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2016-07-24 Amethyst Tower Prologue


Ghando43

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Overall

Better than last time for sure! Still struggles in places. More description, especially the concrete, specific kind, is needed. The characters don't stick with me and I have no real feel for setting. Also, per last time, I cannot get behind stories that use female characters and their deaths sole for advancing a male lead. This trope is sexist and needs to die. Please, help us kill it.

 

As I go

- page 1: far fewer numbers than before': this is vague. 100? 1000? Give some estimate of number, especially this early on in the narrative. Reader needs grounding

- lots of common splices. Check grammar

- page 1: all we know about Silvan is that he is shorter than Kendaryk. Descriptions would be very useful. I have no visualization of either of the men right now

- When writing dialogue, if you add a tag then the sentence doesn't get a period inside the quotes. For instance, you do this:

"That is some fascinating grammar." She said. When it should be this: "That is some fascinating grammar," she said.

- Start of page two reads like author info dump, and it would be nice description to have earlier, maybe through dialogue or him hearing soldiers talking about him

- page two: "The day following the victory..." why not just start the chapter here, if the previous stuff isn't going to be fleshed out and/or relevant. Might give the narrative some more mystery, too, to start right there.

- page2-3: Ah, much better grounding of the character with respect to his family. I am now more interested in the story

- page 4: and my fridge logic sensors are starting to tingle. Please, no death of the daughter to push empathy for the father....

- page six: MUCH better description of the attack. Now it is more ominous, with descriptions of the perpetrators. The snatching makes the burning less cliche

- page 9: not a fan of the ending. Death of the only relevant female characters to further character development and foster empathy in male characters is problematic at best. 

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That is much better, though it still feels a little bit like a cliché-story. Much less now, but I guess the residue of it will stay if there is a humans-"orcs"-war.

I stumbled upon a couple of things, nothing major, but things that I think could be handled better:

- the village Еlder is too calm. She gives the information with almost military precision. In my experience even slightly traumatized people, even if they are calm, start to tell things from the middle, going back to the start, then jump to the finish and end crying, so to say. It is possible, that she could say this; but still, I'm not convinced. Probably it could be better handled in the way "after interviewing the survivors the general started to put a picture together: The attack startewd with nightfall...".

- the part with "tearing down houses as if searching for something" seemed far too analytical for me. I guess it is foreshadowing, but it could be handled like "They burned down houses. And afterwards they searched the ashes..."

- timing. The army seems to be just one day after the barebloods - the villages are all freshly burned down within the last day -, but when the messenger reports it sounds as if the attacks started at least a week ago, and an army is, as you already said, a slow thing. I think that to express this there shall be reports of bareblood raids "at every point of the compass", refugees everywhere, famine, smoke columns on the horizon, such things.

- The general himself. If its a kingdom with a feudal or semi-feudal structure, he must be at least a minor lord. It feels strange that in his mansion there are no workers, no servants, no grooms for his horses, no people to watch after the cattle; and that he has a workshop where he repairs things for himself. It is possible, but it is not exactly what to expect from a general, who is in field half a year.

And, finally, I still miss any kind of a hook. The cliffhanger if the daughter is alife or not is not enough. That the barebloods carried the war to the hinterlands is... a kind of a strategy, also nothing very grasping. That they search for something? It certainly feels like foreshadowing, but I am not entirely convinced.
In my opinion the very point of the prologue is to hook the reader that he won't go to the next book. Give us an idea why we should read this book, and why it is not another war novel with a bit of magic in it.

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I see I have similar reactions to kaisa and Alfa.  I'm also still missing a hook, though this is an improvement over last time.  Also, since this is just the prologue, I'd be interested in reading the first couple chapters to see what the story gets into.  Why is this a prologue?  What changes between this and the main story?

15 hours ago, kaisa said:

- page two: "The day following the victory..." why not just start the chapter here, if the previous stuff isn't going to be fleshed out and/or relevant. Might give the narrative some more mystery, too, to start right there.

My thoughts exactly.

 

pg 1: There's a lot of talk here, and a resolution of a battle, but not a lot of action to draw me into the story.  I don't really care that the troops won yet, because I don't know what they're fighing for.

pg 2: Again, lots of talk, nothing really happening.  The explanation about Kendaryk's daughter could probably be cut down to the bare essentials at this point.

pg 6: "Kendaryk walked around the table, and placed a hand on her shoulder"
--why?  This seems like a lot of effort to make a statement.

