Assassin in Burgundy

Who is the bigger cremling?

The bigger cremling   52 members have voted

  1. 1. Who is worse, Sadeas or Amaram

    • Torol Sadeas
      30
    • Meridas Amaram
      22

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62 posts in this topic

Hello fellow Sharders,

One question has recently plagued my mind- Who is worse, Sadeas or Amaram? Amaram is bad because he betrayed someone who we actually know and care about, whereas Sadeas betrayed just a bunch of soldiers, (sorry if that sounded really callous).

So, who is worse? Please vote.

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To me Amaram is worst.

He is (also for his own society) an Hypocritical.

Sadeas is just the outcome of Vorin Society and power.

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Amaram truly believes he did the right thing.

Sadeas knows what he's doing is wrong and is only for his own benefit, even in the face of the end of the world. I'd say he's the bigger cremling no matter what reason he has for being that way.

jW

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Well it is difficult. Do we talk about actual actions or potential consequences? Sadeas leaving a battle, in other words just doing nothing, resulted in a many men's lives lost. Amaram is consciously attempting to restart the desolations and bring back the voidbringers which is an extinction level event. Sooooo.......

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It's not clear if Amaram or the Sons of Honor have had any major impact on bringing the desolations back. That is, it seems like it was going to happen right about now anyway. So based on that, I would say Sadeas has been considerably more effective. If proto-KR Kal had not been there and decided to intervene, Sadeas would have been successful, and how's he supposed to factor that into the plans?

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I have to go with Sadeas because he's got a track record of being a cremling. He's a repeat offender, and some of his schemes have come close to killing entire armies. He treats life as nothing, only pawns in his game. You also get to see the conditions of his army, and they're even worse than Amaram's.

Going to Amaram, I'm not going to tell you he's a nice dude. He's pretty bad. But Amaram's biggest mistake, the one that people are going to hold over him, came in a moment of greed. Comparing Amaram to Sadeas is like comparing a killer motivated by passion to a hearless serial killer: one is much more likely to do it again.

I also have to throw in Roshone. While nowhere near Sadeas' level, his exploitation of the weak (and a POV character) puts him up there with Amaram for me.

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22 minutes ago, Argel said:

It's not clear if Amaram or the Sons of Honor have had any major impact on bringing the desolations back. That is, it seems like it was going to happen right about now anyway. So based on that, I would say Sadeas has been considerably more effective. If proto-KR Kal had not been there and decided to intervene, Sadeas would have been successful, and how's he supposed to factor that into the plans?

That is why I said actual action vs potential consequences. As far as we know since the desolation is coming, it could have been in a large part due to their actions. Right now we just don't know what brought on the latest one. What we do know is Amaram and the Sons of Honor want the desolation to happen so the heralds return, and would legitimize their take on their religion, returning it to power. So while Sadeas wants his own little corner of the world for power for powers sake, Amaram is pretty much wanting the apocalypse to occur so he can say "i told you so" lol. 

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I would say that depends on your definition of 'worse cremling'.

If it's a question of 'Who is the more depraved character?' I'd vote Sadeas anytime. Although I don't entirely believe Amaram's explanation that he took the Shards only for the greater good, I think there's at least a little truth in it. And I agree with @Jondesu: he is working for a goal he believes in, which makes him in a way selfless. Sadeas just watches out for the fulfillment of his own desires and literally doesn't care how many corpses he leaves by the roadside. And if he had been in Amaram's place, he would certainly have killed Kaladin on the spot instead of making him a slave.  Cynincal as that sounds, that did show a touch of mercy.

In terms of who's more dangerous (leaving aside the fact that Sadeas has lately ceased to be a danger at all) I tend towards Amaram. A fanatic who works toward some 'higher goal' and who thinks a worthy end justifies any means (as Amaram clearly does) can do much more damage I think then a selfish pig. He may not have done much harm so far on a global scale, as, like @Argelsays, the desolation would have come anyway. But he may do a lot in the future. He thinks on a global scale and might set things in motion that Sadeas with his small ambition of finding excitement and satisfaction in winning battles wouldn't dream of.

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The reason I chose Amaram is because Sadeas is so much more upfront about his actions. As @Erklitt said, Sadeas would have killed Kaladin without a second thought, but everyone in the army knows that about him. Amaram is worshipped by his men. 

Think about what it actually took for him to cover up how he got his Shards. Dalinar says there were witnesses who saw him kill the Shardbearer months after Kaladin was made a slave. That means he gave the Shards to someone else simply so he could kill them and look good. No one realizes this, even Kaladin and Dalinar who know the truth. Kaladin's men could not have been the only people he killed to cover it up. People talk about this one incident defining him, but there could be hundreds of other incidents like it, and he is so good at covering them up that no one knows. 

