[BoM spoilers] Extent of Fullborn's powers

[Landis963]

59 minutes ago, Yata said:

He may forge a single ring/braclet of Nicrosil while He kept the Well's power.

He didn't need to compound Nicrosil, his base power alone would be more than enough to exterminate everyone. But if He manage to store some little part of his Power to use it in the right moment (as to hit the population with Emotional Allomancy or some other "scenic feat").

Also remember that an Leecher may destroy his Allomantic Reserve but... Rashek with his Feruchemy alone would be able to kill a dozen of Inquisitors

Killing Rashek isn't the problem.  The problem is Ruin getting his hands on a source of Chromium.  (And BTW there would still be Mistings of Chromium and Nicrosil - only cadmium and bendalloy were replaced by atium and malatium) Once those two things were found, All Ruin needed to do is bind it to a spike and give it to an inquisitor.  

Edited June 20, 2016 by Landis963

[Yata]

25 minutes ago, Landis963 said:

Killing Rashek isn't the problem.  The problem is Ruin getting his hands on a source of Chromium.  (And BTW there would still be Mistings of Chromium and Nicrosil - only cadmium and bendalloy were replaced by atium and malatium) Once those two things were found, All Ruin needed to do is bind it to a spike and give it to an inquisitor.  

Yeah but Rashek may manage Leecher's Inquisitors with his Feruchemy alone (after all with the Compound he Stored away tons of Attributes)...without thinking that with Chromium and Nicrosil no more to hide, also Rashek may use them aganist his Enemies.

PS: It's not important but only through the Mistsnapping Atium and Malatium Misting are born... with the "standard" Snapping an Human may develop Cadmium and Bendalloy powers (well quite useless without the ability to mine those metals)

Edited June 20, 2016 by Yata

[Landis963]

 

3 minutes ago, Yata said:

Yeah but Rashek may manage Leecher's Inquisitors with his Feruchemy alone (after all with the Compound he Stored away tons of Attributes)...without thinking that with Chromium and Nicrosil no more to hide, also Rashek may use them aganist his Enemies.

That would be the temptation, yes, but if Rashek knew what all the metals did (and the Well of Ascension probably would have told him), he'd know that Ruin would take every tool he made and turn it against him.  No need to give him more stuff to play with than necessary.  Or try to, in the case of the kandra and the Resolution.  

[Yata]

22 minutes ago, Landis963 said:

 

That would be the temptation, yes, but if Rashek knew what all the metals did (and the Well of Ascension probably would have told him), he'd know that Ruin would take every tool he made and turn it against him.  No need to give him more stuff to play with than necessary.  Or try to, in the case of the kandra and the Resolution.  

Yes on this you have right.

This is why I though, creating just a little amount of Nicrosil would be a good idea, after all if you don't compound... just a Nicrosil's ring may be used for the eternity and if you lose it (and Ruin obtain it) it's not a great problem... After all also Ruin already knows all the metals and their effects.

Edited June 20, 2016 by Yata

[DeTess]

26 minutes ago, Yata said:

Yeah but Rashek may manage Leecher's Inquisitors with his Feruchemy alone (after all with the Compound he Stored away tons of Attributes).

As I understood it, compounding allows you to get more mileage out of stored attributes, not the other way around. So normally you would get out as much as you put in, while with compounding you can get out four times as much.

How would compounding work when you get hit by a leecher anyway? Shouldn't that stop you from burning the metalmind?

[Yata]

15 minutes ago, randuir said:

As I understood it, compounding allows you to get more mileage out of stored attributes, not the other way around. So normally you would get out as much as you put in, while with compounding you can get out four times as much.

How would compounding work when you get hit by a leecher anyway? Shouldn't that stop you from burning the metalmind?

If he is not an Idiot, He had already tons of attributes in his Metalminds. He have to compound before the fight not in the fight. He may keep some charged metal in his stomach to burn for some "extra" but I will be really surprised if He rely only on a Battlefield's Compound.

[Edgedancer]

43 minutes ago, Yata said:

If he is not an Idiot, He had already tons of attributes in his Metalminds. He have to compound before the fight not in the fight. He may keep some charged metal in his stomach to burn for some "extra" but I will be really surprised if He rely only on a Battlefield's Compound.

Actually, as far as arrogance and battle savyness goes, the Lord Ruler was an idiot. Seeing how he had no backup his main bracers, not even the absolutely vital youth. (Not even going into just generally taking care with a would be assassin in the room or cheking/noticing if Vin's earring was a spike and if Ruin maybe had another ace up his sleeve so shortly before his chance to get free.)

[kenod]

On 20-6-2016 at 3:54 PM, Yata said:

If he is not an Idiot, He had already tons of attributes in his Metalminds. He have to compound before the fight not in the fight. He may keep some charged metal in his stomach to burn for some "extra" but I will be really surprised if He rely only on a Battlefield's Compound.

Can't a Leecher drain Metalminds with enough training? IIRC a Leecher managed to drain Nazh's ghost gun, which used Investure and definitely didn't work using Allomancy (IIRC it manipulated Shades).

