Dalinar failed his men and maybe he failed his son, but eventhough I despise Sadeas, I don't know what I would have done in Dalinar's place. Contempt must not impair the judgement of a leader. If Adolin needs public redemption, will depend on Alethi law. I think, what's going to be worse is redeeming himself from himself. And maybe Dalinar can help him with that, because I think he loves Adolin and is not a bad father. He just made some bad decisions in the recent past.

My personal thoughts are they both failed at something they each hold in high importance. Adolin failed at being the son his father wanted and Dalinar failed at being the right father for Adolin. It is something I see them eventually acknowledge. Dalinar has to acknowledge he has been too hard on his eldest just as Adolin has to acknowledge he needs to learn how to control his too strong emotions. He has to accept his father's help and his father has to offer it. All in all, Adolin has to accept he can't always be the strong one just as Dalinar has to accept he was wrong to ask it of Adolin.

I can definitely see the event as a way for father and son to bond. We keep on thinking it will draw a wedge in between them, but what if it doesn't? After the initial anger and the first fall-out, what if, ultimately, it brings them closer? What if killing Sadeas is what they both need to move out of the "I order, you obey" relationship they currently have?

15 hours ago, SLNC said:

I don't think, that Kaladin would need a woman, who would value self-sacrifice. Actually I think it is quite the opposite and he is the kind of sucidal idiot, who would do anything to save his loved ones and is happy, when they are safe. Could you elaborate, why you think that, because I don't really see it?

I didn't mean sacrifice, but a woman willing to follow him, to put being with him as her only ambition. A Min. He would need a Min. Also, I wouldn't say Kaladin is a suicidal idiot. Yes, he puts his life in danger, but only when required in order to maintain his oaths, only to protect those he sworn he would protect. None of his behavior strikes to me as suicidal nor needlessly dangerous: he is a soldier having sworn to protect others and as such, there will be situations where his life might be endangered. I would say Adolin's life is being endangered more often, in a more steady manner and he doesn't get to heal himself.

As for happiness, I think we should refrain ourselves from thinking being in a working relationship is the sole requirement for happiness. Kaladin's happiness has never passed through fulfillment within inter-personal relationships: he doesn't care for them most of the time. His happiness, I believe he will find it in staying true to his word, in finding how he can both be a soldier and a protector and out of knowing he has done right by those he gave his words too. 

15 hours ago, SLNC said:

It wasn't needed. She could have told half-truths and the result would have stayed the some. Shallan is a compulsive liar, hell, she lies to herself about her past. With Kaladin she just was plain honest for once, which doesn't happen often with her. For me, it's a sign of chemistry, because she normally doesn't really open up emotionally. She maintains her facade masterfully, but never really shows her real emotions. She doesn't talk about how broken she actually is, but with Kaladin she just did. And he didn't even ask for it, well, not directly. Yes, revealing Pattern to Kaladin was just for survival, but that's not what I see as chemistry, it's what happened before and after that in the alcove, because by that time they were safe, but she still tells him, that she killed her own father. She still tells him about her troubled and abusive childhood. She still tells him about the death of her mother. She trusts him.

There are a myriads of reasons which explain why Shallan told Kaladin the truth, down in the chasm. The most obvious one is she needed to: she had to disclose the fact she had both Pattern and a fantastic memory. It was a matter of survival. Once the first and most daunting secret was out, it was much easier to tell the rest of it. One thing we have to keep in mind is Shallan hasn't been able to be honest with anyone so far: the stakes have always been too high. She could never jeopardize her achievements for the sake of honesty: it must have been hard to bear. However, down there, in the chasm, it didn't matter anymore. What were the stakes? Their survival. Getting to work with this unpleasant man. She could have told half-truth, but she wouldn't have won Kaladin over if she did, but more importantly, I do feel one of the reasons she did speak and it just didn't matter if Kaladin knew. She had nothing to lose. She could finally get it out, go through with it (the parts she had already acknowledged to herself, not the ones she still refused to face). 

To me thus, it wasn't instant chemistry, but circumstances which made it convenient for her to tell Kaladin and, more importantly, it bore no consequences. She can't tell the truth to Adolin, not because she does not like him nor trust him, but because too much is at stake. How will he react? Will he end the engagement? She murdered her parents: this is awful. She can't just tell him, but Kaladin... What is he going to do? What can he do to her? Nothing. Just nothing.

This being said, I know for a fact readers wanting to read chemistry will always read chemistry into the scene. I am not disputing the idea maybe there was, but I do think it is way too soon to conclude on it. The behavior can be better explained by stronger arguments. We'll see how it goes within the next book.

