04-07-2016 - Waning, Ch. 7

[neongrey]

Before you read: the scene to be inserted earlier on with Savae is slated to provide a little more context to what they're doing here, and a bit to the conversation Lasila overhears. To wit: one Varael Ashana, the leader of an organized crime syndicate to whom Savae has some obligation, has required that Savae retrieve some small amount of any bodily fluid belonging to a Senator Riruna, and pass it off to his brother-by-marriage Aserahin (who first appears here). Varael is among other things a student of dark magics, and he does not say but Savae surmises that the fluid is required for a ritual that is outside of their expertise.

Now then!

Previously: Lasila Vahendra is at this point effectively alone in the world. Her brother Varinen has departed to assist with peace talks that could possibly put an end to the aelin's part in the war with the shudkathra. She is presently attending a celebration honouring the revival of the recently-dead goddess Alia; she hopes to gain connections she can exploit to further her education and ensure that she can find employment that will move her up in the world. She doesn't much like the escort her brother secured for her-- a senator's younger brother.

This time: Clothing, clothing everywhere. The dreaded four-way conversation. Politics. Extremely modern fashion. I try to rescue appliques from their sad misuse in fiction.

There's a lot of names flying here and a lot going on-- if it's a little confusing, especially before Lasila finds a groove, that's okay, or at least not unintended. She's out of her depth.

That said, nobody with a name here is a one-off; general first impressions on Rienri, Iluya, and Senator Melqueth would be appreciated; I'll hold off on asking about Aserahin until he gets lines, next time.

Next time: Iluya. Maranthe. Aserahin. Someone new. Kaisa explodes.

[Mandamon]

On 7/4/2016 at 1:55 PM, neongrey said:

Before you read: the scene to be inserted earlier on with Savae is slated to provide a little more context to what they're doing here, and a bit to the conversation Lasila overhears. To wit: one Varael Ashana, the leader of an organized crime syndicate to whom Savae has some obligation, has required that Savae retrieve some small amount of any bodily fluid belonging to a Senator Riruna, and pass it off to his brother-by-marriage Aserahin (who first appears here). Varael is among other things a student of dark magics, and he does not say but Savae surmises that the fluid is required for a ritual that is outside of their expertise.

Ahh yes.  This would have helped a lot.

Overall, there was a lot here, but I'm not sure if I know what it was.  I enjoyed Savae's section a lot more, as they have some sort of agenda they are following.  Interested to see where that turns up.  as for Lasila...she sort of floats through this section.  She's not very proactive, and I don't have a basis for all the
political talk, so it mostly ended up being distracting.  For an orgy, this is a lot more like a formal dinner party...

Notes as I read, attempting to actually notate with the ABCD system.

pg 1 (C): "Savae stretched out the bulb that was once the bowl of the glass, thinning it. A third or a quarter or so, and and of those all but two or three
would only know that something was coming."
--I like Savae messing with the glass while thinking, but I had to read this paragraph a couple times.  I don't think the ideas were connected well enough.

pg 1 (C): "When his eyes met Savae's they paused for half a second, a bare acknowledgement, before he moved on. He'd be ready. It'd be a while before they
could get the real glass."
--ok, I get that something's going on, but I'm mainly confused at this point.  I guess Savae is getting some sort of DNA from the senator?  Not sure why at this
point, as I don't know what Savae even does. (Edit: your description above will help this out)

pg 2 (C) : "Eshrin" is close enough to "Aserahin" that I had to make sure it wasn't some derivative form.

pg 2 (C) : "Above all else, she needed to remember why she was here"
--a reminder might be nice here.  Partially WRS, but with all the intervening chapters I've lost sight of what her aim is.  

pg 2 (D): "Was that a human?..."
--ok, this is new.  I wasn't aware there were humans around, and Lasila's list of how humans are different from aelin really pops me out of the story here and makes me re-evaluate the picture I'm made up in my mind of Lasila.  Evidently the aelin are a lot slimmer and more androgynous than humans...
--an additional note: is this Savae?  Would Lasila know to use a gender neutral term, or would she assume a gender based on what she sees?  

pg 3 (B): tending to skim over all the clothing descriptions.
--in fact, most of the rest of this page and half of pg 4 I sort of skimmed through.  I don't know enough about the political and financial movements of
senators to really care at this point.

pg 5 (D): "affianced"
--had to look this up.  Technically correct, but here it sounds fairly pretentious.

[neongrey]

2 hours ago, Mandamon said:

Ahh yes.  This would have helped a lot.

Overall, there was a lot here, but I'm not sure if I know what it was.  I enjoyed Savae's section a lot more, as they have some sort of agenda they are following.  Interested to see where that turns up.  as for Lasila...she sort of floats through this section.  She's not very proactive, and I don't have a basis for all the
political talk, so it mostly ended up being distracting.  For an orgy, this is a lot more like a formal dinner party...

The scene with Savae earlier will help with the talk Lasila overhears too-- it doesn't mean much to Lasila, but right now it's far more pertinent to Savae's plotline, though Lasila's swiftly pulling an analysis of the situation out is important too (she doesn't have much more basis than a first-time reader either, so she assembles it). That said, when I'm doing rework and the other scene is inserted there's deffo gonna be need to smoothing to make the pieces all fit.

As for the other... this is actually somewhat of an 'I'm not writing erotica in this piece' sort of trick-- I can take the next scene, the one that opens off 8, much further by keeping everyone's clothes on. For now, anyway. But the lowering of borders is important here too.

