06/27/16 - Waning, ch. 6

[neongrey]

Previously: The city of Ilidria's living goddess is dead, and seventeen-year-old Lasila Vahendra's brother has been called away to help defend a senator who might end the war that has been draining the city for nearly eighty years. When attending upon the fallen goddess, a mysterious priestess named Maranthe invites Lasila to attend the rebirth of the goddess. With opportunities for her future disintegrating around her, Lasila seizes upon this as a chance to make connections that have been otherwise lost to her. She avails herself of Maranthe's offer of a dress, and has one made that she hopes will ensure people remember her, despite the odd requirement of masks at the celebration.

Last time: Varinen departs, under awkward, miserable circumstances, leaving Lasila alone with the cat he obtained for her. We are introduced* to the human Savae Alevrin, who checks their mail and works on a paid commission.

*Is actually going to appear sooner, in revisions

This time: The escort that Lasila requested Varinen arrange for her arrives, and he is both charming and thoroughly unpleasant beneath that charm. Lasila does her best to conceal her nerves.

Next time: Savae returns, and works some glass. Lasila listens to senatorial politics.

Specific stuff this time: Lasila's starting to get nervous here in the back half of the chapter but she's actively attempting to hide it in POV narration. If you can tell that easily, that's fine; it's also fine if it's not very overt.

Eshrin-- just general impressions right now. I'll withold my intent with him for now because I just want to see how he comes off.

Here's where I actually have a place for English-language honorifics, so I use them.

Edited June 27, 2016 by neongrey

[Robinski]

I enjoyed this submission right from the first line, which I love. I was a loner myself for a long time, and can really relate to this; also I love to hear about people writing letters, I think that ups the classiness quotient of your story; third, dreaming in columns and numbers is something that I very much recognise as an engineer! But it's not like I'm not on board already.

I think some of the phrasing could be tidied up. Mostly in the dialogue, which I did not always follow the logic of. The verbal sparring between Lasila and Eshrin is well done but, perhaps because I was lagging behind a little on the logical of it, when she gets to the point of deducing that he's an chull, I felt like I'd missed something.

 

I like that the machinations and plotting appear to be starting here, or at least more overtly visible to the reader, and we can start wondering about peoples' motives, like the priestess and Eshrin (is he lying?) - maybe his brother too.

 

Good job. I'm still having fun.

 

<R>

 

--------------------------------

 

"A little after noon on the day of (??????), Lasila was"

 

"Thus, I would not advise the use of the deferential." - I would suggest 'advise against using the deferential'.

 

"her cheekbones came out far less sharp, her chin wider, forehead narrowed" - I'm perfectly happy to believe that Nalira works wonders with cream and powder, but the problems start when you describe the specifics. These words, to me, make it sound like Lasila still has sharp cheekbones (ok, if you like that sort of thing), a wide chin and a narrow forehead. I other words, she wounds funny-looking to me, because I don't have a starting point. I would leave out the specifics and keep it general. I'm happy to accept some telling here.

 

I would not normally quibble about this, but you are going into detail on every step of this process. Lasila was told to 'strip to her slip' originally, but puts the new slip on her 'bare skin'. Seems to be a step missing. (I'm not a prude, so this stuff does not phase me at all, but it's impossible not to feel voyeuristic during this section!)

 

Is comfortable not an overstatement rather than a 'strong word', that phrasing sounds odd to me.

 

"She was so bland about the notion" - I would say the word is blasé, or maybe understated.

 

I love the phrase 'precise disarray', but less keen on the repetition of 'precise' shortly after.

 

"Regardless, Lasila, of house Vahendra." - I think 'House Vahendra', as the name, should be capitalised as it is the name of that particular house. Also, the grammar of her follow-up doesn't seem to fit.

 

"Why should I wish to break things that are rightfully mine?" - Again, I don't really understand this reply, which does not seem to fit the context.

 

"There's much to indulge in, this evening, and just as much" - indulge in this evening, and just... - don't se the point of the first comma.

[neongrey]

4 hours ago, Robinski said:

I think some of the phrasing could be tidied up. Mostly in the dialogue, which I did not always follow the logic of. The verbal sparring between Lasila and Eshrin is well done but, perhaps because I was lagging behind a little on the logical of it, when she gets to the point of deducing that he's an chull, I felt like I'd missed something.

This, I think, will always be at least a little tricky; it's a culture where a direct yes or no answer is considered rude(which is itself one of very few things about this that I can directly map to a real world source), and generally being very oblique is the ideal in polite society. Lasila's somewhat gifted at following circumlocution quickly.