16 hours ago, SLNC said:

Yeah, right. When would have there been the possibility? Kabsal specifically sought her out to get close on Jasnah and Adolin and her are in a causal. Of course, they are bound to spend more time, than Kaladin and her. That they got off on the wrong foot didn't make it easier. Let them spend time together, before you judge the possible nature of their relationship. Not every romantic relationship is love at first sight.

They had the possibility in Urithiru: they didn't take it. Neither of them thought of each other. Besides, even if they did get together, what would they be doing? It has been a lasting argument standing against Kaladin: he does not date. He does not enjoy dating. He has no interest going through with dates which would interest Shallan. He doesn't care about art, at best he'll find it useful if it fills out a purpose, at worst he'll find it silly and useless just like all lighteyed related things.

It also has been one of the knot standing at the center of the issue: it is practically impossible to picture Kaladin and Shallan going on a date and having a good time and casually talking. It just doesn't work, not in my mind.

9 hours ago, kari-no-sugata said:

A little note in advance: I feel like I've been dissing Kaladin and Renarin a lot in posts lately and it feels a bit unfair. However, all characters have various flaws and those flaws show up in different circumstances. Some character flaws would particularly affect their chances of having a stable, long-term romantic relationship and since that's the topic of this thread then it's particularly relevant. Just because I'm pointing out these flaws doesn't mean that I dislike the characters overall or anything like that. I also expect these flaws to change this time - characters will grow, come to realise their flaws and so on. So what could happen in the next book or two would be rather different to what could happen in 10 years time, for example.

Bah... Kaladin isn't lacking support: the majority of the fandom roots heavily for him, so I do not mind if I have to emphasis on his flaws from times to times :ph34r: Full disclosure, I don't hate the character, not at all, I rather like Kaladin. My main issue with him isn't him... but the fact I feel he has too much page time and I wished other characters had more. Quite a silly way of feeling, but hey, can't help it.

As for Renarin, my problems with him are nothing short of legendary :ph34r: There are days where I am rather fond of him, where I find I enjoy his character and there are days when I am deeply annoyed with him. Most of my issues sprout from one aspect of his character: he has no agency (not enough for me). He doesn't try to accomplish anything, well, nothing that's not scribbling glyphs in the shadows. He constantly focus on what he cannot do and I find it hard to bear, hard to appreciate. In comparison, Steris, whom also is autistic, is a delightful character always trying to be useful in whichever small ways she can think of. That's the spirit which is so sorely lacking to Renarin. So huh, he's hard to love, but maybe he'll grow on me. We never know. I do love his relationship with his brother, so that, that's something. 

This being said, flaws are great and everything, but they never completely go away... People learn to live with them, to work with them, but they tend to stay. I think.

10 hours ago, kari-no-sugata said:

When it comes to Kaladin, I certainly think he'll have trouble with long term romance with what we've seen to date. One big problem for Kaladin is that he's basically a workaholic - his work/life balance is terrible. Even when his men drag him to the pub he's still thinking about work. Even Syl complains about this aspect of him. To put it bluntly, that's not conducive to a long term romantic relationship. So for him to form a long term romantic relationship I think it would require something major: (1) he loses his "job" and has nothing he needs to do, (2) he falls completely head-of-heels in love to the extent that his entire personality changes (3) the other party is someone he regularly meets while working, (4) meet someone who is happy to have such a relationship, (5) he stops being a workaholic.

For the above, (1) seems unlikely since he's currently the most combat orientated Radiant, (2) rather improbable and would feel "forced" within the story, (3) would depend a lot upon the circumstances and workplace relationships aren't the most stable either, (4) is also rather improbably and liable to feel "forced" within the story (5) it seems too ingrained in him to change quickly.

I could see 3) and 4) working without being contrived. 3) has always been my best bet for a working relationship as this individual would be able to follow him around. As we have been able to see, families of soldiers usually travel with them. Whenever he went warring, Dalinar's wife and sons followed him. Navani implies she has been forced to give up a career as an engineer. Jasnah feels marriage to too contrived. Any wife of Kaladin would need to give up her personal ambition (if she has one) in order to follow him, to be with him. Hence, only 3) and 4) would realistically work with a personality such as Kaladin. 

Then again, being married to Adolin would also be contrived, so maybe this isn't such an argument. For my part, in the end, I feel Shallan and Adolin would end up in a more balanced relationship.

10 hours ago, SLNC said:

Kaladin wasn't always like this... Tien's death was his breaking point and Tarah was the person, who helped him before he worked himself to death. He can be changed.

And I don't know why two caring persons can't look out for each other, without having it called a sacrifice.

