Who is the bigger cremling?

[Pathfinder]

12 minutes ago, CaptainRyan said:

Agree.

Agree.

If I understand what you are saying then I slightly disagree here. Dalinar is not offering Amaram a chance to come clean here but, rather, previously Dalinar waited to give Amaram time to admit to Dalinar that Amaram had stolen the Blade from the cave and lied about it. At this point in the game Dalinar is past allowing Amaram to come clean.

 

Agree but not because I think Amaram was trying to kill Dalinar but because Amaram would use his superior weapon and armor status to resist being arrested and taken to trial.

 

It seems like we, basically, agree on everything that is occurring but not quite on why it was occurring. Again, the big factor for me is that there is literally nothing to be gained, and everything to be lost, by blatantly attacking Dalinar. Sadeas is Amaram's liege lord and would be more than willing to protect Amaram from Dalinar as long as Amaram can get to Sadeas. If Amaram gets arrested now then it becomes a lot harder for him. Also, Amaram is still safe from Kaladin's accusations in a legal sense because Dalinar only proved that Amaram would lie about a Shardblade he found in a cave which definitely does not translate into therefore he would murder his own troops to get a set. So, at the expense of beating this poor, dead horse I just do not see any reason for Amaram to attack/kill Dalinar and I see every reason for Amaram to insure that he can get out of here and back to somewhere more defensible in both the physical and the legal sense. 

I am not sure how one could fight purely defensive with a blade that can cut through anything unless the other person also has one. If anyone tried to arrest Amaram with his shardblade, while no one else had one, it would be a massacre. 

also i feel the amount of time and chances Amaram had to come clean is all the more damning. 

Edited August 11, 2016 by Pathfinder

[CaptainRyan]

@Argel, when I read my quote in your post I was super confused because it looked like I was saying I thought Amaram was going to kill Dalinar when I thought I had written the opposite but then I realized that the quote was not the entire sentence haha. I had to do, like, a quadruple take though.

 

5 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

I am not sure how one could fight purely defensive with a blade that can cut through anything unless the other person also has one. If anyone tried to arrest Amaram with his shardblade, while no one else had one, it would be a massacre.

Exactly. If Amaram could get his Blade out and force everyone back then he could easily escape. If he did not summon his Blade and soldiers quickly jumped him/knocked him down then he could, possibly, be beaten out of his armor, tied up, and taken to trial. By summoning his Blade and becoming "alert, as if preparing for a fight" then he greatly lessens the odds of being jumped - no sane soldier would try to arrest a full Shardbearer if said Shardbearer already has their Blade out, eh?

Basically, Amaram was deterring the possibility of arrest by summoning his trump card. Little did he realize that Dalinar had his own trump card.

Edited August 11, 2016 by CaptainRyan

[Pathfinder]

1 minute ago, CaptainRyan said:

@Argel, when I read my quote in your post I was super confused because it looked like I was saying I thought Amaram was going to kill Dalinar when I thought I had written the opposite but then I realized that the quote was not the entire sentence haha. I had to do, like, a quadruple take though.

 

Exactly. If Amaram could get his Blade out and force everyone back then he could easily escape. If he did not summon his Blade and soldiers quickly jumped him/knocked him down then he could, possibly, be beaten out of his armor, tied up, and taken to trial. By summoning his Blade and becoming "alert, as if preparing for a fight" then he greatly lessens the odds of being jumped - no sane soldier would try to arrest a full Shardbearer if said Shardbearer already has their Blade out, eh?

Basically, Amaram was deterring the possibility of arrest by summoning his trump card. Little did he realize that Dalinar had his own trump card.

I guess we will just have to agree to disagree. For me when you confront someone with something they did wrong, their first instinct is to reach for a weapon? I honestly don't see how that makes things better. Going on your premise, there is a reason why when a cop attempts to apprehend a suspect, that if said suspect reaches for the weapon at his or her side, the cop has license to fire in self defense (now this is not in regards to the shootings involving cops and african americans in the USA. that is separate from what we are discussing.)

[Argel]

@CaptainRyan Sorry, I updated that quote!

@Pathfinder, as CaptainRyan pointed out, shardblades make great deterrents. Most soldiers without a shardblade will not even attack someone with one.

[Pathfinder]

Just now, Argel said:

@CaptainRyan Sorry, I updated that quote!

@Pathfinder, as CaptainRyan pointed out, shardblades make great deterrents. Most soldiers without a shardblade will not even attack someone with one.

So would someone with a gun, but the response to someone drawing a gun on you is still the assumption that they intend to shoot and kill. 

[CaptainRyan]

2 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

I guess we will just have to agree to disagree. For me when you confront someone with something they did wrong, their first instinct is to reach for a weapon? I honestly don't see how that makes things better. Going on your premise, there is a reason why when a cop attempts to apprehend a suspect, that if said suspect reaches for the weapon at his or her side, the cop has license to fire in self defense (now this is not in regards to the shootings involving cops and african americans in the USA. that is separate from what we are discussing.)

