Shardic Sentience

[Comatose]

But the original mistwraiths all used to be human. When they get their spikes, they aren't becoming the people they got the spikes from, they're becoming the people they would have been. That's why the first generation maintained all their memories of being Terris Feruchemists when they became Kandra.

I'm still iffy about Sel. All the people on Scadrial have a spark of Preservation because creating sentient life is not part of Ruin's shard intent. If both Aona and Skai can create people, why is Aona limited to one particular race while Skai gets the rest of the world? Keep in mind, we're not just talking about Fjordell and Arelon. Opelon contains numerous other countries as well. I guess, if Aona is Devotion (which I strongly suspect. I just spoke with Kchan to clarify. Brandon said we were close with compassion and love, and said it was ironic when someone chose Devotion for Skai. Kchan also pointed out the Seons, which I believe are splinters of Aona's power, are very devoted), it might make sense that she "devoted" herself to one group of people in particular I suppose. But then, we have to ask ourselves why skai provided the sentience to the rest of the world. Preservation, I assume, wanted something to preserve. Endowment simply wanted to endow, and if I'm right, Aona wanted something to be devoted to (or love, or serve, or whatever she is, we know it's something like that). Also, the only Skai magic system we have seen (since we don't know where Shuden's dance comes from) is the bone twisting, which I think can be done to anyone, and has more of a hemalurgy feel to it. Since Ruin seems to enter people with the spikes, I feel like it should be the same for Skai. The people with Shardic Sentience seem to come by their shard magic naturally, if they do (ie: breath, allomancy, the shaod). The Dakhor monks are changed in a similar way that the inquisitors are changed and twisted, and both involve sacrifice.

So, I'm still wondering, if Aona only provided sentience for Arelon and its relatives, where did the rest of the world get its sentience? And why?

[Emeralis00]

@Comatose, Ah yes. I had forgotten about the original Kandra, but that doesn't change the fact that humans on Scadrial are only sentient because Preservation gave a part of itself to make them sentient.

I wasn't sure about Sel to begin with, my statement about the Shaod was only conjecture. Though, if Aona is Devotion, both Aona and Skai could have cooperated to make sentience, but Aona gave more of herself to the Arelish so that she was devoted to a specific group of people.

[happyman]

Well, we know there are more than two ways to access the Dor. Chay-shan is one of them. Elantris is another. The Dahkor monks are yet a third. Maybe every culture has an affinity for the Dor which comes from their creation?

Let me put it another way. Given that both the Dahkor Monks and the Elantrians can access the Dor, I suspect that the Dor is a common power source (or whatever) between the two shards that created the world there, much like Ruin and Preservation shared metal as a focus. Thus any creatures they created would have an affinity for the Dor from both aspects of their creation. The method of accessing the Dor would presumably be determined genetically, both physical and spiritual, just like on Scandrial. Just like on Scandrial, some people are closer to one shard than another and so they tend to exhibit traits and powers more tightly bound to one or the other. Given how Elantris is powered, this would very naturally lead to people associating with lands where there powers are best expressed.

Just a possibility, though.

[Zas678]

This all leads me to ask an interesting question. Does it cost a Shard anything to have a magic user? So does Preservation grow a little more weak when a mistborn is born compared to a misting? Or does it not cost any power?

[Emeralis00]

This all leads me to ask an interesting question. Does it cost a Shard anything to have a magic user? So does Preservation grow a little more weak when a mistborn is born compared to a misting? Or does it not cost any power?

I would think no if it is according to the principle of intent.

[Comatose]

Well, we know there are more than two ways to access the Dor. Chay-shan is one of them. Elantris is another. The Dahkor monks are yet a third. Maybe every culture has an affinity for the Dor which comes from their creation?

Let me put it another way. Given that both the Dahkor Monks and the Elantrians can access the Dor, I suspect that the Dor is a common power source (or whatever) between the two shards that created the world there, much like Ruin and Preservation shared metal as a focus. Thus any creatures they created would have an affinity for the Dor from both aspects of their creation. The method of accessing the Dor would presumably be determined genetically, both physical and spiritual, just like on Scandrial. Just like on Scandrial, some people are closer to one shard than another and so they tend to exhibit traits and powers more tightly bound to one or the other. Given how Elantris is powered, this would very naturally lead to people associating with lands where there powers are best expressed.

