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08/08/16 - Waning, Ch. 11 (L, V)


neongrey

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Previously: dead goddess, brother gone, etc, I'm not bothering to recap Lasila at all here since this is going to be a little moot soon.

It's been a while since we've seen Savae though, so here's where we're at with them:

Savae Alevrin, archmage, jeweler, and priest of the goddess of the moons arrived at the event honouring the rebirth of the goddess Maranthe on a bit of a mission: to obtain a token from one Senator Riruna; they hope that doing this will discharge debts tying them to the crime lord Varael Ashana. They are somehow involved with the death and rebirth of the goddess Alia and rise of her brother Kelriel; the mask worn by the priestess Maranthe and later Kelriel himself is certainly their own work.

Inevitably, they find themself working against their own interests...

So: if you could direct most of your focus onto the Savae sections; the Lasila stuff doesn't need more than a broad-strokes overview for reasons. That said, in both cases, sentence-level oddities are going to be unnecessary to point out; even stuff I can reuse mostly is going to require overhaul of the sentence structure for... more reasons

Per the notes left in the file, this isn't intended to be the first time we see Varael, and Savae's getting some rearrangement in general anyway so no need to worry too much about the text assuming familiarity between the two either.

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I'm not a fan of the amount of POV jumps in this chapter. Both Savae and Lasila have three POV paragraphs and at least for Lasila's second and third, the split seems rather arbitrary.

In Savae's last paragraph, I'm confused as to Savae's actions. At first they seem to be saying that they don't want to keep working with Varael. But after the first "We clear?" they start listing how they can still be useful to him. The arguments don't really match up with their point/goal. Am I maybe misreading what Savae wants to get out of this conversation?

There are some line edits I could offer, but you requested we don't, so this is all I've got for you at the moment.

Edited by Eagle of the Forest Path
character name SNAFU
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I believe Laurea is your main character, not mine... :P

Anyway, what Savae wants is their debt to be discharged; at present they're obligated to the Ashana. There's benefit to be had from the association, but as it stands it's not exactly a partnership.

And yeah, no point to line edits on this one. Even scenes that are being wholly reused need a tense change, so I've got to gut, rearrange, and reframe the component sentences anyway.

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47 minutes ago, neongrey said:

I believe Laurea is your main character, not mine... :P

Oops! Sorry. I typed in L-A- and then I guess muscle memory took over... 

As for the conversational confusion on my part, your explanation makes sense, and I can see that in Savae's part of the conversation, but Varael talking about "when we're done" still makes it sound (to me, at least) like Savae doesn't want to work with the Ashana anymore.
You could substitute "when we're even", perhaps?

Edited by Eagle of the Forest Path
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Overall

I'm liking Lasila more and more as the narrative progresses, but Savae remains much more fleshed out in my mind. I also enjoyed Savae's moonlight nudity scene. Beautiful imagery.

 

Specifics

- page 5: just a mention - is Alaeria being purposefully obtuse in describing the actions of her son and how similar they are to the father? Those actions are pretty much every baby ever at that age. Is she saying it to make a point, or are we to glean that she doesn't have much experience at all with children?

- page 7-8: the dialogue of Varael is very...thugish. So much so that it pulls me out of the narrative. He speaks like a guttered human in the 20th or 21st century. It adds a place, time, and species to what is otherwise a very fantasy-esque piece. Added to that, Savae did a lot of posturing just to be quelled by the pain. I was looking for some type of ability to deal with the pain, or to fight back. I was disappointed when they were apparently quelled.

- page 8: I had hoped that Lasilia's vision going grey was a prelude to her looking in on the Savae action. Since it was not (I think?), I'm unsure why you have two POVs swapping out like this in one chapter. I'm used to seeing it when events are running tandem and then merge at some point. To just have tandem events, separate chapters could be used with less confusion (I see @Eagle of the Forest Path has similar comments here).

 

 

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54 minutes ago, kaisa said:

- page 5: just a mention - is Alaeria being purposefully obtuse in describing the actions of her son and how similar they are to the father? Those actions are pretty much every baby ever at that age. Is she saying it to make a point, or are we to glean that she doesn't have much experience at all with children?

