Sam Script

Cultivation's captivation to Odium

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It's so amazing to learn this WoB =) It seems that Cultivation is somewhat involved in the plan to imprison Odium.

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This is great! I'm thrilled that you shared this :)

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Hmm...as in, "the Slammer?"  That's an American expression for prison.  I wonder if somehow Tanavast (Honor) used Cultivation as the vehicle for binding Odium to the Greater Roshar system.  Perhaps the reason we don't hear about Cultivation very much is because this wasn't completely voluntary on her part.  Talk about a horrible twist on the concept of honor being dead, using the woman you love as a means to an end!

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Using Cultivation against her will wouldn't be very Honorable, though. I know Shardholders can sometimes do things against their mandate, but that seems fairly extreme. I suspect if she is part of it, it was willing rather than forced.

jW

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Using Cultivation against her will wouldn't be very Honorable, though. I know Shardholders can sometimes do things against their mandate, but that seems fairly extreme. I suspect if she is part of it, it was willing rather than forced.

I am not so sure. I mean, for all we know Honour's true mandate can be about making others honourable, just like Ati didn't feel like ruining himself.

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Yeah we know a Shard's Intent doesn't apply to Himself/Herself

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This reminds me of

(Mistborn spoilers)

the red haze or whatever it is that is causing Sazed troubles.

It could be a similar thing that Cultivation is doing to Odium, limiting his influence.

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I am not so sure. I mean, for all we know Honour's true mandate can be about making others honourable, just like Ati didn't feel like ruining himself.

 

Yeah we know a Shard's Intent doesn't apply to Himself/Herself

 

That may be true, but in this case, that wouldn't be Honour being dishonourable towards himself, it's him acting with dishonour towards another person. One he loves/loved, no less. I don't see why Honour would only be about making others honourable while not acting with honour himself. To use your Ruin example, that would be like Ruin making others ruinous, but not being ruinous himself. I don't think it fits. Trapping Cultivation like that against her will would be an enormous betrayal of her trust, akin to Ruin acting to preserve an enemy he's bent on destroying.

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Also I would like to add that you cannot force someone into taking an honorable action. The sheer act of forcing them is making it coerced and not honorable. 

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If forcing Cultivation to trap Odium was the only way to save Roshar would it be an honorable action? Or would it be more honorable to allow Roshar, and everyone on it, to die?

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If forcing Cultivation to trap Odium was the only way to save Roshar would it be an honorable action? Or would it be more honorable to allow Roshar, and everyone on it, to die?

I was responding to whether or not Honor would be able to make Cultivation be honorable by making Cultivation hold Odium. So I was saying that by forcing Cultivation to hold Odium, Cultivation was being coerced so then Cultivation was not acting honorable. This post is if you were replying to mine. if you were however positing a new question, then please carry on lol. 

Edited by Pathfinder
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I was responding to whether or not Honor would be able to make Cultivation be honorable by making Cultivation hold Odium. So I was saying that by forcing Cultivation to hold Odium, Cultivation was being coerced so then Cultivation was not acting honorable. This post is if you were replying to mine. if you were however positing a new question, then please carry on lol.

Sorry for the confusion, my post was simply in response to the general discussion. I would have replied directly to you if I was specifically responding to your post.

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If forcing Cultivation to trap Odium was the only way to save Roshar would it be an honorable action? Or would it be more honorable to allow Roshar, and everyone on it, to die?

I believe both would be dis-honorable but one would be necessary. Leaving no other options does not make choosing the only option honorable. 

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If forcing Cultivation to trap Odium was the only way to save Roshar would it be an honorable action? Or would it be more honorable to allow Roshar, and everyone on it, to die?

 

It would be more honrable to find another way.

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It would be more honrable to find another way.

And if there was no other way? Would it be honorable to just sit back and let everything die? Take into account that Honour may have made an oath to protect the humans of Roshar.

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And if there was no other way? Would it be honorable to just sit back and let everything die? Take into account that Honour may have made an oath to protect the humans of Roshar.

 

Maybe that's why Odium could shatter him. Too many things pulling him in too many directions.

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And if there was no other way? Would it be honorable to just sit back and let everything die? Take into account that Honour may have made an oath to protect the humans of Roshar.

How could there only be 2 ways of doing something? That scenario is pretty much impossible.

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I have to disagree with the while "coercion isn't honorable" thing. I've seen honor used as a whip to goad someone into an action. Several times is life and in fiction.

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That doesn't make the act of coercion itself honourable, though. In any case, there's a big difference between manipulating someone to do something through their sense of honour -- like talking them into it -- and taking away someone's free will and agency and forcing them into a role they never agreed to take up. The way VirtuousTraveller described it is more like the latter, where Cultivation is treated as little more than a leash, an object with which to bind Odium, which is a horrible thing to do to a person.

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I think it likely that if Cultivation was used to imprison Odium- much as Preservation sacrificed his mind and much of his power to imprison Ruin- then it would be willing on her part. 

 

I don't think it would be so dramatic though- Ruin for instance was almost completely sealed with nearly the full power of Preservation. If Honor and Cultivation could do that, the Desolations wouldn't happen. 

No, it seems like Honor and Odium made a complex deal, and some power merely forces Odium to keep his word. His power is channelled into the ways the deal allows him to. Perhaps Cultivation supplied the power to hold him to the deal.

 

What makes me curious, is why the two didn't just defeat him two-vs-one when he first rocked up to Roshar. Why this complex deal, when they surely could overpower him?

Perhaps they were already too invested in Roshar to easily defeat him, and Odium himself was fearful of the combined power of two shards, so they made the deal as a safe means of accomplishing their respective goals.

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And if there was no other way? Would it be honorable to just sit back and let everything die? Take into account that Honour may have made an oath to protect the humans of Roshar.

I am still of the opinion where giving only two options that are both dishonorable, does not make one of them honorable by proxy. They both are dishonorable regardless. Just one has to be done. It is a necessary evil, but it is still an evil even though it is necessary. 

 

I think it likely that if Cultivation was used to imprison Odium- much as Preservation sacrificed his mind and much of his power to imprison Ruin- then it would be willing on her part. 

 

I don't think it would be so dramatic though- Ruin for instance was almost completely sealed with nearly the full power of Preservation. If Honor and Cultivation could do that, the Desolations wouldn't happen. 

No, it seems like Honor and Odium made a complex deal, and some power merely forces Odium to keep his word. His power is channelled into the ways the deal allows him to. Perhaps Cultivation supplied the power to hold him to the deal.

 

What makes me curious, is why the two didn't just defeat him two-vs-one when he first rocked up to Roshar. Why this complex deal, when they surely could overpower him?

Perhaps they were already too invested in Roshar to easily defeat him, and Odium himself was fearful of the combined power of two shards, so they made the deal as a safe means of accomplishing their respective goals.

Perhaps at the time they did not know how Odium was shattering shards so they did not even have the capacity to. Or their limited knowledge would risk themselves dying or being damaged. Since they were in a relationship, it would be understandable to try and find other solutions that wouldn't result in the one you love coming to harm. Maybe in the span of them trying to find another way, Odium was able to shatter Honor. Or they found another way in the oath pact, but Odium still found a way around it enough to shatter honor. Would certainly explain why Cultivation would be bitter. She could be bitter towards the heralds for not holding up their end, and resulting in Honor getting shattered. Or it could be completely unrelated. Just spit balling

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Sorry but doesnt make sense at all that Honor forced Her into it. best explaination is she and honor came up with the plan togather.

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I'm leaning towards cultivation knowingly helping with the plan seeing as she's better at seeing the future. She may have actually came up with the plan. 

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