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I searched and was not able to find anything in the forum in regards to this 'hidden order', but please point me to it if i missed it.  

In WoR it says that only nine of the ten orders as one would not abandon their arms and flee.  Does this mean that there is an order of KR that has been roaming Roshar since the recreance? If yes my bet is the skybreakers, but I may be misinterpreting this quote. 

“This act of great villainy went beyond the impudence which had hitherto been ascribed to the orders; as the fighting was particularly intense at this time, many attributed this act to a sense of inherent betrayal; and after they withdrew, about two thousand made assault upon them, destroying much of the membership; but this was only nine of the ten, as one said they would not abandon their arms and flee, but instead entertained great subterfuge at the expense of the other nine. ”

— Words of Radiance, Chapter 38, page 20

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I have always read this as referring to the Skybreakers but I do not know if there is "official" confirmation of this.

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I think it would be funny if it was the Stonewards. Their Herald was the only one to not forsake his oath after all. But what makes it funny is the thought of Stonewards employing a 'great subterfuge.' I picture a bunch of huge guys in full plate tip toeing away in single file at night lol.

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13 minutes ago, TwelfthOfSnackTime said:

I think it would be funny if it was the Stonewards. Their Herald was the only one to not forsake his oath after all. But what makes it funny is the thought of Stonewards employing a 'great subterfuge.' I picture a bunch of huge guys in full plate tip toeing away in single file at night lol.

With Cat! Like! Tread! Upon our prey we steal!  

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1 hour ago, TwelfthOfSnackTime said:

I think it would be funny if it was the Stonewards. Their Herald was the only one to not forsake his oath after all. But what makes it funny is the thought of Stonewards employing a 'great subterfuge.' I picture a bunch of huge guys in full plate tip toeing away in single file at night lol.

Nope. Dalinar's vision of the Recreance showed the Stonewards and Windrunners abandoning oaths. 

I'm pretty sure Pattern and Wyndle confirm that Lightweavers and Edgedancers broke their oaths too. 

Skybreakers seem the most likely. If not them, then maybe Truthwatchers. They were always secretive, and we don't know anything about them yet. 

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1 hour ago, thegatorgirl00 said:

Nope. Dalinar's vision of the Recreance showed the Stonewards and Windrunners abandoning oaths. 

I'm pretty sure Pattern and Wyndle confirm that Lightweavers and Edgedancers broke their oaths too. 

Skybreakers seem the most likely. If not them, then maybe Truthwatchers. They were always secretive, and we don't know anything about them yet. 

Good points all around and the Truthwatchers are my second guess after Skybreakers for that exact reason.

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Skybreakers seems logical. They have been active the longest, that we know of. But are we sure that all Skybreakers are Radiants? Szeth is, but what about the others? It is said that Helaran sought them out, but he was no Radiant.

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8 hours ago, Axies the Survivor said:

Skybreakers seems logical. They have been active the longest, that we know of. But are we sure that all Skybreakers are Radiants? Szeth is, but what about the others? It is said that Helaran sought them out, but he was no Radiant.

I don't believe Szeth is a radiant. I don't remember him bonding a spren, and he has Nightblood now instead. I think he'll probably become one, but I don't remember him being one already.

Given that Nale is on a crazy rampage against proto-radiants I'm going to guess that the current "Skybreakers" are not actually radiants.

Wyndle quote:

Quote

"Why do they care so much about you? There's something about those weapons they carry..."

Sounds to me like they're dead blades, but I guess it could go either way.

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I just finished a re-read of "the Way of Kings" and "Words of Radiance" and it made me wonder if Helaran was bonded to a Highspren (Skybreaker spren). I always wondered why Helaran didn't just kill his father. Helaran obviously hated his father and knew his father was treating the rest of the family horribly and he even thought that his father killed his mother... and yet he did nothing. Perhaps because Helaran could not get the proper legal stuff squared away? Perhaps Helaran informed the highprince, the highprince sent his bastard to investigate and when the investigation dead-ended there was nothing a Skybreaker like Helaran could do? 