What's going on here is Eshrin's insulting where she lives, insulting her brother, trying to back her into conversational corners where she would need to admit ignorance, etc, and doing so very, very politely. The only directly rude thing he's done is address her by given name alone. She's opting not to take offense to any of this, aside from getting a bit huffy when he suggests her home is in a bad part of town.

4 hours ago, Robinski said:

"her cheekbones came out far less sharp, her chin wider, forehead narrowed" - I'm perfectly happy to believe that Nalira works wonders with cream and powder, but the problems start when you describe the specifics. These words, to me, make it sound like Lasila still has sharp cheekbones (ok, if you like that sort of thing), a wide chin and a narrow forehead. I other words, she wounds funny-looking to me, because I don't have a starting point. I would leave out the specifics and keep it general. I'm happy to accept some telling here.

This I think is tricky, because it is one of those things where if you're familiar what's being done it is more or less clear-- this is how you contour a heart-shaped face, narrowing the forehead, widening the chin, etc. And I like doing that sort of thing. I'll see if there's a way to smoothe it out.

4 hours ago, Robinski said:

"Why should I wish to break things that are rightfully mine?" - Again, I don't really understand this reply, which does not seem to fit the context.

Oh... that one should stand out; she is saying roundabout that she wouldn't break hearts, not because it's wrong or because it doesn't occur to her that this is a done thing, but because if she holds someone's heart such that she could break it, she owns it, and she wouldn't want to break her own property.

But again, she's being very oblique.

5 hours ago, Robinski said:

I would not normally quibble about this, but you are going into detail on every step of this process. Lasila was told to 'strip to her slip' originally, but puts the new slip on her 'bare skin'. Seems to be a step missing. (I'm not a prude, so this stuff does not phase me at all, but it's impossible not to feel voyeuristic during this section!)

Yeah, it jumps right from doing her makeup to changing; I can probably smoothe that out.

 

Thanks!

[Robinski]

2 hours ago, neongrey said:

This, I think, will always be at least a little tricky; it's a culture where a direct yes or no answer is considered rude (which is itself one of very few things about this that I can directly map to a real world source), and generally being very oblique is the ideal in polite society. Lasila's somewhat gifted at following circumlocution quickly. What's going on here is Eshrin's insulting where she lives, insulting her brother, trying to back her into conversational corners where she would need to admit ignorance, etc, and doing so very, very politely. The only directly rude thing he's done is address her by given name alone. She's opting not to take offense to any of this, aside from getting a bit huffy when he suggests her home is in a bad part of town. - I think that's fine, but the bottom line is that the reader needs to understand enough to be able to follow the story or they're not going to make it to the end. I did see some of those things going passed, but could maybe have done with a tiny bit of internal analysis / realisation.

This I think is tricky, because it is one of those things where if you're familiar what's being done it is more or less clear-- this is how you contour a heart-shaped face, narrowing the forehead, widening the chin, etc. And I like doing that sort of thing. I'll see if there's a way to smoothe it out. - Again, it's fine that you're familiar with it, but most readers probably aren't and I'm presuming you don't want to lose them.

Oh... that one should stand out; she is saying roundabout that she wouldn't break hearts, not because it's wrong or because it doesn't occur to her that this is a done thing, but because if she holds someone's heart such that she could break it, she owns it, and she wouldn't want to break her own property. But again, she's being very oblique. - Just to underscore, if she's too oblique, the reader won't follow what's going on, and could become disenchanted.

Yeah, it jumps right from doing her makeup to changing; I can probably smooth that out. - Cool!

 

[neongrey]

Yeah, in this, it's not that I'm brushing you off, but that certain aspects of the culture mean the language usage is intentional and mandatory, so attacking these particular problems requires a different approach rather than just making it more transparent. More Savae might be the answer here too, because they have far less patience for this sort of thing.

I will keep an eye on it though, thanks.

[spieles]

 I think this chapter works well. My preference would be to cut the clothing scene down by 25%, but I think you have good elements there. I enjoyed the back and forth with Eshrin though. 

p. 1 the back and forth with Nalira over the use of deferential confused me a bit at first. What was the deferential that Lasila used? My first instinct when Lasila asks her name was to say "always cut small talk and introductions in stories!" but I think here it has a purpose so you might lose the dialogue about where to try on the clothes - that is a boring detail - and clearly focus on the issue of titles. The two details mixed together was distracting. Also, the reader assumes Lasila is going to guide Nalira to the room with a mirror. That being said, the title thing is good - it ups the anxiety and tension.

p. 2 I wanted to skim the discussion of the comfort level of the corset. It's very overdone in regency and pretty much any book where corsets exist. There's a slight sensuality with the talk of her fitting into the cups, so you might just leave that detail and then go right to the dress.

