Who is the bigger cremling?

[Pathfinder]

7 hours ago, goody153 said:

He didn't really know that the key might just be helping the actual radiants, i mean who actually knows aside from Dalinar what should be done. At least he's doing it for the greater good compared to Sadeas who's practically pure greed reasons.

But here is a question. You keep saying it is for the greater good. The reason the Sons of Honor are trying to bring about the Desolations is to bring back the Heralds. The Heralds are then to legitimize their church so then Alethkar becomes a theocracy once more. Amaram and the Sons of Honor are literally trying to bring about the apocalypse so the government can be run the way they think it should be. Its like shooting off the nuke to kill everyone that disagrees with you, and if any of your own supporters happen to die too, then ah well, at least everyone now agrees with you. 

[goody153]

3 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

But here is a question. You keep saying it is for the greater good. The reason the Sons of Honor are trying to bring about the Desolations is to bring back the Heralds. The Heralds are then to legitimize their church so then Alethkar becomes a theocracy once more. Amaram and the Sons of Honor are literally trying to bring about the apocalypse so the government can be run the way they think it should be. Its like shooting off the nuke to kill everyone that disagrees with you, and if any of your own supporters happen to die too, then ah well, at least everyone now agrees with you. 

They are trying to bring the voidbringers back but we don't know their clear motive. I mean if they really just wanted to bring the end to the world,  why would araman mention something about collecting accomplished shardbearers in order to survive the incoming desolation. It doesn't make sense if they are purely "evil" or wanted to end the world why prepare to fight it. 

And bringing the voidbringers might just even be their move that they wanted to bring knight radiants back or maybe make the world unite as 1 or something. We don't really completely know their motivations and we don't even know if possibly this is Cultivations influence on them cause being painful at the start so that it gets better later seems like a thing cultivation would do.

[Pathfinder]

7 minutes ago, goody153 said:

They are trying to bring the voidbringers back but we don't know their clear motive. I mean if they really just wanted to bring the end to the world,  why would araman mention something about collecting accomplished shardbearers in order to survive the incoming desolation. It doesn't make sense if they are purely "evil" or wanted to end the world why prepare to fight it. 

And bringing the voidbringers might just even be their move that they wanted to bring knight radiants back or maybe make the world unite as 1 or something. We don't really completely know their motivations and we don't even know if possibly this is Cultivations influence on them cause being painful at the start so that it gets better later seems like a thing cultivation would do.

Actually we have a very good indicator from Amaram's letter to Restares. Please see below:

I can only conclude that we have been succesful, Restares. The reports from Dalinar's army indicate that Voidbringingers were not only spotted, but fought. Red eyes, ancient powers. They have apparently unleashed a new storm upon this world.

I do not exult in this success. Lives will be lost. It has ever been our burden as the Sons of Honor. To return the Heralds, to return the dominance of the Church, we had to put the world into a crisis.

That crisis we now have, a terrible one. The Heralds will return. How can they not, with the problems we now face? But many will die. So very many. Nalan send that it is worth the loss. Regardless, I will have more information soon. When I next write you, I hope to do so from Urithiru.

—Amaram's letter to Restares^[1]

 

So they consciously went about bringing a crisis (the desolation), with the goal of bringing back the Heralds (that they didn't even know would return for certain, which means they could have caused the end of the world with no way to stop it), to get the Church back on top. They know countless people will die, but hope it will be worth it because the Church will be back in power. So again, nuking people that don't agree with you, hoping enough people that do agree with you survive to say you are right. 

Edited August 10, 2016 by Pathfinder

[goody153]

7 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

Actually we have a very good indicator from Amaram's letter to Restares. Please see below:

I can only conclude that we have been succesful, Restares. The reports from Dalinar's army indicate that Voidbringingers were not only spotted, but fought. Red eyes, ancient powers. They have apparently unleashed a new storm upon this world.

I do not exult in this success. Lives will be lost. It has ever been our burden as the Sons of Honor. To return the Heralds, to return the dominance of the Church, we had to put the world into a crisis.

That crisis we now have, a terrible one. The Heralds will return. How can they not, with the problems we now face? But many will die. So very many. Nalan send that it is worth the loss. Regardless, I will have more information soon. When I next write you, I hope to do so from Urithiru.

