Cusicesh

[Jondesu]

Okay, so I just got the Stormlight Archives Pocket Companion (instructions here thanks to @Eccentric Hero), and came across this interesting quote: 

Quote

Cusicesh is a deeply mysterious spren, one of the largest and most powerful we’ve seen. It may be a shadow of some greater being, as the Stormfather is.

While Cusicesh is certainly mysterious, I'd never considered it being a spren of something (someone?) else. We know Honor was splintered, and have assumed Cultivation is working behind the scenes, but she seems to not be doing anything specific we can determine.

What if Cultivation has been injured/damaged by Odium, but he was prevented by the Oathpact or something else from splintering her? We've seen a damaged Shard before, but it was self-inflicted. A Shard damaged like that by another Shard might have significant issues, and Cusicesh might be showing the effects of that. I'm having trouble connecting Cusicesh to Cultivation by behavior or looks, but the connection is hard to ignore.

jW

[Argent]

Yeah, Cusicesh has been bothering me for a long time. I don't know whether size and power are correlated in spren, but super massive spren are definitely special. I don't believe it to be a cognitive shadow of a Shard however, or anything similar, mainly because we know there have only been three Shards on Roshar, and we know them. Its collection of faces leads me to believe that it is somehow related to (some of?) the people on Roshar. I've had the pet theory that it is somehow related to the Recreance - it's the only event I could think of that could be related to a specific time (since Cusicesh appears at exactly the same time every day) that could have an impact to Shadesmar, maybe large enough to spawn a new spren. Alternatively, I could see it being Roshar's spren, with its faces being all the people on the planet - but I think this hypothesis a little less likely.

[Yata]

The "fatique" effect after his show made me think that he try (maybe with success) to bond with all the near Humans to feed of them in some way (maybe to try to restore his former mind).

[Thunder_93]

Sorry if it's maybe a little in the wrong place...

But I'd really like to get this book, but as I understand it you can only get it in participating stores in America...

But as I'm from Switzerland, I can't get it (already digital version would be good, but I'd prefer a physical one).

Anyone an idea how/where I can get it...?

[DSC01]

I don't know if physical copies are widely available. I'm in America, and I could only get the digital version. I'm not sure if it's still available (or if the deal would be available in Switzerland), but Tor.com was giving away the digital version right here. All you have to do is sign up for their newsletter. I'm pretty sure that I was already signed up, but they still gave it to me.

Anyway, back to Cusicesh... Is it possible that it's the same kind of relic of the Recreance that Shardblades are? When the Stormfather said that he would not consent to becoming a Blade, that was not necessarily the first time any spren said something similar. Indeed, it would not be surprising if all Bondsmith spren were the same. Cusicesh could be what was left behind instead of a Shardblade when an ancient Bondsmith abandoned his oaths.

[+Harrycrapper]

23 minutes ago, Thunder_93 said:

Sorry if it's maybe a little in the wrong place...

But I'd really like to get this book, but as I understand it you can only get it in participating stores in America...

But as I'm from Switzerland, I can't get it (already digital version would be good, but I'd prefer a physical one).

Anyone an idea how/where I can get it...?

 

Check Ebay

[Eki]

1 hour ago, Argent said:

Yeah, Cusicesh has been bothering me for a long time. I don't know whether size and power are correlated in spren, but super massive spren are definitely special. I don't believe it to be a cognitive shadow of a Shard however, or anything similar, mainly because we know there have only been three Shards on Roshar, and we know them. Its collection of faces leads me to believe that it is somehow related to (some of?) the people on Roshar. I've had the pet theory that it is somehow related to the Recreance - it's the only event I could think of that could be related to a specific time (since Cusicesh appears at exactly the same time every day) that could have an impact to Shadesmar, maybe large enough to spawn a new spren. Alternatively, I could see it being Roshar's spren, with its faces being all the people on the planet - but I think this hypothesis a little less likely.

The Recreance seems to bave been more of a process than a single event - Honor describes the Knights Dalinar sees in a vision as only "the first". That one event we saw did kill a significant number of spren in a very short time, but still. Similar things seem to have happened later as well. The death of Honor probably had a more specific time though. What that makes Cusucesh, I don't know. I agree it's probably not a cognitive shadow.

