Wyndle and the Nightwatcher

[Nedyah Drallid]

I don't actually have a problem with you using definitions of Honor that you think match the book. I did it too. My point is that that is not totally confirmed, so you are basing it on your own assumptions and theories. Your definition actually make sense, but they are not confirmed. My statement that the spren change based on human perception follows those same lines. We see perception influence most of investiture in the cosmere, most notably the aons. Stormlight is also influenced by perception, (Kaladin's brands). So why shouldn't spren be victims of perception too? You brought up two points against it, neither of which I think actually count. 

1.WoB

Your WoB state that spren can't act outside of their nature. I'm not saying they can. I'm saying that their nature actually changes

2. Fearspren, Painspren, Rotspren, etc.

Do you know for a fact that they mean the same now that they did 1000 years ago?

 

Could you please give me an example of how someone could be honest, integrous, and fair, and still be cruel?

 

You know what else Syl can't do? She can't fly when in a human shape. Sure she hovers, but Kaladin makes special note of how she seems to walk down stairs in human form instead of flying (or falling) around. Does that mean Honor is against people flying(or falling) around. Because if he did, he sure messed up when he made an Honorblade that grants the surge of gravitation.

 

Last note about something you said earlier. You said illumination was one of the 10 natural forces on Roshar. Where did you get that information? Conversations from the book? Isn't it a bit "naive" to assume that just because people in the book view something one way, that is the right way?

[Blightsong]

I don't actually have a problem with you using definitions of Honor that you think match the book. I did it too. My point is that that is not totally confirmed, so you are basing it on your own assumptions and theories. Your definition actually make sense, but they are not confirmed. My statement that the spren change based on human perception follows those same lines. We see perception influence most of investiture in the cosmere, most notably the aons. Stormlight is also influenced by perception, (Kaladin's brands). So why shouldn't spren be victims of perception too? You brought up two points against it, neither of which I think actually count. 

1.WoB

Your WoB state that spren can't act outside of their nature. I'm not saying they can. I'm saying that their nature actually changes

2. Fearspren, Painspren, Rotspren, etc.

Do you know for a fact that they mean the same now that they did 1000 years ago?

 

Could you please give me an example of how someone could be honest, integrous, and fair, and still be cruel?

 

You know what else Syl can't do? She can't fly when in a human shape. Sure she hovers, but Kaladin makes special note of how she seems to walk down stairs in human form instead of flying (or falling) around. Does that mean Honor is against people flying(or falling) around. Because if he did, he sure messed up when he made an Honorblade that grants the surge of gravitation.

 

Last note about something you said earlier. You said illumination was one of the 10 natural forces on Roshar. Where did you get that information? Conversations from the book? Isn't it a bit "naive" to assume that just because people in the book view something one way, that is the right way?

You are right, they are not confirmed, I simply think that I have strong evidence for these definitions and I am trying to convince you of them. If we had confirmation I wouldn't have to argue this point.

You are only half correct when talking about Spren here. Spren are not just living human ideas. They are a lying embodiment of how humans personify a spiritual ideal. While how humans personify them can change, the actual spiritual ideal that they are based off of them does not change. So yes they are changed by perception, but their very nature, their spiritual make up, does not change in the same way.

I think that if those Spren were any different Dalinar would have remarked on it during his visions. He never actually talks about a Spren during his flashbacks, but if he didn't see them or if anything was different Brandon would have put that in there.

There is actually a very good example of such a person in the books themselves; Nalan. He is very convinced of what he is doing, he uses honest means to accomplish them and most likely believes what he is doing is moral. Nonetheless what he does is very cruel.mIm certain that we will see much more of this from actual Skybreakers in the future.

I find it rediculous if your argument is that you think her choice to not fly when in human form (or even her inability to) is as important to this discussion as her inability to lie. As you said above, you think my definitions make sense (although they are not confirmed). If that is the case then you see my point as to her inability to lie.

Brandon often refers to the ten surges as how the laws of physics are perceived and expressed on Roshar.

