Let's talk about pronouns!

[kais]

Hey Silk (unsure how to tag), could we maybe get this pinned for a bit? I think it's a discussion that needs to happen.

 

So heeeeeey everyone. Here is your place to discuss all things pronoun related, gender related, maybe a dash of #ownvoices or QUILTBAG dynamics in writing.

This is a safe place for questions, but expect honest answers. Debate is encouraged, but be respectful of those within marginalized communities. 

So, if the use of 'they' or 'it' bugs you, post about why. If you are having problems understanding why non-gendered or non-binary characters would be written, ask it here. If you write these characters and need guidance, post away! If you want to share stories, or offer your own expertise, please do so!

Edited February 1, 2022 by kais
Please do not double post. Use the edit button if you want to add more to a post, please.

[neongrey]

I've got a strong personal preference for they in fiction, myself, (and I think we are in a similar boat genderwise (though I usually just plop into the 'female' box on account of it not being inaccurate, and not wanting to lay claims to a whole social knot that hasn't really been part of my experience)).

I have a few different reasons for it; among other things usage of the singular they is far, far more entrenched in the English language than modern hypercorrection on the subject suggests-- and while I don't believe in calcifying the language, I think it's foolish to dismiss that option as existing at all. The 'they is plural only' crowd is demonstrably grammatically wrong, and has been since they started doing that.

Singular 'you' used to be railed against, too, so whatever. I feel like standardization is important for grammatical forms-- I don't really care how that standardization shakes out, but grammar quite literally is a set of rules so some generally agreed-upon form is important, I think.

But honestly, my preference for it in fiction comes from my general feeling that grammatical constructs generally ought to be more or less invisible, and my general problem with neopronouns in fiction is that there are so many different ones (and the specific set chosen is often fairly arbitrary) that this is basically impossible. For me it is less about familiarity so much as that sheer variety makes them inherently stick out. (well, maybe the variety prevents people from growing familiar with any individual pronoun set, thus they stick out, but I'm not sure about that-- I feel like spivak is basically invisible, and if I was gonna use a neopronoun set that's where I'd go)

Of course, this visibility too is sometimes desirable, both IRL and in fiction. 

So yeah, 'they' is what I go for when left to my own devices; you can see it with Savae in mine, who is ungendered, which I am mostly specifically distinguishing from agender in that it is an n/a response to the question of gender, rather than 'none', though it's a fine enough distinction that I wouldn't object to the agender appelation by someone else. (and this too is why grammatical invisibility is what I'm seeking here; the question of gender is one they are not interested in answering). (The society I am writing too has somewhat of an odd relationship to the nonbinary too-- they have and use a full ungendered pronoun set, which is mostly apparent in the text in the form of ungendered honorifics, and people do not generally bat an eyelash at people who are nonbinary, but in the time between when the society started tightening up on women and the present, it has become somewhat awkward... they almost entirely treat gender as a set of social roles, and since they've solidified the binary, where the nonbinary 'fits' in society is a lot harder to find. And it is a society that is very big on conformity, so, yeah, it can be somewhat awkward in practice. But a lot of things are changing. And I could go on a lot more about its gender relations as a whole, but i kind of am already, heh)

But yeah, the conversation becomes a lot more interesting and a lot more helpful when it is about 'why this particular choice' and not 'why do this at all'.

[leinton]

Lovely to see a nonbinary topic! For my writing, I intend to mix they/them with neopronouns, depending on the individual characters and cultures they interact with. I tend to lean more toward they/them, as those are my pronouns, but I think it's important to also be able to expand the language to include new pronouns.

[Jazzy Kandra]

In history writing and other forms of academic papers, it has long been the tradition to refer to your reader(s) as 'they', or to call a hypothetical person 'they'. While some people use a binary-gendered pronoun, it's not actually proper English in academia (so, if you're doing it for readers or a hypothetical person, don't do so) because you don't know who will be reading your book/article/paper and 'they' has been the 'go-to' since at least the time I was in middle school in the early 2000s.

For characters, though, I think in the end it should depend on that specific character. If it's in character for them to use 'they' as their pronoun, then they ought to do so, if it's in character for them to use 'xe/xer/xem/etc' or some other pronoun of their choosing, then they ought to do so. Use the pronouns that the character would use, know your characters well enough that you know their pronouns.

Leinton, you're not supposed to kill my thunder. xD

Edited June 29, 2016 by Kandra-in-disguise

[leinton]

But Mare... how do you expect me to kill your thunder... WHEN I'M ALREADY HERE?!

Edited June 29, 2016 by leinton

[Wayne Ligon]

I recently finished Alastair Reynold's On The Steel Breeze, and I liked his use of the non-binary pronoun. There is one character, Travertine, who is never described but refereed to using the Keri Hulme  pronouns ve, ver, vis. I'm going to run into this same quandary in my novel or novel series at some point - in my future history, the more technologically advanced worlds have gotten to the point that changing to another fully-functioning sex is an outpatient procedure taking a few weeks of time. I may need something either totally neutral or have ones for each of n number of genders. The Hulme construct might be more to my taste than Singular They, but I'm unsure.

