Jump to content

Recommended Posts

I have to correct one thing, Confused. Brandon has stated fairly unambiguously that the Shard's Mandate (I think he used intent in the WoB, but I like the Mandate term too) only really affects how you gain access to the magic, not what it can do. My view from the WoB's I've seen plus in-world clues is that the Shard provides the method of Initiation, and in some cases provides a way to lose the power (ala Surgebinding), but the world and its foci in particular affect how to actually use the magic (metals on Scadrial, colors on Sel, etc) are an unconscious interaction between the Shard and the planet itself, and the Shard's Mandate doesn't play a role in what is possible with the magic system at all.

jW

Agreed. I think this is further proved by the fact that shardworlds still have a small level of magic, even when not invested by a shard.

It's probably relevant to this conversation to note that the spiritual realm is called a "timeless place" when described in the books. It's strongly implied that time is relevant only in the cognitive and physical realms.

Since Spren are primarily cognitive, this means that they can change. I'm guessing, though, that part of them is anchored to the spiritual realm, due to being a small part of Adonalsium, and thus are at least partly timeless. Thus if words manage to completely flip meanings, I doubt that the Spren will go all the way.

I don't think that the spiritual realm is exactly timeless. This being true would just make so many different things strange. Shards would probably be able to change the past and future, as well as perfectly predict the future. Humans would be born instantly with all the effects that would ever come to pass on their spirit webs. Snapping wouldn't really make sense. Anyways, I'm pretty sure Brandon has said that time DOES matter in the spiritual, but not space. It's late and I can't find the WoB but I'm sure I've seen it.

Back to what you said about Spren and how they have changed, Confused, I don't think human definition of these true ideals can be shifted. I disagree that in this case things do not exist until defined, I think that the ideals of the spiritual realm harbor the true and absolute existence of all things, separate from what humans think or label them as. I think one of these spiritual templates changing based on how they are perceived as likely as the same happening to a Shards mandate. The spiritual realm in general is very strange and philosophical, I don't think we really know enough to guess at these types of things, I'm just trying to explain my thoughts based on what we have seen throughout the text. Your thoughts?

Edited by Blightsong
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Jondesu, please look at the very end of this post. I quote the specific WoB you reference (originally quoted by Blightsong) and suggest people read too much into that quote. IMO Brandon means that a Shard's magic can be used to perform acts outside the scope of the Shard's Mandate. For example, Ruin's magic does more than just destroy things; burning atium can provide future sight. If this WoB were literally true, then all Magic systems on a single planet with multiple Shards would be identical to one another, with identical magical effects. Scadrial and Roshar both show this is not true.

 

As I try to explain in the post you respond to, there is no difference among Shards other than their Mandates. Shards all use Adonalsium's power to effect magic. Only their Mandates - which didn't exist when Adonalsium himself wielded the power - distinguish one Shard from another.

 

I agree that magic results from the "interaction between the Shard and the planet." Later WoB than the one you reference states this. There's no way to square those WoB unless the earlier one means what I suggest, that Mandates don't preclude a Shard from performing magic outside its "role/personality."

 

Blightsong, Minor Shardworlds (i.e., Shardworlds without a resident Shard) have ambient magic because Adonalsium made them that way. Brandon has said this. For that reason, the ambient magic of Minor Shardworlds is Mandate-free. I don't think that relates to the WoB we're discussing.

 

What is a "true ideal"? Shai makes clear that Spiritual Realm ideals form from human perceptions:

 

“‘These things exist beyond us…We think about windows, we know about windows; what is and isn’t a window takes on…meaning in the Spiritual Realm. Takes on life, after a fashion.’”

 

TES, Kindle, p. 75, (emphasis added; ellipsis in original).

 

Only when human interactions and perceptions form a consensus about what a window is does a Spiritual Realm window "ideal" take shape, "takes on life." This would be true of newly-invented objects as well as new ideas and thoughts. As quickly as human thought consensus changes, so do the Spiritual Realm ideals representing that thought.

 

Does "honor" mean the same thing to us as it might have to a medieval knight? Does "honor" mean the same thing to people from Japan, Saudi Arabia and Brazil? Think how often earthly "godspren" would change over our millenia, from polytheistic to monothestic.

 

How could civilizations and culture change if "the ideals of the spiritual realm harbor the true and absolute existence of all things, separate from what humans think or label them as"? Did a window ideal exist before the window was invented? Scadrial must have an ideal form of gun, since guns now exist there. Roshar doesn't. (And please don't mention Jasnah's bandolier...)

 

I just think you have too static a view of both the Spiritual Realm and Platonic ideal formation. You asked, and those are my thoughts. Thanks for the invite!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Does "honor" mean the same thing to us as it might have to a medieval knight? Does "honor" mean the same thing to people from Japan, Saudi Arabia and Brazil? Think how often earthly "godspren" would change over our millenia, from polytheistic to monothestic.

 

How could civilizations and culture change if "the ideals of the spiritual realm harbor the true and absolute existence of all things, separate from what humans think or label them as"? Did a window ideal exist before the window was invented? Scadrial must have an ideal form of gun, since guns now exist there. Roshar doesn't. (And please don't mention Jasnah's bandolier...)

 

I just think you have too static a view of both the Spiritual Realm and Platonic ideal formation. You asked, and those are my thoughts. Thanks for the invite!

 

I may have too static a view of Platonic Ideals.  However, what I am saying is not that there must be one ideal of Honor, to the detriment of the fact that different cultures have different definitions, but instead that because different cultures have different definitions, there must be one overall definition, that encompasses them all.  There is only one shard of Honor, however we have seen several different planets.  Therefore, that shard must be relatively all-encompasing, or it would not work.  I am saying that it does set the definition, but is also effected by it.  I think that it would take a pretty massive change in the definition of Honor, cosmere-wide, before it would change.  This is what I am basing my 'static' definition of Honor on.  Because Adonalsium is a cosmere-wide (deity? Power?) he would have set the definition, to start with.  He may be affected by his creations, however it is unlikely that he would be vastly effected by them.

 

I may have stated this in a confusing way.  Already, I see flaws in this argument, however I do not have time to go into further detail on this topic.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Chaos locked this topic
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...