WoB:

INTERVIEW: Mar 21st, 2014

WOR Signing Report - Kurkistan (Verbatim)

KURKISTAN

Are flamespren, are they all doing their own thing, or is there some Ideal of "Fire" sitting in the Spiritual Realm that they're all based on?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Each spren is based on the Ideal of Fire.

KURKISTAN

And is that sitting in the Spiritual Realm?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Yes, we're using sort of a Platonic Ideal, and that concept is in force, so < sounds hesitant > "yes", but [spren] are manifestations of it.

KURKISTAN

So these Ideals in the Spiritual Realm: Divine Breath, does that heal by accessing some Ideal of Human Health: so a guy who had never had a tongue and doesn't know how to speak all the sudden has a tongue and can speak? [Note: Talking of Susebron here]

BRANDON SANDERSON

You are... < LONG pause > You are, um, on the right track.

KURKISTAN

Okay...

BRANDON SANDERSON

Because the Breath is... eh. How can I explain this? You are, yeah... So... So each Breath is a shade of deity, right?

KURKISTAN

Yeah.

BRANDON SANDERSON

And each Breath incorporates into it this sort of idea of being endowed by the deity Endowment, correct?

KURKISTAN

Yes.

BRANDON SANDERSON

And so each Breath you hold brings you one step closer to becoming like that, and so what you're saying is... is "yes", kind of true, yes.

KURKISTAN

But it's like within the Breath, not sitting off by itself—

BRANDON SANDERSON

Yes, yes yes exactly.

TAGS

spren, breath, spiritual realm, warbreaker, stormlight archive, cosmere,

INTERVIEW: Feb 25th, 2016

Calamity-Austin

QUESTION

The ten Surges on Roshar, I think you said are basically a different set of laws of physics.

BRANDON SANDERSON

Yeah.

QUESTION

Are those laws of physics consistent throughout the Cosmere?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Um, yes, to an extent. You would consider, like - it's kind of weird because I based them on the idea of the fundamental forces, but this is kind of like a human construction. Like you could say that physics is pure and natural, but we're still putting things in boxes. And the scientists on Roshar would for instance consider being able to travel between the Cognitive and Physical Realms as a force, the thing that pulls people back and forth between that, as a fundamental force. I don't know if it would fit our definition of a fundamental force.

TAGS

Brandon on terminology,

[Nedyah Drallid]

You are right, they are not confirmed, I simply think that I have strong evidence for these definitions and I am trying to convince you of them. If we had confirmation I wouldn't have to argue this point.

You are only half correct when talking about Spren here. Spren are not just living human ideas. They are a lying embodiment of how humans personify a spiritual ideal. While how humans personify them can change, the actual spiritual ideal that they are based off of them does not change. So yes they are changed by perception, but their very nature, their spiritual make up, does not change in the same way.

I think that if those Spren were any different Dalinar would have remarked on it during his visions. He never actually talks about a Spren during his flashbacks, but if he didn't see them or if anything was different Brandon would have put that in there.

There is actually a very good example of such a person in the books themselves; Nalan. He is very convinced of what he is doing, he uses honest means to accomplish them and most likely believes what he is doing is moral. Nonetheless what he does is very cruel.mIm certain that we will see much more of this from actual Skybreakers in the future.

I find it rediculous if your argument is that you think her choice to not fly when in human form (or even her inability to) is as important to this discussion as her inability to lie. As you said above, you think my definitions make sense (although they are not confirmed). If that is the case then you see my point as to her inability to lie.

Brandon often refers to the ten surges as how the laws of physics are perceived and expressed on Roshar.

WoB:

INTERVIEW: Mar 21st, 2014

WOR Signing Report - Kurkistan (Verbatim)

KURKISTAN

Are flamespren, are they all doing their own thing, or is there some Ideal of "Fire" sitting in the Spiritual Realm that they're all based on?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Each spren is based on the Ideal of Fire.

KURKISTAN

And is that sitting in the Spiritual Realm?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Yes, we're using sort of a Platonic Ideal, and that concept is in force, so < sounds hesitant > "yes", but [spren] are manifestations of it.

