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Autonomy!


Green Hoodie Mistborn

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I know we have a confirmed WoB already about this, but I love the subtle name dropping I just noticed in my read through of Volume 1!

About 6 pages into Chapter 3 (frustrating since there are no page #'s!), at the bottom right page, Kenton is talking to the darksider party:

Quote

"...calls the sun the manifestation of the Sand Lord, the source of man's Autonomy and independence." (Emphasis in the original text!)

Just one of those things that is nice world building to someone unaware of the Cosmere, but a great easter egg for those of us looking for tidbits!

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On 6/30/2016 at 4:37 PM, Green Hoodie Mistborn said:

That really depends on how Cosmere aware the reader is when they get there!

Absolutely. With Comic Sans, it doesn't really have the emphasis that it would in book form with capitalized A (and several words are bolded before even on the same page, so that's not special emphasis either)

Essentially you only got it if you all ready knew it.

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On 1/07/2016 at 8:37 AM, Green Hoodie Mistborn said:

That really depends on how Cosmere aware the reader is when they get there!

Yes and no?

If you're looking for in-world gods, that's a very strong hint that Something Is Up with the cultural significance of the sun. You don't necessarily need to be cosmere-aware for that, you just need to be aware of fantasy tropes in general to pick up on the not-so-subtle hints being dropped. Someone who's not big on either of those things probably will find it subtle.

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I've noticed that some people find it a stretch that the Shard's intent is part of the religion on Taldain, but really, that's far more likely than the kind of awareness we've seen on other planets, where the actual names of the vessels have made it into their culture (Tears of Edgli, aons, Atium and Lerasium, etc).

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12 hours ago, Glamdring804 said:

Hoid doesn't like him. Hoid doesn't know everything, but I'm inclined to trust his judgement with this.

Funny, I am inclined to distrust his judgment, at least sometimes. He feels like the kind of person who would hold a grudge for silly reasons. Reliable when it counts, but not necessarily otherwise.

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16 minutes ago, Argent said:

Funny, I am inclined to distrust his judgment, at least sometimes. He feels like the kind of person who would hold a grudge for silly reasons. Reliable when it counts, but not necessarily otherwise.

For example Bavadin didn't take him a drink when promised... And Tanavast saw Hoid sad and decided to buy something to our favorite worldhopper

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Hoid does mention Bavadin in the same breath as Rayse. We already know that he, at least, is/was awful, so Hoid grouping Rayse together with someone he didn't like for an insignificant reason seems foolish. I'd compare it to someone saying, "There are people I have a grudge against--the Starbucks barrista who makes my frappuccino kind of slowly, and the man who violently murdered my whole family." 

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Well, we also know Hoid is not at all a fan of Kelsier, and yet Kelsier's got plenty of fans here....

I wouldn't be surprised if Bavadin ends up one of the big villains of the cosmere, but I do think that people tend to assume too much from the fact that he and Rayse were mentioned at the same time as people Hoid dislikes. It doesn't automatically make the two of them allies or aligned, and it doesn't mean that Hoid's grudges against them are for the same or even similar reasons.

Also, Ruin turned the once honorable Ati into a monster. Even if Bavadin was full on evil when Hoid originally knew him as a mortal, there's nothing to say holding Autonomy hasn't worked its own changes on Bavadin and rendered him considerably different than he was - and I absolutely believe Hoid is capable of holding a grudge against someone who fundamentally is a completely different person from when he originally angered him.

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11 hours ago, ROSHtaFARian2.0 said:

Well, we also know Hoid is not at all a fan of Kelsier, and yet Kelsier's got plenty of fans here....

I wouldn't be surprised if Bavadin ends up one of the big villains of the cosmere, but I do think that people tend to assume too much from the fact that he and Rayse were mentioned at the same time as people Hoid dislikes. It doesn't automatically make the two of them allies or aligned, and it doesn't mean that Hoid's grudges against them are for the same or even similar reasons.

Also, Ruin turned the once honorable Ati into a monster. Even if Bavadin was full on evil when Hoid originally knew him as a mortal, there's nothing to say holding Autonomy hasn't worked its own changes on Bavadin and rendered him considerably different than he was - and I absolutely believe Hoid is capable of holding a grudge against someone who fundamentally is a completely different person from when he originally angered him.