Except he has always been like this... People do not fundamentally changed. Hardships may make key elements of their personality shine or sink, but they fundamentally remain the same. 

Kaladin has always wanted to dedicate himself towards protecting others. He has always wanted to be a soldier, to be this man, the protector. It is why Tien's death hurt as hard as it did: he had sworn he would protect him. Even if it was completely unrealistic and implausible to think he, as a green cadet, he would have the ability to do so, he still made the promise he would. And he failed. That's why it hurt: he failed at keeping his word. Had Tien died in other circumstances, say a sickness, I think Kaladin's reaction would have been different.

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5 hours ago, maxal said:

They had the possibility in Urithiru: they didn't take it. Neither of them thought of each other. Besides, even if they did get together, what would they be doing? It has been a lasting argument standing against Kaladin: he does not date. He does not enjoy dating. He has no interest going through with dates which would interest Shallan. He doesn't care about art, at best he'll find it useful if it fills out a purpose, at worst he'll find it silly and useless just like all lighteyed related things.

They really knew themselves for 200 pages or something. You don't know if he does not enjoy dating, just because he doesn't get drunk with Bridge Four doesn't mean he wouldn't want to spend time with a woman. You don't know if he has no interest. Sorry to break it to you, but the world is about to end and Kaladin was fighting an Honorblade wielder a few moments before. Besides, even if it was clear that he enjoyed dating, just hypothetically, he would keep out of it because of Adolin.

So no they didn't have the possibility in Urithiru, or they hypothetically had, but were prevented by other things. (Shallan having to cope with telling herself the truth about her mother's death, Kaladin being prevented by his own honor and probably had to rest too) Like I said, love does not have to come at first sight and there are appropriate moments to pursue it, the arrival at Urithiru was not one. And, to be frank, you can't blame Kaladin for leaving for Hearthstone to try to warn his family...

5 hours ago, maxal said:

Kaladin has always wanted to dedicate himself towards protecting others. He has always wanted to be a soldier, to be this man, the protector. It is why Tien's death hurt as hard as it did: he had sworn he would protect him. Even if it was completely unrealistic and implausible to think he, as a green cadet, he would have the ability to do so, he still made the promise he would. And he failed. That's why it hurt: he failed at keeping his word. Had Tien died in other circumstances, say a sickness, I think Kaladin's reaction would have been different.

I said, he wasn't always a workaholic. I don't argue, that he is not a protector, but my point is that with a certain person in his life, his behavior can change. After Tien's death on the battlefied (just because you insist), he never stopped training, hence he was a workaholic. Tarah came into his life and he stopped being a workaholic for a time. After opting to protect Bridge Four, he starts being fully commited again. His behavior can change, he's not as stubborn as you try to make him.

Sorry, but I somehow get the feeling I'm purposely misunderstood sometimes.

5 hours ago, maxal said:

There are a myriads of reasons which explain why Shallan told Kaladin the truth, down in the chasm. The most obvious one is she needed to: she had to disclose the fact she had both Pattern and a fantastic memory. It was a matter of survival. Once the first and most daunting secret was out, it was much easier to tell the rest of it. One thing we have to keep in mind is Shallan hasn't been able to be honest with anyone so far: the stakes have always been too high. She could never jeopardize her achievements for the sake of honesty: it must have been hard to bear. However, down there, in the chasm, it didn't matter anymore. What were the stakes? Their survival. Getting to work with this unpleasant man. She could have told half-truth, but she wouldn't have won Kaladin over if she did, but more importantly, I do feel one of the reasons she did speak and it just didn't matter if Kaladin knew. She had nothing to lose. She could finally get it out, go through with it (the parts she had already acknowledged to herself, not the ones she still refused to face). 

To me thus, it wasn't instant chemistry, but circumstances which made it convenient for her to tell Kaladin and, more importantly, it bore no consequences. She can't tell the truth to Adolin, not because she does not like him nor trust him, but because too much is at stake. How will he react? Will he end the engagement? She murdered her parents: this is awful. She can't just tell him, but Kaladin... What is he going to do? What can he do to her? Nothing. Just nothing.

This being said, I know for a fact readers wanting to read chemistry will always read chemistry into the scene. I am not disputing the idea maybe there was, but I do think it is way too soon to conclude on it. The behavior can be better explained by stronger arguments. We'll see how it goes within the next book.