KURKISTAN

So these Ideals in the Spiritual Realm: Divine Breath, does that heal by accessing some Ideal of Human Health: so a guy who had never had a tongue and doesn't know how to speak all the sudden has a tongue and can speak? [Note: Talking of Susebron here]

BRANDON SANDERSON

You are... < LONG pause > You are, um, on the right track.

KURKISTAN

Okay...

BRANDON SANDERSON

Because the Breath is... eh. How can I explain this? You are, yeah... So... So each Breath is a shade of deity, right?

KURKISTAN

Yeah.

BRANDON SANDERSON

And each Breath incorporates into it this sort of idea of being endowed by the deity Endowment, correct?

KURKISTAN

Yes.

BRANDON SANDERSON

And so each Breath you hold brings you one step closer to becoming like that, and so what you're saying is... is "yes", kind of true, yes.

KURKISTAN

But it's like within the Breath, not sitting off by itself—

BRANDON SANDERSON

Yes, yes yes exactly.

TAGS

spren, breath, spiritual realm, warbreaker, stormlight archive, cosmere,

INTERVIEW: Feb 25th, 2016

Calamity-Austin

QUESTION

The ten Surges on Roshar, I think you said are basically a different set of laws of physics.

BRANDON SANDERSON

Yeah.

QUESTION

Are those laws of physics consistent throughout the Cosmere?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Um, yes, to an extent. You would consider, like - it's kind of weird because I based them on the idea of the fundamental forces, but this is kind of like a human construction. Like you could say that physics is pure and natural, but we're still putting things in boxes. And the scientists on Roshar would for instance consider being able to travel between the Cognitive and Physical Realms as a force, the thing that pulls people back and forth between that, as a fundamental force. I don't know if it would fit our definition of a fundamental force.

TAGS

Brandon on terminology,

My point is, you accused me of headcanon, whilst you were doing the same thing. 

 

Do you know that a spren's spiritual cannot change for a fact? It would be great if you did, it would be very useful to know. If you do know, please provide relevant WoB. (The WoB you provided shows that there is an ideal, not that the ideal can't change.)

 

I think there are a few things you are ignoring here. If Dalinar saw a tiny purple slug, he would assume it is fearspren. That doesn't mean it is. Also, the visions aren't for sure in the past. He makes it seem that way, but based on how the shards can see the future, are we 100% sure they are in the past? (I'm looking at you Purelake vision.) I'm not saying they are in the future, I'm saying that is a possibility. (I may have just accidentally introduced a new topic of argument.) Finally, you assume Mr. Sanderson would show us spren if it was important, but he has been known to hide things in the past.

 

I agree, Nalan shows integrity and doesn't show dishonesty. But there were three parts to that definition. Nalan did not show fairness. To be fair, he would have had to hear their side, he couldn't just murder cobblers in the street. Unless you can show me a time when someone is all three of the traits and cruel, I either have to believe that your definition is wrong, or Honorspren can act against the definition. Either one helps my stance on liespren.

 

 

Lets deal with the elephant in the room. I did not in the slightest think that Honor was against people flying. (Just like I don't think he is againts lying.) I was just trying to show, through analogy, that just because Syl doesn't do something, it doesn't mean Honor doesn't do it either. I see your first definition making sense, not the second one. Coincidentally, the first one doesn't interfere with my stance on Cryptics coming from Honor.

 

Your final WoB actually helps my stance. He says those are their fundamental laws of physics. The ones they categorize. Wouldn't it make sense for people to categorize forces based on the orders of the Knight's Radiant? Just like, even though there are more metals than just the sixteen, those are the ones Scadrialites (?) would classify,

[Magestar]

Those are the ones Scadrialites (?) would classify,

 

Scadrians, I believe.  Also, 

 

 

KURKISTAN

Are flamespren, are they all doing their own thing, or is there some Ideal of "Fire" sitting in the Spiritual Realm that they're all based on?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Each spren is based on the Ideal of Fire.

KURKISTAN

And is that sitting in the Spiritual Realm?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Yes, we're using sort of a Platonic Ideal, and that concept is in force, so < sounds hesitant > "yes", but [spren] are manifestations of it.

