Worldhoppers on Threnody

[VirtuousTraveller]

 

"The one you have to watch for is the White Fox," Daggon said, sipping his beer.  "They say he shook hands with Evil itself, that he visited the Fallen World and came back with strange powers.  He can kindle fire on even the deepest of nights, an no shade will dare come for his soul."  

 

-Opening Sentences of Shadows for Silence in the Forests of Hell

 

I've just started listening to SSFH again and these very first sentences jump out at me.  This almost sounds like a description of a worldhopper.

 

We know Elantrians can create fire and would demonstrate all kinds of strange powers to people unfamiliar with them. The idea of the "White" Fox could possibly even reference their silvery white hair? I know that Silence is the White Fox, but this description sounds more like an old myth (with hints of truth?) than anything else.

 

I reference the Elantrians because we know that the Ire were worried about visitors from Threnody.  I wonder if there's something about the Elantrians (or whichever kind of other world invested person) that put out some kind of natural shade repellent as a result of the investiture they have?

 

This is the first time I'm reading this novella in awhile, so please enlighten me if we have some good theories about what this may be referencing!

[Yata]

A lot of people think that the "White Fox" is Hoid (he has white hair)

[VirtuousTraveller]

That would make sense.  I wonder if this gives us a hint about what "Evil" is, as Hoid and Rayse (Odium) were once friends (and likely shook hands at some point :-P)

[ParadoxicalZen]

I'm more intrigued about the Fallen World

[Yata]

On 26/5/2016 at 10:11 AM, ParadoxSpren said:

I'm more intrigued about the Fallen World

Me too.

 

Anyway the simply fact that Worldhopper may go to e from Threnody implies that:

1) There are Perpendicularities not related to Shardpool.

2) they have another method not relate to Perpendicularity to Worldhop (like the one in the Surgebinding)

Edited May 2, 2017 by Yata

[VirtuousTraveller]

This is going to sound crazy, but do we know for certain that Threnody exists in the Physical Realm?  The eerie landscape almost feels like Shadesmar in a way with the mysterious dark forest.

 

 

 

http://www.theoryland.com/intvsresults.php?kw=threnody   PALADIN BREWER

Is Threnody in the same planetary system as Sel?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Yes it is.

 

We've seen other Sel-Threnody involvement with the Ire in SH.  Also, in the Cognitive Realm, we see the Ire have a beautiful fortress, which made me think about the "fort folk" that Silence references.  When you think of the Fallen World, perhaps these people are referring back to Sel before they had to escape into the Cognitive Realm, where their collective imagination creates this terrible place (named in memorial for their lost world - perhaps following Odium's wake on Sel?  Perhaps after the Fjordell Empire/Skaze/Svrakiss cause major issues on Sel?)

It's a stretch, but I wonder if Threnody's issue is an odd blurring of boundaries between the Physical and Cognitive Realms.  If it doesn't exist solely in the Cognitive, I wonder if it's possible for it to be sitting in between both?

[Oudeis]

Um, you should be aware, if you find the original source of that Paladin Brewer quote, it's immediately rescinded. He wrote it down from memory, and Peter showed up almost immediately to confirm that it's not true.

 

EDIT: Source.

Edited May 26, 2016 by Oudeis

[VirtuousTraveller]

Um, you should be aware, if you find the original source of that Paladin Brewer quote, it's immediately rescinded. He wrote it down from memory, and Peter showed up almost immediately to confirm that it's not true.

 

EDIT: Source.

 

Curses Theoryland database!  I do remember hearing this, however since there wasn't a notation for this quote when I found it in passing, it slipped my mind entirely.

 

I wonder though, perhaps in the fatigue of touring, Brandon gave us a Freudian slip - that there IS a connection between Sel and Threnody.  It's pretty strongly implied that the Ire are of Selish descent, and they're worried about shades from Threnody, from which they have a massive fort to keep them safe.

 

Technically, a planet in the Cognitive Realm wouldn't be in the same Physical Realm planetary system as another, and they wouldn't revolve around the "same" star, as it seems the sun/star in Shadesmar is different than the one in the Physical Realm.

 

What do you think Oudeis?  The idea of an entire planet existing entirely in (or partially in) the Cognitive Realm just seems too interesting for me to pass up completely! 

Edited May 26, 2016 by VirtuousTraveller

[The Ninja Yodeler]

Are there stars in the Cognitive Realm? Besides the not-suns we see. Cant find mention of them. But I dont own all of the books. Not a single mention in MB:SH. But that is on Scadrial, with their terrible sky(Not exactly sure where the fortress is located in respect to the Physical Realm). But yeah, might be one way to tell if Threnody is in CR. Maybe not.