And too a certain degree of delicacy in handling is important; Lasila is two years underage and one of the youngest people at this event. This isn't going to stop her, but it must affect how I present the initial setup, before things start degenerating.

2 hours ago, Mandamon said:

pg 2 (D): "Was that a human?..."
--ok, this is new.  I wasn't aware there were humans around, and Lasila's list of how humans are different from aelin really pops me out of the story here and makes me re-evaluate the picture I'm made up in my mind of Lasila.  Evidently the aelin are a lot slimmer and more androgynous than humans...

This is something I have waffled back and forth on for a while for naming, though I think just for the purposes of allowing the reader relative comparison when I go back for rework I think it will do to make clearer that yeah, Envari is a nationality, but the people to whom it applies are human. It's not the first time the differences (beyond the wings) have come up, but it's only ever been in aside before, so missing them is not really a big deal. (most obviously, 'needs an architect, not a corsetier')

While there's not a good way to get one in front of Lasila for her to make these comparisons prior to now, I think, again, the planned earlier Savae scene will also help provide this.

2 hours ago, Mandamon said:

--an additional note: is this Savae?  Would Lasila know to use a gender neutral term, or would she assume a gender based on what she sees?  

She did make an assumption, the one that is present in the text. Savae will not be misgendered. Please don't suggest that this be done.

Thanks for reading! I definitely think overall the other Savae scene will make a lot of difference here; just enough grease to get the wheels moving.

Edited July 6, 2016 by neongrey

[kais]

I won't explode until next week? *pout* I guess my orgy dance for this week is out then, too.

Overall

As you described, dresses and names abound. I wasn't overwhelmed, but I don't remember them well, either. I am intrigued by the other female who is offering to help Lasilia get a job. This seems a solid character trait and grounds me into this character. The others I don't really have a feel for yet.

I'm starting to get a very Hunger Games capitol vibe from the descriptions. Not sure if that's intentional or not. 

As I go

- tripped over 'they' right off in the first paragraph. It's the same problem I had originally with this pronoun in AFD - when used in a paragraph where they is also plural for other people being talked about, you have to read several times to figure out which they is being referred to. Could be fixed as easily as changing first sentence to: "...it was that the guests knew their cordials." Then add one more sentence about the guests, then paragraph break to direct Savae POV in next. First three readthroughs I thought it was strange that I was getting POV of guests getting violet up their noses when this was Savae's POV. Fourth read through I finally figured out what was happening.

- I'm unclear what Savae is doing with the glass. Are they just reforming the glass, or is this special glass? Magical powers? I don't know what is going on, but the imagery is pretty.

- Senate is closed to merchant classes and women? Is this the first time the reader has been shown the patriarchal nature of this society, or have I missed other, less direct clues?

- page 4: Yes, Lasila, thank you for wondering where the orgy parts will be taking place. Let's discuss this in detail.

- page 7: "...hair shone like butter..." This is not the most flattering imagery. Shiny butter is melting butter, and that's a little gross

[neongrey]

1 hour ago, kaisa said:

I won't explode until next week? *pout* I guess my orgy dance for this week is out then, too.

Even better, I'm at the lake all next week so I'm not putting in, so you will in fact need to wait for Iluya's wandering hands (unless you peek ahead, I suppose, lol)

If it makes you feel better, Senator Melqueth almost certainly whisked Eshrin away for... not just a talk.

1 hour ago, kaisa said:

As you described, dresses and names abound. I wasn't overwhelmed, but I don't remember them well, either. I am intrigued by the other female who is offering to help Lasilia get a job. This seems a solid character trait and grounds me into this character. The others I don't really have a feel for yet.

Iluya is somewhat of a delight; one might or might not notice yet that it's actually her house's sign which this story is named for.

1 hour ago, kaisa said:

I'm starting to get a very Hunger Games capitol vibe from the descriptions. Not sure if that's intentional or not. 

Not intentional but I wouldn't call it wrong, either.

1 hour ago, kaisa said:

- tripped over 'they' right off in the first paragraph. It's the same problem I had originally with this pronoun in AFD - when used in a paragraph where they is also plural for other people being talked about, you have to read several times to figure out which they is being referred to. Could be fixed as easily as changing first sentence to: "...it was that the guests knew their cordials." Then add one more sentence about the guests, then paragraph break to direct Savae POV in next. First three readthroughs I thought it was strange that I was getting POV of guests getting violet up their noses when this was Savae's POV. Fourth read through I finally figured out what was happening.

Thanks; yeah, in this case for this character I'd much rather rework the sentences that don't fall out right than go with a neopronoun, and I do my best to catch all the odd ones but you never can quite get every one by yourself, haha. I think that particular reframe won't work because Savae is making a more generalized observation but I think I can come up with something there.

(the fact that they are quite so fond of creme de violette, too, probably says something... )

1 hour ago, kaisa said:

- I'm unclear what Savae is doing with the glass. Are they just reforming the glass, or is this special glass? Magical powers? I don't know what is going on, but the imagery is pretty.

Yeah, this could be clearer, that they're working their own magic here. Savae works pretty intuitively so they don't stop to explain much but the framing could work better. We will eventually be in the head of someone who works magic much more analytically, so partially I want this view of actual practice first.

1 hour ago, kaisa said:

- Senate is closed to merchant classes and women? Is this the first time the reader has been shown the patriarchal nature of this society, or have I missed other, less direct clues?

