Oversleep

[BoM/SH] What Sovereign is up to

45 posts in this topic

Okay, we all already know the huge twists: the Sovereing of the Southeners is Kelsier who is a Fullborn.
We know he appeared to Spook by Hemalurgy and they were doing experiments (as evidenced by existence of Spook's book).

Now, what are Kelsier's intentions? What is his endgame? Back when he was first alive, he wanted to overthrow the Empire. He succeeded. Now what?

From Secret History we learned he wanted to learn about Hemalurgy. We don't know whether that interest still holds as he's back corporeal with a spike through his eye. It could be, it could not be. We don't know what else he did put in motion with Spook. Although not much time could have passed between Katacendre and his apperance to Spook and his arrival to the South, otherwise all of Southeners would had frozen to death.

From Bands of Mourning we know that he went and saved a whole hemisphere full of people - but most of the people would probably do that with power of a Fullborn on their hands. That's a noble goal, nontheless, but what are his goals after all this? After he saved them, shown them the medallions (curious... how did he figure it out?), made himself a god of a yet another group of people, built a temple in the North (to encourage Southeners to visit Northern hemisphere) and vanished.

Why did he leave the Survivor's Spearhead there? Probably to kickstart a planet-wide production of Fullborn medallions. I am not buying that he left it for himself, as Southern legends imply. What would he need the Spearhead for anyway?

Now that he set those things in motion, he had a lot of time to mind his own business. That is if he obtained some atium to Compound youth - but I guess Marsh would share.

So... where is he, what is he doing and why? He could have even worldhopped, as he is cosmere-aware due to the events in Secret History. That is, if he learned how to step into Cognitive fully.

Edited by Oversleep
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45 minutes ago, Mason Wheeler said:

Where do we learn that Kelsier is a fullborn?

He is a full mistborn who Snapped when Mare died.

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@Eccentric Hero, Fullborn is a Mistborn + Full Feruchemist.

@Mason Wheeler, because he made the Spearhead which nicrosilmind contained (presumably) all basic Allomantic and Feruchemical powers. (I am not sure that you could make an unkeyed nicrosilmind with Feruchemical aluminum)

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I've been thinking on this and I am finding impossible to not have several theories on this of equal likely hood. The events of SH could have changed him so much, not to mention the bits of other people's souls he has stuck to himself. One of the biggest things in common through the my thoughts is that he is still on Scadrial. Brandon said that you could see his influence in Alloy of Law. I do expect that he has traveled though.

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Influence is not the same thing as presence. He could be on Scadrial, he could be elsewhere. He could even have been on Scadrial during AoL and has since left. We really don't have any way to tell.

I personally don't think Kell ages. He probably used hemalurgy to come back (Brandon hinted at this YEARS ago, and I doubt that was coincidence) though the exact mechanism is a question. My theory his soul still 'knows' he was 38 when he died, and tries to keep him at the age he 'should' be. It's sort of the opposite of what happened with Rashek. His soul 'knew' he was 1000+ and kept trying to revert him to that age, forcing him to massively compound. In Kell's case he just doesn't age - Atium tricks would be used for the purposes of disguise.

Even if I am totally wrong (very possible) I doubt Kelsier would use Atium tricks if he didn't have to. It's too iffy. He'd probably try to find a more stable (and permanent) method instead. At least, that's my guess.

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To be honest I doubt that Kelsier isn't actualy a Fullborn...damnation it I don't even know if he kept his own Allomantic Ability as Misborn in this currenlty incarnation.

I think, he made Spook a pseudo-Fullborn through Hemalurgy. After all Spook is (to cite Kel) to an "halfinsh to goodhood". Spook has quite and ready the half of a Fullborn ability and He probably was able to retriva at least some Feruchemical Spike from Inquisitors. If they manage to recover Ruin-Inquisitor's Spike...we may tell that probably they have an easy way to get a lot of powers. Much more if they were able to ally with some of the Feruchemist after the end of Ash-world.

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About his age: a stupid idea just came to my mind (I don't think it's likely, but, who knows): If Kelsier got some Atium (wouldn't even need that much) he could actually build medailons to store age, but accessible for everyone. And as the southerners see him like a god - who knows. Maybe some of them stored in there a lot of youth for Kelsier, or maybe everyone of them just a little bit, so it sums up. Like I said, I don't believe this will happen. But with the Medailons and Atium, it should be possible to transfer your youth to somebody else.