—Amaram's letter to Restares^[1]

 

So they conciously went about bringing a crisis (the desolation), with the goal of bringing back the Heralds (that they didn't even know would return for certain, which means they could have caused the end of the world with no way to stop it), to get the Church back on top. They know countless people will die, but hope it will be worth it because the Church will be back in power. So again, nuking people that don't agree with you, hoping enough people that do agree with you survive to say you are right. 

but in the end all this actions still aims so that the Church goes back in control and the heralds back in action(they probably know the situation about the heralds) i'm not saying that their means are not terrible but ultimately they have good intention which is the better state of the world(in their perspective it's a better state ofc it's not true but all actions done by men who wanted to make the world the better place first they have to believe they are right and that includes Dalinar ofc Dalinar is right this time but that doesn't mean he's different .. he's the same he believes that he is doing things for the betterment of the world .. amaram is doing the same rust only that he's wrong )

Compared to Sadeas who literally only cares about power and doesn't even care even if he knew those voidbringers are back even when the evidence are clear. Sadeas practically just cares about himself. Yeah it is pretty clear who's the more awful cremling here.

Edited August 10, 2016 by goody153

[Pathfinder]

8 minutes ago, goody153 said:

but in the end all this actions still aims so that the Church goes back in control and the heralds back in action(they probably know the situation about the heralds) i'm not saying that their means are not terrible but ultimately they have good intention which is the better state of the world(in their perspective it's a better state ofc it's not true but all actions done by men who wanted to make the world the better place first they have to believe they are right and that includes Dalinar ofc Dalinar is right this time but that doesn't mean he's different .. he's the same he believes that he is doing things for the betterment of the world .. amaram is doing the same rust only that he's wrong )

Compared to Sadeas who literally only cares about power and doesn't even care even if he knew those voidbringers are back. Yeah it is pretty clear who's the more awful cremling here.

But it is the Sons of Honor that assume it would be a better world for them with the Church back in control. The Church messed up royally in the past. It was so bad that the entire religion had to change just to survive. I will apologize, because I am falling prey to Godwin's Law, but there are groups of neo nazis who think it was great back when Hitler was in power. They think they are bringing about a better world. So if they use some kind of summoning spell (like tons of horror and fantasy movies use as plot) that will sacrifice a ton of lives to power it to bring back the great big baddie, then it isn't too bad because they are doing it for what they see is the greater good and would cause a better world? The whole knights radiant dealie is journey before destination. Wiping out countless innocent people, to get any result, even if it is a good one, isn't worth the good result. 

Edited August 10, 2016 by Pathfinder

[goody153]

18 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

But it is the Sons of Honor that assume it would be a better world for them with the Church back in control. The Church messed up royally in the past. It was so bad that the entire religion had to change just to survive. I will apologize, because I am falling prey to Godwin's Law, but there are groups of neo nazis who think it was great back when Hitler was in power. They think they are bringing about a better world. So if they use some kind of summoning spell (like tons of horror and fantasy movies use as plot) that will sacrifice a ton of lives to power it to bring back the great big baddie, then it isn't too bad because they are doing it for what they see is the greater good?

But they don't believe that the church under control is awful or that they think they could do a better job at it and make sure the past doesn't get repeated AGAIN that doesn't mean they aren't using awful means but THEY DO BELIEVE THEY ARE DOING THE RIGHT THING even if it is not really true(we know it cause we are the reader and we get a really broad perspective on what they are doing). 

AGAIN you seem to think that i agree with what they are doing is right even though i already said multiple times that i don't think what they are doing is right. I'm just merely saying that Amaram himself believes he is doing the world a "favor" so ultimately his intentions are "good" but that doesn't mean it is right. It's literally the same thing with anybody who thinks they are doing somebody/anybody a favor, they have good intentions but it doesn't necessarily mean that whatever they are trying to accomplish would actually help at all.

Sadeas is literally intentionally evil like he knows his harming people and he knows he's not doing it for them but for themselves. The way i see it Sadeas is the more awful. Of course both are awful it's just that Amaram is the lesser evil in my perspective since he thinks he's doing it for "good" unlike Sadeas.

AGAIN they are both evil but one justifies his actions and truly believes he's doing it to help and the other is really doing it for himself. I see the later as more evil since he really isn't trying to help anybody.

Edited August 10, 2016 by goody153

[Pathfinder]

22 minutes ago, goody153 said:

But they don't believe that the church under control is awful or that they think they could do a better job at it and make sure the past doesn't get repeated AGAIN that doesn't mean they aren't using awful means but THEY DO BELIEVE THEY ARE DOING THE RIGHT THING even if it is not really true(we know it cause we are the reader and we get a really broad perspective on what they are doing). 