Hasn't come up in the past couple, but nothing terribly indirect (though some of the implications might not be outright stated)-- Lasila is waiting for the senate to open civil service examinations for women because she considers it the best opportunity for herself she can get, until she's able to reestablish trade under her family name; one of the other major religions in the city has largely been using influence to limit women ever since the god's mortal lover died in war and successfully kept them down for some time, etc-- all of this has been given some screen time thus far.

But all this has been fraying quite a lot with attrition from the war-- your Rosie the Riveter types have come and gone and while society as a whole is becoming far more open to these notions, the laws and entrenched powers haven't exactly caught up yet, and class inequality is probably at an all-time high. So where Lasila isn't terribly personally restricted, she's certainly going to find herself coming up against these sorts of barrier a lot.

1 hour ago, kaisa said:

- page 7: "...hair shone like butter..." This is not the most flattering imagery. Shiny butter is melting butter, and that's a little gross

Hmm, fair. I could do something else.

Thanks!

[rdpulfer]

- The first line feels a bit awkward, particularly with "they knew their cordials."

- Could be Weekly Reader Syndrome, but I don't remember the POV changing much previously, and it feels a little weird to be focused so exclusively on Lasila, only to go briefly to Savae.

- I really like Lasila's opening thoughts about this being a terrible idea, much better than the opening line of the chapter.

- I like Lasila's interaction with the courtesans as well as Eshrin, especially when they hear she's alone. 

- Overall, I liked all the description. I'm glad the story is starting to move faster now. 

[Robinski]

I must admit that I was a bit bored through the earlier parts of this submission, maybe the first half (details below the line). It was mostly to do with the numerous descriptions, mostly of people who came and went in moments, which I started skimming, but also the fact that none of the conversations really warranted the term, being very cursory and not as satisfying as I wanted.

I thought there was a lack of clarity in the phrasing of parts of the prose, which are complicated enough to induce that confusion. Simpler phrasing in those places would go a long way to pulling the reader through the long passages of description, and would make the dialogue more direct without affecting the complexity of the content.

Things improved when Lasila arrived at the table and met the ‘family party’ as it were. I did enjoy those exchanges. I think though that Iluya’s helpfulness was too immediately convenient to Lasila’s need, and so suddenly available that it strained credulity.

Finally, cheese before desert? Shocking ;o)

<R>

-------------------------------------------

“if they were to be absent that illusion” - ???

“A third or a quarter or so, and and of those all but two or three would only know that something was coming” – I think ‘those’ refers back to the guests, but something seems to have fallen out.

“before she did something like ‘tch’ aloud” – I think the sound is best marked out. Also, I'm sure what kind of sound this is. What is interpret it as is a ‘tsk’, which is an accepted form of a sound meaning disapproval.

“But the coat, the trousers, they were midnight blue” – This is the first mention of blue and we’re on Page 3. I’ve got the wrong mental picture of Savae by this point.

“that inauspicious colour” – do we know this from before, do we have a reason for it?

“It almost distracted from the fact that they were completely bare-faced” – Now then, we’re in Lasila’s POV. Why would she refer to Savae as ‘they’? This tends to imply that all humans are binary. Is that right? It seems unlikely to say the least. Otherwise, surely Lasila would make an assumption one way or another, would she not? Her thoughts in parenthesis earlier show that she is not sensitive to judgements that a human might find offensive, so why would she be sensitive to Savae’s orientation when she knows nothing about it?

“ideal aelin androgyny” – No, hang on, you’re losing me. As far as I can remember, no other aelin has been referred to as ‘they’, it’s all been he’s and she’s – and yet androgyny is their ideal? So none of the aelin comes close enough to that ideal for them to be perceived or referred to as ‘they’ by Lasila?

“I never would have imagined.” – This is an anodyne statement. It seems beneath her.

“They approached the cluster...” – By this point, I am skimming descriptions, as I find them getting in the way of actual events/actions.

“Perhaps, or perhaps you'd find yourself permanently affixed to the sort of woman who would marry that far down” – Confused. I thought the red head was the one who would have been marrying ‘down’ to Ealis’ sister.

“Even Eshrin wasn't interjecting much, so Lasila easily grasped that she didn't need to say much.” – This is obvious from the first part – don’t need to tell it.

“The edicts of the Sleeping God's priesthood” – If it’s an edict that woman cannot be senators then her thoughts about it being improbable are erroneous.

“So there would be at least semi-privacy to be had” – She really has no clue about what an orgy is, does she? Do we know what level of experience she has in carnal matters? I don’t recall any reference to it, but she certainly comes across as being virginal. She doesn’t seem sufficiently nervous about the latter part of the evening.

Lasila considers the intendeds dress to be conservative, and yet by the end of the description she’s thinking about her bold choices – these notes seem contradictory.

Hmm, “I'd go with lucky, myself” – She’s here to elevate herself and raise the profile of her family, make valuable contacts and generally try to punch above her weight, but she is really undermining that by how she’s acting. Maybe that’s your intention, of course.

“But, no, she didn't need to lose her calm after regaining it” – She certainly doesn’t need to. I get no sense of what she means. ‘need’ seems like the wrong word, too bland. ‘mustn’t lose her calm’ or ‘didn’t want to lose her calm’, I think.

“is he truly the one who stopped that anarchist that tried to attack the Senate chambers?” – Ah ha, this is the first thing in the submission that has caught my attention. I'm sure we don’t know about this yet. It refers to a character already well established and actually makes me with that Varinen was here.