About Kelsier being Fullborn; I always expected, that his status as Mistborn is saved in his Spiritweb, which in my opinion should stay with his "Ghost". So if he'd find a new body, he should keep them. And now, what when his Ghost is moved into a body of a Full Feruchemist? Probably it doesn't work out, but that's how I imagined it. And the best plottwist, and pretty cool would be this: Kelsier or Spook find Sazed's body (that should be around somewhere, just like Vin's, Leras' and Ati's) and Kelsier is now actually using Sazed's body.

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8 hours ago, Oversleep said:

@Eccentric Hero, Fullborn is a Mistborn + Full Feruchemist.

@Mason Wheeler, because he made the Spearhead which nicrosilmind contained (presumably) all basic Allomantic and Feruchemical powers. (I am not sure that you could make an unkeyed nicrosilmind with Feruchemical aluminum)

Technically we don't know who made it, or even that it was the work of only one person.  I'd file this one under "There's always another secret" for now.

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My guess was always that Kelsier learned how the original Feruchemists got their powers and just did whatever they had done when he returned. So he'd basically be the Feruchemical equivalent of a Lerasium Mistborn.

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5 hours ago, Thunder_93 said:

About Kelsier being Fullborn; I always expected, that his status as Mistborn is saved in his Spiritweb, which in my opinion should stay with his "Ghost". So if he'd find a new body, he should keep them. And now, what when his Ghost is moved into a body of a Full Feruchemist? Probably it doesn't work out, but that's how I imagined it. And the best plottwist, and pretty cool would be this: Kelsier or Spook find Sazed's body (that should be around somewhere, just like Vin's, Leras' and Ati's) and Kelsier is now actually using Sazed's body.

I'd think Vessels' bodies are stored in CogRealm somewhere, considering they just randomly drop out of "nowhere" when the Vessel dies. Though granted, with Kelsier having freedom of movement in the Cognitive, he could find Sazed's body, but (1) why would Sazed let him keep it, and (2) that still leaves us with the issue of coming back to PhysRealm. I like the idea about Kelsier resurrecting into a Feruchemist body; perhaps it could somehow let him keep Feruchemist's power.

As for what Kelsier's purpose might be, he's already seen that there are people out there with much greater Cosmere awareness, capability to travel to other worlds and questionable work ethics. He could attempt to make Scadrial advance technologically into medallions and stuff to ensure his homeworld has a fighting chance when something like Ire 2.0 shows up.

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Like I said, I don't think either that it's likely. But of all people from Scadrial, he would have the best chance to actually find it. And who knows, maybe Sazed wanted to help Kelsier getting back, for whatever reason :P No, really: I don't expect it to happen. Buuuut it would be really cool ;)

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18 hours ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

My guess was always that Kelsier learned how the original Feruchemists got their powers and just did whatever they had done when he returned. So he'd basically be the Feruchemical equivalent of a Lerasium Mistborn.

I think the Original Feruchemist gained Feruchemy through Lerasium and Preservation's istructions but anyway if Kel is a Fullborn now. what is the point in crafting the BoM ?

The Southerns though without the BoM he will be powerless (or at least not so powerful) if I don't remember wrong.

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Yeah, you remember correct, that's what the Southerns thought.

But if you see it like that, aren't the BoM useless even if he isn't a Fullborn? To create them (if he actually created them himself) he'd need all the abilities that he stored. Why do that? Of course, you can give your powers a burst with it, but why would he hide it somewhere and come back any other time, and not just keep it so this "weapon" to boost his power is always with him? In my opinion, the only reason why he'd actually need them, is when he didn't create them himself, and I doubt that (idk why, I just want to believe he did it :P )

I'm actually not sure if it was discussed in this thread or another, but I think he didn't place them there for himself (for the reasons I wrote above) and that he wanted people to search for it, maybe to bring the 2 different nations together? To bring them something new, the possibility to create "Fullborn-Medaillons"? Who knows. There's always another secret

 

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I actually think they tapped a Lerasium/Atium alloy, but we really can't say. Could you show me where the Southerners say that the Sovereign needed the Bands? My understanding was that they knew he'd made them, and that he said he left them there for himself, which they interpreted as a challenge. In fact it seemed to me the opposite: '“You must be very skilled,” Allik said. “More skilled than any who has lived among us. Or…” He chuckled. “Or you’d have to have all the powers, rather than adding yours to the medallion, then passing it to another to have it added to! If that were the case, you’d be a great god indeed. As powerful as the Sovereign.”