I was under the impression we had a WoB about Autonomy helping Odium kill/Splinter Devotion and Dominion. If so, I think that provides some more basis for the "Bavadin is a jerk" theory.

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21 hours ago, CaptainRyan said:

I was under the impression we had a WoB about Autonomy helping Odium kill/Splinter Devotion and Dominion. If so, I think that provides some more basis for the "Bavadin is a jerk" theory.

We have received no such confirmation.  We simply learned about Autonomy around the same time as SoS came out with its anomalous godmetal, so people  (including myself at the time) jumped to conclusions. 

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21 hours ago, Landis963 said:

We have received no such confirmation.  We simply learned about Autonomy around the same time as SoS came out with its anomalous godmetal, so people  (including myself at the time) jumped to conclusions. 

IIRC, there was a Wob about if Odium had worked with another Shard before...but I may be misremembering or wording was rather vague

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Yeah but again, we have so little actual information still about the Shards that I think people tend to jump to conclusions trying to make the most of what little we do know. There's seven Shards still we know nothing about. Just because two of the ones we do know about were mentioned at the same time as being people Hoid doesn't like, that's a very simplistic basis for assuming that the two of them have anything in common beyond being people Hoid doesn't like.

Yes, considering the nine Shards we do know, out of all of them Autonomy does make the most sense for someone Odium might have worked with in the past - Honor and Cultivation oppose him, Devotion and Dominion were shattered by him, Ruin and Preservation were pretty occupied with each other and Endowment doesn't seem the type.

But with seven more Shards we know nothing about...

Occam's Razor doesn't really apply when the conclusion being reached isn't a result of being the simplest explanation, but rather the only conclusion that can be drawn while still missing half the possible players. As an example, look at Ati again. Once a good man. With the letter talking about Rayse and Bavadin, as in the people rather than the Shards, it makes sense to think they might have similar natures as people and thus make for likely allies. But then throw in seven other people that Hoid might have really liked when they were all mortal, and thus wouldn't make sense to be mentioned in the context the letter mentioned Rayse and Bavadin.....but whose Shards could have altered them as much as Ruin changed Ati, and thus turned one or more of them into an Intent closely aligned with Odium and an even more natural ally for him.

I won't be surprised if Bavadin is as bad as Rayse and Autonomy and Odium have worked together. But when speculating about the workings of a universe as intricate as the cosmere, I think its important we craft our theories and assumptions based on things we actually know, not just assume for a lack of not having enough fodder to speculate in other directions.

tl;dr - We're all so impatient to see the big picture revealed that we're taking Information A + Information B and jumping all the way to Conclusion Z....not because that makes the most sense, but because we don't want to wait for Information C through Y and see how that affects the equation.

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45 minutes ago, ROSHtaFARian2.0 said:

tl;dr - We're all so impatient to see the big picture revealed that we're taking Information A + Information B and jumping all the way to Conclusion Z....not because that makes the most sense, but because we don't want to wait for Information C through Y and see how that affects the equation.

That's kinda the point of debating any theory on here though? So I don't see that as a problem. 

Also just an extra note, of the 7 shards we don't know yet, one "just wants to survive" (so almost certainly not with Odium), another isn't on a planet (could be with Odium but no evidence to say either way), and another unnamed one was already shattered by Odium. So really there are only 4 more Shards that we know absolutely nothing about. 

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Autonomy and Odium may not necessarily be allies anymore even if assuming they worked together in the past. 

Yeah i dig that possibly Bavadin may have been an evil man before but the shard of Autonomy may have changed him, like how Ruin changed Ati. I mean if it was possible for a kind man to turn evil then it's definitely withing the realm of possibility the other way around.

Also Sanderson could've probably just meant other shards who worked with Odium before

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I think there's a reasonable argument that Dominion's splintering might be what Brandon is referring to when he gives that subtle nod in the earlier WoB to Odium and another Shard having worked together, in which case, Autonomy is our prime suspect due to the odd love-hate relationship between shards with directly opposing intents like Preservation and Ruin, Autonomy and Dominion, and Odium and Honour.

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