No. She told him the personal truths after they were safely in the alcove. One might argue, that she told him about her abusive father to manipulate him into helping her, but afterwards? There was no reason to tell him anything more. Oh, and no consequences? She doesn't know Kaladin, only that he works for Dalinar Kholin, her boyfriend's father. I wonder, what he would think about his heir being betrothed to a murderer. She didn't know if Kaladin goes running to Dalinar and tell him everything. There was a risk involved, but she somehow must have deemed him trustworthy. Sensing trustworthiness and willingness to take risks is chemistry.

And readers, who don't want to read chemistry in a scene, will never read chemistry in a scene. Sorry, but this argument is moot and unfair, because it implies, that those readers are unable of discussion in your eyes, because of their implied clouded judgment.

5 hours ago, maxal said:

Kaladin's happiness has never passed through fulfillment within inter-personal relationships: he doesn't care for them most of the time. His happiness, I believe he will find it in staying true to his word, in finding how he can both be a soldier and a protector and out of knowing he has done right by those he gave his words too. 

*cough* Tien *cough*

Tien was the only person, who could really make him feel happy. I think after Tien's death, Kaladin didn't have a happy moment since. Maybe with Tarah, but we don't know. He is a soldier, because he is good at it and he protects, because he believes, that is the best he can do with his skills. With it he has purpose in life, something which holds him in the world, but not real happiness. Remember that he was about to kill himself after being without purpose, but refrained from doing so after he found purpose again. We don't know, what makes him happy, but I reckon it is something, or rather someone, akin to Tien, who he compared Shallan to. What would make Shallan happy? I don't know... Drawing I guess? Knowing her family is safe? Can't really tell.

Edited by SLNC
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This is more of a general comment than directed to anyone in particular, but here it goes: as someone who enjoys all characters involved in different ways, I really hate the amount of character bashing that goes on in most discussions of this nature. I'm not saying it's particularly blatant or anything, but there must be a different way to say "I don't find Adolin interesting" than building an entire character narrative on how he must certainly be going evil and can't be forgiven, not ever; and I am sure there's a way to say "I'm not into Kaladin as a character" that doesn't involve making arguments that can be miscostructed as "you can't have depression and be in a fulfilling romantic relationship at the same time".

Again, this is not directed to anyone here or even referring specifically to the discussion that took place in this specific thread as opposite to all the other threads or websites where I've seen discussed this particular relationship. I just want to say that, personally, the reason why I'm perfectly fine with the idea of a love triangle is that I don't believe Brandom would let the ~romantic narrative~ cheapen one of the characters involved, reduce them to a monodimensional list of traits, or generally make one of the characters look worse than they are so that the other two can be together, which is sadly something that does tend to happen in fandom discussions. At risk of sounding terribly obnoxious: can't we focus the discussion on why we want some characters to be together rather than on why the other pairing would never work?

*runs back and hides into own lurking cave, hoping no one's offended*

 

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13 hours ago, Elena said:

This is more of a general comment than directed to anyone in particular, but here it goes: as someone who enjoys all characters involved in different ways, I really hate the amount of character bashing that goes on in most discussions of this nature. I'm not saying it's particularly blatant or anything, but there must be a different way to say "I don't find Adolin interesting" than building an entire character narrative on how he must certainly be going evil and can't be forgiven, not ever; and I am sure there's a way to say "I'm not into Kaladin as a character" that doesn't involve making arguments that can be miscostructed as "you can't have depression and be in a fulfilling romantic relationship at the same time".

There's many aspects to effective communication and one of them is to make the scope of your argument clear. In my previous post I started off with a little side note to try to help give some balance and make the scope of my arguments clearer, since I felt I had gone a bit too far over the course of previous posts. So yes, I agree... though it can be hard sometimes :)

 

13 hours ago, Elena said:

Again, this is not directed to anyone here or even referring specifically to the discussion that took place in this specific thread as opposite to all the other threads or websites where I've seen discussed this particular relationship. I just want to say that, personally, the reason why I'm perfectly fine with the idea of a love triangle is that I don't believe Brandom would let the ~romantic narrative~ cheapen one of the characters involved, reduce them to a monodimensional list of traits, or generally make one of the characters look worse than they are so that the other two can be together, which is sadly something that does tend to happen in fandom discussions. At risk of sounding terribly obnoxious: can't we focus the discussion on why we want some characters to be together rather than on why the other pairing would never work?

*runs back and hides into own lurking cave, hoping no one's offended*

"Love triangle" can mean quite different things to different people. Based on the comments I've seen, I'd say most readers aren't remotely interested in seeing anything remotely like what's been shown in certain more romance focused series that shall remain nameless. I don't think there's any real expectation that Brandon would do a "real" love triangle but since we don't specifically know what he's going to do people can get anxious during the long wait, no matter how much they trust him.