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25 minutes ago, thegatorgirl00 said:

The reason I chose Amaram is because Sadeas is so much more upfront about his actions. As @Erklitt said, Sadeas would have killed Kaladin without a second thought, but everyone in the army knows that about him. Amaram is worshipped by his men. 

Think about what it actually took for him to cover up how he got his Shards. Dalinar says there were witnesses who saw him kill the Shardbearer months after Kaladin was made a slave. That means he gave the Shards to someone else simply so he could kill them and look good. No one realizes this, even Kaladin and Dalinar who know the truth. Kaladin's men could not have been the only people he killed to cover it up. People talk about this one incident defining him, but there could be hundreds of other incidents like it, and he is so good at covering them up that no one knows. 

That's an interesting conclusion. I just checked back on the text:

Quote

"... Seventeen witnesses told me that Amaram won his Shardblade only four months ago, long after your ledger says you were made a slave. ... " (WoR Ch. 58 'Never Again' p. 677 kindle edition - it continues, but adds nothing relevant)

As I understand this, the witnesses just 'witnessed' to the time when Amaram began to show his blade openly, which makes me believe he had just hidden it before. You might be right of course, but I think it unlikely, for the very reason you state: if those witnesses had told Dalinar they saw how Amaram won his blade, Dalinar would have realized this.

Edited by Erklitt
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2 hours ago, Erklitt said:

In terms of who's more dangerous (leaving aside the fact that Sadeas has lately ceased to be a danger at all)

Is it WW that has the theory about problems with the afterlife? Maybe Sadeas still has an opportunity left to wreak havoc. Maybe he will be Odium's champion....

 

Edit: Major nitpick here: Being selfish to the level Sadeas is is arguably a form of fanaticism. Look at our world and how much strife greed can cause. Or the consolidation of wealth and the pressure on the middle-class. One can argue there is an economic war going on, but it's much more subtle. I might take a religious fantatic over one using a widespread economic ideology to achieve his goals in a subtler way.

If Amaram did have a huge influence, then I might rate him higher, but the evidence is not there. There's also the question of whether "now" is better than "later".

Wheel of Time last couple of books/ending spoiler

Spoiler

Like how Rand wanted to open the bore to clear it out so they could properly seal the Dark One before it became even harder to do.

With the heralds seemingly going insane, I have a hard time imagining that Roshar would be in batter shape if the desolation took even longer to come. If the Sons of Honor did help, Odium might be cursing them. 

Edited by Argel
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40 minutes ago, Argel said:

With the heralds seemingly going insane, I have a hard time imagining that Roshar would be in batter shape if the desolation took even longer to come. If the Sons of Honor did help, Odium might be cursing them. 

But Kaladin, Shallan, Dalinar, Renarin, Jasnah, and Lift would have all been further along in their oaths before the everstorm came had it taken longer for the desolation to come. The knights radiant could have been re-founded in earnest by that point. Urithiru could have been discovered and the oath gates activated prior to it, allowing for a very similar occurrence as in mistborn. So if the Sons of Honor got the desolation to happen sooner, or happen at all, then they are responsible for  a lot of deaths. 

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The sons of honour are all religious extremist idiots, so far as I've seen. They are literally the most stupid secret organisation in the series so far. I almost want them to have some really good reasons behind their actions, but it's probably not the case. 

Rant over, Amaram is the superior cremling.

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I voted Amaram, I hate what he did to Kaladin. But it was a tough decision, cause I hate how Sadeas betrayed Dalinar and Adolin.

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I voted Amaram because fanatics seem to always do the most horrible things and believe what they are doing is for "the greater good".

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Sadeas is worse, by a mile.  I'm surprised people can even make the comparison.  The guy who betrays thousands to their deaths is far worse than the one who betrays...five?  I forget the exact number, but there's orders of magnitude difference here.

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I am biased, since I actually like Amaram. But here:

I have seen threads like this before. One of them pointed out that it seems like the Sons of Honor's endgame is power for the church. If that is the whole deal, then Amaram is pretty bad. But we dont know everything yet. What we do know is that Amaram does feel bad about some things he is doing (Kaladin, people dying), something Sadeas doesn't. 

There could be a higher purpose to Amaram. As pointed out, Sadeas does everything for himself, and feels no remorse. He is also a bully, with his taunting of Adolin. I go Sadeas.

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16 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

But Kaladin, Shallan, Dalinar, Renarin, Jasnah, and Lift would have all been further along in their oaths before the everstorm came had it taken longer for the desolation to come.

Sorry, I was thinking long term, such as if the next desolation would have been in another 500 years if the Sons of Honor had not interfered. If they sped it up by a short amount they probably helped Odium, though that could have still thrown plans into disarray, so its hard to say (e.g. maybe more KRs would supposed to be assassinated before the next desolation hit).