I'm more engaged now that there is some substantive conversation taking place and we’re past the floating around and blocks of description.

“Do you know, my lawyer mentioned that his assistant has been needing time from the office. She's due in a few months, you know. It might be that he could use a hand a few days a week?” – The first two sentences here are questions, and the third one is not. All’s fair in love and prose, but this reversal of ‘?’ use struck me as odd, it certainly stood out.

“and are were very thrilled indeed to avoid becoming lunch” – I think.

“Lasila rather doubted Iluya knew quite so well what it was to be alone” – Some of the prose is overcomplicated. I don’t think the reader should have to work so hard to get the meaning. I feel that this submission flows less well than most of what has gone before.

“so she must be of a listed noble house” – I don’t think I know anything about this list and the implications of being on it or not.

“hordes of breathless women who inquire after him so” – Where does this come from? I don’t remember any mention of this.

“pressing his lips to her wrists” – This seems odd, I suppose you are going for a different take on kissing (or rather not, simply brushing the lips against, if even that) the back of the hand.

Long live necessary capitalisation in fiction (and everywhere else!). “Adrichel, of House Melqueth” – It’s the name of a particular house and I therefore should be capitalised. Later on “Lasila of house Vahendra”, and there may be countless that I have missed. If you don’t believe me, just look for the examples in the material that you read. The corollary of course is “And so Eshrin was whisked away by that breathless Senator...” By the same logic, this does not deserve a capital every time you using it when referring to just ‘a senator’.

“dagged” – Yeah, okay, but I had to come out of the story to G**gle it.

“He should be pleased he's pretty, or else I might be annoyed with him.” – It’s not immediately obvious that she means Melqueth and not Eshrin, although I suppose you would have referred to the latter as being pretty earlier if he was.

[Robinski]

On 06/07/2016 at 7:33 PM, Mandamon said:

Overall, there was a lot here, but I'm not sure if I know what it was.

Lol.

20 hours ago, kaisa said:

I guess my orgy dance for this week is out then, too.

Rofl!

[spieles]

p. 1 Unless they have a specific purpose I HATE descriptions of food and alcohol in novels (see me burning all of the banal mindnumbing pages of wine description in  A DISCOVERY OF WITCHES with evil glee) - so keep that in mind.

"Savae giggled." Ew. No. Are they five years old? Or stone drunk? Just say "laughed" so that I still take them seriously.

The detail about the fire arch mage and his money keeping him out of the war is fascinating. 

I like that the woman is the bodyguard in the tall pairing.

p. 2 Scene end "Time to shine. Savae pushed off the wall" is a good end-scene note.

I'm still quite confused on what the bejeebers is going on. Also, I'm assuming you're going to go back through your beginning chapters and seed in more alternative POVs? If not, this feels very very unbalanced. I'm generally a fan for keeping narrators views as limited (and unreliable) as possible for the deepest connection with the reader but if you're going to hit multiple POVs - you should definitely make sure they're balanced.

Is the human Savae? Why do we care about the human?

Not sure why we care about the Senator and the red-gowned woman and this sister who's getting married. I'm skimming so far...

Yeah, my foodie self is not reacting well to the culinary descriptions. The food is described as light, and then it's loaded with dairy and pastry. If you are going to do the food thing, describing the hors d'oeuvres, I recommend upping the ante away from standard passed wedding appetizer cliches like stuffed mushrooms and pastries. Instead of cordials that taste like flower varieties and orchard fruits, most high society cocktails (especially for men) have savory and bitter components. More to ponder: How is winged Aelin food different than people food? Can they be crazy seed or berry eaters like birds? (What a society prizes the most says a lot about the society, e.g. the finest green tea sells in Beijing as much as a thirty year prized vintage in France - it's the sort of thing rich people fight over in auctions) Is there a taboo against or a huge demand for eating birds and other winged creatures? Is there a special seed or sugar that they're obsessed with? Also, because they're at a temple event, do any of the dishes have religious significance (best example is all the symbolism in a Passover meal). I recommend reading New York Times restaurant reviews. They do a wonderful job of mixing the exotic with mouthwatering, e.g. sweet pimentón sauce over red snapper, sliced geoduck set down on fluffy mousseline... You don't want to overdo it and yet you want the reader to taste the damnation flavors. And you're society is exotic - there are wings! Let your readers delight in some of that differences. This is me pushing you to dig deeper. If you're going to do this much description, you need to make it scintillating. 

p. 4 Like Kasia, I also like Iluya.

p. 5 I don't remember what taenosil are. WRS?

p. 6 I am very confused by this society that limits women from basic civil service jobs and then allows them to be bodyguards and wants Lasilla to have a sword on her hip. What are the underlying biases against women that contribute to this? I get that there was a religious explanation after the war, but I'm feeling a mismatch between common attitudes and practice that is confusing.

p. I like the note that the scene ends on. I'm intrigued by Senator Melqueth.

 

 

 

 

 

[neongrey]

2 hours ago, rdpulfer said:

- Could be Weekly Reader Syndrome, but I don't remember the POV changing much previously, and it feels a little weird to be focused so exclusively on Lasila, only to go briefly to Savae.

I think this will probably be alleviated some by the earlier bit, but yeah it's not an even split (nor is it terribly supposed to be, mind, but it should still be a little smoother than this).