This would, in fact, be a joke, though she's somewhat purposefully keeping Savae disarmed. (but no, she doesn't much care for dealing with children)

55 minutes ago, kaisa said:

- page 7-8: the dialogue of Varael is very...thugish. So much so that it pulls me out of the narrative. He speaks like a guttered human in the 20th or 21st century.

Indeed he is, and he does-- it's very much intentional (and pins back toward why he and Savae are working together). Savae travels in... very different circles from Lasila, and the overall tone of their story is quite a bit different. I suspect it'll play better when he's more thoroughly threaded-in, but he absolutely is to be an incredibly sharp contrast to nearly everyone else. I don't know that these scenes work at all without that. Savae's plot's in very bad shape in this draft, by which I mean it's ultimately more of an outline at absolute best.

1 hour ago, kaisa said:

Added to that, Savae did a lot of posturing just to be quelled by the pain. I was looking for some type of ability to deal with the pain, or to fight back. I was disappointed when they were apparently quelled.

Savae here is more than a little overconfident (over-estimating the value of what they retrieved at the party? should have listened to Aserahin) and makes critical mistakes basically the moment Alaeria walks in. (which should not be overtly obvious, necessarily). Savae isn't per se out of their league but they've been put into a disadvantageous position here-- both overall and in this scene in particular. But like I said, I don't know that the scene works very well right now in the first place, so.

1 hour ago, kaisa said:

- page 8: I had hoped that Lasilia's vision going grey was a prelude to her looking in on the Savae action. Since it was not (I think?), I'm unsure why you have two POVs swapping out like this in one chapter. I'm used to seeing it when events are running tandem and then merge at some point.

Swaps here are done along lines of theme, actually (though they are also more or less in chronological order). Religious practice, messengers, the use of forbidden power, etc. 

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Hmmm, I was similarly confused along with kaisa and Eagle on Savae's interview with Varael.  I also did not enjoy the POV jumps, especially with the amount of name-dropping in this chapter.  Mostly I had confusion in this chapter, though hopefully it will be fixed by the restructuring.


pg 1: "They had no desire to waste the rest of this night with their voice raised up in a song of praise to a foreign god. :
--much better reason to leave the party early than Lasila.

pg 1: "The aelin had taken enough from their people"
--From Savae's people?  Might need a name clarifier here.

pg 1: "Lilune's call to action"
--have we met Lilune yet?
"Lilune's bright face"
--ah.  got it.

pg 2: As usual, I enjoy Savae's sections.  Interested to learn more about the moon goddesses

pg 2-4: Lasila's section here was interesting, despite not a lot happening.  It did explain more of what was going on with the party.

pg 4: so we know Alaeria, or am I forgetting something? Not sure where she fits into things.

pg 3-4: I'm fairly confused with Savae's section.  Not sure what's going on or why Alaeria and her baby matter.

pg 5: Alphabet soup.  I really don't remember all the names you're throwing out except for Eshrin and Maranthe.

pg 7-8:  I assume the earlier sections will help clear up what is going on here?  I don't really know what the plot is.

pg 8-9: Lasila's section is starting to get more interesting than Savae's, mainly because she's learning about magic now.

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- The opening part with Savae was interesting in terms of developing the world, but I wasn't as engaged with the character as I am with Lasila.

- I liked Lasila's sections a bit more because she seems so grounded, and we have a clear picture of what she wants and why she wants it. I also liked that her questions build up the intrigue without the narrative.

- The line about public urination falls a bit flat, especially when the previous line mentions vomiting.

- Varael's swearing seems a little out of place, but should be because we've seen only the upper echelons of this world thus far.

- Overall, a good section. Some of it was more exciting that others, but I'm curious to see where this goes. 

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So I am catching up! I read through the past two submissions and have similar comments to Mandamon and Kasia.

On this one, I'll second that the POV jumps are a bit much. They don't generate tension so much as make the reader ask "wait - so this is the same character as before... right? and make the reader lose the pace and go back to check the previous section.