'“He did create one of these,” Waxillium said, rubbing the medallion with his thumb. “One with all of the abilities. A bracer, or a set of them, that granted all sixteen Allomantic abilities and all sixteen Feruchemical abilities.”'

Alik followed this up by explaining that the Sovereign left the Bands behind and told his priests to protect them until he returned. I didn't see any indication that the Sovereign needed the Bands, but I could easily have overlooked something. (Like not noticing that the Sovereign's statue's spike is in the right eye. That was my hubby's discovery.)

On a totally different topic; Does anyone else get a Once and Future King feel from the story of the Sovereign? (Legendary ruler said to return someday being the obvious one, but there is something about how the Southerners talk about the Sovereign that makes me think he's King Arthur to them, as opposed to how the northerners do.)

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Yeah, I mean, of course he's gonna be their future King. To them he's like a god, so of course when he'd ever return to them, he'll be in the highest position (however you'll call it).

And there i share my opinion with yours. I don't think the Sovereign needs the BoM, and don't remember that I ever read something similar. More like how you described it.

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Maybe he created the Spearhead because he realized that while it's great to be a Fullborn, it would be rather useful (from a tactical point of view) to create a weapon that he could give his allies/followers, making someone he trusts  a Fullborn for a limited amount of time. You know, because TWO super powerfully Invested individuals are pretty much always better than one...

Second, as already mentioned in the thread, he created the Spearhead as a test for the Southerners, so that they would meet the Northerners one day on their own terms (not too soon), hoping it wouldn't go too poorly. Testing people (often in stupid ways, but this is Kelsier) is a thing he likes to do, so using the Bands as a test for the people of Scadrial (will they go to war or not?!) seems completely in character. Plus, I have a feeling that when Harmony was talking about trust to Wax, he wasn't just talking Marasi...

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My interpretation from BoM and Secret History was that Kel had returned to flesh as a Mistborn as he was previously, but with the added knowledge he'd picked up from bathing in the Well for years as well as holding Preservation briefly. 

 

Once he had his body back, he decided to delve into Hemalurgy as a way of gaining the full Feruchemical power set. I don't think he's a natural/organic feruchemist. 

 

All this kinda goes back to Kelsier's motivations for me. Him overthrowing the Final Empire wasn't about freeing his people, it was doing something huge that no one else could do. (Altruism may have leaked in there a little, but he was always an egomaniac, right to his death). Now that he completed that goal and punched a couple of gods, he's got loftier things in mind. He set himself up as a Lord Ruler analogue to prove that he could do so much better as Sovereign. After that point, I think his next step would be either a Hoid style Investiture grab, or he's going to gun for an individual shard. 

 

Although, his patriotism might win out a little and he'll start addressing Cosmere threats to Scadrial now that he's aware of enemies at the gates, like the intruders in the fortress (who I assume were from Sel). He could act as the Cosmere's version of the Punisher - an Investiture pumped individual with a loose moral code who isn't afraid to punch first. 

 

Back on topic, I see the Bands as more of an individual recruitment drive. I don't think they were intended to function as a race-wide game changer otherwise he would have made 16 of them (or more) so the Southerners would have plenty of fire-power (Keeping in mind that the Northerners have a full blown double shard watching over them).

 

The Bands smack of a moral fiber test: 1. Is someone smart/strong/bold-as-Kel enough to find the Bands? 

2. Will they use the limited power wisely? Will they defend the realm or try to Lord Ruler it up? Remember that the Bands had very limited charge - enough for someone unskilled to single-handedly win a one-sided battle, but not enough to raze a city without a lot of skill. (In my estimate anyway, with the vague terms that the Bands were discussed after the final fight) 

I wouldn't be surprised if Sovereign or Marsh show up soon after the Bands have been found to weigh up the Wax posse. 