 

 

A platonic ideal means, basically, that there is one, irrefutable base, upon which everything is based.  So, by that standard, spren cannot change, unless you change the 'spiritual' base upon which it is based.  So, Fire Spren are unlikely to change, ever.  The same way that a Stick is unlikely to change into fire without doing some serious convincing that it should be fire.  On the same note, Brandon seemingly implies that there is more to it than that.   So, for instance, Angerspren are always going to appear when someone is angry.  However, you appear to be talking about Liespren, which is a misnomer.  These spren are splinters of a Shard, and they have the capability to learn, as shown with Syl.  Liespren do not appear when someone lies.  So, they are not the type of spren that are based on a human ideal.  Honorspren do not appear around someone when they are being honorable. 

 

On the original topic, I think it makes sense that Wyndle is a cultivation spren, if not THE cultivation spren.  He is certainly a spren, who appears to be of cultivation.  I agree that an Honorspren would likely not lie, seeing as they are 'Honorable.'  However, keep in mind that Windrunner ideals are very hard-and-fast.  There is another thread on that, I believe.  Syl, the only  real Honorspren we have seen, hates lying.  This may have more to do with her being a Windrunner spren than anything else.  Other Honorspren may see lying in some cases, to be Honorable.  We really do not have enough information to tell.  

 

However, Wyndle not only lies, he lies without purpose, which is certainly dis-honorable.  However, he is bad at it, which may lead us believe that he is trying to learn how to lie, because it is hard.  And it may be hard, because it is not Honorable, and he is an honorspren.  We just do not know.  

 

I do see a good bit of evidence that he is a spren of cultivation, even though it is not 'hard' evidence.  But we have so little of that, in general.  The fact that he deals with regrowth could point to that.  The fact that he 'cultivates' truth, and/or lies could point to that.  But Syl could be said to 'cultivate' Kaladins honor.  

 

I realize I am arguing with myself.  I believe this to be because there is no way to get a concrete answer, without Brandon's say-so, or some more concrete facts.

 

As A final note, I do think it makes sense for Wyndle to be a cultivation spren.  However, I personally think that most surgebinder spren could be classified as the same, to some extent.  Aren't surges of Cultivation and Honor?

Edited May 22, 2016 by Magestar

[Blightsong]

Scadrians, I believe.  Also, 

 

 

 

 

A platonic ideal means, basically, that there is one, irrefutable base, upon which everything is based.  So, by that standard, spren cannot change, unless you change the 'spiritual' base upon which it is based.  So, Fire Spren are unlikely to change, ever.  The same way that a Stick is unlikely to change into fire without doing some serious convincing that it should be fire.  On the same note, Brandon seemingly implies that there is more to it than that.   So, for instance, Angerspren are always going to appear when someone is angry.  However, you appear to be talking about Liespren, which is a misnomer.  These spren are splinters of a Shard, and they have the capability to learn, as shown with Syl.  Liespren do not appear when someone lies.  So, they are not the type of spren that are based on a human ideal.  Honorspren do not appear around someone when they are being honorable. 

 

On the original topic, I think it makes sense that Wyndle is a cultivation spren, if not THE cultivation spren.  He is certainly a spren, who appears to be of cultivation.  I agree that an Honorspren would likely not lie, seeing as they are 'Honorable.'  However, keep in mind that Windrunner ideals are very hard-and-fast.  There is another thread on that, I believe.  Syl, the only  real Honorspren we have seen, hates lying.  This may have more to do with her being a Windrunner spren than anything else.  Other Honorspren may see lying in some cases, to be Honorable.  We really do not have enough information to tell.  

 

However, Wyndle not only lies, he lies without purpose, which is certainly dis-honorable.  However, he is bad at it, which may lead us believe that he is trying to learn how to lie, because it is hard.  And it may be hard, because it is not Honorable, and he is an honorspren.  We just do not know.  

 

I do see a good bit of evidence that he is a spren of cultivation, even though it is not 'hard' evidence.  But we have so little of that, in general.  The fact that he deals with regrowth could point to that.  The fact that he 'cultivates' truth, and/or lies could point to that.  But Syl could be said to 'cultivate' Kaladins honor.  

 

I realize I am arguing with myself.  I believe this to be because there is no way to get a concrete answer, without Brandon's say-so, or some more concrete facts.