So I'm reading the first few paragraphs here and a familiar problem is coming up for me with the story so far. There is so much world building - but it is 1. not driven by conflict and 2. does not clearly set the world up for the reader. I want to actually be helpful on what I mean by this, so I'll try to go through my reactions as the story starts.

I know like the most important fact: Savae doesn't like Aelin and is working against them. Sort of. Because of spite?

That's a little boring. But then we say that actually their clan wants to end the hostilities so they'll fight fire with fire and aelin with aelin.

AH. But I thought the reason was spite?

This confusing jumble is why interiority is one of the absolutely worst techniques to deliver this sort of information to the reader.

Why were there hostilities in the first place? What is the specific reason that Savae has made this choice to be a co-conspirator/double agent? I feel like we're missing a scene in which we watch Savae's LIFE BE CRUSHED. In which we feel their pain, etc. Understanding Savae's personal motivation would go along way toward clarifying their mission.

There are several things in this world that are deeply confusing to me. I know that the author understands them, but we're 11 chapters in, and if I weren't editing, you would have lost me after a chapter or two. Some key areas of worldbuilding I want to focus on:

Titles. I know names and titles are important but I don't know why except that it's a way to demean people. So far it doesn't actually seem that Lasilla has suffered for messing up with this. We just navigate this social world along with her but so far they don't add anything but confusion. Also, they need to be CLEARLY EXPLAINED. With consequences that matter to Lasilla's internal stakes. 

The War. Why are they fighting? What is at stake? Who's the bad guy to Lasilla? Right now her own society's suppression of women seems like the worst thing in my mind. Anyway, with the war.... even if you mentioned it, this sort of detail should not only be repeated but repeated and deepened as the story progresses so that the reader is on board.

Sexuality. Women are super suppressed in society, and yet there's sexual freedom - Lasila goes from being a naive ingenue to a sex kitten at the temple - holy cow. I need way more set up here. I need to know the rules. Like, is seduction considered a social talent? What can it get a woman? How can it hurt her? How does reproduction and birth control work in this society, especially with the war going on (wars tend to increase the demand for babies)? 

Ways to fix this:

Avoid interiority. It's sort of your crutch in your writing, and it's not bad, but the more you can write in scenes with other characters interacting, the more key pieces of information will fix in readers' minds. 

The reading excuses podcasts recommends either having a) your protagonist learn something for the first time (which is fun - because the reader learns alongside them, making and feeling their mistakes with them) or b - have some other newbie around to ask the questions. In Lasila's case, she seems to go instantly from naive, sheltered JaneEyre!Lasila to wise-to-the-world LizzyBennet!Lasila. It's much more fun if she screws up more. Let some people be cruel to her, and then have her learn, with others kindness and then be bold as she becomes.

For Savae - I almost feel like you need a dumb sidekick to explain crap to us. Or more setup scenes. This is a really common story technique, but nothing is more effective at clarifying information to the reader.

Chapter Specific Notes:

Your imagery with Savae dancing beneath the moon is lovely.

Then... All that happens in the first part of the scene with Illuya and Lasila is that they talk. And apparently demonstrate they have no idea how to seed a pomegranate. There is no reason for their hands to be stained. Unless they've never dealt with a pomegranate in their life. Granted, I know there aren't youtube videos they can watch to figure the water method out on the fly, but if pomegranates are remotely indigenous, there shouldn't be staining. 

Beets on the other hand... or hell, make up a whole new fruit.

I think you can amp up the Illuya scene by having her demonstrate magic off the bat and freak Lasilla out. More tension.

The cursing from Vareal also seemed out of the blue to me.

Yeah, and we end on a paperwork scene with Lasilla/Illuya. I'd consider cutting this and getting right to the training. "Sit down in the kitchen and talk" scenes always slow down the tension... unless someone is behaving badly.

 

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Hmmm. That's actually really helpful, which is a really short answer to you putting in a lot of work but I think is the best way in this case to keep me from thinking out loud in ways that sound like 'but actually'. I think on a lot of this what I was intending to convey just wasn't coming through at all; naive definitely wasn't what I was going for.