[king of nowhere]

On 20/6/2016 at 4:43 PM, Edgedancer said:

Actually, as far as arrogance and battle savyness goes, the Lord Ruler was an idiot. Seeing how he had no backup his main bracers, not even the absolutely vital youth. (Not even going into just generally taking care with a would be assassin in the room or cheking/noticing if Vin's earring was a spike and if Ruin maybe had another ace up his sleeve so shortly before his chance to get free.)

not surprisingly, having godlike powers and facing no serious threat whatsoever for a millennia tend to do that. Heck, when playing chess, I only have to play one afternoon against much weaker opponents before I start making the kind of mistakes that they won't notice but a player of my level would never let unpunished. I can't imagine how much that would compound over a millennia.

By the way, notice how tlr first instinct as a response to being surprised or uncertain was to tap zinc. He was also totally unprepared to taking decisions on the fly. I think if wax with the bands had faced tlr, wax would have won easily, on account of him being used to actually fighting.

[Oversleep]

Having backup metalminds goes into territory of paranoid. You see, there was noone who could affect metals piercing the body besides himself. And additionaly, his metalminds were probably so Invested they couldn't have been Pulled on even if they were outside of the body.

So to do remove his metalminds (assuming everyone perfectly knew that there he was a Feruchemists and all knowledge it implies) you'd either need a seriously dedicated Feruchemist with a lot of steel stored (who TLR probably beats as Compounder) or Lurcher/Soulbearer (no nobles/Terris interbreeding and no nicrosil - pass along) or somebody burning the mists.

I don't see how could he know that a) mists can be burned b ) that someone can do this c) that Preservation chose somebody giving that person access to mists d) that that person wouldn't be him...
and e) Vin, even with all that impossible knowledge and abilities, could only defeat him because he ripped out her spike.

[king of nowhere]

32 minutes ago, Oversleep said:

Having backup metalminds goes into territory of paranoid. You see, there was noone who could affect metals piercing the body besides himself. And additionaly, his metalminds were probably so Invested they couldn't have been Pulled on even if they were outside of the body.

 

to be fair, you could remove them by hand, if you caught him by surprise when he wasn't burning/tapping anything. that'show it went in one of the drafts, actually. and while nobody knew those bracers were his metalminds, in fact nobody even knew he had bracers on the upper arms because he always wore sleeves, still there were keepers around who could figure it out. so keeping a backup of his most important metalminds - say, age, speed of body, speed of thought, healing - embedded under his skin wouldn't have been too paranoid.

 

[Oversleep]

Anyway, please let's keep this thread clean of the old discussion of how TLR was defeated. We can throw a new thread for that, I can even dig up my post explaning how that fight went from TLR's perspective (I found it very helpful).

[Thunder_93]

@Oversleep

I'd like to see that post of TLR's perspective, but I don't really know what to search for (there are so many TLR-discussions on this forum ), so if you could "dig it up" that would be really nice

Another question (just came to my mind):

It was discussed, if TLR had Nicrosil to compound (or, if not that much, at least store) investiture. I'm sure, we d all agree he could have create Nicrosil at the Well.

About the point somebody mentioned, that they'd have found an unkown metal on his body:

I remember that Elend said, after he sold the bracers of TLR, that it contained almost no Atium (or, just not a lot).

Isn't it possible that the actually where his Nicrosilminds? I don't remember that I ever read somewhere of what exact metal the bracers were.

And I mean, it would make sense. If I were him, I'd have there as "backup plan" Atium (for age), Gold (for healing) Nicrosil (for great powerbursts) and probably steel (for speed) in (we all know he should have protect them better, or have even another set of backup, or whatever)

[Oversleep]

12 hours ago, Thunder_93 said:

@Oversleep

I'd like to see that post of TLR's perspective, but I don't really know what to search for (there are so many TLR-discussions on this forum ), so if you could "dig it up" that would be really nice

12 hours ago, Thunder_93 said:

And I mean, it would make sense. If I were him, I'd have there as "backup plan" Atium (for age), Gold (for healing) Nicrosil (for great powerbursts) and probably steel (for speed) in (we all know he should have protect them better, or have even another set of backup, or whatever)

Well, if he did have backup metalminds then he would be truly indefeatable. So from storytelling perspective, TLR couldn't have been so genre savvy and paranoic.

[Yata]

9 hours ago, Oversleep said:

Well, if he did have backup metalminds then he would be truly indefeatable. So from storytelling perspective, TLR couldn't have been so genre savvy and paranoic.

I don't think it's all for that reason. Reading a WoB seems to indicate that his Atiummind was part of him for so long. that in the end, when it lose them, He enter in some kind of Spiritual Shock... I don't think he was capable to access his abilities for a while.

PS: There are another but unlikely possibility, it's possible that Ruin stole from him the F-Atium or/and A-Atium through the Atiummind with Hemalurgy in his last second of Fight.

[king of nowhere]

actually, i don't know how much backup metalminds would have been effective. with the mist, vin was capable of pushing heavily invested metalminds piercing the body. it stands to reason that she would have ripped out any other metalmind tlr could have embedded in him. so, as powerful as he was, he still had that limitation. though it would have hellped against someone ripping off his bracers with mundane means.

Also, there's to consider that tlr didn't have access to nicrosil besides what he may have made at the well of ascension. his capability of manufacturing backup metalminds was limited. And I don't think nicrosil would last a milllennia inside someone's body without oxydizing or spoiling in some other way.