52 minutes ago, Robinski said:

I thought there was a lack of clarity in the phrasing of parts of the prose, which are complicated enough to induce that confusion. Simpler phrasing in those places would go a long way to pulling the reader through the long passages of description, and would make the dialogue more direct without affecting the complexity of the content.

Yeah, I suspect a lot of this section's gonna need an axe taken to the prose; this part is quite rough and I'm stretching not enough to fill in the space I have here, and relying far too much on my references. More focus on what Lasila's deriving from the observation and less on straight translation of what she sees.

39 minutes ago, Robinski said:

I think though that Iluya’s helpfulness was too immediately convenient to Lasila’s need, and so suddenly available that it strained credulity.

Certainly, it might be construed as suspicious.

1 hour ago, Robinski said:

“that inauspicious colour” – do we know this from before, do we have a reason for it?

Indeed we do, and we were quite explicitly told by someone with a measure of authority that anyone in such a colour is a fool-- red is the preferred colour of the night, being one the goddess favours.

1 hour ago, Robinski said:

Otherwise, surely Lasila would make an assumption one way or another, would she not?

She did make an assumption here. She will not be misgendering Savae, and if this sort of suggestion is going to keep coming up from people, I'm honestly going to have to stop submitting. It's the sort of comment that says a lot more about the reader than the text and I become increasingly less personally comfortable presenting my unedited first drafts in such company every time it occurs.

Encountering this sort of nonsense may well be an inevitability later on in the lifetime of the MS, but I have no interest in dealing with that at this time.

Just please realize that every 'wouldn't this person assume the wrong gender for this character' is mildly transphobic (binarist, perhaps, in this case?), and it does offend me as it stacks up, both seeing it here and on others' works-- think it if you must, but as critique it is not something that I am going to derive anything useful from.

1 hour ago, Robinski said:

“The edicts of the Sleeping God's priesthood” – If it’s an edict that woman cannot be senators then her thoughts about it being improbable are erroneous.

Yeah, this slice has already seen some continuity massage for clarity, but this bit seems to have been missed.

1 hour ago, Robinski said:

I don’t recall any reference to it, but she certainly comes across as being virginal. She doesn’t seem sufficiently nervous about the latter part of the evening.

She's inexperienced but interested and yeah, this has been mentioned both previously and will be coming up again shortly.

 

1 hour ago, Robinski said:

Lasila considers the intendeds dress to be conservative, and yet by the end of the description she’s thinking about her bold choices – these notes seem contradictory.

Indeed-- but it's bold here to be not showing much off, to have not done much with the hair. Should be clearer, yeah.

1 hour ago, Robinski said:

“hordes of breathless women who inquire after him so” – Where does this come from? I don’t remember any mention of this.

This would be hyperbole used for the purposes of teasing.

1 hour ago, Robinski said:

It’s the name of a particular house and I therefore should be capitalised.

There's a consistent style followed here-- if it's in reference to the family (see: 'of house Vahendra') house isn't capitalized. If it's a business entity (see: the dress was made by House Sirie) it's capitalized.

1 hour ago, Robinski said:

“And so Eshrin was whisked away by that breathless Senator...” By the same logic, this does not deserve a capital every time you using it when referring to just ‘a senator’.

Yeah, as I've said before-- this is noted but isn't presently reflected in this first draft until 12 or so.

1 hour ago, spieles said:

"Savae giggled." Ew. No. Are they five years old? Or stone drunk? Just say "laughed" so that I still take them seriously.

Savae is rather off-kilter at best.

1 hour ago, spieles said:

Also, I'm assuming you're going to go back through your beginning chapters and seed in more alternative POVs? If not, this feels very very unbalanced. I'm generally a fan for keeping narrators views as limited (and unreliable) as possible for the deepest connection with the reader but if you're going to hit multiple POVs - you should definitely make sure they're balanced.

Yeah, I've got one more Savae going in before the current first pov, which should also clarify what they're up to here. Much as I'd prefer to keep this to one POV, Savae as POV mandatory if I don't want this text to look like it's in agreement with Lasila's procapitalist white feminism.

Neither one of them is reliable in the slightest, FWIW.

1 hour ago, spieles said:

Not sure why we care about the Senator and the red-gowned woman and this sister who's getting married. I'm skimming so far...

Yeah, this would be covered by the previous Savae POV.

1 hour ago, spieles said:

Yeah, my foodie self is not reacting well to the culinary descriptions. The food is described as light, and then it's loaded with dairy and pastry.

Good notes all through this paragraph; there's a reason why it's fairly human food which is not going to be overtly stated but it's much why Savae has an aelin-language name, and should be clearly derivable as Savae's POV sections go on. (it's that little empire business Senator Melqueth is on about). But I'll certainly rethink the selections here-- I was a bit scattershot with the references I was pulling from.

1 hour ago, spieles said:

p. 6 I am very confused by this society that limits women from basic civil service jobs and then allows them to be bodyguards and wants Lasilla to have a sword on her hip.

Yeah, there's a few things going on here-- one is that Elarin (the bodyguard, we'll get her name shortly, just easiest to use it here lol) is somewhat unconstrained by normal societal rules for reasons which will be implied if not obvious (and certainly she's not escaping comment). Rienri's comments here-- yeah, could use some rework; it's actually supposed to be much more unconsciously patronizing like that, there's a large aspect of 'wouldn't that be cute if you did that'.

Thanks lots!

Now, to work, and then packing, and hopefully I can get at least one more of these subs read before I have to go...