AGAIN you seem to think that i agree with what they are doing is right even though i already said multiple times that i don't think what they are doing is right. I'm just merely saying that Amaram himself believes he is doing the world a "favor" so ultimately his intentions are "good" but that doesn't mean it is right. It's literally the same thing with anybody who thinks they are doing somebody/anybody a favor, they have good intentions but it doesn't necessarily mean that whatever they are trying to accomplish would actually help at all.

Sadeas is literally intentionally evil like he knows his harming people and he knows he's not doing it for them but for themselves. The way i see it Sadeas is the more awful. Of course both are awful it's just that Amaram is the lesser evil in my perspective since he thinks he's doing it for "good" unlike Sadeas.

AGAIN they are both evil but one justifies his actions and truly believes he's doing it to help and the other is really doing it for himself. I see the later as more evil since he really isn't trying to help anybody.

My point is just because one can justify his goals in his own mind, does not make the actions he is taking to bring about said goal a lesser evil nor make him a lesser bad person. I am not saying you think what he is doing is ok. What I am saying is just because he thinks what he is doing is for an ultimate good, does not necessarily make that ultimate good actually good for everyone else, nor does it make the actions taken to get there, lesser than someone who openly wants something for themselves, especially when the scope of the fallout is exponentially numerically more. As you said, you are focusing on intention, I am focusing on action

Edited August 10, 2016 by Pathfinder

[goody153]

Quote

What I am saying is just because he thinks what he is doing is for an ultimate good, does not necessarily make that ultimate good actually good for everyone else, nor does it make the actions taken to get there, 

that is what i said but i still see it Amaram the lesser evil due to intentions alone due to intentions alone.  I'm not saying that whatever "for the purpose of greater good" action Amaram is doing is actually gonna help but i'm just saying he's aiming for something good which makes him the lesser cremling between the two even though whatever he's trying to accomplish is undoubtedly worthless and just gonna sacrifice lives.

Of course he's still an awful person. Araman is still a cremling i just see him as lesser than Sadeas due to intentions.

Quote

As you said, you are focusing on intention, I am focusing on action

I think we meaning the same things, except for the "Amaram being the lesser cremling part".

[Argel]

I'm with Pathfinder that the end results ultimately matter. Hitler is an obvious example of someone taking his beliefs way too far.  And no, Godwin's Law does not apply given this is a valid comparison.

However, we have yet to see even hints of proof that the Sons of Honor have been effective enough to offset Sadeas's misdeeds, if indeed they have had any meaningful effect. Maybe we'll learn more in SA3. But based on the evidence we currently have, it has to go to Sadeas. 

[CaptainRyan]

If the question is which of them is, personally and as an individual, a more terrible person then I think the obvious answer is Sadeas.

If the question is who's actions could lead to worse outcomes for every human on the planet then I think the obvious answer is Amaram.

Sadeas is the more terrible individual, in my opinion, because I would rather my child (hypothetical child as I do not have any children) be Amaram as at least they are committed to doing what they think is right no matter the cost. Sadeas is only committed to himself. That being said, if I had to choose which to inflict upon a group of people I would probably pick Sadeas because, at the end of the day, he is probably not going to summon the Eldritch God of Hatred.

[I_am_NOT_fire]

 

15 hours ago, goody153 said:

He didn't really know that the key might just be helping the actual radiants, i mean who actually knows aside from Dalinar what should be done. At least he's doing it for the greater good compared to Sadeas who's practically pure greed reasons.

Sadeas is just a natural progression of the Alethi elite, Dalinar probably did things just as bad as his betrayal in his own youth.

[Argel]

6 hours ago, CaptainRyan said:

If the question is who's actions could lead to worse outcomes for every human on the planet then I think the obvious answer is Amaram.

But it's not just a question of intent. If Amaram is ineffective, then it's irrelevant. And Sadeas's actions could have brought more harm to Roshar (taking Dalinar and Adolin out) than anything Amaram will ever do. We're going to have to RAFO to see if there is anything teeth to the SoH.

[CaptainRyan]

1 minute ago, Argel said:

But it's not just a question of intent. If Amaram is ineffective, then it's irrelevant. And Sadeas's actions could have brought more harm to Roshar (taking Dalinar and Adolin out) than anything Amaram will ever do. We're going to have to RAFO to see if there is anything teeth to the SoH.

That is a good point; assuming Dalinar and Adolin are irreplaceable assets in the fight against the Desolation then yeah, Sadeas' betrayal could have actually cost Roshar more than Amaram's scheming.