This whole interlude with the town that's been hit doesn't add much.  How does speaking to the head woman further the plot?  


Dialogue:  I would try reading your dialogue out loud and see how it sounds.  It reads a little stilted.

 

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Straight into the comments.

Para. 1 – Yeah, straight away I'm happier with the new opening. There is action taking place and we are getting instant background on what is going on in the world.

End Para. Page 1 – This makes him sound cold and calculating, not really caring about his men, but only the boost in morale. This is repeated in Para. 1, Page 2, where he seems to only show concern for his men so that they will fight for him. I know what you’re trying to get at, but I don’t think you're hitting the mark in these passages.

Bottom of Page 2, you do again what you did somewhere on Page 1. You use ‘Silvan’ three times close together. It’s not necessary and quite distracting.

The battle is over, and they are now only a few miles from the city. Even if the general was the last man to leave the battlefield, he could have moved to the front by now.

“medical center” is too modern a phrase.

“Caspin is a lucky village for you” – this phrasing isn’t right.

“Like the preceding villages...”

Why does his daughter pretend to grow plants, why can’t she actually grow plants? To me, it would actually be harder to pretend than just stick a seed in the ground.

Overall, I'm struggling to decide if I like this version more than the first. I can see improvements, but it’s still not grabbing me. My problem, I think, lies in the fact that it’s still quite predictable. Everyone behaves exactly as you would expect them to, and their emotions are exactly as one would expect.

I'm reminded of a phrase that Howard Taylor used in Season 9 of Writing Excuses when the team were talking about how they come up with ideas. He said something like “Avoid the low hanging fruit.” What he meant was, don’t use the first idea that comes into your head, because that’s the first one that everyone thinks of, discard it, and discard the next think, until you get to the ideas that most people won’t reach.

An example? Maybe the enemy killed all the children in the village apart from his daughter. Maybe Silvan refuses to obey the order to go north and deserts to run after the latest barmaid. Maybe the Bareblood band that attacked his village all commit suicide in the village square, setting up a puzzling mystery. These are random notions, but I'm trying to illustrate by comparison why I felt there was nothing surprising in this prologue as it is.

I hope that these comments are helpful. The most important thing is to keep going. We’re all learning all the time, and sharing our work is pretty much the only way to do that.

<R>

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So, I was away the week the original version came out, so this is my first look at it this story.

Overall: isn't this the intro to Gladiator? Nearly note for note.

p.1

Your first paragraph is incredibly weak. Misplaced commas in the first sentence aside, you're opening off by telling us that wow, all this potentially interesting stuff has already happened and there's no particularly interesting thing going on presently. If you'd like, I can pull it apart in more detail, because in all honesty, I feel like you could use this opener as a teaching example of how not to open a story. But that's the gist. Straight-up, I would not read past the first sentence if I encountered this story in the wild.

I'm also really tired of characters whose fortunes are presented as inherently tied to war but are always hoping the war is ending. It's a very tired design cliche used to add interest to otherwise paper-thin characters; it is more or less the grizzled manpain form of 'but she's very clumsy' common to weakly-written YA heroines. That is, it's never actually presented as a meaningful point in the character; it never meaningfully informs the character's actions, there's never a consequence or opportunity cost. It's a standard bolt-on.

Your second paragraph reinforces your first, including in having commas that should not be there.

para 3, holy expository dialogue, batman. This is parody, right? You do not expect the reader to take this seriously, do you? You cannot.

para 4, the paragraph itself is just really badly constructed, your actors are tangled, and... okay, so, both keep from angrying up my own blood and because there's enough here that I'd need to use gdocs or word, I'm not going to give you line-by-lines here but every single sentence thus far has stuff I'd call out if I was doing that, some in multiple places. I'm going to have to skim, and just make broad notations per page.

p.2

You're breaking POV to tell the reader about your main character. Do you really have that little faith in your own ability to convey this by how you present his actions in the story?