If we rate different examples of love triangles as to how serious they are on a 10 point scale, say... then what we saw in WoR between Shallan, Adolin and Kaladin could be rated as say a 1 or 2 depending on personal interpretation. I don't think many people would rate it as a 0 (absolutely nothing remotely even hinting of a love triangle). If the next book raises the potential a bit more during the main part of the story only to cool down a significant degree by the end then I don't think I would have a big problem with that. What I'd least like to see is this potential love triangle carrying over even more into the 4th book than what we have now - I'd prefer to see it mostly resolved (and maybe have other couples to discuss instead).

Regarding discussion in general, I think constructive criticism should always be welcomed. To a large degree, the main reason why I post here is the hope that others will provide insights that I might not have thought of or correct misunderstandings or misinterpretations. It also gives me motivation to analyse the books more closely (I often re-read parts while writing posts). Since any discussion about potential future developments depends on what has happened to date, and the various interpretations of those happenings, I think it adds to the discussion to have constructive criticism. But yes it's nice to have more straightforwardly positive or aspirational posts as well.

For a bit of fun, and as an example of how expectations can change between books, here's my rough recollection of a possible scenario I had thought of in which romance could develop between Kaladin and Shallan, prior to WoR being released. I had thought about various ideas in which Shallan could legally make money, once she reaches the warcamps. One seemingly obvious idea is that she could work part time on administrative work, like how Lighteyed ladies often do. And look, here's Kaladin with a lot of people to manage but with nobody to help him with the paperwork. So I had the idea that Shallan would end up working alongside Kaladin and that things could develop from there. The Shallan we saw in tWoK was quite a "shrinking Violet" much of the time - angry/shouting people made her very nervous. So in my imagination I wondered how they would interact and my expectation was that Kaladin would be liable to treat Shallan like a "normal" Lighteyed lady and shout at her occasionally (I had even considered that he might have already driven off one previous admin, partially because he's worried about them finding too much about him). With how Shallan used to be, if Kaladin had shouted at her, she wouldn't have shouted back and instead would have looked obviously afraid and might have even run away. Which would leave Kaladin feeling awkward, leading him to reflect on his behaviour and moderate his attitude, at least towards Shallan. Over time they would learn more about each others capabilities and things could develop from there.

It's funny how wrong you can be sometimes :P I certainly hadn't expected Shallan to come out from her self-imposed shell quite so much.

 

PS Please come out of your cave more often. The more the merrier!

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@SLNC You and I appears to have very different perspective onto Kaladin's character and I fear this would be a complicated subject to delve into. I also sense a growing frustration at seemingly not finding support for your own argumentation (trust me, there is a lot more support for the Kaladin/Shallan ship then there is for the Adolin/Shallan ship). I will thus re-iterate the fact several readers might interpret a same scene in various ways and while none will, technically, be wrong, all will most certainly be subjective.

I have never disputed the pro-Kaladin argumentation, but I have stated what others may read as chemistry could actually be explained by a combination of so many other factors one cannot claim their ship will most certainly sail because this one scene undeniably highlights it will. It doesn't.

It is thus stating Shallan is most certainly attracted, if not directly, at least unconsciously, to Kaladin because she told the truth while being in a difficult situation is not a fact. It also isn't a fact to state her interest is genuine and her behavior, down in this chasm, most certainly dooms Adolin/Shallan just as it most certainly imply she has a greater interest for Kaladin. This is a speculation based on an interpretation of what may have transpire into the scene. Others, such as myself, will offer a variety of other reasons which realistically explain the behavior, worst, some of us do think those explanations better explain it than the "instant chemistry" one.

What I meant in saying those who wish to read chemistry will always read it merely is people will always root for their favorite ship to sail and will look for argument in favor of it. This hardly is the first shipping discussion I mangle with. This is unlikely to be the last too, but each time, the Kaladin/Shallan shippers have used this very same argument and each time, the Adolin/Shallan shippers have debated over what others perceived as "chemistry".

You seem to think I am thick-headed for not agreeing with your chemistry argument, I say there are other arguments to be have and I happen to find them more heavily supported. Stronger. Making more sense. I do think laying into an alcove, cut into the cliff of a chasm, while a Highstorm raged outside accounts for dire circumstances. I do not think it felt "safe", I do not think Shallan felt "safe": all through the books, characters have been afraid of Highstorms. You can't be stranded outside when one if blowing, especially not down in a chasm. The ordeal was terrible (even if Shallan later on downplays it) and while we, the readers, know it will be alright, the characters certainly don't. I do think being cloistered into a small space while a terrible storm might over-flood your meager cover at any time (they had no idea if the alcove has high enough nor if it will allow them enough protection) truly accounts for those "once in a lifetime moments" where all barriers/inhibition do fall. I cannot ignore the circumstances into which Shallan did speak to Kaladin and these circumstances are what makes me believe it didn't sprouted out of an instant bout of trust based on some sort of latent chemistry which brew during their time together.