[Blightsong]

My theory has always been that Cusicesh is of Adonalsium in some way.

[Yata]

5 minutes ago, Blightsong said:

My theory has always been that Cusicesh is of Adonalsium in some way.

Yeah it was my idea too (also if I place as Adonalsium Spren also Stormfather and Nightwatcher).

[Pagerunner]

3 hours ago, Jondesu said:

What if Cultivation has been injured/damaged by Odium, but he was prevented by the Oathpact or something else from splintering her? We've seen a damaged Shard before, but it was self-inflicted. A Shard damaged like that by another Shard might have significant issues, and Cusicesh might be showing the effects of that. I'm having trouble connecting Cusicesh to Cultivation by behavior or looks, but the connection is hard to ignore.

jW

Hmm, that raised some interesting questions for me along a bit of a tangent... I don't think Cusicesh is just of Cultivation, but possibly a combination of Investiture from both Honor and Cultivation. Let me spell out a couple important points that lead me to believe this (and I unfortunately cannot source any of these right now, but I promise to do so later if asked):

• Stormfather is to Honor, as Nightwatcher is to Cultivation, as the Unmade are to Odium. They are all super-splinters that have achieved their own sentience.
• Stormfather absorbed Honor's Cognitive Shadow. That's why he acts like 'ghost' of the Shard. That means that Cultivation doesn't have to be dead for Nightwatcher to exist, and that super-splinters don't come from Cognitive Shadows. Stormfather is the exception, not the rule.
• There are only three spren that a Bondsmith can bond with. This is elsewhere in the Companion, I've heard; I haven't had a chance to look for myself.
• On Scadrial, you have a magic system for each Shard and a combination system for three total.

So, that's why I think Cusicesh is the third Bondsmith super-splinter, a combination of Investiture from both Honor and Cultivation. The only Bondsmith at that time was bonded to him, and when the KR broke their oaths, it drove Cusicesh mad.

Now, I hadn't considered that it could be a splinter of Adonalsium, something that Honor and Cultivation replicated with Stormfather and Nightwatcher... it's possible, but I suspect the spren need to be of Honor/Cultivation to fit into the Surgebinding system. (I suspect we'll learn more about other Shards' Investiture fitting into Roshar when we get Szeth's book.) But, aside from the thematics of the thing, I don't see any problem with it.

Good catch. It definitely seems like there's more to Big C than I'd been giving him credit for.

[Argent]

11 minutes ago, Pagerunner said:

• There are only three spren that a Bondsmith can bond with. This is elsewhere in the Companion, I've heard; I haven't had a chance to look for myself.

Also confirmed by Brandon as canon.

[Jondesu]

Interesting to see the number of Bondsmith spren confirmed. That ties into a previous theory I had that the faces on Cusicesh are the faces of the Knights Radiant, either from all time or just from the Recreance, and that Cusicesh was broken because it was bonded to a Bondsmith who somehow tried to hold onto the spren bonds of the other Radiants, but failed and instead they somehow imprinted on Cusicesh.

Edit: I agree that Cusicesh isn't Cultivation's cognitive shadow, like the Stormfather at least thinks he is. Instead, I think such a major force on Roshar as Cultivation generated a spren representing her, but not actually her.

jW

Edited August 17, 2016 by Jondesu

[What's a Seawolf?]

Random thought:

Let's assume the Nightwatcher is another of three 'Bondsmith spren.'

If the Stormfather is of Honor, the Nightwathcer is of Cultivation, wouldn't it stand to reason that the third Bondsmith Spren is of Odium?

Yes spren are splinters of Honor, so having one of Odium would be odd (especially with him having the Unmade and probable Voidspren) but maybe there was some mixing going to create Cusicesh?  Or maybe since the other two Bondsmith spren are (may be using the incorrect terminology) cognitive shadows of Shards, Cusicesh is as well and just because it's the shadow of Odium does not make it immediately Unmade/voidspren/evil?

This is not thought out much at all, but is there a specific reason it can't be as simple as, 3 Shards, 3 Bondsmith Spren, one of each shard?

[Yata]

11 hours ago, What's a Seawolf? said:

Or maybe since the other two Bondsmith spren are (may be using the incorrect terminology) cognitive shadows of Shards

A cognitive Shadow is quite a ghost of someone (and usually it's a pretty rare condition). You can't have a Cognitive Shadow if the subject isn't dead. I say that because it seems you aren't to familiar with the concept.

