Lightweavers might be the Strongest of the 10 Radiant Groups

[TheBlueShifting]

After a brief conversation with Brandon on the matter, I think I might be onto something. This theory revolves our current understanding of Physics so it would be some time in the timeline before we could confirm these theories. However I cannot stop thinking about these ideas and Brandon confirmed a couple of my speculations. But if the skills that Shallan has displayed, along with the words of Pattern, we can extrapolate incredible future abilities. 

Now I could be wrong simply because we don't have an understanding of all the radiant groups as of yet, but here me out about this. So what do we know are Shallans abilities? Well the first and probably the most powerful (that we KNOW of) is the soulcasting. Shallan can separate her cognitive mind from her physical body and interact with shadesmar directly. Once she masters this skill she will be able to use storm light as a bargaining chip to convert matter and form. I'm excited to see what this entails and if there are any real limitations to this power. Like can they only soul cast into one essence at a time? Why do the soulcasters in the Alethkar army look like they have stone for skin? So many questions, but despite this ability, I want to focus on lightweaving itself. i just feel that transformation is "more powerful" than progression.

No the ability to manipulate light is the real power here. Although "Lightweaver" is a deceptive name. Remember how Pattern said that Shallan could manipulate sound as well as light? When I read that the second time through I did a double take. I mean, on the surface these two are vastly different. Light is a collection of photons, where as sound is a vibration in moving particles. The only thing that these two truly share is that the nature of light and sound is determined by the waves and wavelengths that they maintain. 

So how could this be? If Shallan is creating false light barriers, then that should be the extent of her abilities. it would still be amazing and incredibly versatile, but that's it. Including the ability to affect sound waves tells me that there is something far greater going on. If Lightweavers actually shape the wavelength of physical particles and energy waves, then her powers become nearly unlimited. 

First I'll start with sound. If Shallan as a Lightweaver can control waves of vibration to create sounds, then what else could she do (Assuming stormlight were no object for the sake of speculation) Well she could most likely stun people with powerful sound waves. Especially in the water, large enough shock waves can actually stun of kill. Remember a noise is simply a managed vibration in particles including liquids and solids. If you can manipulate shock waves and add enough power, stunning people would not be too far fetched. Even Earthquakes are effectively massive shock waves that travel through the soil. They seem vastly different from a verbal shout, but on the large scale they really operate on the same physical premise. And we now know Shallan uses her powers to effect shock waves, so far just on the small scale. So we can presume that with enough stormlight, Shallan could cause an earthquake. 

Now to the real power. Light manipulation. Often times we get comfortable in our spectrum of light. We have the colors of the rainbow and every shade in between. Shallan had displayed the countless applications of light manipulation in stealth and espionage. However we are not so limited in Physics. Visible Light is a tiny part of the Electromagnetic Spectrum. The levels of light along the spectrum are only different in their wavelength and frequency. This is where things get exciting. First lets go to the large end of the spectrum. So if we have two lightweavers, perhaps standing on the peaks of two different mountains. If the lightweaver can manipulate radio waves, using stormlight to create a variable radio broadcaster and receiver, we would have the perfect way to communicate without anyone being able to listen in. This could be very useful, although span-reads honestly are better at this, so this is less exciting. More likely Lightweavers would become radio hosts in the future as they transmit music and voices into the homes of radio owning families in the future. I can imagine Lightweavers as traveling radio performers sharing their skills as actors of comedians across the radio waves.

But it's the other end of the electromagnetic spectrum that gets really crazy. Imagine how soon x-rays for medical diagnoses could be used when your doctor can literally create x-rays out of thin air? Crime scene investigators will have a local Lightweaver create UV lights to help reconstruct the crime scene and look for trace evidence. But the ultimate form (That Brandon said would be too much to be practical both in needed stormlight and application) would be the control of Gamma Radiation. If this could be harnessed, Lightweavers could literally become mini nukes, or death guns. The biggest downside to making Gamma radiation would be the damage the lightweaver would most likely suffer. So gamma radiation is impractical but its a fun thought experiment. 