 

As A final note, I do think it makes sense for Wyndle to be a cultivation spren.  However, I personally think that most surgebinder spren could be classified as the same, to some extent.  Aren't surges of Cultivation and Honor?

I think for a lot of your post you ment to say Pattern instead of Wyndle.

Magestar said pretty much what I was going to about the platonic spiritual ideal.

I do however think that Cryptics appear when one lies, or at least when someone is untruthful to themselves. I think that their attraction to their Proto-Radiant is similar in nature to how normal emotion and nature Spren are attracted,mthere are just less of them to do so and they can chose not to. Similar to how a human can chose not to eat or to sleep, but a animal follows their nature almost always.

I'm tired of arguing in circles, both of us don't have solid enough proof to convince eachother apperently. I've asked Brandon definitive answers on reddit and I will be back if he answers.

Anyways, Nedyah, it seems you are at least fairly new to the forums, welcome. You argue your points well, it's always nice to see new theorists on the forums. I'll get back to this thread soon, hopefully.

[Nedyah Drallid]

Thanks for asking Brandon, I agree, we are arguing in circles.

In your last post I have some points I disagree with, but if I pointed them out, it would just start circular arguing again. We will have to wait for Mr. Sanderson (Is that how we are supposed to address him? Brandon is too formal, whereas Brandon Sanderson is a mouthful to repeat. Sanderson sounds too vague.) to answer your questions.

Thanks for welcoming me to the Forums, I never thought my first post would start this particular discussion. Thank you for debating me.

[Magestar]

I think for a lot of your post you ment to say Pattern instead of Wyndle.

This is true.  Oops.  This is what happens when you post when you are overtired.

Edited May 23, 2016 by Magestar

[Argel]

In the forums he is usually reffered to as Brandon, which I think you meant to say is too informal. However, he likes having a fan base, and of course was a fan of e.g. Wheel of Time before he became a best selling author. So I have a feeling he doesn't mind it IRL either. Maybe someone that has been to conventions can corroborate that? I know in the transcripts he is usually also listed as "Brandon". Don't forget he is also a gamer, etc. too. So I have a feeling he's pretty informal about these things. Even if he secretly hated it which I 10000000000000% doubt, it would be smart business since an engaged fan base translates to more sales/guaranteed sales.

[Nedyah Drallid]

In the forums he is usually reffered to as Brandon, which I think you meant to say is too informal. However, he likes having a fan base, and of course was a fan of e.g. Wheel of Time before he became a best selling author. So I have a feeling he doesn't mind it IRL either. Maybe someone that has been to conventions can corroborate that? I know in the transcripts he is usually also listed as "Brandon". Don't forget he is also a gamer, etc. too. So I have a feeling he's pretty informal about these things. Even if he secretly hated it which I 10000000000000% doubt, it would be smart business since an engaged fan base translates to more sales/guaranteed sales.

That makes sense.

[CaptainRyan]

I agree, Nalan shows integrity and doesn't show dishonesty. But there were three parts to that definition. Nalan did not show fairness. To be fair, he would have had to hear their side, he couldn't just murder cobblers in the street.

 

While I understand that the general discussion between Nedyah Drallid and Blightsong is on hold, I would like to point out that Nalan does not, in my opinion, need to hear his victim's pleas in order to be "fair". Fairness could be that he treats all of his victims the same.

I, personally, think it is acceptable to describe Nalan's (and Taravangian's) actions as having integrity, honesty and fairness depending on how you define those terms. That is the crux of a lot of this discussion I think: we are not sure exactly how the terms Honor, Cultivation, Hatred, lie, integrity, honesty, fairness etc. are defined in-world and that means, depending on how we, as readers, define them it can lead to very different theories.

[Blightsong]

Ok, so I got a response from Brandon and its...

Non conclusive. We're both kind of right, you moreso, and he didn't really answer the question that was most relevant. WoB below, give me your thoughts.

from mistborn sent 28 minutes ago

Yes, the way humans perceive and personify spren has affected them. Beyond that, the sapient spren have all evolved as species, and have their own autonomy. But at the root of their motives, you'll find some aspect of Honor, Cultivation, or combination of the two.

permalinkdeletereportblock userreply

[Nedyah Drallid]

Ok, so I got a response from Brandon and its...