[kais]

2 hours ago, neongrey said:

She did make an assumption here. She will not be misgendering Savae, and if this sort of suggestion is going to keep coming up from people, I'm honestly going to have to stop submitting. It's the sort of comment that says a lot more about the reader than the text and I become increasingly less personally comfortable presenting my unedited first drafts in such company every time it occurs.

Encountering this sort of nonsense may well be an inevitability later on in the lifetime of the MS, but I have no interest in dealing with that at this time.

Just please realize that every 'wouldn't this person assume the wrong gender for this character' is mildly transphobic (binarist, perhaps, in this case?), and it does offend me as it stacks up, both seeing it here and on others' works-- think it if you must, but as critique it is not something that I am going to derive anything useful from.

4 hours ago, Robinski said:

I'd advice patience here. This is a good group, and generally very open to understanding of QUILTBAG issues. The more we write queer characters, in whatever form, the more exposure the group has, and the easier it is for the next prospective author to come in and feel comfortable in the space. Repeatedly explaining a nonbinary character is exhausting - I totally get it. But I've had a number of the commenters here ask me questions, both on board and over PM, about how it works, how one defines gender identity, and a bunch of, what I think, are eye-opening dialogues. Robinski, in particular, has been great at asking questions when he is confused about diversity outside his area of expertise.

These be good people, they just need more exposure, and between your manuscripts and mine, they are certain to get it!

*non-binary fist bump*

[neongrey]

Yeah, my frustration here is that I personally have neither the temperament nor the interest in educating on these things (it should say something that the power fantasy I am writing is an outgoing people person; I can't even look directly at other people at all, let alone the eye), and man, having this come up so often-- after expressing my own discomfort every time it does-- is really wearing. 

Like I am not ascribing malice here but it doesn't have to be malicious for it to be a cumulative problem for me. I always, always assume crit is made in good faith, but where an evisceration of a work is a case where that good faith matters, that assumption makes less difference to me when it comes down to it. I am not comfortable coming up against this at every possible opportunity. 

I don't wanna walk over this, I have gotten a lot of valuable notes for my work through this, and I hope others would say the same about me, but I am kind of at the end of my rope on this and if it does keep up, I have to look at what's best for me personally. 

I don't expect full awareness, but, like, I don't think I am being unreasonable when I ask people to lay off on the subject. 

Like, man, Savae has a nude scene in 11, I do not want to have to explain binders or answer questions about their boobs, or whatever, not in the context of me requesting crit. 

Edited July 9, 2016 by neongrey
sigh

[kais]

Quote function isn't working, but when you're ready to start thinking about publishing Waning, if you aren't opposed to small press, I think I have the right one for you if you want to avoid explaining NB characters every five pages.

[neongrey]

1 hour ago, kaisa said:

Quote function isn't working, but when you're ready to start thinking about publishing Waning, if you aren't opposed to small press, I think I have the right one for you if you want to avoid explaining NB characters every five pages.

I'm not wholly opposed to them, so I really appreciate the thought... I'll need a complete draft period though before I can even get there, haha.

Really, I have no illusions about how people in general are over this sort of thing, I just take exception to the need to deal with this in an informal setting after having asked to not. 

I expect people to get weirded out a bit more as certain particulars of aelin marriage contracts come up and that, I think, will be unavoidable.

Edited July 9, 2016 by neongrey

[Robinski]

I could not be further away from malice if I was in Queensland and it was in Portland. When I comment on this subject, it is always because I want either to improve my understanding, or because I really do feel there is a inconsistency in what is happening on the page. I'm delighted to be corrected in either case. If any of my comments have come across as malicious, then I'm truly sorry, and retract them unreservedly.

I'm kind of troubled not to be able to ask about things I don't understand, but I can refrain if that's what you want. On that basis, I won't ask the follow-up that I have on the scene under discussion, but I might PM Kaisa on the subject, if you wouldn't object.

Edited July 9, 2016 by Robinski

[neongrey]

If I thought you were ill-intentioned, I wouldn't be here to have a conversation with. My point is that you don't need to be ill-intentioned to do harm, and coming down again on the 'no, really, why don't you misgender this character' after I've already made clear that this is really not an appropriate line to take in crit (and about this exact paragraph!) is really more than I'm willing to deal with in this particular context, if only because it carries with it the implicit promise that this isn't going to stop. 

The sole facts that I'm writing a story with a major nonbinary character (and in an implied tri-gendered language) and am personally a few degrees off the binary do not obligate me to be an educator on the subject of the basics of de-binarying gender-- as I've said, I don't have the capacity to do this. Like, we're extremely lucky to have someone like Kaisa who is willing and able to go over this, because if it was just me, I would have to leave you to Google's tender mercies.

But here's something I can convey: if a text assumes a correct gender for a given character, it is offensive to suggest that an incorrect gender be assumed in the text instead. This does not obligate offense in anyone, but someone failing to be offended by this is not a signifier that a person who is offended is either in the wrong or overreacting by doing so. Please realize that people who deal with this sort of thing probably get this a whole lot, and even if in a vaccuum something is fairly minor, these things pile up until the last straw hits.

Like, I can explain the particulars of Savae's situation, and I can tell you how the societies in question address this beyond what the text proper will cover, but when it comes down to the point of repeatedly having to deal with 'why isn't the wrong gender being assumed here', that's not the sort of comment that is engaging with the text, it's the sort of comment that's engaging with the commenter's own implicit assertion that gender must be binary and that's not something I'm prepared to deal with.