So that's the end of my thoughts, I just see people talking about how Lightweavers are cool, but not as powerful as Windrunners. Now you know the possible future of lightweavers! The best part of this whole speculation was how excited Brandon was about my train of thought. I don't know if anyone had brought up this train of thought before. But he was happy to remind me that things will get pretty interesting when Lightweavers discover lasers and start using them in combat. Seriously, he said that, I couldn't ever make this up.

Hope you enjoyed!

[Landis963]

I like the way you think, sir.  Upvote for you!

[Lightspine]

Wait, if Shallan can manipulate any wave-particle dualities then she can also manipulate electrons. Which means... MAGNETO! Jk manipulating electrons would allow you to control waayyyy more than just metal. For example, you could literally tear apart any chemical bonds, turning anything into a mush of atoms. In fact, if you were enough of a chemist, you could reform those bonds into anything you like. You could turn a human into a tree.

[kenod]

I myself am more interested in the limits of Soulcasting, because if they don't really have them they could create antimatter or radioactive materials if they have enough scientific knowledge.

[Rasarr]

Wow. The way you put it, Lightweaving really is overpowered. And the comment about Lightweaver lasers has me pretty excited.  On slightly different note, does Brandon's comment about gamma radiation means the further the Lighweaver goes from visible (or audible?) spectrum, the more Stormlight they have to use to get there? Also, someone with in-depth knowledge of wave physics would absolutely rock as a Lightweaver. *notes the idea down for a possible fanfic* 

For more capabilities of Lightweavers - if I'm understanding this picture correctly (I probably don't), Shallan should also be capable of manipulating heat in some fashion. 

[TheBlueShifting]

9 hours ago, Lightspine said:

Wait, if Shallan can manipulate any wave-particle dualities then she can also manipulate electrons. Which means... MAGNETO! Jk manipulating electrons would allow you to control waayyyy more than just metal. For example, you could literally tear apart any chemical bonds, turning anything into a mush of atoms. In fact, if you were enough of a chemist, you could reform those bonds into anything you like. You could turn a human into a tree.

Actually that might be along the lines of controling tension and cohesion. We don't know much about that yet, but I'm excited to see what Stonewardens can do. I think breaking down cohesion in it's simple form will be similar to using the tensers from the Reckoners series. 

Edited July 4, 2016 by TheBlueShifting
I done spell bad

[TheBlueShifting]

26 minutes ago, Rasarr said:

Wow. The way you put it, Lightweaving really is overpowered. And the comment about Lightweaver lasers has me pretty excited.  On slightly different note, does Brandon's comment about gamma radiation means the further the Lighweaver goes from visible (or audible?) spectrum, the more Stormlight they have to use to get there? Also, someone with in-depth knowledge of wave physics would absolutely rock as a Lightweaver. *notes the idea down for a possible fanfic* 

For more capabilities of Lightweavers - if I'm understanding this picture correctly (I probably don't), Shallan should also be capable of manipulating heat in some fashion. 

Now you are on the right track in some areas (I'm not a particle theorist mind you, but I am a Physics major on my way there) But yes, the thing that makes Gamma Radiation so dangerous is effectively the high levels of energy that it holds. Since energy cannot be created or destroyed, making a gamma ray would require insain amounts of Investiture. Also, heat is just the transfer of energy through a medium. The sun burns your skin because the UV radiation sheds heat into your cells as it contacts your skin. It's part of the natural decay of high-energy matter/photons.

[kenod]

9 hours ago, TheBlueShifting said:

Now you are on the right track in some areas (I'm not a particle theorist mind you, but I am a Physics major on my way there) But yes, the thing that makes Gamma Radiation so dangerous is effectively the high levels of energy that it holds. Since energy cannot be created or destroyed, making a gamma ray would require insain amounts of Investiture. Also, heat is just the transfer of energy through a medium. The sun burns your skin because the UV radiation sheds heat into your cells as it contacts your skin. It's part of the natural decay of high-energy matter/photons.