Also, my perspectives on Kaladin's character are he hasn't fundamentally changed since his youth as each element of his personality his older self exhibits (depression, anger, pessimism), we can glimpse into his younger self. Hardships didn't fundamentally changed him, it merely exacerbates a few given traits, hence Kaladin became angrier (he was an angry youth), more depressed (he always were depressed) and more pessimistic (he wasn't as gloomy as a youth, but he wasn't skipping in happiness either).

I thus do not expect Kaladin to fundamentally change within the future of SA. I expect him to work on his flaws, to hone them, to improve in a few key areas, but I do not expect him to drastically change.

Also, when referring to Kaladin being a workaholic, most of us aren't referring to his time following Tien's death (which we haven't read, so we should be careful at drawing conclusions on how it might happened, especially things concerning Tarah: we have no idea what their story was, yet), but his present day self where he refuses to take a break. Ever. Even when he is allowed to. Obviously, I would argue Kaladin always had those tendencies and strikes to me as exactly the kind of man who would always dig into any work he is passionate about. I just cannot read him as a man who would drop his duties for love. Arguably, this isn't precisely stated within the books, so you might argue differently.

In the end, I do not support the argument wanting Kaladin would change his behaviors, his outcome on life merely out of love for Shallan which does not mean he cannot love, it just means his love would need to work around his other very important priorities. If Brandon Sanderson wants to take the character down this road, then I do believe he will need to come up with a plausible narrative to bring out the character from where he is now to where he needs to be for this story arc to work . However, if Kaladin suddenly starts to skip in happiness across the chasm because he is in a relationship with Shallan, then I fear many readers will quizzically stare at their books. If the Kaladin/Shallan ship does sail, then I expect Kaladin to constantly feel bad over it because he did notice Adolin crushing on her. I also expect Shallan to feel bad about it because I doubt she wishes to hurt Adolin, I thus can definitely see there two, in an hypothetical narrative where they are in a relationship, being both ill-at-ease for what they did to Adolin. Where the main narrative can go from then and onward, I have no idea, but it isn't my preferred choice. I also do not think Adolin would ever be fine with Kaladin and Shallan being into a relationship.

18 hours ago, Elena said:

This is more of a general comment than directed to anyone in particular, but here it goes: as someone who enjoys all characters involved in different ways, I really hate the amount of character bashing that goes on in most discussions of this nature. I'm not saying it's particularly blatant or anything, but there must be a different way to say "I don't find Adolin interesting" than building an entire character narrative on how he must certainly be going evil and can't be forgiven, not ever; and I am sure there's a way to say "I'm not into Kaladin as a character" that doesn't involve making arguments that can be miscostructed as "you can't have depression and be in a fulfilling romantic relationship at the same time".

Again, this is not directed to anyone here or even referring specifically to the discussion that took place in this specific thread as opposite to all the other threads or websites where I've seen discussed this particular relationship. I just want to say that, personally, the reason why I'm perfectly fine with the idea of a love triangle is that I don't believe Brandom would let the ~romantic narrative~ cheapen one of the characters involved, reduce them to a monodimensional list of traits, or generally make one of the characters look worse than they are so that the other two can be together, which is sadly something that does tend to happen in fandom discussions. At risk of sounding terribly obnoxious: can't we focus the discussion on why we want some characters to be together rather than on why the other pairing would never work?

When defending your preferred ship, people (myself included) will tend to focus on both the positive aspects of their preferred relationship and onto the negative aspects of their less preferred one. I do not think anyone has malicious intentions, but these are discussions which can get heated. It is always disheartening when your preferred ship seems to be lacking support in any given discussion.

Also, when it comes to love triangles, the entertainment industry has typically solved them in likewise manner: it is either one of the choices is obviously "bad" and/or "evil", or they introduce a fourth member to make it a square. Hence, when Adolin comes across as the less developed of the trio, then it is only natural many readers would jump onto the idea he would turn evil, especially after murdering Sadeas. I disagree with the argumentation, but I understand why it exists.

As for Kaladin, I didn't mean to say having depression would prevent him from having a relationship. I meant to say developing a relationship with Shallan wouldn't magically cure his depression. This is an illness he will presumably spend a lifetime battling with. I thus think any potential partner, for him, would need to be someone able to cope with it, able to support him through those bouts. I honestly do not think it can be Shallan.

