Orlok Tsubodai Posted July 9, 2016 Report Share Posted July 9, 2016 I'm going to be controversial. Again. No doubt I do myself no favours, but I think it bears discussion. I would advocate we cease discussion in the Senate doc entirely. It's publicly viewable, and so information can't be hidden there, but it functions in such a manner as to limit engagement from those of us who are not senators with things said in the doc. I can see no harm in holding the conversation that would occur in the doc on thread, and advantages present in both keeping track of when comments are made chronologically and with regards to facilitating responses. Clearly, Senate votes need to be posted there, but even the explanations for the votes can be made here without any harm. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ecthelion III Posted July 9, 2016 Report Share Posted July 9, 2016 If you need to comment on anything said in the Senate document, just quote it and post in the thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mailliw73 Posted July 9, 2016 Report Share Posted July 9, 2016 (edited) 3 minutes ago, OrlokTsubodai said: I'm going to be controversial. Again. No doubt I do myself no favours, but I think it bears discussion. I would advocate we cease discussion in the Senate doc entirely. It's publicly viewable, and so information can't be hidden there, but it functions in such a manner as to limit engagement from those of us who are not senators with things said in the doc. I can see no harm in holding the conversation that would occur in the doc on thread, and advantages present in both keeping track of when comments are made chronologically and with regards to facilitating responses. Clearly, Senate votes need to be posted there, but even the explanations for the votes can be made here without any harm. Interesting. I'm not actually opposed to this at all, as it's hard enough not commenting on it. It does kinda undercut the purpose of the doc though, and would make it pointless for Mek to have added that to the rules. I guess it doesn't really matter what I think about this anyways, only the Senators. I'm going to also throw my real vote on Elodin, since I'm not sure how much I'll be able to be on before rollover. What does the Senate think of the second place scan suggestion? Edited July 9, 2016 by Mailliw73 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cloudjumper Posted July 9, 2016 Report Share Posted July 9, 2016 (edited) WARNING: Be prepared for some weak arguments Cloudjumper (3): Eramit, Lime, Elenion Conquestor (2): Bard, Ecthelion Eramit (1): Lime Lime (1): Meta Aman (1): El What if you scanned me instead of lynching me? I'm a duelist. If you scan me, then I'd be cleared, right? Then you can see if I'm actually an eliminator. Next turn you can lynch me if I'm an eliminator. Or I guess you can lynch me now and risk losing a villager. Quote Cloudjumper's latset post seemed suspicious to me: you said you voted for Bard because you didnt thought clearly but it seemed like you took Bard on your aim at the moment the game started and tryed to conceal it with the excuse of not wanting to get lynched but at this point of the game he just poked anyone and wasnt focused on you and there was no reason to worry. Until you will give a good explanation to your voted I will remain with mine. Does my explanation from before count? If not, then unfortunately I do not have a good explanation. On 7/8/2016 at 10:40 PM, Mailliw73 said: How is he abusing the rules? Well I originally thought that the current senate must mostly not be converts because if they were, they would already have won, but then I read the rules again. But then what if the senate scanned a person before electing him/her to the senate? Then that way they could at least make sure that the person is innocent before they are elected. We could just recall everyone and place two scanned people on the senate: the duelist and the Kesegan monk. Then they could just protect themselves and the Cultists won't be able to win. Edit: I guess then if there's only two people on the Senate, the Derithi could just convert them. Edited July 9, 2016 by cloudjumper Oops 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orlok Tsubodai Posted July 9, 2016 Report Share Posted July 9, 2016 2 minutes ago, Ecthelion III said: If you need to comment on anything said in the Senate document, just quote it and post in the thread. Which is an awful lot more inconvenient than having it available here, and still doesn't address the advantages we derive from knowing the timings of comments made - which we do not if they are made in the doc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amanuensis Posted July 9, 2016 Report Share Posted July 9, 2016 (edited) 42 minutes ago, OrlokTsubodai said: I'm going to be controversial. Again. No doubt I do myself no favours, but I think it bears discussion. I would advocate we cease discussion in the Senate doc entirely. It's publicly viewable, and so information can't be hidden there, but it functions in such a manner as to limit engagement from those of us who are not senators with things said in the doc. I can see no harm in holding the conversation that would occur in the doc on thread, and advantages present in both keeping track of when comments are made chronologically and with regards to facilitating responses. Clearly, Senate votes need to be posted there, but even the explanations for the votes can be made here without any harm. 39 minutes ago, Mailliw73 said: Interesting. I'm not actually opposed to this at all, as it's hard enough not commenting on it. It does kinda undercut the purpose of the doc though, and would make it pointless for Mek to have added that to the rules. I guess it doesn't really matter what I think about this anyways, only the Senators. I am not opposed. I would continue to use the doc to organize my thoughts into tables and take notes, though, in addition to placing my votes. 