Just a possibility, though.

Of course! I was getting to focused. If you look at it in terms of Dor, this makes so much more sense. The Shaod only effects the people of Arelon because Elantris is IN Arelon. Duh, right? Elantris is only a means of accessing the power that is already there, in the Dor. I was equating the Shaod too much with returning, forgetting that it is not necessarily the shard choosing people, but a construct (or the shard through the construct, who knows which).

So, basically, whichever shard is responsible for the Dor probably provided the human race on Sel with sentience. I'm not sure Skai and Aona are both responsible for the Dor, but if they are, I suppose they would both be responsible for the sentience of humans. I know the Dakhor monks use the Dor, but remember that Hemalurgists use allomancy and feruchemy, just in a twisted way. The Dakhor bone twisting thing (With sacrifices and such) just seems too similar to Hemalurgy for my mind not to draw a connection between them. So, what if I say this. Aona provided humans with Sentience, and powers the Dor, and it's related powers. The different magic systems (the shaod and clay shan) are different cultures ways of interpreting and using the power that is there. Now, since Elantris is slightly more spectacular than Clay Shan, and more random than Dakhor (the Dakhor choose their monks and change them, the Shaod strikes randomly) I'm willing to bet there's some shard stuff going on there. However, while the Arelish (?) people are the only ones with access to the Shaod, they are not the only ones with access to the Dor, thus Aonoa could still have instilled shardic sentience in the rest of the world. Now the Dakhor, who I believe are using Skai's magic system, I think twist Aona's power, much in the same way that Inquisitors twist the power of Preservation.

Wow, that just made things make a whole lot of sense to me. Or am I jsut crazy? I admit it, that was written in a rush of inspiration, and I might look back in five minutes and think, "what was I thinking?" Nonetheless, I'm posting it anyways, and going to supper. Tell me what you think.

[Chaos]

Actually, it seems to me that if you give up your breath, you do lose things. You lose part of yourself. Given that Endowment can apparently give part of himself and keep the rest, why shouldn't we assume that people do the same kind of thing, instinctively? From their Shard's Intent, they give as much of themselves as they can, but they instinctively hold back that little bit that actually makes them sentient. I'd be willing to bet that people who have lost their breath are actually a little bit stupider than before.

You do lose things, but you don't become the equivalent of a mistwraith.

I most definitely agree that every sentient being holds a tiny Splinter of the Shard that created them. I gather from other posts that it is agreed upon that Shards exist in the Spiritual Realm. Brandon has always said that it is a person's Spiritual DNA that allows them to use a particular magic system. All of this being the case, it would make sense that this Spiritual DNA is simply a Splinter. They could even all be unique, like real DNA: after all, the Shards are pieces of Adonalsium, but they are worlds apart.

As to the concept that these Splinters create sentience, I am more conflicted. To me, it has always seemed that without a host, the Shards themselves lack sentience. Thus, wouldn't it be the people giving sentience to the Shards, and not the other way around?

I do not think we can say that sentient beings hold Splinters, as Brandon says we haven't seen Splinters on Scadrial. I mean, I agree with what you are saying, but it's imprecise to call them "Splinters".

But the original mistwraiths all used to be human. When they get their spikes, they aren't becoming the people they got the spikes from, they're becoming the people they would have been. That's why the first generation maintained all their memories of being Terris Feruchemists when they became Kandra.

I don't think the later generations of kandra became the humans they once did. There's not much evidence for that, at least. Mistwraiths breed true, actually, so the later generations of mistwraiths were never really humans, so this can't be always right. Maybe the specific mistwraiths who were humans initially can regain their memories, but certainly many mistwraiths where this would not be the case.

The First Generation are a special case since they were transferred directly to kandra. They were never really mistwraiths.

With the mistwraiths that were definitely not human, they actually fit this theory very well. They are not sentient, and then when you have a spike charged with that fragment of Preservation in humans going into the mistwraith. Bam, then they are sentient kandra.

I would think no if it is according to the principle of intent.

You, sir, get an upvote for that.

I don't think we know enough of the mechanics on Sel to accurately say how it is relevant for this theory. I'm not totally sure that the Dahkor are actually channeling the Dor. Maybe they are, maybe they are channeling something else and Raoden merely interprets it as the Dor.