[Shadow Guardian]

At the moment, I have to vote that Amaram is the bigger cremling, purely because Sadeas is at least honest about being the traitorous, selfish bastard that he is. Amaram goes to great lengths to hide what he is, so he gets my vote at the moment. This is, of course, subject to change depending on the day, because. 

[Toaster Retribution]

To jump into the discussion, one reason to why Amaram is better than Saddy is that he actually shows regret for the things he is doing. He speaks of the terrible costs in his letter and he speaks of them to Sadeas. Sadeas himself never feels bad. 

And yes, Sadeas might be honest with himself. So? He knows how bad he is, and yet he continues, and states "Im honest" as if that would redeem him. He never shows regret, despite everything he does.

Amaram at least has regret, and wishes that he didn't need to do what he is doing. He knows his actions are bad, and he gives more care about it than Sadeas ever has. 

Both of them have big faults, but in the end, Amaram is good enough to care. Sadeas is honest, but it's just an empty excuse.

[Argel]

Good point @Chull #445. Kaladin is still alive because of the conscience Amaram is (barely) holding onto. If Sadeas had been there instead I think we can all agree Kaladin would be dead.

[Pathfinder]

Yes, Amaram is so sorry for what he did to Kaladin that he would not admit it when confronted, and would have killed Dalinar to cover it up, had Dalinar not been quicker on the draw. You can say you are sorry for doing something all you want, but if you continue to do the thing, and do all you can to cover it up, kind of negates the sorry. How can we be sure he is even genuinely sorrowful, or is that an act as well?

[Toaster Retribution]

3 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

Yes, Amaram is so sorry for what he did to Kaladin that he would not admit it when confronted, and would have killed Dalinar to cover it up, had Dalinar not been quicker on the draw. You can say you are sorry for doing something all you want, but if you continue to do the thing, and do all you can to cover it up, kind of negates the sorry. How can we be sure he is even genuinely sorrowful, or is that an act as well?

I agree. But Sadeas does not feel remorse AT ALL. At least Amaram does. He wishes that he did not need to do what he is doing in order to complete his goal. Sadeas never does. That should count for something. 

[CaptainRyan]

3 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

Yes, Amaram is so sorry for what he did to Kaladin that he would not admit it when confronted, and would have killed Dalinar to cover it up, had Dalinar not been quicker on the draw.

I actually read that scene a bit differently; I assumed Amaram was acting defensively, in that, he thought he was going to be arrested or something. I do not think Amaram was honestly about to strike down Dalinar in front of thousands of witnesses.

[Toaster Retribution]

That would be bad for his rep.

[Pathfinder]

4 minutes ago, CaptainRyan said:

I actually read that scene a bit differently; I assumed Amaram was acting defensively, in that, he thought he was going to be arrested or something. I do not think Amaram was honestly about to strike down Dalinar in front of thousands of witnesses.

Amaram did not know Dalinar was summoning his sword. In fact as far as Amaram knew, Dalinar didn't have a sword at all, because he sent people to steal it. He attempted to strike an unarmed person, and was only stopped because Dalinar had out thought him, and stole the sword back. I will post this, and then pull up the scene, the edit my post to reflect the quote. 

Amaram paled and stepped back, hand going to his side. 

"I told my servant," Dalinar said calmly, "to go drinking with your personal guard - he knew many of them - and talk of a treasure that the madman said had been hidden for years outside the warcamp. By my order, he then placed the madman's Shardblade in a nearby cavern. After that. we waited."

He's summoning his Blade, Kaladin thought, looking at Amaram's hand. Kaladin reached for his side knife, but Dalinar was already raising his own hand. White mist coalesced in Dalinar's fingers, and a Shardblade appeared, tip to Amaram's throat. Wider than most, it was almost cleaverlike in appearance. A Blade formed in Amaram's hand a second later - a second too late. His eyes went wide as he stared at the silvery Blade held to his throat. Dalinar had a Shardblade.

"I thought," Dalinar said "that if you had been willing to murder for one Blade, you would certainly be willing to lie for a second. And so, after I knew you'd sneaked in to see the madman on your own, I asked you to investigate his claims for me. I gave your conscience plenty of time to come clean, out of respect for our friendship. When you told me you'd found nothing - but in fact you had actually recovered the Shardblade - I knew the truth."

"How?" Amaram hissed, looking at the Blade Dalinar held "How did you get it back? I removed it from the cave. My men had it safe!"

 

 

So as I said, Amaram was going to draw a shardblade on an unarmed man. 

