Side Effect of Magic

[Noel]

Alright, I just had a crazy thought about another purpose of magic (or at least a side effect) in the Cosmere.  I was just reading a transcript by Blightsong while at OdysseyCon earlier this year.  At one point, Blightsong asks Brandon if magic occurs on Sel because there was a stronger cognative presence in certain areas than others.  Between that and Brandon's answer, that threw me off into a tangent about the nature of the storms that renews Stormlight across Roshar.  On Roshar, flora especially has evolved to survive the hurricane force power of the storms; the farther away from the initial landfall, the less mutated the flora has become.  In Shen, the grass is just grass like we know it instead of the flora capable of hiding whenever anything brushes against it.

I believe that magic in the Cosmere acts as a catalyst for life and diversity.  It is a method through which evolution perpetuates survival on not only Roshar, but on every planet in the Cosmere.  On First of the Sun, an invested parasite exists that we know promotes survival traits in various species of birds.  It is also likely there is another parasite (if not the same one) that allows other creatures to hunt by sensing thought patterns.  Nalthis exhibits (to our knowledge) a single jungle environment which has culminated in the Tears of Edgli, a plant capable of producing superior dyes in a world where magic uses the pigmentation of color as part of what powers it.

This effect of magic seems to be further exemplified in worlds where there are either no Shards or worlds where shards have been shattered.  In such places, the Shardpools that exist seem to act as points where life and change are kicked into overdrive.  Again, on First of the Sun, it is only at Patji's Eye that the magical parasite exists.  On Elantris, Devotion's Shardpool acts as a focal point around which the Shaod effects those tied into the region (those with Arelon blood).  On Roshar, the Shardpool in the Horneater Peaks allows only those with Horneater blood to enter and live.  It seems likely that Rock's ability to see spren and whatever else he can do is associated with that Shardpool.  As spren play a strong role in the magic of Roshar, it is probable that the abilities Rock possesses will aid in the survival of the Horneater people and all of Roshar because of an evolution of Rock's people we haven't seen yet.

So there it is - my crazy, wild idea about a side effect of magic in the Cosmere.  Feel free to rip it apart now!  

[Darkness Ascendant]

I wouldn't call this a side-effect of Magic. Why? Because nature ais always adapting and evolving. Nature always works around things. If we had highstorms here, then no doubt our whole way of life would be different. Not because of "magic" but because of nature itself. Animals and plants adapt to their environments. Shin grass is similar to our grass because the climate there is similar to ours. There are species of plants and animals that can live in one area but would die off in another environment. 

[Noel]

I agree the basic foundation of the evolution of the local ecology is a natural one, so maybe calling this a side effect isn't the right term.

What I am trying to show is that I believe that the magic of the Cosmere actually hastens that evolution and creates evolutionary paths that are beyond what would occur naturally.  I could see grass evolving naturally to possess the same qualities as the flora in the eastern region of Roshar's supercontinent if given enough time.  From what I understand of the nature of the Highstorms, however, that couldn't occur without outside interference.  The Highstorms occur at least once a week from what I gather, making normal evolution unlikely.  Unlike Scadrial, where we have in-story evidence of a different ecology once existing, I don't remember there being any such clues in the Stormlight Archives.  That would infer the ecology has been like that through the Desolations, just as the Highstorms have continued to occur over that same timeframe.

Shards have the ability to choose the manner in which magic is manifested (Alomancy, Aon Dor, and Awakening to name three).  I believe they can choose more than just that, determining exactly how magic will effect the world they have chosen to inhabit.  When a Shard is not present, or when only fragments remain, I believe the magic of the cosmere still works as an add-on to nature instead of simply being a part of it.  It has the feel of being more like a macro or script that alters/shapes how nature plays out.  Brandon has said he likes to create magic that follows observable, scientific rules, which is why the magic of the Cosmere meshes so well with the ecology of its worlds.  But the things that happen feel more like it works in conjunction with nature instead of merely being a part of it.

So, yeah, calling this a side affect was a poor choice of words on my part.  Perhaps I should have said something like 'effects of magic on the natural laws of Cosmere worlds.'

[king of nowhere]

it is possible that it hastens evolution, since normally those processes take millions of years, especially for radical mutations like turning grass into a rockbud (though I can imagine a process going on where a grass that evolved the mutation of growing carbonate crystals around its roots could survive highstorms better than others, and from there it went on). But we don't really know, since we don't know the whole evolutionary history of roshar. what was there before the shattering of adonalsium? how was that changed by investiture?