It may exist a Tanavast(Honor)'s Cognitive Shadow because He is dead, but Cultivation and Odium are pretty alive. Therefore no Cognitive Shadows for them.

Edited August 18, 2016 by Yata

[Toaster Retribution]

I find it odd that a Bondsmith would bond something of Odium. Wouldn't that corrupt him/her? So yes, Stormfather might be of Honor and Cusicesh and/or Nightwatcher could be of Cultivation. But I have a hard time seeing any KR bonding spren being of Odium. Unless Odium tricks the Radiant into bonding the spren, and then influences the Radiant through it.

Also, if one has to be of Odium, why Cusicesh? Why not Nightwatcher? I know everyone connects her with Cultivation, but if the three shards each have a powerful spren, then what's sayin she cant be with Odium?

 

[Pagerunner]

Here's the source for relevant info about Nightwatcher and the Unmade from JordanCon:

Quote

1) The Nightwatcher and Stormfather are parallel entities such that NW:Cultivation::SF:Honor
2) There is sort of a parallel for Odium, but the parallel is the various Unmade instead of a single entitiy; 
3) They are parallel in that they are all Splinters; 
4) The Unmade are voluntary Splinters, because Odium ("like almost all of the other Shards") voluntarily splintered part of it's power
5) The SF is different from the others because it's a Sliver.

Not a direct quote, but a paraphrase. Nightwatcher is of Cultivation, and Cusicesh cannot be of Odium unless he is part of the Unmade.

We also know from JordanCon (from the RAFOlympics) that Cusicesh is at a lower level than Nightwatcher/Stormfather:

Quote

[49:40]

Q: Talking about the Stormfather, are the Nightwatcher and the giant water spren, Cusicesh, are they on the same level?

A: The Nightwatcher, yes. Um...uh...there are...I would say, a level below the Stormfather and the Nightwatcher who are also a much bigger deal than something like one of the sapient spren, and that’s what Cusicesh is.`
 

Q: So the Nightwatcher is a spren?
A: They call the Nightwatcher a spren. Everyone in the books thinks the Nightwatcher is a spren. That’s what they would call...that’s what they would call, if they knew what Honor was, they would call Honor a spren. A spren is Investiture that is alive. So they would call Nightblood a spren. That’s the word for what all of these things are. They would probably call Adonalsium a spren.

Lastly, we've known for a while that the Unmade can be bonded. From a WoR signing:

Quote

Q: Before the Recreance, there were three Bondsmiths. Did they all bond supersprens, or is Dalinar an exception?
A: They did something similar.

Q: Can the Unmade be bonded?
A: Wow...plausible. Er, possible, I should say.

 

Edited August 18, 2016 by Pagerunner
Quote tags are hard, guys...

[Eccentric Hero]

One Alcatraz easter egg is

Spoiler

Shard of Ryshadium (like the horse)

There is a theory (IIRC based on a death rattle) that there was a fourth shard that was there before Honor and Cultivation. Cuicesh might be the cognitive shadow of that shard. This is a possibility that hinges on the 4th shard theory being confirmed.

Edited August 19, 2016 by Eccentric Hero

[Djarskublar]

I don't think C... Don't know how to spell that... has anything to do with the Radiants. My bet is that it kinda does what Sazed does with wax. C guides those who died in the last day on to the next existence. We see their faces as it deals with each. Assuming it goes through 60 faces a second (enough to see each, but no more as Axies notes) it can go through a few thousand people in a minute. Assuming because of the size of the Alethi armies (approx 10k a piece) and assuming fairly standard rates on the ratio of soldiers to citizens... Extrapolating from the population of Alethkar to the rest of the continent, there can't really be more than 100 million people alive. Especially considering how inefficient their farming methods appear to have to be.

Assuming C sticks around flashing faces for 15 minutes (IIRC that is about how long it shows up every day) that is around 50k people a day. Or one in 2000 people a day. That's too many, so maybe my estimations are off. If it was one in 20,000 that would be reasonable. That's a lifespan of over 50 years assuming no infant mortality. I can see my Fermi estimation being off by a factor or two of ten that was some really quick and dirty estimation, even for Fermi estimation.