p. 2 Things get more interesting when Nalira informs Lasila that her dress is magical and should she want to get up to any frisky business... it will button itself back up. My one comment here is that I would almost like you to expand on this. I'm very curious about sexual mores in this society. Especially considering this an event at a temple. And this might be a good opportunity to bring them up.

p. 2 "Lasila stepped into the dress..." You lose me again in this paragraph. It's a lot of blocking and generic detail.

p. 2 "Updo" is a very modern word that pulled me out of the story. I'd just cut this clause - the rest of your description does a better job of describing her hairstyle.

p. 3 "Shoes could wait..." Lost me again. I don't care about shoes and handbag.

p. 3. You have the habit of saying something generically then describing it more specifically in the next line. (I also do this.) For example in the two paragraphs below you repeat that she's reading in two different ways and that she's waiting in multiple different ways. Better to get right to the good details:

Nalira took her leave after that, leaving Lasila to wait alone in the silent house. She took up one of the books Varinen left behind, hoping for some guide to meditation rather than sword-poetry. Something that might steady her nerves, perhaps. Instead, she found herself holding Lasila took up/distracted herself with a collection of short plays. Odd; she'd never known her brother to be much for theatre. There was probably a lot she didn't know about him, to be fair.

Either way, it was something to do while she waited. The first play in the book wasn't very good, all told; maybe it held up better on the stage. [...]

p. 4 her exchange with Eshrin really speed up the pace. good.

p. 4 missing word "the [] danged from her fingers"

p. 4 I like it when she thinks "the area where she lived was fine.'

p. 4 I find it very amusing that you put Ehrin in guyliner. It's making me take him less seriously but maybe that's okay. 

p. 5 regarding the seamstress, Eshrin says "We wouldn't want her to do that would we?" and I have no idea what he's talking about.

p. 6 The tension started to slow here a bit. You might cut the following (suggestions of course)

"You do enjoy when people make embarrassing admissions, don't you, Master Linphori?" said Lasila. Unbidden, the corner of her mouth rose. "Of course I am. I suppose you must not be. This must be dreadfully old hat for you."

 

Lasila didn't miss how Eshrin structured the formal token apology to absolve himself of any potential wrongdoing. Not that there was any; it was strictly a formality, of course. But there was a message there, beyond just informing her that there would, in fact, be food. Among other things. The condescension was a red herring, of course. She could have taken offense at how boldly he said it to her, but there would be no gain.

 

Well, she had been promised an escort who didn't talk much about swords. Varinen hadn't exactly committed to providing her anything else beyond that. And he hadn't even mentioned swords once so far. Eshrin had just turned out to be an chull, was all. If she ever saw Varinen alive again, she'd need to give him a piece of her mind. That she'd want an escort who wasn't an chull should have been implied, after all. Pah. This would have to be addressed before that, even. She'd have to make it the subject of her first letter to him.

So I'm VERY curious for the temple event. I think this flows well - I just think it could flow even better.

[kais]

Every time I see a new submission from you, I think will this be the orgy? Please tell me this is the orgy!

Overall

GAH! SO CLOSE TO THE ORGY, YET SO FAR!

I can see Lasila's nervousness easily, so that part is fine. Her escort is intriguing, and I am hoping to learn more about him. Generally, the narrative flowed well. The dressing scene had a few drag areas, but the carriage ride was great. Seems like Robinski and Spieles echo the same sentiment.

As I go

- page 1: I like the gentle reprimand of Nalira. Shows the naivety of Lasila, too, that she didn't pick up on the 'simple' suggestion.

- page 2: they're going to start with the face? If the dress goes on over the head, this seems like not a good idea

- page 3: hahahaha....rayon as 'tree silk'.... I just, wood science.... 

- page 3: wow, she's really botching the honorifics today, isn't she?

- page 5: trousers on women attract the wrong sort of attention, eh? Fascinating.

[Robinski]

1 hour ago, kaisa said:

Every time I see a new submission from you, I think will this be the orgy? Please tell me this is the orgy!

I feel like you're building this up too much, and that it will only be a disappointment :oD   I however, am merely anticipating quietly in the sure and certain knowledge that NeonGrey will not drop the ball here!

 

[neongrey]

12 hours ago, spieles said:

p. 2 Things get more interesting when Nalira informs Lasila that her dress is magical and should she want to get up to any frisky business... it will button itself back up. My one comment here is that I would almost like you to expand on this. I'm very curious about sexual mores in this society. Especially considering this an event at a temple. And this might be a good opportunity to bring them up.