Non conclusive. We're both kind of right, you moreso, and he didn't really answer the question that was most relevant. WoB below, give me your thoughts.

from mistborn sent 28 minutes ago

Yes, the way humans perceive and personify spren has affected them. Beyond that, the sapient spren have all evolved as species, and have their own autonomy. But at the root of their motives, you'll find some aspect of Honor, Cultivation, or combination of the two.

permalinkdeletereportblock userreply

Thanks for asking Brandon and for debating with me, it was a true pleasure. This is actually a nice compromise between our points, do you think I could see the question you asked? I am just curious. Of course, this answer just leads to more possible theories about the original nature of spren, if you would be open to it, I would love to do a collaboration theory about that with you. Thank you for your time.

[Stormgate]

I think I may have figured out the relationship between truth, lies, and honor.

Shallan crafted intricate lies for herself to protect her from the trauma of killing not only her mother, but father as well. She also did everything she could do in order to drag her siblings out of the despair that was in her home. In a sense, she was lying to them and pretending that they were a normal family with normal interests. Her family was so desperately in need of relief that they were able, for a little bit, to become the people they wanted to be, but were forced to leave in exchange for damaging coping mechanisms like slowly killing animals and gambling. Making people believe that they are or could be better than they are is honorable in the sense of giving people who have accepted their lot in life hope, a bit of light into their gloomy existence.

Now, that's how lying and honor are linked. Now for truth and lies.

In WoR, Pattern compares the truth to a light, and lies to something casting a shadow in the light. These shadows can be beautiful and complicated, such as shadow puppets. However, Shallan, in covering up her past, effectively put a thick blanket over the light. In order to craft more and more beautiful and intricate lies, she needs to remove the lies she has woven around herself. Shadows are far more indistinct on an overcast day than on a clear day.

Basically, by removing the lies protecting herself, she is better able to tell people the lies they need. If she removes enough lies, she may be able to craft lies so brilliant that people change who they are, day by day, in an effort to become that beautiful lie.

[Confused]

The debate on this thread raises some interesting questions about the nature of spren and their relationship to their Shard's Mandate (Intent).

 

Mandates (Intents) and Spren Behavior

 

Many Forum dwellers assume a Shard’s Mandate (Intent) affects personal behavior. Honor’s Mandate (Intent) seems the most problematic – folks conclude that because Tanavast’s Shard is called “Honor,” then both spren made from Honor’s Investiture and their human hosts must act “honorably.” Whether “honorspren” can “lie” raises this question.

 

IMO Mandates’ function lies in magical expression, not personal expression. Honor’s Mandate is “bonding.” His magic joins things together, whether spren, people, other organisms, ideas or objects. The dictionary definition of “honor” IMO doesn’t necessarily apply to Mandates.

 

I think a different mechanism is responsible for Radiantspren behavior. As I wrote earlier this month citing some old and new WoBs, Radiantspren are a combination of two “lesser” spren AND (to quote Brandon) a “concept or an ideal mixed with an essence.” IMO the “concept or ideal” is what makes Radiantspren more or less “honorable,” not Honor’s Mandate.

 

Radiantspren are Splinters defined by human thought. I theorized in that post that each Radiantspren’s “concept or ideal” corresponds to their KR Orders’ Primary Divine Attribute. (A KR’s Secondary Divine Attribute IMO produces that special magic unique to each Order.)

 

All spren are “living ideas,” INVESTED ideas. Just like Investiture can infuse objects, it can also infuse ideas. Radiantspren, unlike other spren, don’t just personify natural phenomenon or emotion; they also personify some higher level “concept or ideal” – the Divine ideals: Protection, Justice, Bravery, Love, Learning, Creativity, Wisdom, Resoluteness, Dependability, and Piety.

 

To me, its self-evident that these higher level “concepts and ideals” change over time. Otherwise, we’d still be in caves worshipping the sun and the moon. These are not examples of Platonic forms like fire or emotion, as Bllightsong and Magestar suggest. Brandon’s confirmation in Blightsong’s most recent post – that “the way humans perceive and personify spren has affected them” – is unsurprising.