[Emeralis00]

Of course! I was getting to focused. If you look at it in terms of Dor, this makes so much more sense. The Shaod only effects the people of Arelon because Elantris is IN Arelon. Duh, right? Elantris is only a means of accessing the power that is already there, in the Dor. I was equating the Shaod too much with returning, forgetting that it is not necessarily the shard choosing people, but a construct (or the shard through the construct, who knows which).

So, basically, whichever shard is responsible for the Dor probably provided the human race on Sel with sentience. I'm not sure Skai and Aona are both responsible for the Dor, but if they are, I suppose they would both be responsible for the sentience of humans. I know the Dakhor monks use the Dor, but remember that Hemalurgists use allomancy and feruchemy, just in a twisted way. The Dakhor bone twisting thing (With sacrifices and such) just seems too similar to Hemalurgy for my mind not to draw a connection between them. So, what if I say this. Aona provided humans with Sentience, and powers the Dor, and it's related powers. The different magic systems (the shaod and clay shan) are different cultures ways of interpreting and using the power that is there. Now, since Elantris is slightly more spectacular than Clay Shan, and more random than Dakhor (the Dakhor choose their monks and change them, the Shaod strikes randomly) I'm willing to bet there's some shard stuff going on there. However, while the Arelish (?) people are the only ones with access to the Shaod, they are not the only ones with access to the Dor, thus Aonoa could still have instilled shardic sentience in the rest of the world. Now the Dakhor, who I believe are using Skai's magic system, I think twist Aona's power, much in the same way that Inquisitors twist the power of Preservation.

Wow, that just made things make a whole lot of sense to me. Or am I jsut crazy? I admit it, that was written in a rush of inspiration, and I might look back in five minutes and think, "what was I thinking?" Nonetheless, I'm posting it anyways, and going to supper. Tell me what you think.

Makes perfect sense to me.

You do lose things, but you don't become the equivalent of a mistwraith.

I do not think we can say that sentient beings hold Splinters, as Brandon says we haven't seen Splinters on Scadrial. I mean, I agree with what you are saying, but it's imprecise to call them "Splinters".

Perhaps we should call them 'sparks'

I don't think the later generations of kandra became the humans they once did. There's not much evidence for that, at least. Mistwraiths breed true, actually, so the later generations of mistwraiths were never really humans, so this can't be always right. Maybe the specific mistwraiths who were humans initially can regain their memories, but certainly many mistwraiths where this would not be the case.

The First Generation are a special case since they were transferred directly to kandra. They were never really mistwraiths.

With the mistwraiths that were definitely not human, they actually fit this theory very well. They are not sentient, and then when you have a spike charged with that fragment of Preservation in humans going into the mistwraith. Bam, then they are sentient kandra.

This was what I was trying to get at. Does anyone know if Kandra lose their memories if they are un-spiked?

You, sir, get an upvote for that.

Thank you!

I don't think we know enough of the mechanics on Sel to accurately say how it is relevant for this theory. I'm not totally sure that the Dahkor are actually channeling the Dor. Maybe they are, maybe they are channeling something else and Raoden merely interprets it as the Dor.

Yeah, I remember saying that the bones were aon-like, not aons

[happyman]

First a reply to Chaos:

It's true that giving up a breath doesn't turn you into a mistwraith. Giving up part of his spirit didn't turn Preservation into a normal human, either. His intelligence and power, etc., were still superhuman, just not as superhuman as Ruin. That's the whole point of my idea that maybe a breath is simply as much as a human can give and still stay a sentient human. In other words, I'm saying that breath isn't an all-or-nothing thing, despite what we were told. There's evidence for that in the book, where Vasher shows the knowledge of how people can give up memories and other small parts of themselves; the commands are probably simply more subtle.

OK, this is turning out more complicated than I expected, but it also makes more sense than I thought at first.

Basically, what I am now liking is the idea that because humans are of Endownment, they can Endow, or give part of themselves away. The easiest commands, and the first ones that people found, and the only ones people in general know about, are the ones to give away everything they can while still remaining human. That's not all of themselves, or even close to it, but it still has power. That is what is known as a Breath, and since people have different amounts of spare power or strength, the Breaths will be of different quality, and will carry some of the original person with them. With more subtle commands, however, it is apparently possible to give away a smaller amount of yourself. Thus there is no reason to believe that a Breath represents all of your soul, or even close to it.