[kais]

1 hour ago, Wayne Ligon said:

 I may need something either totally neutral or have ones for each of n number of genders. The Hulme construct might be more to my taste than Singular They, but I'm unsure.

I've run into this, too. When you start working with more than one non-binary group, the need for pronouns outside 'they' increases exponentially. 

[Silk]

I'll pin for now, as requested, probably only temporarily--only because I don't want to crazy with pinning things (or else there's no point). I'll make sure this thread is in there when I update the list of resources etc. we have going on in the "Welcome to Reading Excuses" thread though, so it will always be easily accessible. (Probably best to just send me a PM to make sure I see stuff like this, btw.)

Glad this discussion is happening though. Thanks for kicking it off!

Edited July 3, 2016 by Silk

[neongrey]

On 6/30/2016 at 3:27 PM, kaisa said:

I've run into this, too. When you start working with more than one non-binary group, the need for pronouns outside 'they' increases exponentially. 

And too, as I saw someone point point out on Twitter the other day (I forget who exactly), it's not like real world nb people all use the same thing, so there's no reason fictional ones have to use the same thing. At least in that sense; I think if you did a lot in proximity the text might get bogged down, but then so does a page full of he/she so it's liable more to be about how well it's written than a pronoun derived problem. 

[kais]

20 hours ago, Silk said:

I'll pin for now, as requested, probably only temporarily--only because I don't want to crazy with pinning things (or else there's no point). I'll make sure this thread is in there when I update the list of resources etc. we have going on in the "Welcome to Reading Excuses" thread though, so it will always be easily accessible. (Probably best to just send me a PM to make sure I see stuff like this, btw.)

Glad this discussion is happening though. Thanks for kicking it off!

Thanks, Silk!

[kais]

Can we play a 'list your favorite neopronouns' game? I'm trying to get a feel for which are preferred, or at least used most often, both in the nonbinary community and beyond. 

[industrialistDragon]

It's pinned, so it's not thread necromancy, right? Have you been following the Merriam-Webster's Dictionary twitter? You should be. I'm posting this here to point out that "neopronouns" are not new. Thon is a neopronoun old enough to be most people's grandparent.  (it's also really fun like "moose" in that it has only one form)

 

[industrialistDragon]

This is a great article on how to be compassionate *and* a grammar stickler while navigating the sometimes confusing and quickly evolving world of neopronouns and the people who use them: 

Radical Copyeditor: Style Guide for Writing about Transgender People .

 

And while I'm adding links to this sticky post, here's Teen Vogue with an awesome FAQ on using the gender neutral pronoun they/them:

All Your Questions About Gender-Neutral Pronouns Answered .

Edited September 3, 2017 by industrialistDragon

[Silk]

Thanks for the additional resources!

[Comatose]

Kameron Hurley does some really cool thing with gender in different cultures in her Worldbreaker Saga (two books out, one forthcoming).  She's got societies with four genders, one with three where masters of slaves choose their slaves' gender, and a character who shifts between genders periodically.  If people are writing books involving different gender systems, I'd definitely recommend it as an example.  

[QuirkyGrandpa]

When my best friend forever and ever transitioned to male we had to think hard on what they wanted to be called. In the end we determined that 'they/them' was better left to its own devices. It got ridiculously confusing, and when they were overused in writing the script became boring. Language is like a living thing. Constantly growing, changing, and expanding. Better to add new words, than remove old ones. Better to add meaning, than detract. With that said, everyone is of course welcome to their own devices.

For my bestie and I, we used 'T' and also 'mamsir' during the in-between stage, but you could also use it for anything really. It's better than 'it' we decide (cause toilets are its too).
Ti (tee) -- Ti jumped. I called tinn (tin), Tiz lips quirked, That belongs to tiggs, Going by tinzself.

We also experimented a bit with O's:
One -- Oune (own) jumped. I called Unn (uhn). Oonz lips quirked, That belongs to Onze. Going by oneself.

Now that she is a he, we use male pronouns. 

In the end, I feel that these things seem to stick only within our own circles, or your inner culture you could say. Everyone has a different idea on how to do this and so it isn't sticking well. Personally, I prefer to use something that flows off the tongue. Language is suppose to be a beautiful thing. Just do what works for you, and don't force it. It has to flow naturally.

 

[industrialistDragon]

Well, it looks like nonbinary.org went down and archive.org doesn't have a cache of the long list anymore, so I went looking for replacements! Here are a couple other lists. They aren't as thorough, but if you're looking for a list to get an idea of what's out there already, or for ideas to put together your own neopronoun, they do the job:

Yes, it's tumblr. But it's a fairly large list. Tumblr Pronouns List

This appears to be what of the old nonbinary.org was managed to be saved. It's not the exhaustive list, but it is at least full of usage guidelines and references: English Neutral Pronouns

I'm a little sad some of the literary neopronouns appear to have gotten lost. No one remembers Laurie J. Marks anymore... 