Reasons why I support my ship? Ah, there are plenty, but this will be for another day as I am running out of time.

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@maxal

I couldn't care less about support about my own belief. You have yours, I have mine. Otherwise, we wouldn't be discussing. And I'm sure, that there are plenty, who share my belief, but your camp is just more vocal at the moment, nothing I can do about that. I may be a sensitive person, but I also can't shake the feeling that your rather... elaborate... comments on the discussion have a slight condescending undertone, when someone doesn't agree with you. I don't like to be condescended upon, but I don't want this discussion to slide into being ad hominem, so I'll just forget it. If I misjudged, then I have to apologize for that.

Stating things as facts? We are speculating here, we all are. I thought that it was quite obvious, what is fact and what is not. Where is speculation, there can't be facts. But I will try to use more "would", "could", "should" and "might" from now on, although I think it won't make for an especially pleasing reading experience.

I don't know, why someone as pragmatic as Shallan, would use her own last perceived living moments, to tell a stranger her closest secrets in a bout of despair, but if you believe that, then you are entitled to it.

You're right. He's become worse. I never even argued against it, so I don't really know why you bring it up here. All I said is that a certain someone could have a impact on that, because it happened before with Tarah and always with Tien. He's not as much a lost cause as you try to make him out to be, which to be completely honest, starts to grind my gears.

I know, I even conceded, that he's become worse again. And you're right, that we don't know the story about Tarah, but we do know, that they were romantically involved and that she made him tamer. He wouldn't have to drop his duties to love Shallan, for they have the same duties now. Shallan is as much a protector as Kaladin is. All Radiants, fundamentally, are mankind's protectors against the Desolations. Sure, the Windrunners are bound by oath, while Lightweavers aren't, but that doesn't change that it is the duty of the Knights to protect mankind - and it is perceived by the Knights like that.

6 hours ago, maxal said:

However, if Kaladin suddenly starts to skip in happiness across the chasm because he is in a relationship with Shallan,

Oh, come on now. I never said that. Is this really your only perception of happiness? I think Shallan could help him out of his hole of pessimism and unhappiness. I even think, that this could be without them ever being romantically involved. So everything is well? No, Adolin. He's insecure. He hides it well in public, but we all know he is, especially when it comes to women. If he'd find out, that Shallan spends time with Kaladin - even as friends, I suppose, he'd grow extremely jealous and over-protective. So, I think, that any relationship between Kaladin and Shallan won't work, unless Kaladin replaces Adolins place beside Shallan, but not because they HAVE to be romantically involved, but because of Adolin's insecurity.

Sure, there would be some inner conflict about it, but if there are true feelings, then you can't deny them.

And, of course, Adolin wouldn't be happy about it... Maybe he should challenge Kaladin to a duel, how he always solves his problems.

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Eh, I think all of us just want the big personalities to end up in a happy relationship. I'd personally prefer some kind of triangle drama between Kal, Ado and Shallan, but we'll see what happens this fall.

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5 hours ago, SLNC said:

I don't know, why someone as pragmatic as Shallan, would use her own last perceived living moments, to tell a stranger her closest secrets in a bout of despair, but if you believe that, then you are entitled to it.

I won't comment on much of your post, @SLNC, as I have no idea where this is going to go in the future. I have beliefs about the emotions being felt by Kaladin and Shallan, and I think that the most that can be said of them is that they are very new...

Anyway, with regard to the specific quoted paragraph: There are many fictional examples of people with long-kept secrets with which they are uncomfortable, spilling their guts when they're about to die (only one that comes immediately to mind is the main pair in Tangled, which is a pretty much direct comparison... though admittedly it also involves feelings :-P). The more pragmatic ones only do it when their audience is either to be trusted or, better yet, about to die too. Whether this actually happens is hard to say, but the impulse to die without the full weight of that kept secret is at least understandable.

Add to this that Kaladin has just been very open with her (if only because he is babbling, reaching for anything to say as a distraction from the Storm), then you have a very honest and open context, on top of the impending-death-in-almost-complete-isolation trope. I can see it happening without a deeper personal connection.

Edited by Krandacth
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I wouldn't mind seeing some character friction between Kal, Shallan and Adolin. I think it would liven things up a bit. 

 

On a different note i think in the Chasms when they had their chemistry it was mostly the danger and the adrenaline that made them open themselves up to each other, Kaladin opened up about his life and she simply responded in kind. They both realised they had far more in common than they thought they had, with both regarding themselves as broken. The close physical proximity wouldn't have hurt either. This triangle could swing either way in truth.