You need to read your dialogue out loud, because right now your phrasing is incredibly stilted. "She is getting big" is in no way a natural construction and pretty much everything else is the same calibre. Your narration too would benefit because it's got this very ponderous, unnatural phrasing to it. You'd do well to look at sentences that you feel have a natural flow to them and pull them apart and look at why they work well.

And we bottom off the page with a one-two punch of very tired heteronormative cliches.

p.3

Oh, god, you're fridging the daughter. You're fridging the daugher. Five dollars says you're fridging the daughter. Look, this paragraph tangent you're going off on here is effectively a filmic technique and it's noted for being really tired there. Gladiator had trouble selling those scenes, and you're not Ridley Scott. It doesn't work in text.

p.4

Language continues to be highly stilted.

Kendaryk is in charge of the army? Where's he getting his intelligence from? What sort of strategists, tacticians does he have? This seems like a major, major, avoidable blunder if he's at all qualified.

p.5

This reads like an outline, and the dialogue continues to serve no purpose other than exposition. This reads more like bullet points.

p.6

No new comments here but all old ones remain.

P.7

Bland and telly and outliney. Somehow you took a cliched sentiment like boiling blood and put it into passive voice, hamstringing any possible impact you might have had.

p.8

You're using way too much passive voice to convey emotion here. You're disconnecting the reader from the action.

p.9

Oh wow, I figured you were going to fridge the daughter, but you did that and the mother, too! Two of the three female characters you've seen fit to include in your story have solely existed within the narrative to provide fuel for your main character's manpain. That's vile.

This is the sort of decision that in addition to being an incredibly cheap emotional play and showing sheer contempt for women is also the sort of decision that causes readers to think less of the writer as a person. The fact that you're literally opening the story with this-- shock! women are dead, fueling this man's desire to do literally anything at all! is pretty repugnant. I've been trying to be restrained prior to this point but knowing that literally everything I read through up to this point has solely been leading up to this? I'm actually disgusted with myself for not bailing when I saw the warning signs. This isn't okay. This isn't okay at all. You should seriously rethink the decisions that led you to choose this as a motivator for your main character.

Edited by neongrey
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- He's only been fighting for a month? I understand war is stressful for any duration, but a month seems like a relatively short period of time. Then again, maybe he was stationed somewhere else away from his family before the fighting began? I can understand him missing his family, but it seems like he's been at this a lot longer than a month.

- There's a little too much telling about Kendayk and not enough showing. Think of ways to show how he cares for me, how they look up to him. One detail I do like is that he finds his men treat the injured just fine without him, showing he's not a micromanager. More interactions like, on a more personal level, can really boost the characterization.

- I like his conversation with the old woman. This is also a good place to show his kindness.

- This is a definite improvement. I did want to ask this question: not knowing anything about the shape of the story to come...do you absolutely need a prologue? It seems like a lot of elements in this story can be filtered into backstory and flashbacks as the story continues, especially with the tragic loss of his family. It's just a thought, but again, I don't know what you are going for. I would, however, like to read more.

- Don't be discouraged by all the critiques. I had a ton of notes for my novel "Scholomancer". Like Robinski said, the important thing is to keep going. 

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5 hours ago, rdpulfer said:

Don't be discouraged by all the critiques. I had a ton of notes for my novel "Scholomancer". Like Robinski said, the important thing is to keep going. 

Seconded. Being a good writer is all about being a good revisionist. My first five drafts of any book are usually crap. Around about edit six they start resembling something salable. Revision eight is usually sub worthy. Three revisions later and they're ready for print. It takes time.

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Everything I said was critique given in good faith of the work, and I stand by it as such. This is demonstrably and verifiably the sort of plot device that causes readers to form an unpleasant view of the person who wrote it, in large part because it can only exist as a conscious choice made in the writing process. It is not the sort of plot device that can be painted as serving some higher need (especially when presented in a manner as this story): it exists because of and furthers misognyny in writing.

I've bowed out before when I didn't think I'd be able to crit work in good faith. That's not what happened here; this entire piece is structured to funnel the reader into a bit where the majority of the named women in it are killed solely to make the protagonist appear more sympathetic. Any connection at all to media trends within the past fifteen, twenty years should make it very clear that this is not acceptable in the slightest. The thought process that leads up to deciding to use this mechanism must be examined, because the underlying misogyny cannot continue. The casual acceptance of this type of plot device is a large contributor to driving women away both from the genre and spaces surrounding it. If one feels badly at the prospect of considering how deeply this sentiment runs in oneself: should it really feel good?