When heat gets transported using light, doesn't it usually use infrared?

Edited July 4, 2016 by kenod
spelling

[Lightspine]

1 hour ago, kenod said:

When heat gets transported using light, doesn't it usually use infrared?

The wavelength depends on the amount of heat. Room temperature objects glow in the infrared, yes.

[TheBlueShifting]

3 hours ago, kenod said:

When heat gets transported using light, doesn't it usually use infrared?

Infrared is one part of the Electromagnetic spectrum. All Light carries heat. Technically Radio waves, Infrared, visible light, UV light, Gamma Rays, are all the same thing. They differ in wavelength and frequency. Large Wavelength and Low Frequency (Radio Waves) Have very little energy. Short Wavelengths and High Frequency carry a large amount of energy.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electromagnetic_spectrum

[Patrick Star]

I'm still holding out hope for technomancer Stonewards (cohesion+tension=control everything!).

If that's actually possible, I'd put Stonewards as the most powerful Radiant.

[TheBlueShifting]

8 hours ago, Patrick Star said:

I'm still holding out hope for technomancer Stonewards (cohesion+tension=control everything!).

If that's actually possible, I'd put Stonewards as the most powerful Radiant.

You could be very right, I would speculate that they would at least be up to par, but we really need to see what they can do before we can really speculate properly. 

[dvoraen]

Personally, I agree that Illumination is a crazy Surge in terms of what it can do, but there's one point I didn't see covered:

 

Emulating other uses of Investiture.  I'm not able to go into the huge details, but I'll just put it like this.  If Illumination is the Surge of "Light, Sound, and other waveforms", then it stands to reason it could create waveforms that do exactly what other magic can do... provided the Surgebinder knew about them, of course.  Even Shards seem to be a waveform of sorts; Vin doesn't hear Ruin's voice directly, she classifies it as something else: "It was a vibration that washed across her, like an Allomantic pulse."  This, to me, sounds like it's a wave being emitted and interpreted.  If that's true, then one could theoretically create any waveform with Illumination, and go on a rampant magic spree throughout the cosmere.

(And I also think Illumination can detect any magic as well, like Seeker Mistings, have a nice day.)

 

 

 

[Yata]

I think the Magic's emulation is beyond Illumination's ability.

After all if we for hypothesis say that Illumination may be used to create everykind of waveforms (beyond the visible spectrum) with the right amount of Stormlight. It can't still generate effect on other realms....many if not all the magic work with some Cognitive or Spiritual Effect. These are thing you can't emulate with physical waveform.

For example (to stay into Stormlight Archive's magic) you can't change Spiritual Bond with a physical waveform and the Gravity Surge may this. At the same thime you can Soulcast nothing with Waveform...well you may turn things to cinder with microwave but it's not the same thing 

[Argel]

In the scary thought department, Hoid uses Yolish lightweaving...

[TheBlueShifting]

21 minutes ago, Argel said:

In the scary thought department, Hoid uses Yolish lightweaving...

Oh the more I think about Hoid, the more freaked I get. I mean, just imagine what he could do if he wanted to? And for that matter what does he want to do?

[Landis963]

1 hour ago, TheBlueShifting said:

Oh the more I think about Hoid, the more freaked I get. I mean, just imagine what he could do if he wanted to? And for that matter what does he want to do?

Fortunately for everyone involved,  he can't directly harm living humans.  So he can't go on a Mistborn-powered zapping spree.  

[Argel]

9 hours ago, Argel said:

In the scary thought department

Why be scared when you could have nightmares... So, Hoid also seems to have Perfect Pitch, likely from Nalthis (Warbreaker). Could that help with controlling his Lightweaving?

Back to Shallan, maybe Mraize will become the hunted... By the way, Pattern likes to buzz, hum, etc. Seems to tie-in well with your theory.