Whoa. I never said I condoned Amaram's actions or that Amaram's actions are the same actions I would choose if I was being falsely accused. I was simply interpreting what occurred in the book. This is not "my premise" but, rather, it is Amaram's premise.

Also, if you do not mind, would you please explain how Amaram cutting down Dalinar in front of thousands of witnesses would improve Amaram's situation? That is the hold up for me being able to accept your interpretation of the situation as valid. The only possible way I could see Amaram doing that is if he panicked but there is no mention of him acting panicky. Killing Dalinar, who is someone Amaram respects greatly, would be literally the worst possible response in this scenario.

 

@Argel, no worries haha. You didn't have to update the quote but thanks for doing that! I was merely surprised at what I had, seemingly, written haha.

[Pathfinder]

Just now, CaptainRyan said:

Whoa. I never said I condoned Amaram's actions or that Amaram's actions are the same actions I would choose if I was being falsely accused. I was simply interpreting what occurred in the book. This is not "my premise" but, rather, it is Amaram's premise.

Also, if you do not mind, would you please explain how Amaram cutting down Dalinar in front of thousands of witnesses would improve Amaram's situation? That is the hold up for me being able to accept your interpretation of the situation as valid. The only possible way I could see Amaram doing that is if he panicked but there is no mention of him acting panicky. Killing Dalinar, who is someone Amaram respects greatly, would be literally the worst possible response in this scenario.

 

@Argel, no worries haha. You didn't have to update the quote but thanks for doing that! I was merely surprised at what I had, seemingly, written haha.

The Implication is Dalinar has shardplate on him. If anyone could catch up with, and slow down a shardbearer, it would be someone with plate. If Dalinar didn't have the armor, Amaram could have just run, and no one could have caught up with him. Dalinar could, and considering how we have seen him fighting, it is possible that Dalinar could even win. So Amaram needs to get a quick and decisive strike taking Dalinar out, so he can flee. Since Dalinar doesn't have a shardblade, that would allow Amaram to get the drop on him, take him out, and run. 

[Toaster Retribution]

15 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

The Implication is Dalinar has shardplate on him. If anyone could catch up with, and slow down a shardbearer, it would be someone with plate. If Dalinar didn't have the armor, Amaram could have just run, and no one could have caught up with him. Dalinar could, and considering how we have seen him fighting, it is possible that Dalinar could even win. So Amaram needs to get a quick and decisive strike taking Dalinar out, so he can flee. Since Dalinar doesn't have a shardblade, that would allow Amaram to get the drop on him, take him out, and run. 

Did Dalinar really wear plate during that scene? Don't think he did.

[Pathfinder]

2 minutes ago, Chull #445 said:

Did Dalinar really wear plate during that scene? Don't think he did.

Amaram had plate as it was mentioned by Kaladin. They both dismounted from their horses as the army was preparing to head out to the shattered plains. After the confrontation, Dalinar gets back up on his horse to lead the army to head out to the shattered plains. Dalinar has never gone to battle with his army out of shardplate. So although it is not explicitly stated, it in my opinion can be assumed. 

[CaptainRyan]

20 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

The Implication is Dalinar has shardplate on him

 

1 minute ago, Chull #445 said:

Did Dalinar really wear plate during that scene? Don't think he did.

As far as I can tell, Dalinar was not wearing Plate.

 

As @Pathfinder said earlier, I think we will just have to agree to disagree here. Technically, a WoB on this would settle it but I honestly do not think it is really worth that level of attention haha. Both interpretations work just fine for the story, I think.

[Pathfinder]

1 minute ago, CaptainRyan said:

 

As far as I can tell, Dalinar was not wearing Plate.

 

As @Pathfinder said earlier, I think we will just have to agree to disagree here. Technically, a WoB on this would settle it but I honestly do not think it is really worth that level of attention haha. Both interpretations work just fine for the story, I think.

As I said just before you posted, they were heading to war. Here is the scene:

Dalinar dismissed the Balde. "Go" he said walking back toward his horse, where Highprince Roion - looking stunned - was watching Amaram stalk away, his personal guard of fifty joining him.

Yes, that was Aladar's banner, joining Dalinar's. Sadeas could make it out through the spyglass. He lowered it, and sat quietly for a long, long time.

 

So as you can see, they were leaving for the Shatteredplains. Dalinar has never gone to combat on the shatteredplains without his shardplate. 

[CaptainRyan]

9 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

Dalinar has never gone to combat on the shatteredplains without his shardplate. 

He gave his Shardplate to Renarin much earlier in the book [edit: Actually, now I cannot remember if he gave it to Renarin at the end of Way of Kings or during Words of Radiance - either way, Dalinar gave it to Renarin long before this moment]. Dalinar has no Shardplate at this point. Later, when they are fighting the Stormform Parshendi, Dalinar goes to battle with no Shardplate.

Edited August 11, 2016 by CaptainRyan