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34 minutes ago, CaptainRyan said:

I just finished a re-read of "the Way of Kings" and "Words of Radiance" and it made me wonder if Helaran was bonded to a Highspren (Skybreaker spren). I always wondered why Helaran didn't just kill his father. Helaran obviously hated his father and knew his father was treating the rest of the family horribly and he even thought that his father killed his mother... and yet he did nothing. Perhaps because Helaran could not get the proper legal stuff squared away? Perhaps Helaran informed the highprince, the highprince sent his bastard to investigate and when the investigation dead-ended there was nothing a Skybreaker like Helaran could do? 

If that were the case then he would have had to have said his second ideal (or equivalent among Skybreakers), and then broken his oath for his blade to remain when he died. I don't see him breaking his oath right as he dies.

Also, he was wearing shardplate, and we have yet to see a proto-radiant with shardplate. I think there would have been mention of it glowing if it were live shardplate.

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42 minutes ago, AndrolGenhald said:

If that were the case then he would have had to have said his second ideal (or equivalent among Skybreakers), and then broken his oath for his blade to remain when he died. I don't see him breaking his oath right as he dies.

Also, he was wearing shardplate, and we have yet to see a proto-radiant with shardplate. I think there would have been mention of it glowing if it were live shardplate.

I am a little cloudy on what happens to "true" Radiants when they die. Back before the Recreance, way back in the Shadow Days, if a Radiant died in battle what happened to their blade? Or, to make it more modern, what happens to Syl if Kaladin dies? Perhaps Helaran's spren simply "died" when he did?

I know this is a long-shot theory/idea but I cannot help but wonder that there was more to Helaran than Brandon has shown us.

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7 minutes ago, CaptainRyan said:

I am a little cloudy on what happens to "true" Radiants when they die. Back before the Recreance, way back in the Shadow Days, if a Radiant died in battle what happened to their blade? Or, to make it more modern, what happens to Syl if Kaladin dies? Perhaps Helaran's spren simply "died" when he did?

I know this is a long-shot theory/idea but I cannot help but wonder that there was more to Helaran than Brandon has shown us.

I had thought that they lived on in the CR, but I'm not 100%. I believe Kaladin and Syl have a conversation about it after he saves Elhokar, and there have probably been related WoBs.

Edit: Now that I think about it I'm even less sure, but either way, I would think there'd be mention of glowing. I suppose it's possible that he's a Radiant using dead shardplate and that's masking the glow (Szeth mentions he can't both use shardplate and surgebind, is this because the shardplate is dead or because of the Honorblade?)

Edited by AndrolGenhald
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When a Radiant dies without break his Oaths. The Spren simply returns to the Cognitive Realm as the bonds fade. It's a quite harmless process for the Spren. And probably after little time the Spren may begin to search another potential Radiant.

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5 minutes ago, Yata said:

When a Radiant dies without break his Oaths. The Spren simply returns to the Cognitive Realm as the bonds fade. It's a quite harmless process for the Spren. And probably after little time the Spren may begin to search another potential Radiant.

Not to be pushy but is there a WoB on this? IIRC, we do not have an in-book example.

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1 hour ago, AndrolGenhald said:

If that were the case then he would have had to have said his second ideal (or equivalent among Skybreakers), and then broken his oath for his blade to remain when he died. I don't see him breaking his oath right as he dies.

Also, he was wearing shardplate, and we have yet to see a proto-radiant with shardplate. I think there would have been mention of it glowing if it were live shardplate.

Technically we have seen a proto radiant wearing shardplate. Dalinar. And it did glow when it was commented on how he can seemingly get more out of the plate than others can. Then again that is a generic shardplate wielded by a proto radiant. Still have no idea how actual shardplate works with an actual radiant. 

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1 minute ago, Pathfinder said:

Technically we have seen a proto radiant wearing shardplate. Dalinar. And it did glow when it was commented on how he can seemingly get more out of the plate than others can. Then again that is a generic shardplate wielded by a proto radiant. Still have no idea how actual shardplate works with an actual radiant. 