[soulcastJam]

I'm going to suggest that Shallan does not control light and sound.  I start with that premise just because of how OP it would make her. Rather she controls how things are perceived. This means she can't create a death ray but she can still create illusions. This also plays into her access to the cognitive realm.

[TheBlueShifting]

4 hours ago, soulcastJam said:

I'm going to suggest that Shallan does not control light and sound.  I start with that premise just because of how OP it would make her. Rather she controls how things are perceived. This means she can't create a death ray but she can still create illusions. This also plays into her access to the cognitive realm.

That would be more in line with controlling, and in all honesty I doubt Shallan would ever have enough Stormlight to do most of anything in this post.

 

But Brandon really did mention the lasers...

[+hwiles]

Something I haven't seen mentioned yet:  Vibrations (sound waves) can be very effective at destroying large structures.  in 1831 the Broughton Suspension Bridge (144 ft long) collapsed due to the vibration caused by 74 soldiers marching across with synchronized footsteps.  Modern building codes are designed to prevent this type of failure, but to this day, soldiers around the world are not allowed to march in step across bridges...

Lightweavers would make fantastic saboteurs; by continuously applying relatively low frequency and low magnitude sound waves they could bring down just about any structure they're likely to encounter.  (at least until Roshar develops modern engineering and architectural design methods and rigorously enforces them) ((which is really hard to do without a strong central government)) (((which they don't have)))

[Pathfinder]

A lot of what people have been suggesting that Lightweavers could do with altering waves coincides with a lot of what we see are the abilities of the other orders. What if all of the orders can manipulate waves, and just each order has their specific manifestation of said manipulation?

[Argel]

29 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

What if all of the orders can manipulate waves, and just each order has their specific manifestation of said manipulation?

Isn't Brandon using the fundamental forces of physics in the Roshar magic systems? Or something along those lines?

 

[Massik]

It is possible that it could lead to flight/levitation, sound and light based weapons (sensory as well as projectile, for a lack of better words), as well as manipulation of other physical objects through wavelengths (though some of this would be redundant, as soulcasting could accomplish some of it)

As for balance...  At this point, Shallan needs some kind of reference to base her manifestations on, though that may change as she becomes more powerful.....
I do find myself wondering what the stormlight cost would be for things that require/displace so much energy, though.  Lasers, for instance, should be possible.  But, just like in our world, it should require a great power source for it to do too much damage.  Currently, she is basically as powerful as a movie projector.  

[+hwiles]

1 minute ago, Pathfinder said:

A lot of what people have been suggesting that Lightweavers could do with altering waves coincides with a lot of what we see are the abilities of the other orders. What if all of the orders can manipulate waves, and just each order has their specific manifestation of said manipulation?

Some of the surges, like transformation or transportation, could probably be described as a form of wave manipulation, however, I think there are probably more elegant and simpler explanations.  There are some very simple and understandable controls that Sanderson could apply to Lightweavers to keep them from becoming unfairly powerful or duplicating other orders' powers, for example, he could:

1.  Restrict them to light (IE: electromagnetic radiation) creation/manipulation in the visible spectrum (this could be accomplished by simply pointing out that, if they're manipulating non-visible light, they can't see what they're doing, which could make things very difficult) = no covertly x-raying people to give them cancer and no telekinesis, but still can shoot very powerful laser beams

2.  Make laser creation require a tremendous degree of skill or too much stormlight to be used unless one is outside during a highstorm

3.  Restrict sound/pressure wave creation/manipulation to the audible frequency range = little to no building demolition

4.  Make the amount of stormlight required to produce/manipulate a sound/pressure wave a quadratic/exponential function of the amount of energy released in the wave (linear might actually be enough though...earthquakes involve many orders of magnitude more energy than levitating or gluing things together...)

5.  Require that manipulation of waves above/below a certain amplitude require an impossible degree of control/skill to establish effective limits

6.  Restrict the rate at which a person can discharge stormlight without dying (Szeth's and Kaladin's clothes start to freeze when they burn through light too quickly, so I think this one is already on its way to being established)