By and large this is something where I'm generally opting to deliver information via the POV rather than direct exposition-- Lasila's reactions to people around her, I think, are a good gauge for what's normative, and the structure of marriage contracts is intended to be a fairly major subplot. We'll see though-- there may be some details I do want to work in that aren't covered this way. This is something I'd like to look at more when the whole of the piece is laid out, rather than piecemeal like this.

12 hours ago, spieles said:

 p. 3. You have the habit of saying something generically then describing it more specifically in the next line. (I also do this.) For example in the two paragraphs below you repeat that she's reading in two different ways and that she's waiting in multiple different ways. Better to get right to the good details:

Yeah, it is one of those things, thanks for calling out when I do that, lol.

12 hours ago, spieles said:

 p. 4 missing word "the [] danged from her fingers"

Yeesh, I do that too, thanks, ahah.

12 hours ago, spieles said:

 p. 5 regarding the seamstress, Eshrin says "We wouldn't want her to do that would we?" and I have no idea what he's talking about

 

Yeah, I can spruce that line up; he's checking out her butt as he does it; it's 'wouldn't want her to put you in pants'.

6 hours ago, kaisa said:

Every time I see a new submission from you, I think will this be the orgy? Please tell me this is the orgy!

I almost hate to tell you that there's nothing more than some kissing and some feeling-up going on on camera... (I suspect you will enjoy the feeling-up lol)

on camera, anyway, lol.

The party's a somewhat lengthy sequence.

6 hours ago, kaisa said:

- page 2: they're going to start with the face? If the dress goes on over the head, this seems like not a good idea

Lasila's POV will always gloss this over (though she does step into the dress for this reason) because it's taken as such a given but no aelin clothing goes on over the head-- the wings get in the way. So, the face just gets done first to avoid having to deal with any powder fallout.

6 hours ago, kaisa said:

- page 3: hahahaha....rayon as 'tree silk'.... I just, wood science.... 

The problem of course is that rayon has a certain of-our-world sound to the name (a little too close to nylon, if I had to guess). Viscose might do, of course, but here I like the vague suggestion that Lasila really doesn't know much at all about the material.

6 hours ago, kaisa said:

- page 5: trousers on women attract the wrong sort of attention, eh? Fascinating.

Well, if you call people who like butts the wrong sort. :v

[Mandamon]

Notes while reading:

Pg1: Old tutor for what?  Finance?

Pg1: Sadra, etc.:  This is a much better introduction to the honorifics.  I might actually remember these.

Pg2: "Lera Sirie enchanded my gown"
--Interesting.  I think this is the first direct hint of magic.

Pg 2: "measuring the gap between seam and wings."
I think I need a little more information about how the dress fits around the wings.  Do they have extra holes, of seal around then or something? 

Pg3: "Either way, it was something to do while she waited."
--Not sure what she's waiting for
--Ah.  The escort. 

Pg 3:  Hmm.  Don't need to know about every article of clothing he's wearing.

pg 6: "You do enjoy when people make embarrassing admissions, don't you, Master Linphori?"
--I like this.  It's a good way of showing his character.

Overall, I thought this was one of the best chapters yet.  After we get past all the clothing scenes, the back and forth between Lasila and Eshrin definitely made it.  I think where I've been bored previously is when Lasila is by herself, doing some task.  When she plays off other characters, she comes across a lot better.

Re. Lasila being nervous:
I could tell there was some nervousness, but she was also using it to her advantage, I thought, playing dumb so Eshrin would spill more information and think her more naive than she is.

re. Eshrin:
He's a good character.  Yes, he's arrogant, but he makes a good foil for Lasila (much better than her brother) and lets her snark come out.  

From the comments above, you make it seem like Eshrin should read as directly rude or insulting, rather than political posturing.  I read it more as a GoT/WoT game of houses type thing, where they're each trying to get information without giving it, but Lasila is at a disadvantage.  I think your explanation of the difference in culture might be the root of this.  I'm assuming things based on our culture, because I don't have a good knowledge of this one.

[rdpulfer]

- "A mistake made in private is no mistake at all." I really like this line. 

- Regarding her enchanted gown - I'm picking up after missing a couple chapters, but are these enchantments common? I imagine they are if they are easy to do. I know this is clearly a fantasy setting, but I don't recall seeing much magic in the every day life in the chapters I read, so it might be something to consider spotlighting a little more often.

- Love Lasila and Eshrin's interaction, and Lasila's witty responses.

- I like the last line especially. 

 

[neongrey]

On 6/30/2016 at 11:02 AM, Mandamon said:

Pg2: "Lera Sirie enchanded my gown"
--Interesting.  I think this is the first direct hint of magic.