Forgot about that, nice. Based on Dalinar's visions (iirc) I'd expect them to be glowing with symbols.

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22 minutes ago, CaptainRyan said:

Not to be pushy but is there a WoB on this? IIRC, we do not have an in-book example.

Sorry man, I forgot to paste the reference :( .... I saw someone else fixes my error.

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1 minute ago, Yata said:

Sorry man, I forgot to paste the reference :( .... I saw someone else fixes my error.

No worries @Yata, I know you are a very reliable source! I asked mainly so that I could have something to reference in the future haha.

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It's unlikely Helaran bonded a spren however he might have had one following him. I say this because the blade he wielded would have been screaming in his head every time he wielded it if he had sworn the first ideal. But I digress, I think a skybreaker was sent to to Devar estate, the messenger who told Shollan she didn't understand the meaning of lies. I think his true purpose was to Judge high Lord Devar and found him not guilty and Helaran refused the assessment them sent word to the high prince to try to get a second more favorable outcome.

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4 hours ago, SamsonSeaBorn said:

It's unlikely Helaran bonded a spren however he might have had one following him. I say this because the blade he wielded would have been screaming in his head every time he wielded it if he had sworn the first ideal. But I digress, I think a skybreaker was sent to to Devar estate, the messenger who told Shollan she didn't understand the meaning of lies. I think his true purpose was to Judge high Lord Devar and found him not guilty and Helaran refused the assessment them sent word to the high prince to try to get a second more favorable outcome.

I very much doubt that Wit is a Skybreaker. Besides, from his conversation with Shallan, it sounds like he had other business in Jah Keved and only took the message to Lord Devar because he was passing by.

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Ah lol I suppose I might have got over excited, hahaha. This is why I've been listening to readings of Warbreaker and Elantris. Need to unwind from Roshar, it's just so damnations easy to get lost in the mystery though. >.> doesn't really help. 

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14 hours ago, AndrolGenhald said:

I very much doubt that Wit is a Skybreaker

I think "Hoid" would be more accurate -- pretty sure he was not playing the role of Wit in that scene / with those people.

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I think it would kind of make sense if the one Order that didn't break its oaths was the Bondsmiths. 

Think about it: we know that they were always extremely few in number (no more than 2 or 3 at a time), so it would be easy for 2 people to disappear in the greater realm of Roshar. We also know/speculate that Bondsmiths can only bond with extremely powerful/unique spren, so the rate of "repopulation" of Bondsmiths would be extremely low, even in three thousand years, and especially when at least one massive spren (the Stormfather) hates humanity and doesn't want to grant them surges anymore. If the Bondsmiths of yore broke their oaths, wouldn't there be fewer great spren around? Or maybe legends of great spren who no longer exist on Roshar? We could have been introduced to that concept by the Collector who is attempting to document all spren on Roshar, but instead we encounter unique but unthinking spren, like spren who weren't betrayed but whose Bond was nonetheless dissolved by the death of a Radiant.....

This is pure speculation, but if the Bondsmiths had broken their oaths like the rest, wouldn't their unique spren have "died" with their broken oaths? So spren like the Stormfather, the Nightwatcher, and that giant one in the sea wouldn't exist in the physical realm. 

Actually, now that I think about it, what if Cusicesh the Protector WAS a spren for a Bondsmith who broke his/her oaths? It certainly seems unthinking and unable to hold a rational form. 

So I think that it was probably the Bondsmiths, who have a thing for creating and maintaining BONDS, who didn't break their bonded oaths with their spren. We just don't know about it because 1) the spren are unique and few and far between, which makes for a smaller chance of creating a Bondsmith; 2) these Bondsmith spren seem to have some sentience and actually can refuse to grant a bond so long as the right words are avoided--it seems entirely possible that the original Bondsmiths simply died out and the unique spren were so appalled at the death of so many of their cousins that they refused to grant more Bonds to potential Bondsmiths, who are recorded as being very few anyway. 

Just something to think about. I don't know if this has been debunked yet. 

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