Edited August 11, 2016 by Pathfinder

[CaptainRyan]

4 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

He attempted to strike an unarmed person

I just re-read the scene (hooray for kindle app on my phone haha) and I still do not think Amaram was going after Dalinar. Here are the parts I think are important:

Page 930 (an so on)

Quote

Amaram turned, posture suddenly more alert - like that of a man preparing for a fight.

Quote

[Dalinar begins explaining how he tricked Amaram]

Amaram paled and stepped back, hand going to his side.

[Dalinar keeps talking]

He's summoning his Blade, Kaladin thought, looking at Amaram's hand.

[Dalinar summons his Blade]

A Blade formed in Amaram's hand a second later - a second too late.

Quote

Amaram raised his chin, as if thrusting his neck towards the point of the Shardblade.

So, Amaram becomes more alert, as if preparing for a fight and begins summoning his Blade. No allusion, even from suspicious Kaladin's point of view, is made that Amaram is going to attack Dalinar. I can see why people might think Amaram was going to attack Dalinar but, given the word choices and the context/situation, I cannot think of a single reason why Amaram would attack a Highprince in broad daylight in front of 3-4 armies and their respective Shardbearers. My interpretation is that Amaram was prepared to resist arrest.

[Pathfinder]

3 minutes ago, CaptainRyan said:

I just re-read the scene (hooray for kindle app on my phone haha) and I still do not think Amaram was going after Dalinar. Here are the parts I think are important:

Page 930 (an so on)

So, Amaram becomes more alert, as if preparing for a fight and begins summoning his Blade. No allusion, even from suspicious Kaladin's point of view, is made that Amaram is going to attack Dalinar. I can see why people might think Amaram was going to attack Dalinar but, given the word choices and the context/situation, I cannot think of a single reason why Amaram would attack a Highprince in broad daylight in front of 3-4 armies and their respective Shardbearers. My interpretation is that Amaram was prepared to resist arrest.

I quoted the rest of the scene and bolded certain parts. Please check them out. Amaram was preparing for a fight because he knew he was found out, so his first response is to go for an unstoppable weapon. Not defend himself further verbally. Not try to rationalize with Dalinar. Not ask for forgiveness. He went right for a weapon. he is so sorrowful for what he has done, when he had a chance to apologize and come clean, as per Dalinar, he persisted and was counting on Dalinar being unarmed. 

[CaptainRyan]

1 minute ago, Pathfinder said:

Amaram was preparing for a fight because he knew he was found out

Agree.

1 minute ago, Pathfinder said:

his first response is to go for an unstoppable weapon. Not defend himself further verbally. Not try to rationalize with Dalinar. Not ask for forgiveness. He went right for a weapon

Agree.

2 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

he is so sorrowful for what he has done, when he had a chance to apologize and come clean, as per Dalinar, he persisted

If I understand what you are saying then I slightly disagree here. Dalinar is not offering Amaram a chance to come clean here but, rather, previously Dalinar waited to give Amaram time to admit to Dalinar that Amaram had stolen the Blade from the cave and lied about it. At this point in the game Dalinar is past allowing Amaram to come clean.

 

4 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

was counting on Dalinar being unarmed

Agree but not because I think Amaram was trying to kill Dalinar but because Amaram would use his superior weapon and armor status to resist being arrested and taken to trial.

 

It seems like we, basically, agree on everything that is occurring but not quite on why it was occurring. Again, the big factor for me is that there is literally nothing to be gained, and everything to be lost, by blatantly attacking Dalinar. Sadeas is Amaram's liege lord and would be more than willing to protect Amaram from Dalinar as long as Amaram can get to Sadeas. If Amaram gets arrested now then it becomes a lot harder for him. Also, Amaram is still safe from Kaladin's accusations in a legal sense because Dalinar only proved that Amaram would lie about a Shardblade he found in a cave which definitely does not translate into therefore he would murder his own troops to get a set. So, at the expense of beating this poor, dead horse I just do not see any reason for Amaram to attack/kill Dalinar and I see every reason for Amaram to insure that he can get out of here and back to somewhere more defensible in both the physical and the legal sense. 

[Argel]

19 minutes ago, CaptainRyan said:

but because Amaram would use his superior weapon and armor status to resist being arrested and taken to trial.

That's how I read it too. I also agree that Amaram's chance to come clean was the test and he failed that. Pretty clear from the text in the book.

Edited August 11, 2016 by Argel
Updated quote to be less confusing