39 minutes ago, Mailliw73 said: What does the Senate think of the second place scan suggestion? I'm not sure who brought it up first, but I know I supported the plan in the doc already. Ultimately I agree. 38 minutes ago, cloudjumper said: What if you scanned me instead of lynching me? I'm a duelist. If you scan me, then I'd be cleared, right? Then you can see if I'm actually an eliminator. Next turn you can lynch me if I'm an eliminator. Or I guess you can lynch me now and risk losing a villager. Does my explanation from before count? If not, then unfortunately I do not have a good explanation. Well I originally thought that the current senate must mostly not be converts because if they were, they would already have won, but then I read the rules again. But then what if the senate scanned a person before electing him/her to the senate? Then that way they could at least make sure that the person is innocent before they are elected. We could just recall everyone and place two scanned people on the senate: the duelist and the Kesegan monk. Then they could just protect themselves and the Cultists won't be able to win. I kinda wish you didn't claim Duelist, but I guess it's not the end of the world. If we scan you and it's true then we can make sure the Kesegan Monk protects you from the Derethi kill while you protect one of the Senators. I personally don't find you very suspicious (hence why I haven't voted for you quite yet), but think your alignment is worth knowing considering how many people have talked about you. I still doubt the Derethi or the Jeskeri have much control of the Senate right now. At most I'd guess one from either faction. Since the Derethi win con has nothing to do with controlling the senate, I really don't mind leaving one of them in there, at least until we have more information to work with. The Jeskeri are going to want to free up slots in the Senate so if we're lucky they'll end up killing the Derethi in pursuit of that goal. As for the Jeskeri, as I've stated before, I doubt they began with more than one member in there, so as long as we keep the Senate filled, that shouldn't be an issue. I brought this up earlier, and suggested that if we ever appoint another player to the Senate, it needs to be after they are scanned. There is a weakness to the plan, however. As I brought up in the doc while talking to Elbereth about the danger of public scans, doing so is bound to draw the attention of the Derethi / Jeskeri kills. While placing a Duelist in the Senate is a good idea (albeit slightly game breaking) here's a danger I see with your idea, even if it is highly unlikely. Let's say the Senate votes to scan a Jeskeri, and the player who receives the result happens to be a Jeskeri as well. That Jeskeri can then lie about the results to convince us to elect them. So in order for that to work the entire Senate as it is now needs to be scanned first to prevent that from happening. Given that I suspect a majority of the current Senate are Dulas, I believe it's something worth discussing. I don't think it's the best plan of attack, let alone the most fun, and depends a lot on luck / whether or not we have enough protective roles in the game to cover the Senators / that the protective roles don't get picked off by the eliminators. Edited July 9, 2016 by Amanuensis Sentence variety Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elenion Posted July 9, 2016 Report Share Posted July 9, 2016 (edited) 51 minutes ago, cloudjumper said: But then what if the senate scanned a person before electing him/her to the senate? Then that way they could at least make sure that the person is innocent before they are elected. We could just recall everyone and place two scanned people on the senate: the duelist and the Kesegan monk. Then they could just protect themselves and the Cultists won't be able to win. Your plan sounds good until you look at the probabilities. At the start, chances are that one, no more than two of the senators are eliminators. However, by placing only two or three people on the senate, a single eliminator that passes the vetting process (with the help of his friends, or course) has a much higher influence on the senate than now, when he only commands 20% of the vote. Besides, how would we know if the proposed people are actually defenders or just puppets propped up by the Derethi or Cultists? By scan? In my opinion that's a waste of scans; an inside man can lie about the results. My opinion is that the scans are better used for identifying eliminators outside of the senate (although I'm not asking you to assume that I'm a villager; I'll prove that in time). Edit: In addition, now everyone knows Cloudjumper's (claimed) role. Assuming he is a duelist, he will most likely be killed in the next few nights. If he is not a duelist, he will be killed by lynch. I'd personally hate to waste our senate investigation on a practically-dead character. Edited July 9, 2016 by Elenion Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amanuensis Posted July 9, 2016 Report Share Posted July 9, 2016 (edited) 39 minutes ago, Elenion said: Edit: In addition, now everyone knows Cloudjumper's (claimed) role. Assuming he is a duelist, he will most likely be killed in the next few nights. If he is not a duelist, he will be killed by lynch. I'd personally hate to waste our senate investigation on a practically-dead character. I don't necessarily agree. Derethi can't kill until tonight, and if we scan cloud now, we can confirm for the anonymous Kesegan Monk that he should the target of his protection so that cloud can protect one of us. So, I'm probably going to vote that we scan cloud and lynch either Elodin or Conq. Haven't decided which yet. Also, for everyone's reference, this is how long we have left in the turn. Edited July 9, 2016 by Amanuensis 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ecthelion III Posted July 9, 2016 Report Share Posted July 9, 2016 14 minutes ago, Amanuensis said: I don't necessarily agree. Derethi can't kill until tonight, and if we scan cloud now, we can confirm for the anonymous Kesegan Monk that he should the target of his protection so that cloud can protect one of us. So, I'm probably going to vote that we scan cloud and lynch either Elodin or Conq. Haven't decided which yet. Also, for everyone's reference, this is how long we have left in the turn. I'm not sure how much we can trust the Senate. If cloudjumper turns out to be, say, a Jeskeri duelist, and the senator it gets revealed to is a Jeskeri, he could say cloud is a village duelist and that would lock down the monk for the rest of the game. Other than that it's a good plan. My lynch vote still stands on Conqueror. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Straw Posted July 9, 2016 Report Share Posted July 9, 2016 Hello! I don't think we have enough info for the Lynch so I will tie the vote. Conquestor. LG23 is silent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amanuensis Posted July 9, 2016 Report Share Posted July 9, 2016 (edited) 18 minutes ago, Ecthelion III said: I'm not sure how much we can trust the Senate. If cloudjumper turns out to be, say, a Jeskeri duelist, and the senator it gets revealed to is a Jeskeri, he could say cloud is a village duelist and that would lock down the monk for the rest of the game. Other than that it's a good plan. My lynch vote still stands on Conqueror. I kinda mentioned that earlier, I think. If there is only one Jeskeri on the Senate right now, that means the chances of that occurring is 20%. Not very high, but if cloud really is Jeskeri then I suppose those are better odds than a 100% lynch. One solution to that problem is to investigate the Senator who receives the result next cycle to confirm its authenticity. Also, I wouldn't necessarily argue that the monk gets locked down the rest of the game. It would just turn into an IKYK, where the Monk might risk protecting someone else or the Derethi / Jeskeri might risk attacking a potentially protected player. Which, from my experience, can be a good thing, as it forces the eliminators to second guess themselves. Before I decide if I want to vote for either @Conquestor or @Master Elodin, I would like to see one of them respond to defend themselves. I'm leaning towards Elodin because we'd gain more information since he's actually posted so far (particularly in the shenanigans targeting Bard), but I also am not a fan of lurkers, especially when the lurker in question rarely does it. If neither of them get on in time and no one else is willing to vote for Elodin, then I will likely place my vote on Conquestor to break the tie. Edited July 9, 2016 by Amanuensis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ecthelion III Posted July 9, 2016 Report Share Posted July 9, 2016 (edited) Voting against Elodin would be counterproductive since there are already two other people with 3 votes on them. Conquestor is actually likely to get lynched this turn. Also remember to vote in the Senate. You could tip the scales toward or against cloudjumper if you want, since it looks like he's not going to get scanned this cycle. Edited July 10, 2016 by Ecthelion III Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaimeleecee Posted July 10, 2016 Report Share Posted July 10, 2016 Okay phew, some thoughts before I disappear again. This has been intesne so far! Lots of votes been tossed around, but hats what makes it SE right okay I don't have a ton of time especially after reading through everything. I'm sorry it's just bad luck that this started on a weekend! I'm going to vote for Elodin from what I have skimmed (admittedly this is not my most thought out vote I just haven't had the time) his responses have seemed somewhat suspicious and I have to say it's mostly gut. I'm probably not going to be able to post again after this so I'm sorry! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ecthelion III Posted July 10, 2016 Report Share Posted July 10, 2016 6 minutes ago, jaimeleecee said: Okay phew, some thoughts before I disappear again. This has been intesne so far! Lots of votes been tossed around, but hats what makes it SE right okay I don't have a ton of time especially after reading through everything. I'm sorry it's just bad luck that this started on a weekend! I'm going to vote for Elodin from what I have skimmed (admittedly this is not my most thought out vote I just haven't had the time) his responses have seemed somewhat suspicious and I have to say it's mostly gut. I'm probably not going to be able to post again after this so I'm sorry! @jaimeleecee Remember to vote in the senate doc! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cloudjumper Posted July 10, 2016 Report Share Posted July 10, 2016 (edited) I have nothing against Conq, I just don't want to die. Conquestor (6): Bard, Straw, Cloud, Aman, Elenion, Ecthelion Cloudjumper (2): Eramit, Lime Aman (1): El Elodin (1): Jaime Elenion (1): Meta Edited July 10, 2016 by cloudjumper I'll do a running tally Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amanuensis Posted July 10, 2016 Report Share Posted July 10, 2016 51 minutes ago, Ecthelion III said: Voting against Elodin would be counterproductive since there are already two other people with 3 votes on them. Conquestor is actually likely to get lynched this turn. Also remember to vote in the Senate. You could tip the scales toward or against cloudjumper if you want, since it looks like he's not going to get scanned this cycle. I don't think counterproductive is the right word. We still got two hours left in the turn to discuss an alternate target. That being said, I have to go out and celebrate my roommates birthday now, so I'm going to place my vote on Conquestor as well. I don't have the time to debate who would be a better target for the lynch, so I'd rather make sure an inactive dies rather than a potential village Duelist. Since cloud has the second number of votes, I honestly believe it would be best if he were the one targeted for Investigation. But that's up for my fellow senators to decide. See you all on the other side of turnover. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elenion Posted July 10, 2016 Report Share Posted July 10, 2016 Since Cloudjumper could be a valuable asset, I'm shifting my vote to Conquestor. However, the distrust level is still high. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Master Elodin Posted July 10, 2016 Report Share Posted July 10, 2016 (edited) Look, Aman, I voted on him and then removed it after others jumped onto my vote. How the storms does suspicion lie on me in that case? Edit: And yes Jaime, things certainly have been intesne. Edited July 10, 2016 by Master Elodin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elenion Posted July 10, 2016 Report Share Posted July 10, 2016 4 minutes ago, Master Elodin said: Look, Aman, I voted on him and then removed it after others jumped onto my vote. How the storms does suspicion lie on me in that case? Can you provide us senators an alternate lynch target? I see you haven't used your lynching vote yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mckeedee123 Posted July 10, 2016 Author Report Share Posted July 10, 2016 (edited) 9 hours ago, Ecthelion III said: Also, @Mckeedee123, if the Senate decides to scan one of the Senators, the result cannot be revealed to the scanned Senator, right? The senator to receive the results will be decided randomly. It can be revealed to the senator scanned. The senate doc was actually intended to simplify the game, since it would reduce the amount of votes flying around the thread. If you don't want it to be used to discussion, that's fine, but I don't suppose that I'll officially ban it. Also: The cycle is over. The new thread will be up shortly. Nevermind Edited July 10, 2016 by Mckeedee123 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Metacognition Posted July 10, 2016 Report Share Posted July 10, 2016 (edited) Okay, I'm back. Sorry I've been gone for so long. Today was much busier than expected. And I'm still not done! I've got about 3 different tasks I need to get done going as we speak! First of all I'm just not seeing why everyone is so assured of Bard's innocence; especially people like Aman and Elenion from the Senate Doc. I'm still highly suspicious of him. That bandwagon just feels incredibly orchestrated. We had a discussion about bandwagons in LG22, where we got an Eliminator on the first day. One of the things that I said in there was that, if a bandwagon tends to form quickly and early, it can sometimes be indicative of us barking up the wrong tree. And now, we have exactly that happening right here. Then, every single vote on Bard just vanishes and people start pushing the idea that Bard is innocent. This just seems a little too coordinated for my tastes and I'm still not convinced just because Bard said that he was willing to be scanned. That could be a simple delaying tactic so that they can survive at least another turn. For every Eliminator that claims that they would like to be scanned and that we don't lynch them because of such, that makes it that much more likely that we're going to hit a Villager instead. As far as the vote between Cloudjumper and Conquestor goes, I'd rather lynch neither. Lynching an inactive tells us very little in comparison