Well, it's the first that Lasila directly calls out as unusual. It drives the society to the point where it's a very intentional decision that neither of the POV characters find much of it unusual. I don't like directly conveying information if there's any other possible option; it's boring. I'd rather get and give this through, among other things, presenting what the POV character considers normative and what they do or do not think about-- forced-air heating is something Lasila doesn't think about more than you or I would, even if it's literal wizards doing it, the chimes they use to speak to each other with at the temple are expected and their function known, they're not using wheels on carriages and rather they float-- it's normative, and it says more about the society that it is than if the narration sidetracked to explain what everything is, a practice which I find to be a blight on the genre.

In 5, Savae is an archmage in the fullness of their power-- the magic they work is nearly effortless and without explanation because they don't need to think about how it works or why it works or any of that, not in this scenario. They knock a girl on her butt from ten, fifteen feet away with only a word, and they work silver with their bare fingers. And it's intentional too that the first time we see a POV character using magic, it's like this-- someone who knows exactly what they're doing, who isn't slowing down or stopping.

So with the dress-- yeah, it's called out because it's rare enough that Lasila would never have expected it, because it's very expensive--it's high-effort specialist work. So it isn't ordinary at all.

And I'm sorry if I picked your line callout to go off about this, it's really not so much about what you said exactly, but I have about a million feelings about the way information is conveyed in fiction and the ways it can be done without the reader noticing that they've had information conveyed to them and sometimes these thoughts sort of spill everywhere, hahaha.

This sort of thing too is why I like to frame things in terms of what I intended to convey or my suppositions of what the writer is intending to convey, because that above all else is what is going to be what defines how we approach critique-- the desired end result is, more or less, for the text to convey accurately what the writer wanted (once it is out in the wild of course authorial intent matters less but the disconnect between intention and what is actually conveyed too is an interesting point of analysis) so quite often I am just talking aloud in responses, in the interests of reconciling what I am conveying with what I want it to to...

Sorry, I think about this sort of thing a lot lol 

On 6/30/2016 at 11:02 AM, Mandamon said:

Pg 2: "measuring the gap between seam and wings."
I think I need a little more information about how the dress fits around the wings.  Do they have extra holes, of seal around then or something? 

This too is one of those things that is primarily visible in the cracks, but Lasila probably could stand to pick it up more when she's eyeballing what people are wearing-- but it's mostly low backs. Slits in the back of tops are gauche, a suggestion that the article of clothing wasn't really designed for their particular anatomy.

On 6/30/2016 at 11:02 AM, Mandamon said:

From the comments above, you make it seem like Eshrin should read as directly rude or insulting, rather than political posturing.  I read it more as a GoT/WoT game of houses type thing, where they're each trying to get information without giving it, but Lasila is at a disadvantage.  I think your explanation of the difference in culture might be the root of this.  I'm assuming things based on our culture, because I don't have a good knowledge of this one.

Directly, no; overtly he's being perfectly polite (but addressing her by given name alone at the end is rude, in a he-knows-he-can-get-away-with-it sort of way) but also the context here is that he's a senator's brother and she's pretty stuck in the middle classes; he's asking her things she wouldn't be expected to know, he's telling her things she doesn't know in fairly condescending ways, and the bit about her brother is definitely a blink-and-you'll-miss-it attempted needle into the relationship between them. He's behaving in a way that Lasila could choose to take offense to but that it would speak less of her if she did. And here I'm just summarizing for the below:

At least, this is Lasila's surface-level reading, and it's good for what it is. It's not, I think, possible at this point to determine Eshrin's other motivation here is, not yet. He's got reason to believe the situation he's in is unusual, and he's fishing to find out about how she reacts.

Mostly when I asked about Eshrin, I wanted to make sure something wasn't being conveyed about him, and since no one's mentioned it, I think I'm good there.

Culturally -- by and large Lasila's providing what's normal and expected. You probably know more than you think, but here's where going at the work piecemeal probably doesn't help. But circumlocution is one of the nine great social graces: the direct answer is always going to be the less polite one.

7 hours ago, rdpulfer said:

- Regarding her enchanted gown - I'm picking up after missing a couple chapters, but are these enchantments common? I imagine they are if they are easy to do. I know this is clearly a fantasy setting, but I don't recall seeing much magic in the every day life in the chapters I read, so it might be something to consider spotlighting a little more often.

I go into it more above, but I think that would convey the opposite of what I'm going for here. It'd be sort of like spotlighting people using a light switch.

But we've got more overt magic coming, all right, and some of the everyday stuff being used in unusual ways.

Thanks, both of you!

Edited July 3, 2016 by neongrey
more rambling