The One Who Connects Posted August 24, 2016 Report Share Posted August 24, 2016 The time of the Return, the Desolation, is near at hand. We must prepare. You will have forgotten much, following the destruction of the times past. -Taln You all know the story. A desolation approaches, and the Heralds appear to prepare mankind for surviving it. I'm curious as to what they actually taught that helped to keep man alive before the KR were founded. They saw enough value to keep teaching it, and humanity managed to survive each time (somewhat) Name Title Teaching Attributes Order Jezrien Herald of Kings Leadership Protecting/Leading Windrunners Nalan Herald of Justice ??^ Just/Confident Skybreakers Chana ?? ?? Brave/Obedient Dustbringers Vedel Herald of Healing Train Surgeons Loving/Healing Edgedancers Paliah ?? ?? Learned/Giving Truthwatchers Shalash Herald of Beauty ?? Creativity/Honesty Lightweavers Battar ?? ?? Wisdom/Care Elsecallers Kalak ?? How to cast bronze* Resolute/builder Willshapers Talenel Herald of War Train Soldiers Dependable/Resourceful Stonewards Ishar Herald of Luck ??** Pious/Guiding Bondsmiths There are a fair number of blank spaces. The Heraldic Titles appear to fit with what they teach, but maybe not always. I also placed each Herald's respective attributes and KR Order for completeness, in case they can help make connections. Notes: ^ Nalan takes "extreme" care to adhere to the law, perhaps he trains people in enforcing law/discipline? * Taln wishes he had the time to teach them steel, so I assume Kalak knows of many materials ** Taln mentions that Ishar spoke of a way to keep information from being lost between Desolations Sources: Herald Chart Circumflex ^ Asterisks * Edits: First, I hereby apologize to phone users for the big table, I wanted to appear organized. Second, I finally made my first official topic! Third, any/all opinions or criticism are welcome. 8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CalaCrisp88 Posted August 25, 2016 Report Share Posted August 25, 2016 (edited) Great job compiling all that! Also welcome and congrats for your first topic! Now, I'm most confident about Shalash and Nalan. I think that Shalash taught humans about art. No real evidence for that, but she seems to be linked closely with art. One of her attributes is Creativity. Nalan may have taught justice and/or law. One of his attributes is Just. I'm not sure if their attributes matter either, but Leading links with teaching leadership, Healing links with training surgeons, Builder links with casting metal, and Dependable also kind of links with training soldiers. So from that, I'll try to make some stuff up for the other Heralds and their attributes. Paliah: Learned/Giving. Learned suggests she just taught people general education stuff. But she probably also taught them about sharing and generosity, and all that. Battar: Wisdom/Care. Wisdom... I guess maybe she taught philosophy? Ishar: Pious/Guiding. Pious means deeply devoted and faithful. Maybe he just spouted all that "Believe in your friends!" stuff, but pious is often used for a religion. Maybe he tried to teach mankind a religion or something, maybe spread knowledge of Adonalsium who was their god? Obviously though, they started worshipping Tanavast and the Heralds instead. I have no idea where "Herald of Luck" fits into all that though. Anyway, I sort of went on a tangent there. Keep in mind much of what I just said is groundless speculation. I've never really thought about it before but this question actually really interests me. Edit: Also just thought I'd mention I'm using my phone right now and grr that bothers me lol Edited August 25, 2016 by 8giraffe8 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+hwiles Posted August 25, 2016 Report Share Posted August 25, 2016 7 hours ago, 8giraffe8 said: ............ Paliah: Learned/Giving. Learned suggests she just taught people general education stuff. But she probably also taught them about sharing and generosity, and all that. Battar: Wisdom/Care. Wisdom... I guess maybe she taught philosophy? Ishar: Pious/Guiding. Pious means deeply devoted and faithful. Maybe he just spouted all that "Believe in your friends!" stuff, but pious is often used for a religion. Maybe he tried to teach mankind a religion or something, maybe spread knowledge of Adonalsium who was their god? Obviously though, they started worshipping Tanavast and the Heralds instead. I have no idea where "Herald of Luck" fits into all that though. .................. This is definitely an interesting topic, even if, as you noted, we don't have a lot of hard evidence to theorize from. I'd guess that the Heralds would have focused mankind's education on things that would ultimately help them win their war. Things like logistics, establishing/maintaining supply lines and lines of communication, agricultural techniques, maybe even taxation or feudal government. As far was teaching goes, I'd say: Nalan - Law and order Chana - Conscription/vassalage/sharecropping Paliah - Taxation or maybe economic planning and logistics. Anything that puts scholars to work on the war effort Shallash - Recruitment and training of leaders, both for their armies and governments. The best leaders are often creative and honest, so I feel good about this one Battar - No freakin idea. Ishar - The Herald's religion; teaching the people about Honor and the return of the voidbringers. Basically putting the fight in context for everyone as a religious war so they understand that there won't be any sidelining or peace talks when things start getting really rough. Rallying and directing religious fervor 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The One Who Connects Posted August 25, 2016 Author Report Share Posted August 25, 2016 @8giraffe8 The attributes might not be relevant, but since they did seem to fit I added them anyway.