[Eagle of the Forest Path]

Ok, I'll lead by saying that I enjoyed the chapter. I particularly liked the character of Iluya and the bantering, it's refreshing to read a high-society female that doesn't immediately belittle the 'new girl' MC.

However, I have to say I really can't appreciate the way you're reacting to the gender inquiries. I understand this is a personal matter for you and that you have your own view on the subject which you might not want to discuss in this topic.

But when people here - your test-readers - tell you that they are confused about something, you can safely assume that your eventual audience will be confused about it too. What's offensive to me is that you appear to be saying: "No, you can't ask me about this. Because I said so. And if you've don't understand something, tough luck, deal with it!"

If you want it so Lasila can recognise immediately that Savae is non-binary, that's fine. Personally, I don't have a problem with her instinctively referring to Savae as 'they' (though I did wonder about it). But you should explain at least a bit of why she can so easily identify their non-binary nature. Maybe you'll go into the subject later in the book (maybe you won't), if so, just tell us that (give us a RAFO card) and don't deny the issue. We give feedback and ask questions so that you can end up with the best possible version of your story; for most of us, this includes not leaving your readers with unresolved questions nagging at the back of their heads.

You can ignore any input you want, it's your story and you have to make the decisions, but getting the same remark multiple times is an indication that something is a stumbling block. You not wanting to deal with it right now is not a reason for us not to tell you right now (because five chapters later it won't matter any more).

Please note: I did not tell you to take any particular course of action. I said that "here is something that might be improved" and leave it to you to find a way to do that while staying true to the message you want to convey.

Okay, rant over. I repeat: good chapter. I hope to read more (and not just because it means we'd also get to watch kaisa's orgy dance).

Edited July 9, 2016 by Eagle of the Forest Path

[Mandamon]

OK--I resisted replying to Neon's first comment about assuming gender, because it's Neon's story, and I knew it would lead to this sort of discussion, but now since that can of worms has been opened, I'm gonna throw my two cents in.

So...

I completely agree that no one here has any malice against any non binary gender.  Like Robinksi, I'm curious.  It's a thing that is becoming more prevalent in society, and so I (as a cis white male) want to know more so as not to give offense.  My original question was from a worldbuilding stance.  Is Savae's nonbinary a normal part of society (and if so why haven't we seen it yet), thus would Lasila (who I am projecting on, being the reader) know the correct term?

Honestly, I disagree that you should not want to even mention something that is a changing part of society.  If it's something that you want to not be questioned on in the future, you have to educate others to start.  I'm vegetarian, (which was a much bigger thing 20 years ago) and so I've grown up answering questions like "Do you get enough protein," "Where do you eat," and "But do you eat X type of meat."  Obviously not exactly the same thing, but I've worked to educate others, and now I get fewer questions.

So personally, I think this would be a great story to go to a larger press.  But if that happens, the alpha/beta reader questions that come up here are going to come up again.  And you're going to have to answer them in story.  If you don't want to answer them, I think you're going to keep dealing with this contention for a long time.  Up to you.

Ok, enough ranting.  If you want me not to mention that part of the story and give feedback on the rest, will do.  Just let me know.

[kais]

7 hours ago, Robinski said:

 

I'm kind of troubled not to be able to ask about things I don't understand, but I can refrain if that's what you want. On that basis, I won't ask the follow-up that I have on the scene under discussion, but I might PM Kaisa on the subject, if you wouldn't object.

I hereby offer myself as queer tribute. I am happy to answer any and all questions regarding gender, sex, sexuality, or anything else on the spectrum. I'm not the best one to come to with trans questions as I am not a part of that community, but could offer resources on where to go for further information. 

Send me your questions.  I am ready.  

[kais]

10 hours ago, Eagle of the Forest Path said:

But when people here - your test-readers - tell you that they are confused about something, you can safely assume that your eventual audience will be confused about it too.

As much as we might like to think it is, this board is not a representative sampling of the reading population as a whole. Just because something catches here, especially something cultural, does not mean it reflects greater society. To imply that the board view, made up predominately of cis white men, is the view to which she must hold the manuscript, is narrow minded and the source of much consternation from both of us. 

For a non-cultural example, the first chapter I subbed here snagged a number of readers. The girl didn't have a name. It was hard to read. The isolationist view wasn't compelling. But that chapter has been my most routinely applauded chapter when subbing to agents and publishers alike. It's strength alone has gotten me R&Rs when other chapters have fallen flat. If I had gone with consensus board view on that chapter I would not be where I am now, trying to decided and negotiate between two groups that want to purchase my book series.

 

What's offensive to me is that you appear to be saying: "No, you can't ask me about this. Because I said so. And if you've don't understand something, tough luck, deal with it!"

She has every right to ask people to refrain on commenting on something. Your offense stems from a position of privilege that conveys a tone that is hurtful.

 

But you should explain at least a bit of why she can so easily identify their non-binary nature. 

She doesn't need to explain anything. It is her story.

 

getting the same remark multiple times is an indication that something is a stumbling block. 

See my above example. While the board is generally very good at point bring out large problem areas, it is not always a good indicator of what will work in something sub worthy or in terms of delicate cultural issues. We are all still learning, and that is ok.

 

and not just because it means we'd also get to watch kaisa's orgy dance).

I've heard that my rhetoric brings all the queers to the yard, and their pronouns are better than yours. Darn right, they're better than yours. I could teach you...