I stand by what I said: it was in no respect a "flame", and I think if Krystalynn has a problem with me, she should say so to me directly, rather than talk around me. If she wants to go back to pretending I don't exist that's fine, but this isn't the first time she's broken that to wave off what I had to say. I'd rather she not try and have it both ways.

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3 hours ago, Kurkistan said:

There are a series of lines between critique -> harsh critique -> hurtful critique -> insulting critique, and you managed to cross all of them over the course of your post.

@Kurkistan I'd like to have a dialogue about this assessment, if possible. I do agree that some areas were over the top, but to report the post and/or call it insulting delegitimizes the points that @neongrey, and I myself, were trying to bring up. If the chapter (and I realize you haven't read it), killed its only two black characters at the end to advance a white male story, no one would have thought twice about neongrey's critique. 

I understand that sexism and misogyny are so prevalent in literature that it can be easy to sweep calls of 'foul' under the rug to protect feelings of those who do not realize what it is they are doing (and indeed, I do not think @Ghando43 was being purposefully malicious). However, I did call these issues out in Ghando's first run through, and they persisted into this next round. A stronger message was perhaps needed. 

As a group, I would hope that we could all agree that women deserve an equal place at the table with men (as do non binaries, but that is not this conversation). When a group, especially a marginalized group, is further marginalized or a writer perpetuates a very well know, previously highlighted derogatory stance, it is our right (and really should be our duty, but not all of us are comfortable engaging to nenogrey's extent online) to highlight the problem. In cases like this, above, to chastise neongrey for her aggressive wording is acceptable only if does not thereby delegitimize her (very rightful) anger.

There is a line to walk, here, as with anything, and as someone who exists in multiple marginalized communities, I want people here to understand that posts like neongrey's should be discussed, not thrown out with the bathwater. There is a problem with the story told, it should be discussed in terms of treatment of women, and it is neongrey's right to express her anger. It is not her right to attack people directly, so yes, some of her wording could have been softer, but that doesn't mean that the rest of the forum should ignore her very relevant comments, nor the greater issues presented.

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Actually, I reported it, based on comments between me, krystalynn, and Robinski.  All of us thought it was too harsh.  

I think the critique and thought behind the post was good, but the method of delivery was poor, especially targeting someone brand new to the group, thus my 07/26 post.

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13 minutes ago, Mandamon said:

I think the critique and thought behind the post was good, but the method of delivery was poor

I guess my question then is, did it need to be reported, or just discussed? Tone is super important. You'll get no argument from me there. You and I both agree that the critique was valid, including the reasoning. Delivery was ... not our usual format. I'd argue for 'strong' instead of 'poor', but I see your viewpoint. 

In instances like these, instead of reporting, could we not open a dialogue for discussion? When people have strong feelings, especially over marginalization, far more progress can be made by engaging all parties than to simply have an administrator waggle a (digital) finger. 

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I also agree with critique of that aspect, if not as vehemently, which doesn't mean I condone it.

I would like to have an open discussion about this and other things on the forum, however I have been warned of certain topics before. So it does not seem to be an entirely level playing field.

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20 minutes ago, Robinski said:

So it does not seem to be an entirely level playing

Are you referring to the binary discussions? If so, I think that was critique thread specific. That's why I made that pronoun thread, but it hasn't been much utilized. 

We could move the whole shebang to the lounge. Would that work for everyone? Apologies for @Ghando43 for hijacking the critique thread here.

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It is not the nicest possible framing of the sentiment but in particular I feel that going too soft on things like this leads to people dismissing the magnitude of impact this has on women and female adjacent people. (and indeed it appears this was previously dismissed in a prior revision).  This sort of plot device is an active contributor to marginalization of women in genre. It cannot be treated lightly. Again: I stand by what I said as critique of the work given in good faith.

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1 minute ago, kaisa said:

In instances like these, instead of reporting, could we not open a dialogue for discussion? When people have strong feelings, especially over marginalization, far more progress can be made by engaging all parties than to simply have an administrator waggle a (digital) finger. 