 

14 hours ago, I_am_NOT_fire said:

The sons of honour are all religious extremist idiots, so far as I've seen. They are literally the most stupid secret organisation in the series so far. I almost want them to have some really good reasons behind their actions, but it's probably not the case.

They definitely appear to be the most inept so far.

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28 minutes ago, Argel said:

Sorry, I was thinking long term, such as if the next desolation would have been in another 500 years if the Sons of Honor had not interfered. If they sped it up by a short amount they probably helped Odium, though that could have still thrown plans into disarray, so its hard to say (e.g. maybe more KRs would supposed to be assassinated before the next desolation hit).

 

They definitely appear to be the most inept so far.

Well here is my line of thinking at least. Galivar was possibly, or dare I say likely a Son of Honor. His actions in attempting to bring back the parshendi "gods" with the rest of the sons of honor, is what (at least appears at this time), resulted in his assassination. This assassination lead to the vengeance pact. The pursuit of the vengeance pact lead to the research of the old forms, which lead to stormform, which lead to calling the everstorm and returning the voidbringers. Had Galivar and the sons of honor not done so, Odium would have needed another way to "get things moving" as it were. Now the question is, were the spren starting to bond radiants because they knew the next desolation was coming, or because they felt it was time to give humanity another chance? If it is the former, then we would have the same time line of bonding, but just different people regarding the bonds. Maybe Galivar making a unified Alethkar would have made for a stronger nation and unified army to fight the voidbringers and aid the knights radiant when they come. If it is the latter, then Galivar might have ended up even bonding a spren, and the knights radiant be re-founded long before the voidbringers return. Without that catalyst, a lot could have been different in my opinion. Amaram is a high rank within that organization and was actively helping them achieve that goal. So personally I see it as every member of the sons of honor are responsible for every single life lost at the hands of the desolations. That's why I lean towards Amaram. Sadeas is a horrible person, true, but he is simple in that horribleness. Amaram's ambitions and scope are much much much larger. How did Jack Sparrow put it? "A dishonest man you can always trust to be dishonest. Honestly, it's the honest ones you have to watch out for, you never can predict if they're going to do something incredibly stupid." Actively trying to bring about Armageddon? That sounds pretty stupid to me lol. 

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3 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

Now the question is, were the spren starting to bond radiants because they knew the next desolation was coming, or because they felt it was time to give humanity another chance?

We know 100% for sure that Jasnah and Shallan were already proto-KRs before the assassination occurred. That's also interesting given they represent the two orders that can Elsecall, which suggests they may be the ones to start bonding first. 

We will probably have to RAFO SA3 to find out more.

Do we know if the Sons of Honor existed back when Gavilar was assassinated? It seems like a lot of stuff happened as a result of that (e.g. The Diagram).

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Though Amaram is a storming scum, his intentions are still for the greater good apparently. Sadeas is just a greedy for power person who would willingly split the kingdom and make people suffer just so he gets in position of power.

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4 hours ago, Argel said:

 

We know 100% for sure that Jasnah and Shallan were already proto-KRs before the assassination occurred. That's also interesting given they represent the two orders that can Elsecall, which suggests they may be the ones to start bonding first. 

I'm assuming that you meant soulcast, but I think I see your reasoning. They might've been closer to the cognitive realm because their abilities relate directly to it. Also the other few radiants that have been bonded, Lift and Rysn, (this is making the assumption that Rysn is a Willshaper) are pretty closely connected to the cognitive realm, Lift because she can touch spren and Rysn because she can Elsecall. 

 

4 hours ago, Argel said:

Do we know if the Sons of Honor existed back when Gavilar was assassinated? It seems like a lot of stuff happened as a result of that (e.g. The Diagram).

Yes, they did and Gavilar was one of them. In Jasnah's POV at the beginning of WoR she catches them scheming in the corridor. It's pretty safe to say that it's pre Gavilar's death.

 

Edited by I_am_NOT_fire
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3 hours ago, goody153 said:

Though Amaram is a storming scum, his intentions are still for the greater good apparently. Sadeas is just a greedy for power person who would willingly split the kingdom and make people suffer just so he gets in position of power.

Yes, but Amaram is stupid, and he didn't need the shardblade.

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2 hours ago, I_am_NOT_fire said:

Yes, they did and Gavilar was one of them. In Jasnah's POV at the beginning of WoR she catches them scheming in the corridor. It's pretty safe to say that it's pre Gavilar's death.

True, but that doesn't mean the SoH had been formed yet. Mr. T was involved back then too, but did his own thing. 

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9 hours ago, I_am_NOT_fire said:

Yes, but Amaram is stupid, and he didn't need the shardblade.

He didn't really know that the key might just be helping the actual radiants, i mean who actually knows aside from Dalinar what should be done. At least he's doing it for the greater good compared to Sadeas who's practically pure greed reasons.

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