@hwiles I agree about teaching things that would help them in the war, which is why I questioned "herald of beauty" We all agree on Nalan and discipline/justice in some form, so maybe that's right Chana: Obedient makes conscription kinda work, I'm curious about the sharecropping now Paliah: General Education vs Logistics.. I guess she could teach generally useful stuff and scholarly stuff Shalash: She is art-related, maybe doing abstract things helps with abstract thinking? Battar: We all sound confused, but philosophy could be kinda useful. (Is in-world Way of Kings philosophy?) Ishar: Religion in some context seems to fit, I like the "why" they are fighting Voidbringers. Herald of Luck though.. Thanks for joining the discussion 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+hwiles Posted August 25, 2016 Report Share Posted August 25, 2016 38 minutes ago, The One Who Connects said: @8giraffe8 The attributes might not be relevant, but since they did seem to fit I added them anyway.@hwiles I agree about teaching things that would help them in the war, which is why I questioned "herald of beauty" We all agree on Nalan and discipline/justice in some form, so maybe that's right Chana: Obedient makes conscription kinda work, I'm curious about the sharecropping now Paliah: General Education vs Logistics.. I guess she could teach generally useful stuff and scholarly stuff Shalash: She is art-related, maybe doing abstract things helps with abstract thinking? Battar: We all sound confused, but philosophy could be kinda useful. (Is in-world Way of Kings philosophy?) Ishar: Religion in some context seems to fit, I like the "why" they are fighting Voidbringers. Herald of Luck though.. Thanks for joining the discussion "Herald of luck" doesn't make a lot of sense to me, I just chalk it up to evolution of the religion over millennia; I don't know that there could really be a rational reason that one of the Heralds is perceived as..."lucky." The sharecropping might've been a stretch, I just wanted to tie the whole vasallage/feudal system that the Alethi have held fast to to one of the Heralds and Chana seemed to fit best in my mind. I like your theory for Battar. The Alethi war codes (or something like them) would fit in the scope of practical philosophy that could be legitimately useful to the war effort. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rasarr Posted August 25, 2016 Report Share Posted August 25, 2016 Interesting topic. When it comes to Battar, I wonder if she wouldn't be teaching men about spren; as an Elsecaller patron, one would assume she'd know the most about them, especially seeing how Elsecallers apparently used to consider themselves authority on sprenkind. Maybe Battar taught people some basic fabrials and ways to trap spren? Someone did build Oathgates and Urithiru elevators, after all. Could Chana be responsible for something like militia/self defence forces? With Taln teaching soldiers, and Nale lawkeepers (I assume), the civillian populace could also use some defensive training. Chana could be responsible for stuff like training farmers how to use their scythes for combat (an aside: would Roshar have scythes, actually?). 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The One Who Connects Posted August 25, 2016 Author Report Share Posted August 25, 2016 @Rasarr I completely forgot about the spren. Wait, Urithiru had Elevators? Wisdom and Care kinda fit with bonding spren in general, so I could see Battar as the primary Artifabrian. Oh great, now I'm speculating on Navani and the KR now... what have you done We thought of conscription/sharecropping for Chana, which is still with the civilian population like you suggest. I like it I'm not actually sure if they grow anything that would need scythes, but my general agriculture knowledge is sorely lacking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+hwiles Posted August 25, 2016 Report Share Posted August 25, 2016 @Rasarr probably no scythes, but er...they gotta be using something to break open all of those lavis polyps; maybe a stout mallet (or maybe just a rock...)? Huh...regardless, they'd almost certainly have something that could be improvised into a weapon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argel Posted August 25, 2016 Report Share Posted August 25, 2016 3 hours ago, hwiles said: I don't know that there could really be a rational reason that one of the Heralds is perceived as..."lucky." Well, Hoid has special luck that let's him show up where he needs to be. They could to, making it e.g. easier to keep tabs on the enemy, prevent a breach in the line, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The One Who Connects Posted August 25, 2016 Author Report Share Posted August 25, 2016 1 minute ago, Argel said: Well, Hoid has special luck that let's him show up where he needs to be. They could to, making it e.g. easier to keep tabs on the enemy, prevent a breach in the line, etc. I thought his knowing when/where to go was with Feruchemy. But Spoiler then again, the Ire (Elantrians) made a comment about drawing on Fortune.... So I don't know. Either way, I like your idea Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Djarskublar Posted August 25, 2016 Report Share Posted August 25, 2016 Herald of luck is obvious. Someone has to teach the soldiers 'proper' gambling practices! They aren't real soldiers until they know how to gamble. On a more serious note, yeah I'm stumped on him too, maybe he just kinda helps where needed? The odd job guy of the bunch? 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The One Who Connects Posted August 25, 2016 Author Report Share Posted August 25, 2016 18 minutes ago, Djarskublar said: Herald of luck is obvious. Someone has to teach the soldiers 'proper' gambling practices! What I wouldn't give for a facepalm emoticon. They aren't real soldiers until they know how to gamble. On a more serious note, yeah I'm stumped on him too, maybe he just kinda helps where needed? The odd job guy of the bunch? I feel like Ishar's role in founding the KR is relevant, but Nalan seems more the one to enforce the rules on people... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argel Posted August 25, 2016 Report Share Posted August 25, 2016 (edited) 2 hours ago, The One Who Connects said: I thought his knowing when/where to go was with Feruchemy It probably is, but if something is in one magic system it could be in another (edit: i.e. there is precedent for Luck in the Cosmere). Yolish and Rosharn Lightweaving (Hoid vs. Shallan) being one of the most obvious example. Edited August 25, 2016 by Argel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rasarr Posted August 25, 2016 Report Share Posted August 25, 2016 8 hours ago, The One Who Connects said: Wait, Urithiru had Elevators? It did. IIRC, one of the last chapters of WoR had Dalinar happy that he didn't have to climb all those stairs, and mentioning that Navani is raving about the magical elevator tech of the ancients. I'm stumped on Ishar as well, though I've been thinking... Bondsmiths have connection with Stormfather, aye? And Stormfather is responsible for highstorms, so could Ishar be the teacher of something like proto-stormwarding? Over time, with future-guessing being considered eevil and modern stormwardens not being A Thing until recently, the ability to guess when the highstorm will come correctly four times out of five could be considered good luck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The One Who Connects Posted August 25, 2016 Author Report Share Posted August 25, 2016 Just now, Rasarr said: It did. IIRC, one of the last chapters of WoR had Dalinar happy that he didn't have to climb all those stairs, and mentioning that Navani is raving about the magical elevator tech of the ancients. Ok, that I do remember now. My bad I'm stumped on Ishar as well, though I've been thinking... Bondsmiths have connection with Stormfather, aye? And Stormfather is responsible for highstorms, so could Ishar be the teacher of something like proto-stormwarding? Over time, with future-guessing being considered eevil and modern stormwardens not being A Thing until recently, the ability to guess when the highstorm will come correctly four times out of five could be considered good luck. I like this idea, and it even fits with the "future-sight isn't evil" threads should they turn out to be right Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+hwiles Posted August 26, 2016 Report Share Posted August 26, 2016 If Ishar was teaching the people about faith, the almighty, and religion in general, he could very well have developed a reputation for...well...just being right about how stuff will turn out. Just like how Kaladin is perceived as lucky by his first squad. Maybe it's a stretch, but a core element of religions is often that, if you follow the righteous path, God (or karma or the universe or something) will see that you succeed, or are rewarded in some way. If you tell everyone, "don't worry, we're gonna win, the Almighty is with us," and happen to be "right" many times in a row, I could definitely understand earning a reputation for being lucky. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argel Posted August 26, 2016 Report Share Posted August 26, 2016 (edited) Eh? So Jesus was lucky when he cured the lepers, was resurrected, and ascended into Heaven?? Aethists might say that, but followers of the religeon would be considerably more liekly to use terms like "favored" and "chosen". For example: Jesus, being Gods only chosen son, cured the lepers, was resurrected, and ascended into Heaven In religions, it's not luck -- it's divine intervention. Edited August 26, 2016 by Argel typos Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+hwiles Posted August 26, 2016 Report Share Posted August 26, 2016 (edited) 1 hour ago, Argel said: Eh? So Jesus was lucky when he cured the lepers, was resurrected, and ascended into Heaven?? Aethists might say that, but followers of the religeon would be considerably more liekly to use terms like "favored" and "chosen". For example: Jesus, being Gods only chosen son, cured the lepers, was resurrected, and ascended into Heaven In religions, it's not luck -- it's divine intervention. No offense was meant, so I hope none was taken. I don't think anyone who witnessed a miracle would contend that it was luck. I was merely commenting on how I viewed it as reasonable that Ishar could gain a reputation among his soldiers and followers for being lucky, as his divine attributes make him, in my mind, the most likely Herald to be consoling, encouraging, and conversational with his followers about the greater context of their war and how it will ultimately be resolved if they work together. Truth be told, this is utter speculation. For all we actually know Ishar could've been a drunken pub-crawling card-shark with a reputation for winning outrageous bets. Quote Book of Ishar, 8:36 "For what will it profit a man's soul if he bets nothing and wins?" Book of Ishar, 13:5 "Keep your life filled with lust for riches and never be content with what you have, God will leave and forsake you if you don't take that man's bet," (slurred speech) "Comeon Dude, Seriously!" Book of Ishar, 5:10 "Money!" Book of Ishar, 12:15 And he said to them, "Take heed and beware of the covetousness, for one's life does not consist in the abundance of the things he possesses, but in his willingness to continue to throw the dice." NOT REAL QUOTES! Edited August 26, 2016 by hwiles 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argel Posted August 26, 2016 Report Share Posted August 26, 2016 3 hours ago, hwiles said: I was merely commenting on how I viewed it as reasonable that Ishar could gain a reputation among his soldiers and followers for being lucky Ah! That makes much more sense! I could definitely believe it if it came from the soldiers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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