Thus giving away your breath doesn't turn you into a Mistwraith, but it probably is also part of what Endowment gave humans to make them human.

To emeralis00:

"Spark" wouldn't work for me, but that's just because I've spent too much time reading Girl Genius.

As for Sel, I'm inclined to think that Aona and Skai both really do use the same Dor, with their differences being in the different symbols used to channel it, which perhaps change what it possible using the different systems. Let me put it another way: All three magic systems we saw on Sel cause the users to glow when they are using their power. All three have the same visual effects, and many of the same basic outcomes, like increased strength, stamina and the like. All systems seem to draw their power from the Dor. The Dor seems like neutral ground on which the Shards can agree.

This is different from Scandrial, where the common ground was the use of metals. The metals for all three systems were absolutely identical, and their usage in the systems was interrelated, but the power sources were very different (e.g. Preservation, Self, Others). With Sel, the Dor seems to be the common ground, with the outlets into the real world changing with Shards.

The fact that the Dahkor monks bones are similar to old Fjorell characters makes me think that my idea of people settling where they have more power, thanks to their genetics, is more likely. Or maybe it is the other way around: The shards created places of power and people which were truly neutral, and that slowly changed the people around them to be able to naturally use the powers strongest in their homelands.

Edited May 28, 2011 by happyman

[Emeralis00]

@ Happyman

Then I will stick with "piece of {SHARD-NAME}"

I agree with you on the Dor being the common ground, but I am not sure about the shards creating a place of power, if that were true and all humans on Sel were neutral then even a Fjordell would be able to use AonDor if he lived in Arelon long enough like a Dula. They can't though; there has never been a fjordell elantrian.

[Zas678]

How about this: What if there is underlying power, left over from Adonalsium, and it is what powers most of the magic systems? It's where the power behind the Aons and the Dahkhor monks and Clayshan, and maybe even Allomancy comes from. It's a universal magic- perfect for a unifying theory of magic. So why is Allomancy "of Preservation?" Because Preservation acts like a gate to access the power. That's why Preservation is "hesitant" to directly fuel Allomancers- becuase they don't usually! They have their own connection to this underlying power, to this Power of Creation, and it's not unlimited.

Why can't Fjordell people become Elantrians? Because they are actually seperate people who come from (assumably) different places. And perhaps it has to do with the (new) Arelish people spending several decades before changing. If someone has lived for several decades in Arelon, they probably won't consider themselves Fjordell anymore. So maybe the close association with Elantris changed their Spiritual genetic makeup.

This is from Brandon's Store about the Aon Ehe:

The story tells of the first princess of Arelon. This was some years after the founding of Arelon following the migration of the Aonic people from other lands. Elantris, of course, had already existed as a city when that migration occurred, and had been discovered empty. While some people assumed it haunted, Proud King Rhashm (later renamed Raoshem) determined to conquer the fears of his people and set up a kingdom centered on Elantris.

The transformation of the first Elantrians happened beginning several decades later. Princess Elashe—the first of Raoshem's line to be chosen as an Elantrian—claimed to have seen the pattern of this Aon inscribed on a coal in her hearth the day after she underwent the transformation.

[Joe ST]

That is interesting indeed...

[happyman]

Very interesting story, Zas! I personally would have expected the time involved to be a bit longer, more like generations than decades. Of course, if it's a myth, it could have compressed the action quite a bit.

[Zas678]

I have an explanation to why it is! (somewhat)

Thanks to some WoTers in Amsterdam, we now have this quote:

He talked about the link between his magic systems. One of the core principles is 'investing'. In l lot of his systems people are trough some mechanism invested with magic powers. In Elantris trough the Shaod, In mistborn it's genetic, in tWoK it depends on what some one has done.

This means that the sDNA that provides for Allomancers isn't the same thing that determines whether an Elantrian is taken by the Shaod. Although the Shardic Sentinence may be true, that means that it is a lot less important to magic users than we thought.

Also, I find it really interesting that in WoK, powers are determined by what you have done. This means that anyone could be a magic user if they are noble/curious/truthful enough. I think that we're going to spend a LOT of time debating what causes each one.