But the gist too is that a lot of the things you were wondering about is stuff that basically was about to come up, which is ultimately too late for it. I'm rearranging a lot of plotlines here so we'll see how this goes; so far I think the result is vastly superior.

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I'm just not on it today really. I got to Page 4, I think, comments below, but I ran out of steam at a particular point.

I found the second paragraph a bit oblique. I'm not sure I know what certain of these comments are in reference to.

Good scene with Savae. Lots of passion in the ritual and a good commentary in her thoughts and actions to create interest in her agenda. Lovely imagery too.

Well, if Alia or the Sleeper both would offer no refuge to the soul if one sought the dread powers of the shudkathra, it would make sense if a priestess would look for a god who would.” There’s all kinds of stuff going on in the narrative that I'm purposely trying (and failing) to ignore. I'm just not capable of ‘walking’ past and keeping my hands in my pockets.

This was about temporal power in some way, if not immediate then at least centred upon this lifetime and not whatever lay beyond.” – I don’t know what this means. It doesn’t seem to fit with the context of events to date, that I can figure.

Did she intend to do more than speculate?” – Okay, a camel somewhere just collapsed in a heap. Lasila is now speculating about whether or not to speculate. This is the epitome of passivity. I can do passivity up to a point, but we just left Passivity in the rear view mirror on the Route 1 to Apathy.

I'm trying I really am, but my patience with Lasila’s journey (as the protagonist in a novel) just passed its Expiration date.

Having read through the comments of others before posting this, I have similar confusion about names, leading to further confusion about who wants what and why. The more I disconnect from the story, the harder it is to maintain progress, of course. It’s been a long day – so I'm going to call it that. I hope to resume in due course.

<R>

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1 hour ago, Robinski said:

There’s all kinds of stuff going on in the narrative that I'm purposely trying (and failing) to ignore. I'm just not capable of ‘walking’ past and keeping my hands in my pockets.

No worries, but it's literally for your benefit rather than mine (and that's fine too, haha); I'm not able to use the old material for more than notes. So it's good to know which elements are worth sliding over into my rejiggering of things (which would be why I didn't just remove the Lasila stuff entirely from the sub), but there's just a whole lot of entirely different sentence structure that's required. 

1 hour ago, Robinski said:

Having read through the comments of others before posting this, I have similar confusion about names, leading to further confusion about who wants what and why. The more I disconnect from the story, the harder it is to maintain progress, of course. It’s been a long day – so I'm going to call it that. I hope to resume in due course.

Don't sweat it; where you cut off is good to know too, and the content in this one is far enough out that surviving scenes are unlikely to strongly resemble what they become. Savae's might be more intact, but we'll see when we get there; they too can only benefit from what I'm doing right now. Either way, don't force yourself.

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On 8/12/2016 at 4:12 PM, neongrey said:

Hmmm. That's actually really helpful, which is a really short answer to you putting in a lot of work but I think is the best way in this case to keep me from thinking out loud in ways that sound like 'but actually'. I think on a lot of this what I was intending to convey just wasn't coming through at all; naive definitely wasn't what I was going for.

But the gist too is that a lot of the things you were wondering about is stuff that basically was about to come up, which is ultimately too late for it. I'm rearranging a lot of plotlines here so we'll see how this goes; so far I think the result is vastly superior.

Yeah, I mean you're not info-dumping - which is GREAT - and info dumping is what most fantasy/scifi writers do in early drafts, but you almost have the opposite problem where you're being too coy with the worldbuilding to ground the reader and so the reader gets very frustrated as the plot gains in complexity. 

Anyway,  I think this is all very fixable. I also think the early scenes of the book could work harder in terms of tension and also doing a lot of this "grounding" - and I suspect that your rewrites are getting you there. :)

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Yeah, possibly the most frustrating thing about tossing the old stuff (and it is mostly tossing, even if I can still consult it) is that it's working quite well. Well, we'll see in a couple days, and then I'm gonna take a week or two off to get further ahead on this.

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