Overall, I would say that investiture has a negligible effect on life. See, we have millions of life forms, and yet only a handful of them use investiture. The tears of edgli on nalthis, the parasites on first of the sun. If using investiture organisms a definite advantage, then more would adapt to use it; or the single organism that first started to use it would spread and differentiate and colonize all the ecosystems.

Though it's possible that investiture only entered into the equation a few tens of thousands of years prior, which would be too short a time too see those kind of evolutionary effect. Unless evolution was hastened by investiture, but that's clearly not the case here; at least it's not hastened in that direction.

So, I'm going to say this theory is not much likely.

[CaptainRyan]

10 hours ago, Darkness Ascendant said:

Shin grass is similar to our grass because the climate there is similar to ours.

Haven't there been hints that Shinovar is different perhaps because Honor or Cultivation made it in the image of where they came from (possibly Yolen)? I always got the impression that Shinovar was an anomaly on Roshar and not a naturally occurring environment.

[Oversleep]

11 hours ago, Noel said:

Shards have the ability to choose the manner in which magic is manifested (Alomancy, Aon Dor, and Awakening to name three).  I believe they can choose more than just that, determining exactly how magic will effect the world they have chosen to inhabit.

Shards have very little control over the magic. What we call magic is a natural outgrowth of the interaction between the planet and the Shards that Invested in it.
 They don't 'design' the magic systems or anything. Even their influence on that is limited.

14 hours ago, Noel said:

On Roshar, the Shardpool in the Horneater Peaks allows only those with Horneater blood to enter and live.  It seems likely that Rock's ability to see spren and whatever else he can do is associated with that Shardpool.

IIRC Horneaters are result of Listener-human in...inter?... crossbreeding?... well, of mixing their bloodlines. Horneaters (and Herdaz and some other) in that regard are hybrids. That would make them able to see spren.

[Argel]

3 hours ago, Oversleep said:

They don't 'design' the magic systems or anything. Even their influence on that is limited.

Endowment seems to have more influence. And Ruin and Preservation created Scadrial. We don't even know where Feruchemy came from. And Leras created Lerasium, which turns someone into an Allomancer. It does seem like the more invested they are, the less control they have, but I don't think it's as clear cut as you make it out to be. 

[Oversleep]

26 minutes ago, Argel said:

Endowment seems to have more influence.

Do you mean Edgli making Splinters and Returning people? That's hardly influencing Awakening.

27 minutes ago, Argel said:

And Ruin and Preservation created Scadrial.

I'm not sure whether there were some unclear WoBs on that or not. Anyway, IIRC Brandon said that this fact would mean some funny effects. Still, I don't see how is that influencing how the magic works. Once they made the planet the magic would show up, I think.

28 minutes ago, Argel said:

We don't even know where Feruchemy came from.

Sure we do. Brandon even talks about how such 'balance magic' would show up in other places with multiple Shards.

29 minutes ago, Argel said:

And Leras created Lerasium, which turns someone into an Allomancer.

About that... Lerasium (and atium) just condense near the Sharpools. They were not specifically created by the Shards. And even if they were, godmetals are already kind of outside of the magic system.

[Yata]

6 hours ago, Oversleep said:

I'm not sure whether there were some unclear WoBs on that or not. Anyway, IIRC Brandon said that this fact would mean some funny effects. Still, I don't see how is that influencing how the magic works. Once they made the planet the magic would show up, I think.

I agree with this, in the end I always theorized that Leras designed with precision the Metallic Arts that would spawn from the Interaction between them and the newborn Scadrial.

6 hours ago, Oversleep said:

Sure we do. Brandon even talks about how such 'balance magic' would show up in other places with multiple Shards.

Yes but this isn't an answer about Feruchemy's Origin... It just the theoretical reason for its esistence. It's like to exaplain the Allomancy's Origin with just "well there is Preservation on the Planet". We know the Feruchemy at beginning came from Preservation (via WoB) but we don't know how actually happen.

6 hours ago, Oversleep said:

About that... Lerasium (and atium) just condense near the Sharpools. They were not specifically created by the Shards. And even if they were, godmetals are already kind of outside of the magic system.

Ok this is really wrong. Godmetals didn't naturally condensate near Shardpool. They probably don't naturally condensate at all, In the books we saw how Atium began to exist just for a Shard's golpe.....Preservation cutted a piece of Ruin, sealed it in a "vault" and created an Indipendent Investiture-Cycle with the Pits. It was a deliberate design.