 

On 2017-5-3 at 9:18 AM, Elena said:

"I don't find Adolin interesting"

Dont Judge me Elena but im guilty of saying this. I think i've written this exactly Haha.

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On 4/5/2017 at 7:55 PM, AerionBFII said:
Quote

"I don't find Adolin interesting"

 

Dont Judge me Elena but im guilty of saying this. I think i've written this exactly Haha.

This sounds like something Kaladin would say tbh

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One of the charming little details i picked up reading the chasm scene is this:

Quote

The chasmfiend had fallen on Kaladin.

Shallan dropped her paper—it bore a drawing of her and another of Kaladin—and scrambled across the rocks, dismissing the blackness around her.

 

Shallan drew Kaladin while he was asleep, since there was no mention of her drawing his portrait while they were sitting or walking (obviously). Thats pretty cute and accurate detail. Oh, and that she dropped both her own and Kaladin's portraits, not just Kaladin's only or Kaladin's and portrait of some random girl/guy/creature/plant.

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2 minutes ago, Harbour said:

One of the charming little details i picked up reading the chasm scene is this:

Shallan drew Kaladin while he was asleep, since there was no mention of her drawing his portrait while they were sitting or walking (obviously). Thats pretty cute and accurate detail. Oh, and that she dropped both her own and Kaladin's portraits, not just Kaladin's only or Kaladin's and portrait of some random girl/guy/creature/plant.

Welcome to the shard! Have a cookie and an upvote

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1 hour ago, Harbour said:

One of the charming little details i picked up reading the chasm scene is this:

Shallan drew Kaladin while he was asleep, since there was no mention of her drawing his portrait while they were sitting or walking (obviously). Thats pretty cute and accurate detail. Oh, and that she dropped both her own and Kaladin's portraits, not just Kaladin's only or Kaladin's and portrait of some random girl/guy/creature/plant.

I'm pretty sure she did those drawings quickly while Kaladin was facing the chamsfiend, just to create the illusions that were used in the fight as a distraction.

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Sorry, I think she drew him during the fight with the chasm fiend, because she needed a sketch of Veil to use that illusion, and to even turn her hair black- so she sketched Kaladin for the illusion attached to Pattern and drew one of herself so that when the chasmfiend attacked her, she wouldn't die--an illusion of her would get destroyed instead.

Though by now she's almost certainly done a sketch of Kaladin, if only to fill her sketchbook with aquaintances.

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16 hours ago, Harbour said:

One of the charming little details i picked up reading the chasm scene is this:

Shallan drew Kaladin while he was asleep, since there was no mention of her drawing his portrait while they were sitting or walking (obviously). Thats pretty cute and accurate detail. Oh, and that she dropped both her own and Kaladin's portraits, not just Kaladin's only or Kaladin's and portrait of some random girl/guy/creature/plant.

Nice find! And welcome to the community.

Reminds me I have to read the chasm scenes again. One of my favourite parts of Stormlight Archive so far.

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On 11/05/2017 at 5:17 PM, geralt said:

I'm pretty sure she did those drawings quickly while Kaladin was facing the chamsfiend, just to create the illusions that were used in the fight as a distraction.

I agree. We've seen multiple times that she can do quick sketches. Also, it seems pretty clear from the text that she only did part of the chasmfiend drawing before going to sleep. If she could have drawn more she'd definitely have continued that.

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So I've been interpreting Kaladin as ace. He doesn't seem to have any real interest in love, I just interpret him as completely uninterested in any kind of relationship, he didn't consider the fact that the men of the Bridge Crews might need family housing, he found the date he was along on a complete waste of time.

That's just my interpretation of him. Regardless of that, when this comes up I always stumble at what I consider the greatest hurdle (besides the Ace factor) the fact that Kaladin killed Shallan's favourite brother. It especially surprises me when people think Adolin's murder of Sadeas will make her just fall into Kaladin's arms...

I just wouldn't be able to believe it, It's like if you found out the person you were going out with was the one responsible for a traffic accident that killed one of your family members, you wouldn't feel the same about that after that.

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Hmm. I only just thought of it but given that Kaladin's raging about Tien's death has lead him to where his is today (although indirectly), it would be an... interesting situation for him to fall in love with Shallan and try to pursue that love given that he killed her brother. If he does that while continuing to keep quiet about that fact then it would hardly be honourable now would it? (I don't mean it would be dishonourable for him to fall in love with her but does nothing to pursue it). If he admitted to killing Shallan's brother up front I think it would not become a huge obstacle but if he tries to keep it from her then I don't think it would go well.

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