[Chaos]

I now officially want a clear definition of the term "Invest". Whatever my conception of it is, it is woefully out of date.

The decades thing is quite interesting. We need to meditate on this, I think.

[Emeralis00]

When I posted this theory, I expected just a few posts of "Of course not!" and "Don't be daft."

But now major discussion is happening...I feel so happy.

Hmm, all this information means I need to work on my theory a bit more.

*Goes off to meditation chamber*

[Zas678]

Isn't Nightblood Invested? I seem to remember that term being used in that context before.

And remember, the report was from memory, so they may be blending things together.

[Elwynn]

Isn't Nightblood Invested? I seem to remember that term being used in that context before.

Yes, nightblood is an invested object, as well as shardblades. He talked about it saying an allomancer would have a hard time pushing or pulling on one of those two because it's an invested object.

Off-topic ?

Is anyone having problems getting into brandonothology? I can't seem to view it anymore.

[Chaos]

My conception is not only that Nightblood is Invested, but all Awakened objects are Invested. I believe in the annotations (maybe) he refers to an Awakened object as "Invested" with Breath.

[CrazyRioter]

and I think they use that terminology in the book as well?

[Chaos]

and I think they use that terminology in the book as well?

Let me check. It's been far too long since my reading of it.

Yup, they do indeed use the term invest. On the 1st edition hardcover, it occurs on page 378:

Awakeners could recover Breath they invested into objects; she'd been tutored on that.

Other instances: 397, 459. 459 is quite a good one, and relevant to this topic:

"The first, and most spectacular, are the Returned. They're called gods here in Hallandren, but I'd rather call them Spontaneous Sentient BioChromatic Manifestations in a Deceased Host. What is odd about them is that they're the only naturally occurring BioChromatic entity, which is theoretically the explanation for why they can't use or bestow their BioChromatic Investiture. Of course, the fact is that every living being is born with a certain BioChromatic Investiture. This could also explain why Type Ones retain sentience."

So, all living things have some amount of Investiture? I guess this makes sense from a theoretical standpoint on Nalthis: if Endowment created the beings there, they couldn't help having some measure of power on there.

This creation thing is starting to bug me, though. The planets physically existed before their Shardholders got there. So did the Shards simply create life?

Back to invested.

On page 460, "Invested" is capitalized, which could be just because when Vasher says it, it's a technical term. When Vivenna thought of it on page 378, she doesn't capitalize it because she doesn't know its significance.

On page 461, I have to laugh because we know some answers here.

The more you learn about BioChroma, the more you'll realize that there are more things that we don't know than there are things we do. Why are specific Commands so important, and why do they have to be spoken in your native language? What brings Type One entities--Returned--back to life in the first place? Why are Lifeless so dull-minded, while Returned fully sentient?

Well, the answer to the last two are easy. Endowment, and Returned are sentient because they have a Splinter rather than normal Breath, like Lifeless.

This whole conversation with Vasher and Vivenna is fascinating.

Treledees speaks once about investing, and it's also not capitalized there. But, in the Ars Arcanum, Invest is specifically used. Cool beans.

By the way, that free Warbreaker pdf? Great for word searching.

So yes, Invest is a term that is used. Cool beans.

[Emeralis00]

There is also a reference to a connection between breath and sentience...

[Chaos]

There is also a reference to a connection between breath and sentience...

Yup. But then again, Awakening was the best evidence for this theory in the first place

[Emeralis00]

Slight Update to OP.

EDIT: and again.

Edited July 8, 2011 by Emeralis00

[pmj812]

I has a confusion about this one.

So Preservation and Ruin had to collaborate because neither could create. Animals were not sentient because they had balanced amounts of Preservation and Ruin in them. Humans were sentient because they had a tiny piece of Preservation in them...

So do we think that Ruin is unable to give a piece of himself to grant sentience, or just unwilling?

Furthermore, do we think that humanity has similar origins elsewhere? Did Aona and Skai collaborate on Sel's humans? Was Endowment able to make humans by herself?

Honor claims credit for creating humanity... did he do it alone or did he need help?

Are Scadrians more reckless because of their connection to Ruin? More conservative because of Preservation?

Are Selians more ambitious and/or empathetic? Nalthians more generous? Rosharans more honest?