In the same way, the Lerasium doesn't spawn near the Well. Rashek to obtain the Lerasium's beads have to go somewhere (possible multiple places) to retrive them and take the beads to the Well (We have a quite recent WoB about this). Maybe He discovered the Lerasium's location while He held the Power of the Well, but in the end the Lerasium was somewhere else. Probably Preservation generated X Beads of Lerasium (knowing him, probably 16) and putted them in strategic places for his own Agenda.

PS: It to notice that if Preservation made 16 Beads of Lerasium, only 11 of them are actually be used.There is the possibility for other Lerasium on Scadrial (of course if the Terrismen didn't gain the Feruchemy burning Lerasium)

[Argel]

Plus, the ability to make someone a powerful magic user -- that counts as affecting the magic system to me. Maybe not directly, but how would the Era1 Mistborn books played out without Elend as a powerful Mistborn?? And if they did create the magic system and it's working as intended, then no need to interfere too much. And on Sel the shards have been splintered by the time we see it and, Honor has been splintered on Roshar. Heck, even in Mistborn, by the time we see it Preservation is in the process of dying and Ruin is imprisoned and partially splintered. And the hemallurgic spikes could be used to control someone, which we saw used to great effect, which goes back to maybe it was working as intended.

How many shards have we seen not heavily invested and/or not splintered/dead/dying? I'm not even sure Harmony counts because presumably Ruin and Preservation were still heavily invested in Scadrial. 

Maybe the Returned are Endownment's way of curbing abuses of Awakening. That would still count as interference to me if that was the case, just not direct. I imagine tweaking a magic system after the fact could come with it's own set of problems, including tainting all past knowledge of said system. If you want advanced use of the system you can't keep tweaking it because eventually it will just be used for the basic, still reliable stuff. 

@Oversleep, your problem is assuming they did not create the magic systems and then using that assumption as proof they cannot interfere when if they did create the magic systems they would have much less reason to interfere. Ditto if the magic systems sprung into existence based on the Intent and/or their personality -- i.e. it would be something they would like.

[CaptainRyan]

Not to mention that Preservation got involved in switching out metals (replacing bendalloy and, erm, chromium? with Atium and Malatium). The Shards definitely have some level of influence when they Invest.

[Pathfinder]

So as usual I have trouble locating WoB in the interview database but I believe Oversleep is referring to a WoB that stated the manifestation of the magic was determined by planet, not by shard. So Scadrial is all about metal. If Odium invested himself into that planet, his magic would involve metals. He would have a god metal. Same with other planets. Yes they decide how invested they want to be. Yes they in some cases decide who even gets to have the power, but one dealing with metals, while another colors, while another gem stones is planet determined, no current shard determined.

[Argel]

That does ring a bell. Maybe that explains why Scadrial's magic systems seem so powerful -- Ruin and Preservation created the planet.

[Landis963]

On Monday, August 01, 2016 at 9:54 PM, Argel said:

That does ring a bell. Maybe that explains why Scadrial's magic systems seem so powerful -- Ruin and Preservation created the planet.

I would caution that dynamism of fight scenes does not directly correlate to magical strength (despite what Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon would have us believe), and Allomancy and Feruchemy are nothing if not dynamic in fight scenes.

[CaptainRyan]

4 minutes ago, Landis963 said:

I would caution that dynamism of fight scenes does not directly correlate to magical strength (despite what Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon would have us believe), and Allomancy and Feruchemy are nothing if not dynamic in fight scenes.

Fullborn. I do not think we have seen a magic system that can produce a single user as overwhelmingly powerful as a Fullborn. I assume that is what people mean when they refer to the "strength" of Scadrial's magic system.

[Oversleep]

34 minutes ago, CaptainRyan said:

Fullborn. I do not think we have seen a magic system that can produce a single user as overwhelmingly powerful as a Fullborn. I assume that is what people mean when they refer to the "strength" of Scadrial's magic system.

Yeah, but Fullborn is kind of a special case - all his power comes from hacking two systems together. This actually comes from the fact that there are two magic systems, one end-positive and one end-negative which share a focus. And we have two different end-variables because Ruin's system is exceptional in being end-negative, so that the we have three magic systems with different variables.

If there was another Shard on Nalthis and there would be a way to multiple Breaths you have by means similar to Compounding, then I guess Nalthis would get pretty broken.