Technically I'm a global mod.

So far as I'm concerned my job here is to keep things on an even keel. So long as content is respectful and civil then it's no concern of mine what that content is.

In light of that, I strongly encourage users to Report or contact a mod/admin if they at any point feel that it's appropriate to do so. Discussion is all well and good (and I don't see any evidence of my finger-wagging as having dissuaded that), but it's always appropriate to call in a staff member if you feel the need.

If we see a report that we determine doesn't need a response, then we simply don't comment and that's that. No harm done. If we see a report that does merit a response, then it's something that we should be made aware of, and it was the right call to bring it to our attention.

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10 minutes ago, Kurkistan said:

but it's always appropriate to call in a staff member if you feel the need.

So the mods operate as more of a touchstone, sort of grounding base, instead of a punitive force? I can get behind that. 

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4 hours ago, kaisa said:

So the mods operate as more of a touchstone, sort of grounding base, instead of a punitive force? I can get behind that. 

Yes, this is basically the point of the different mods on the forums. We aren't here to strictly punish, but to keep things level and on topic, and at times help facilitate discussion.

 

We commonly get "reports" for many issues, not just ones requiring corrective action (help with editing/deleting your own posts, spam, questions raised by people too afraid/shy to ask in the open, rules clarifications, etc.), and we encourage this. A report doesn't necessarily mean "punish this person", and not every report asking for corrective action gets acted upon. The only time we step in is if we feel it's warranted, and sometimes whether it's warranted or not is discussed among ourselves first. In short, if anyone feels the need to reach out to a moderator for any reason, regardless of if you feel attacked, are unsure of board features, feel someone is acting inappropriate, getting a topic back on track, or just have a simple question, we encourage that.

 

As for the topic at hand, I have to agree with Kurk here. While a good majority of the post in question is good critique, some of it comes off as (or can be interpreted as) pretty aggressive. I'm 100% certain that @neongrey's intention was NOT inflammatory, and was intended to be helpful and constructive, i would at least have to ask to dial back the tone a bit. You can point out the problems/flaws (and stress their importance) in someone's work without making assumptions about the writer's character/ability.

 

@neongrey If you wish to discuss the specifics of why i personally feel this way on the topic (we're all people here, and even mods such as myself and kurk can misinterpret things), you can feel free to PM me if you want to talk in a more private setting, and I'm sure @Kurkistan(who stepped in first) would probably be open to such a discussion as well.

 

That said, i personally see no more "corrective action" needed here than "tone it down, please", as a flame war has not exactly erupted or anything.

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@Eerongal and @Kurkistan I really appreciate you taking the time to have this conversation. I understand a lot more about moderators and the forum in general now.

I'm also really pleased with how well the discussion did go, that (I think) everyone was heard, and that we all remained civil. I'm proud to be a member of a forum that is willing to explain its logic, hear its members, and encourage dialogue.

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9 minutes ago, kaisa said:

@Eerongal and @Kurkistan I really appreciate you taking the time to have this conversation. I understand a lot more about moderators and the forum in general now.

I'm also really pleased with how well the discussion did go, that (I think) everyone was heard, and that we all remained civil. I'm proud to be a member of a forum that is willing to explain its logic, hear its members, and encourage dialogue.

Absolutely. We have always striven to promote open discussion and acceptance of all viewpoints on this forum, and have generally tried to cultivate a friendly atmosphere. We always want people to feel like they can approach the whole moderation staff with anything they need.

 

Note, however, that when it comes to small stuff, each individual moderator is left to their own devices and judgement. We aren't convening a secret cabal to discuss every report/issue brought up to the staff. As such, in general, a view expressed by any given moderator is their own and doesn't necessarily represent the staff as a whole. If you ever feel that you or anyone else are being treated unfairly or attacked, even by a member of the staff, please bring it to our attention, and we will generally do our best to resolve/diffuse the situation if we feel it is warranted.

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While it looks like the conversation has closed and I hate to hijack this thread even further (apologies to Ghando), I do think it's appropriate that folks know where I stand on this one. Briefly: I accept that this is was intended as good-faith critique but also agree that way in which it was delivered was unduly harsh, and second the request of the mods to be mindful of that in the future.

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