[DSC01]

That's not how it works, though. In all but the rarest of circumstances, people's souls are going to move on very shortly after death. The Vessel of the Shard on their planet doesn't have to help them move on, but some of them do. I would think it very unlikely that a Splinter would adopt this role, but I guess it isn't entirely impossible. Even so, they couldn't just do a quick 15-minute catch-up session every 24 hours.

[quadbox]

It seems to me that nahel-bond level spren that we've observed seem to fit on a *spectrum* from honour to cultivation.  For example honourspren being very clearly very close to honour, and wyndle clearly being very close to cultivation, but the other types we're aware of (highspren, ivory, etc) not clearly belonging to either shard's intent.

Why wouldnt the three god spren follow a similar pattern?  Stormfather pretty much pure honour, the Nightwatcher pretty much pure cultivation, and say cusicesh representing a point where their magics and intents were balanced equally?  Some kind of in-between godspren?

[dvoraen]

I don't really have anything profound to contribute, but I do ask one question:

 

Why is Cusicesh called 'the Protector'?  Something tells me we're going to find out maybe as early as the next book, because I can't shake the feeling that this moniker was earned on account of the Desolations.  There had to be SOME places safe from the fighting and destruction... right?

[Yata]

9 minutes ago, dvoraen said:

Why is Cusicesh called 'the Protector'?  Something tells me we're going to find out maybe as early as the next book, because I can't shake the feeling that this moniker was earned on account of the Desolations.  There had to be SOME places safe from the fighting and destruction... right?

Probably it's because he is stable in the same place for centuries and his daily show gives to the people the feeling of a purpose.

Nobody seems to know why Cusicesh does what he does or why it's there.... but a strange spren stable in a zone may be see as a local god...if the area is peacefully it's a guardian spirit (in a cause-effect train of though)

[Toaster Retribution]

10 hours ago, quadbox said:

the Nightwatcher pretty much pure cultivation,

Do we know this for sure, or is it just a theory?

[DrakeMarshall]

Well, Sanderson confirmed that C isn't equal to the Stormfather or Nightwatcher... Which makes sense I guess because both of those other two are fully sapient without bonding anyone.

 

Yes, C could be a mix of their investitures... I mean everything on Roshar is basically some mix of honor, cultivation, and odium's investiture (probably with the occasional touch of Adolnasium before the shattering).

 

I actually rather like the idea that C was the spren of the planet. I mean, it seems like a strange idea, but wouldn't a planet have a spren? The godspren are deliberately created as splinters by shards, so it makes sense that those would be vastly more powerful and intelligent than C... But the spren of an entire planet could still be huge. The only thing about this that doesn't seem to line up is that C is affiliated with a very specific time and place. If C was truly the spren of a whole planet I feel it would wander around a lot.

[Rasarr]

Stormfather's been mentioned as having been seriously hurt by Recreance, suggesting he was bonded at the time. He's also apparently merged with Tanavast's Cognitive Shadows, which could certainly give him some "oomph", compared to other spren, even godspren. 

Random theory time: I'm guessing Cuciseh used to be as powerful as Stormfather and Nightwatcher, and when Recreance came, there were two Bondsmiths, one with Cuciseh, one with Stormfather. Stormfather managed oathbreaking thanks to additional oomph of Tanavast's Cognitive Shadow, whereas Cuciseh didn't have that, and thus got broken, part of his power and sentience ripped out of him. Maybe he's displaying faces of all the Radiants he's been bonded with throughout the ages? With some 3,000-odd years between Aharietiam and Recreance, and then a long, long time of one Desolation after another, it could be a ton of people. Maybe that's Cuciseh's equivalent of a dog waiting for its dead master.

On 18.08.2016 at 11:00 AM, Chull #445 said:

Also, if one has to be of Odium, why Cusicesh? Why not Nightwatcher? I know everyone connects her with Cultivation, but if the three shards each have a powerful spren, then what's sayin she cant be with Odium?

Wyndle notes that his "mother" (i.e. Cultivation) picked Lift for Radianthood, and her "Awesomeness" is somehow the result of her visit to the Nightwatcher. This implies quite heavily that Nightwatcher=Cultivation.