 

Edited July 9, 2016 by kaisa

[spieles]

7 hours ago, neongrey said:

If I thought you were ill-intentioned, I wouldn't be here to have a conversation with. My point is that you don't need to be ill-intentioned to do harm, and coming down again on the 'no, really, why don't you misgender this character' after I've already made clear that this is really not an appropriate line to take in crit (and about this exact paragraph!) is really more than I'm willing to deal with in this particular context, if only because it carries with it the implicit promise that this isn't going to stop. 

3 hours ago, Mandamon said:

I completely agree that no one here has any malice against any non binary gender.  Like Robinksi, I'm curious.  It's a thing that is becoming more prevalent in society, and so I (as a cis white male) want to know more so as not to give offense.  My original question was from a worldbuilding stance.  Is Savae's nonbinary a normal part of society (and if so why haven't we seen it yet), thus would Lasila (who I am projecting on, being the reader) know the correct term?

I'm curious if anyone else here listened to the 11.22 Writing Excuses podcast "Examining Unconscious Biases, with Shannon Hale." I liked that they took the discussion both ways - asking readers to realize that authors may not realize they're lampshading/pigeonholing/writing-completely-undynamic-characters-of-opposite-gender, and also asking authors - even those who write minority and LGBT characters to realize that it is psychologically normal, even deeply honest, for such biases to come up. Of course, you want to be on the look out for them and learn from them, because challenging those biases makes you a better writer - at the same time that reading about characters that are different from you can challenge the perceptions of any reader.

I found it very positive and uplifting, etc. Basically we all suck and we're flawed LOL, but that's the juice that makes writing so worthwhile. 

Anyway, I agree with Mandamom above that non-binary characters shouldn't necessarily limit a book. The Left Hand of Darkness might be my favorite science fiction novel of all time (it's caught in a duel with the Vorkorsigan series), and that's considered mainstream sci fi/fantasy, so why not more? 

[neongrey]

I'm way behind on my listening but it sounds like a good episode.

The thing is though, when it comes to this particular implicit bias within the context of crit, I am neither prepared to nor capable of being the intro gender studies pinata. nor do I think it appropriate to assume that this should be obligatory. Neither does being a vegetarian obligate one to explain what a vegetable is at every turn-- and someone who continued to insist that being a vegetarian renders one inherently an ambassador of vegetarian-ness beyond that vegetarian's willingness to do so is not behaving appropriately, either. There is a wealth of resources that exist: the fact that an individual chooses not to be one should not be odious.

Neither has the text been silent on this subject prior to this point, or rather: this has very consistently and intentionally been written as normative, as has being disdainful of the species while at the same time not batting an eyelash at the ungendered form-- eg, where Ilea Sirie is overtly contemptuous of Savae's religion, and more subtly contemptuous of both their build and their own species' attitude toward, perhaps, the need for a binder, both she and her student don't budge on the ungendered forms. Honorifics presented use trinary forms, and when Lasila seeks clarification on a set she hasn't used in years, they come in a set of three; similarly we've encountered the trinary form elsewhere (ilia/ilien/ilie).

So, a paragraph where the viewpoint character looks at a person, notates conflicting gender presentation markers (in this case, wide hips and a flat chest), and selects an ungendered form is not exactly out of nowhere textually.

Never mind that this is the sort of thing I consider basic real-world politeness. 

And, like, if someone says something you're doing is causing harm, maybe, you know, believe them?

[Mandamon]

4 hours ago, spieles said:

I'm curious if anyone else here listened to the 11.22 Writing Excuses podcast "Examining Unconscious Biases, with Shannon Hale." I liked that they took the discussion both ways - asking readers to realize that authors may not realize they're lampshading/pigeonholing/writing-completely-undynamic-characters-of-opposite-gender, and also asking authors - even those who write minority and LGBT characters to realize that it is psychologically normal, even deeply honest, for such biases to come up. Of course, you want to be on the look out for them and learn from them, because challenging those biases makes you a better writer - at the same time that reading about characters that are different from you can challenge the perceptions of any reader.

I found it very positive and uplifting, etc. Basically we all suck and we're flawed LOL, but that's the juice that makes writing so worthwhile. 

Anyway, I agree with Mandamom above that non-binary characters shouldn't necessarily limit a book. The Left Hand of Darkness might be my favorite science fiction novel of all time (it's caught in a duel with the Vorkorsigan series), and that's considered mainstream sci fi/fantasy, so why not more? 

Yes!  Listened to this a month or so ago.  I thought it was a terrific episode and outlines some of what we're talking about in this thread.  We need more of this sort of thing in our culture.

[neongrey]

18 hours ago, Robinski said:

On that basis, I won't ask the follow-up that I have on the scene under discussion, but I might PM Kaisa on the subject, if you wouldn't object.

Oh yeah, sorry, this slipped my mind-- by all means, yes. 

gonna have severely intermittent internet connection for the next weekish and mobile only, so I won't be around much... I am sure that everything will be much happier when I am back.

 

[kais]

10 hours ago, spieles said:

 

I'm curious if anyone else here listened to the 11.22 Writing Excuses podcast "Examining Unconscious Biases, with Shannon Hale

 

Speaking of this, there are a neat set of tests you can take on the Harvard website. They've been doing studies on implicit bias for years, and their findings are pretty neat. If you want to see where your biases lay, it's worth the time to take a few of the tests. They're on the long side, about 15 minutes each, but the results are worth it.

https://implicit.harvard.edu/implicit/takeatest.html