[CaptainRyan]

Just now, Oversleep said:

Yeah, but Fullborn is kind of a special case - all his power comes from hacking two systems together. This actually comes from the fact that there are two magic systems, one end-positive and one end-negative which share a focus. And we have two different end-variables because Ruin's system is exceptional in being end-negative, so that the we have three magic systems with different variables.

If there was another Shard on Nalthis and there would be a way to multiple Breaths you have by means similar to Compounding, then I guess Nalthis would get pretty broken.

Fullborn are not, necessarily, a "hack". It is possible for genetics to handle the making of a Fullborn. As far as I know there is no other two-shard magic system that allows for a naturally occurring monster like a Fullborn; everything else would, of necessity, be a "hack". Granted, we have never actually seen a natural Fullborn but the possibility is there.

Also, once a Fullborn exists or enough hacking is done, you can replicate Fullborns with relative ease. Mash some nicrosil together with some other metals and voila! As many Fullborn as you want. Again, I do not know of any other Sanderson magic system where such a powerful monster can be created and then easily replicated.

[Oversleep]

3 minutes ago, CaptainRyan said:

Fullborn are not, necessarily, a "hack". It is possible for genetics to handle the making of a Fullborn.

I mean that their terrifying power comes from a magic hack. If Compounding were impossible, Fullborns would still be pretty strong (all those Twinborn combos and stuff), but wouldn't be outright godlike.

[CaptainRyan]

6 minutes ago, Oversleep said:

I mean that their terrifying power comes from a magic hack. If Compounding were impossible, Fullborns would still be pretty strong (all those Twinborn combos and stuff), but wouldn't be outright godlike.

While I might be quibbling over semantics, is Compounding really a hack? I mean, isn't it just a "natural" interaction of the two magic systems? In the same way that Surgebinding is a natural interaction of Honor and Cultivation? To me, a hack is doing something that the magic system does not naturally allow to every user; e.g. Vasher feeding on Stormlight to sustain his Returned form. 

In other words, I always thought Compounding was an intended result and not an accident or a hack.

[Yata]

It's more a matter of semantic.

For example to me an Hack it's: "Made the magic works out of its standard parameters". With this interpretation, The Compounding is an Hack that allow you to trick Allomancy to get something doens't belong to it.

I am more rigid than that, for example I see the Interactions between the Metallic Arts and the Godmetals as an Hack.  But I may see how someone can be aganist my view.

Returning to the overpowered Magic Systems... The OP ones are the external Magic Systems, Magic who are fueled directly from an external and almost unlimited source of power (a Shard). In this type of Magic we have: Allomancy, Feruchemy (if the Compound is used) and the Selish ones.

[Argel]

"Hack" implies doing something to make it work. Compounding "just works" so I wouldn't call it a hack. If a Returned on Roshar can just absorb Stormlight instead of Breaths then I would not consider that a hack either. 

[Stormgate]

Sanderson might call it a hack. Investiture hacks, from what I've seen, involve using one magic system to do the thing another magic system usually does. In this case, using Allomancy to do what Feruchemy does.

[Yata]

Well Compound "just work" is an oversimplification.

TLR took time to learn how compound, also Inquisitors began to understand the trick but they are uncapable or not efficient in doing.

Everything may be simply once you began skilled in doing it. But this doesn't mean you aren't actuallu doing something strange.

For example: The Seon's Bond gift new abilities on Roshar, this is probably an Hack of Roshar's magic...but you actually need just to be on Roshar to exploit this hack. Or Nightblood so far we know.

[Oversleep]

10 hours ago, Yata said:

For example: The Seon's Bond gift new abilities on Roshar, this is probably an Hack of Roshar's magic...but you actually need just to be on Roshar to exploit this hack. Or Nightblood so far we know.

Careful. I know the WoB you're refering to and it caused a lot of debate whether it really means what we think it may mean.

Anyway, a natural interaction of magic would be Twinborns. For example Crashers could be a nice example of how magics interact. Compounding however is something that was not "meant" to be - it's like a short circuit. Can it achieve a desirable effect under specific circumstances? Yes, of course. Is it meant to work like that? Not really.

[djammmer]

On ‎8‎/‎3‎/‎2016 at 2:39 PM, Oversleep said:

If there was another Shard on Nalthis and there would be a way to multiple Breaths you have by means similar to Compounding, then I guess Nalthis would get pretty broken.

I guess having 50000 breaths was Nalthis's way of compounding.  Power there does not seem linear WRT to breath count - it seems exponential.