Edited May 28, 2016 by The Ninja Yodeler

[Yata]

Are there stars in the Cognitive Realm? Besides the not-suns we see. Cant find mention of them. But I dont own all of the books. Not a single mention in MB:SH. But that is on Scadrial, with their terrible sky(Not exactly sure where the fortress is located in respect to the Physical Realm). But yeah, might be one way to tell if Threnody is in CR. Maybe not.

Probably a Star doesn't reflect in the Cognitive there aren't life on there and probably there aren't enough people that think to it (and less on Scadrial during the Final Empire where the Misty night hidden the stars).

 

If we don't see the real Sun in the Cognitive (that most people see and think about), the stars are yet less relevant to the collectve mind.

(or maybe there is Sun and Stars but the peculiar geography of the Cognitive... puts them adiacent to Shardworlds not in the "sky")

Edited May 28, 2016 by Yata

[Nyali]

The sky of the Cognitive Realm is so different from the Physical that I don't think the descriptions in Shadows could be of the Cognitive. If you recall, they mention a cluster of particularly bright stars. This cluster is mentioned on other worlds too, notably Scadrial, implying that they're relatively close to each other astrographically.

 

If I recall correctly, there's a WoB out there somewhere that says that the Shades are the remnants of the power of a Shard that was destroyed (I think he RAFOed whether it was splintered or not - I need to get better at WoBhunting). Threnody is, after all, a word that means "a paean for the dead," and I think (there's that word again) there's a WoB out there confirming it was named in honor of the dead Shard Vessel (or Shard?).

 

The people on Threnody talk about how "the evil" fell from the sky and destroyed "homeland." This could mean that when the Shard died, the investiture rained down upon the land, wrecking devastation, throwing technology back hundreds or thousands of years and leaving behind the Cognitive Shadows they call Shades. The Shades follow such specific rules, I can't help but think that they are manifestations of the Shard's intent, which was something that was against violence, blood, fire, and running, and when someone does one of those things near a Shade, it lashes out in a cruel mockery of its intent. Or, perhaps the intent had something to do with time, since the Shades age and tarnish anything they touch. So, Serenity? Time? Patience? 

[Pathfinder]

The sky of the Cognitive Realm is so different from the Physical that I don't think the descriptions in Shadows could be of the Cognitive. If you recall, they mention a cluster of particularly bright stars. This cluster is mentioned on other worlds too, notably Scadrial, implying that they're relatively close to each other astrographically.

 

If I recall correctly, there's a WoB out there somewhere that says that the Shades are the remnants of the power of a Shard that was destroyed (I think he RAFOed whether it was splintered or not - I need to get better at WoBhunting). Threnody is, after all, a word that means "a paean for the dead," and I think (there's that word again) there's a WoB out there confirming it was named in honor of the dead Shard Vessel (or Shard?).

 

The people on Threnody talk about how "the evil" fell from the sky and destroyed "homeland." This could mean that when the Shard died, the investiture rained down upon the land, wrecking devastation, throwing technology back hundreds or thousands of years and leaving behind the Cognitive Shadows they call Shades. The Shades follow such specific rules, I can't help but think that they are manifestations of the Shard's intent, which was something that was against violence, blood, fire, and running, and when someone does one of those things near a Shade, it lashes out in a cruel mockery of its intent. Or, perhaps the intent had something to do with time, since the Shades age and tarnish anything they touch. So, Serenity? Time? Patience? 

Problem with this is it seems to be accepted within the world, that the shades predate the Evil. Quote below:

 

Shadows for Silence in the Forests of Hell kindle location 210

"The first people to come scout this continent, the first to homestead the Forests.... the first to stake a claim on hell itself"

"Don't call the Forests that. This is my home"

"But it is how men saw this land, before the Evil. Doesn't that make you curious? Hell, land of the damned, where the shadows of the dead made their home."

 

So they saw that the land was home of shades even before the Evil showed up.

Edited June 6, 2016 by Pathfinder

[Nyali]

Problem with this is it seems to be accepted within the world, that the shades predate the Evil. Quote below:

 

Shadows for Silence in the Forests of Hell kindle location 210

"The first people to come scout this continent, the first to homestead the Forests.... the first to stake a claim on hell itself"

"Don't call the Forests that. This is my home"

"But it is how men saw this land, before the Evil. Doesn't that make you curious? Hell, land of the damned, where the shadows of the dead made their home."

 

So they saw that the land was home of shades even before the Evil showed up.

 

Huh. I somehow missed that bit. That's super interesting. Thank you!

[Pathfinder]

Huh. I somehow missed that bit. That's super interesting. Thank you!

No problem. I had re-read the short story regarding another post, and I saw that while I was at it.