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The Southerners see ALL metalborn as deities. I have a theory that this predates Kell's visit (think about it; occasionally someone goes through tremendous difficulty and returns with strange powers. Of COURSE they would think of these people as gods.) So Kelsier is just a very powerful God to the Southerners, but in and of itself that isn't especially special. Allik's quote indicates that to me.

What makes the Sovereign special beyond other gods is that A) he saved them andB) he united the different tribes under himself. He's their over king; the one person all the tribes follow. Allik and his people are clearly Germanic in inspiration; this wasn't unheard of among them. 

The Search for the Holy Grail is one of the Arthurian myths. A mythical weapon left behind and a king leaving this realm with the promise to return someday is another. And the Arthur of legend DID unify several disparate peoples, only for them to divide again on his (seeming?) death.

It also adds to the dichotomy of the two groups if my theory is correct. To the North Kelsier is THE major deity. He is known for tearing down a ruling class, and bringing down kings. To the South he is just a more powerful god, but he is their king and overlord. He united them and reformed their society as their ruler. I am VERY much looking forward to the theological upheavals on BOTH sides!!

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Hoid's unlocked coppermind shows Kelsier's arms covered in scars. If our Sovereign is wearing Sazed's body -- or anyone else's -- he would have to have deliberately carved up his own arms for the sake of brand recognition. That's possible -- it's definitely something I could see him doing -- but it does make it a little less likely.

Shadows of Self, hardcover p. 133:

Quote

Wait, Wax thought. Did I just get sarcastic with God Himself?

Yes you did, Harmony said. It is well. Few act that way toward me, even among the kandra. It feels good to me. Like older times. Since Kelsier... well, I haven't had much of that.

It would appear that Sazed has not heard from Kell in some time. Since the Sovereign has at least one spike, Harmony should be able to make contact pretty easily, so I'd take this as evidence that Kelsier has gone off-world.

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9 hours ago, Wonko the Sane said:

Hoid's unlocked coppermind shows Kelsier's arms covered in scars. If our Sovereign is wearing Sazed's body -- or anyone else's -- he would have to have deliberately carved up his own arms for the sake of brand recognition. That's possible -- it's definitely something I could see him doing -- but it does make it a little less likely.

Investiture healing appears to be working based on self-image and sense of identity. If Kelsier's spirit possessed a body, it could be that his ingrained self-image of having scarred arms (which do form a huge part of his personal identity, being connected to his time in the Pits) caused the body to "heal" appropriately.

On another note, upvote for that catch! I completely missed that line, and it seems to imply that Kelsier is, indeed, not on Scadrial at the moment. Either that or him and Sazed don't feel the need to converse all that much, which would be quite strange.

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Or they have had some sort of falling out, which is not impossible. Though I'd think Kell is more likely to be responsible if that is the case. It could even be both.

for some reason I don't see them getting along as well as they used to.

BTW, has anyone here read found objects? I found it on fanfiction.net and it has a very amusing take on what Kell might be doing in his spare time.

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I think Kel made Spook learn Hemaluurgy and Kel from the CR poured his Identity into a spike which Spook drove through one of his eyes.

Now its a cross between Spook and Kel.  Or its both and they share or take turns being in control of the body. 

But knowing Kel he sweet talked Spook into taking full and total control if the body. 

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9 minutes ago, Thanatos said:

I think Kel made Spook learn Hemaluurgy and Kel from the CR poured his Identity into a spike which Spook drove through one of his eyes.

Now its a cross between Spook and Kel.  Or its both and they share or take turns being in control of the body. 

But knowing Kel he sweet talked Spook into taking full and total control if the body. 

Doubtful.  A spike through the eye isn't something easily hidden, and when people saw the medallions bearing the image of the Sovereign with a spike through one eye, no one said "that looks like the mark of the Lord Mistborn!"

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He wasnt lord mistborn when he put the spike threw his eye. 

Plus wasnt it confirmed that the Sovereign was Spook? With a spike threw his eye... and his arm were scared like Kels. 

Add that to Kel having Spook learn Hemaluurgy whilst Spook was Lord Mistborn..... then he disappeared and now we know he travelled south... now qith a spike through his eye

...

Edit.

Just got your point. 

Who alive would be able to join the dots that Spook is the Sovereign? Apart from the Kendra and Sazed. But would they mention it? Or got the chance too?

 

Edited by Thanatos
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