[Zay Wolfe]

This is something I've been thinking about lately with something I'm currently writing. One of the important secondary characters is an artificial intelligence with a non-specific gender voice and obviously not binary gendered. I've been having trouble referring to it, and I don't like using 'it' since it seems so impersonal. I figured that the main character could project a gender onto it and I could use 'he' but that seems wrong. What do you think is the best way to go about this?

Maybe if I go the projection route, I can fix it by have some self-awareness later on where the use of 'he' is questioned by characters in the story. Any input would be greatly appreciated.

[industrialistDragon]

@Zay Wolfe -- I'd say go with your gut. If it feels wrong to project a gender onto the character, then don't. My advice would be to look at some of the links in this thread and find a neopronoun that works for your character. Try a couple out in a test paragraph and see which one best fits the character and makes sense to you in conjugation. The Radical Copyeditor link and the nonbinary.org link will probably be of most help to you, as they both include usage guidelines and conjugation tables. nonbinary.org also has a bunch of information about gender identities outside the most common ones, and doing a bit of background reading there might help you figure out what your character wants to be called. 

[Mercy Zephyr]

Issue that might come up in a future project - I might be working on a historical fantasy in the future. However, the language used is known; it does not use Romance gendered pronouns. It would be written in English, which does use gendered pronouns. The lack of gender pronouns would actually be a story element, in the sense that nobody would notice that certain characters are not being gendered in sentences. In English, that would seem to require that I use "they" for EVERYONE. I'm not quite sure how to address this concern.

[industrialistDragon]

That is a tough question! There are ways to write in English without using pronouns. John Scalzi's books "Lock In" and "Head On" both avoid using pronouns for the protagonist. They're also written in first person, and that does make it easier. It's still possible to do that in third, but it's more difficult.  Ann Leckie's "Ancillary Justice" uses one pronoun for all genders and seems like it might be tackling similar problems to the one you describe. Looking at ways other authors have gotten around similar issues can be helpful in figuring out how to handle your own.

Otherwise, then, you could try using one or more neopronouns. I know I've read books where characters used a neutral pronoun when they didn't know the gender of the person they were speaking about, and once it became known, they switched to using whatever pronoun was appropriate. There are links upthread with lists of different types of neopronouns and how they're used which might be helpful to you if you haven't had much exposure to them before. The singular "they" would also work if you didn't want to use a new kind of pronoun.  As long as the pronoun is easy to track back to the person it references, I feel like readers can handle a fair amount of complexity or uncertainty. 

[Robinski]

Ooh, I've never posted here... I hope this question has not been asked and answered (I don't see it, although I've looked through various of the links above).

I'm looking for a term of formal address, the equivalent of Sir / Madam. I'm using xe and xir for this side character. Maybe Xir is the obvious choice, but then it's the same as the replacement for the standard accusative ('her'), so I didn't want to use that. Would Xadam, becoming Xa'am, be weird and/or out of step in some way I'm too uneducated to see?

Opinions welcomed! Thank you.

[industrialistDragon]

This is a really good question! English doesn't have a gender neutral formal address word or general honorific that I know of. The equivalent for Mr/Mrs/Ms is Mx, but I can't think of an equivalent to Sir. I think most of the books I've read have made them up. I remember one that just called everyone Sir, and I've seen ones that only used people's titles (like Captain, General, Professor, Doctor etc, which are all gender-neutral by default). One book I distinctly remember used hom or homme. I think another used ser? (though that has Game of Thrones connotations now). Wiki says Ind (for individual) is one. There's always the option of reformulating the sentences to simply not use ANY terms like that. So "Excuse me, sir!" becomes just "Excuse me!" or "Excuse me, please!" English is at least nice in that we don't have to gender anything to be polite if we don't want to. 

Looking to other languages, several have gender neutral particles, like das for German, that you might be able to use as a starting point. For that matter, the German formal pronoun, Sie, is gender neutral. Japanese has san, which is also used for any gender, if I recall, but is closer to a Mr/Ms/Mx analog I think. @kais?  Any ideas from the other languages you're familiar with?

 

 @shatteredsmooth?  Is there one that I'm missing?

[Robinski]

Yay, I'm so pleased I asked a half-way sensible question! Exceedingly helpful reply, thank you ID.

In writing the scene that I'm working on, I sort of went out of my way to put myself in the position of needing such a term as a challenge. Actually, M-o-t-h is addressing a corporal in the NAF National Guard, so 'Corporal' is most certainly the correct and conveniently gender-neutral response, but I want to learn 'my' new word now, dang-it! 

p.s. I happened to hover over your profile preview, and notice that you joined on this very date in 2017. Happy anniversary!!

[kais]

There's some precedent for using xie/xir in mixtures in SFF. I have seen 'xiefriend' for girlfriend/boyfriend and X. in the place of Mr. or Ms. 

You can of course, avoid the honorific issue by giving the nonbinary person a title, like Dr., but we have Mx. for that, too. Personally I adore the xie-additions to normal words, but I don't speak for everyone in the community, either.