to lynching someone who has been active. This just feels like a waste of a turn in that right, but it is what it is. And I'd rather not kill a Duelist this early on when, even if he is an Eliminator, we can suggest who he should defend and if that player dies, we'll be able to tell that he's lying. So in either case, he either has to work for/with us or reveal himself. If I were to go after anyone, it would likely be Elenion or Bard. I'm not buying Bard's claim that he did that just out of paranoia and a lot of what Elenion was saying in the Senate Doc makes me question his motives. There was that bit about "Gambling and lost" with his vote on Seonid earlier and he seemed a little too concerned with getting recalled out of the Senate, IMO. No one had even brought up who should be recalled yet and he was already concerned about it. Why? If he's a villager, wouldn't not being in the Senate make it even less likely that he would be a target? To me, it almost sounds like he knows that he won't be attacked and is more worried about the loss of power. I'll hopefully have more once I get done with everything else I need to take care of! EDIT: Forgot to take my vote off of Lime. Edited July 10, 2016 by Metacognition Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mailliw73 Posted July 10, 2016 Report Share Posted July 10, 2016 @Mckeedee123 don't we have another half hour? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mckeedee123 Posted July 10, 2016 Author Report Share Posted July 10, 2016 Just now, Mailliw73 said: @Mckeedee123 don't we have another half hour? Yep. I switched time zones, and that screwed me up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mailliw73 Posted July 10, 2016 Report Share Posted July 10, 2016 Just now, Mckeedee123 said: Yep. I switched time zones, and that screwed me up. Ah okay. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ecthelion III Posted July 10, 2016 Report Share Posted July 10, 2016 4 minutes ago, Metacognition said: Okay, I'm back. Sorry I've been gone for so long. Today was much busier than expected. And I'm still not done! I've got about 3 different tasks I need to get done going as we speak! First of all I'm just not seeing why everyone is so assured of Bard's innocence; especially people like Aman and Elenion from the Senate Doc. I'm still highly suspicious of him. That bandwagon just feels incredibly orchestrated. We had a discussion about bandwagons in LG22, where we got an Eliminator on the first day. One of the things that I said in there was that, if a bandwagon tends to form quickly and early, it can sometimes be indicative of us barking up the wrong tree. And now, we have exactly that happening right here. Then, every single vote on Bard just vanishes and people start pushing the idea that Bard is innocent. This just seems a little too coordinated for my tastes and I'm still not convinced just because Bard said that he was willing to be scanned. That could be a simple delaying tactic so that they can survive at least another turn. For every Eliminator that claims that they would like to be scanned and that we don't lynch them because of such, that makes it that much more likely that we're going to hit a Villager instead. As far as the vote between Cloudjumper and Conquestor goes, I'd rather lynch neither. Lynching an inactive tells us very little in comparison to lynching someone who has been active. This just feels like a waste of a turn in that right, but it is what it is. And I'd rather not kill a Duelist this early on when, even if he is an Eliminator, we can suggest who he should defend and if that player dies, we'll be able to tell that he's lying. So in either case, he either has to work for/with us or reveal himself. If I were to go after anyone, it would likely be Elenion or Bard. I'm not buying Bard's claim that he did that just out of paranoia and a lot of what Elenion was saying in the Senate Doc makes me question his motives. There was that bit about "Gambling and lost" with his vote on Seonid earlier and he seemed a little too concerned with getting recalled out of the Senate, IMO. No one had even brought up who should be recalled yet and he was already concerned about it. Why? If he's a villager, wouldn't not being in the Senate make it even less likely that he would be a target? To me, it almost sounds like he knows that he won't be attacked and is more worried about the loss of power. I'll hopefully have more once I get done with everything else I need to take care of! EDIT: Forgot to take my vote off of Lime. I agree, I'm not 100% sure of Bard's innocence, he did nothing to make me trust him even more than in the beginning. But he's sitting firmly in the middle of the suspiciousness spectrum, and there are some users who are further up... [cough]Cloudjumper[cough]. I'm really doubting his duelist claim for the following reasons: 1) It's not an easy role to prove 2) The villagers would suffer a lot if they lynched their own duelist, so he's making them second-guess themselves 3) Would a real duelist come out that early? They're the #1 target for the cultists Elenion also seems a little fishy and a lot agressive. I'll pardon the lurker Conquestor, we can get him another time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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