 

ASIDE: “Dialectical idealism” is the heart of Frederic Hegel’s “philosophy of history”: start with an idea or ideology (a “thesis”); others object with an opposing ideology (an “antithesis”); and agreement is ultimately reached somewhere in-between (a “synthesis”). The synthesis becomes the new ideology that re-starts the dialectical process. Karl Marx adapted Hegel’s dialectic to apply it to the material world: Marx concluded that “dialectical materialism” – changes in how societies organize economic behavior, as opposed to how they think – is the driving force of history.

 

I assert in my recent post that thought changes over time affect Radiantspren themselves – and their host Surgebinders. When asked whether KR oaths are consciously chosen or occur naturally, Brandon answered, “They are a natural outgrowth of the spren, but the spren are a natural outgrowth of human's perception of natural forces…” (Source, almost halfway down Blightsong’s post, emphasis added.) The nature of Radiantspren at any time is thus mutually interdependent with the human thought that gives Radiantspren definition.

 

That’s why Surgebinders fought each other in Alakavish’s war against Nohadon. Surgebinders before the in-world WoK were not bound by the same ideals that Nohadon’s book later instilled into Surgebinders. Surgebinder spren in Nohadon’s time represented different “concepts or ideals” than did KR Radiantspren.

 

Can “Spren of Honor” Lie?

 

In a WoB at the end of one of Blightsong’s posts, Brandon says

 

I don't call the shards good and evil. There are no good and evil shards in my opinion, like and so, what evil and what's not evil can totally have spren of honor that you would consider evil. They have free will, but they are much more limited. It is very hard, or impossible, for them to lie but they can be cruel.

 

I read this WoB as referring specifically to the “spren of honor that you would consider evil” because “they can be cruel.” IOW, I think Brandon refers to “highspren,” Skybreaker spren. Highspren’s “concept/ideal” is Justice. We would expect spren dedicated to Justice not to lie. Other Radiantspren may be perfectly capable of lying, depending on their Primary Divine Attribute. Syl herself, an “honorspren” whose Attribute is Protection, may well lie on occasion, if necessary to protect.

 

Brandon also tells us that spren have their own personalities and behaviors (at [14:53]) independent of their Shard’s Mandate. That’s why highspren may act “cruelly” despite being bound by their defining Primary Divine Attribute of Justice. Justice can be cruel, as Nale shows throughout WoR. (Does this mean Nale tells the truth when he says Surgebinders cause the Desolations?)

 

FWIW Pattern IMO did NOT lie to Shallan. He merely distracted her from pursuing his thought. A “lie” is a factual misstatement. It is not an opinion or, as in this case, a statement about what Pattern is thinking. (Please don’t debate this point – it’s not important and just my view of things.) But Pattern is certainly capable of lying and, as Pathfinder and Stormgate both point out, lies are the shadow that illuminate the truth.

 

Wyndle Is a “Cultivation” Spren – As Are ALL Radiantspren

 

Yes, Wyndle is a “Cultivation spren.” Just about ALL Radiantspren are “Cultivation spren,” in the sense they bind natural phenomenon, that is, the Surges. As Blightsong notes, the Surges are the “fundamental forces” of Roshar modified by magical influence.

 

“Maybe creationspren is ‘emotional’ and Transformation and Illumination have some emotional element to them” (from my recent post). But that assumes art does not derive from naturally occurring “patterns,” which is a philosophical issue: “True Wit is Nature to advantage dress'd / What oft was thought, but ne'er so well express'd” (Alexander Pope, “An Essay on Criticism,” 1709).

 

My recent post posits that each Radiantspren is comprised of two “lesser” spren – “two of the ‘smaller’ magic systems in this world” (Source, Q 3). Each “lesser” spren provides a single Surgebinding. An “honorspren” binds the Surges of Gravitation and Adhesion. Those spren are gravityspren and windspren. IMO the concept of Protection (the Windrunners’ Primary Divine Attribute) combines these two spren into an honorspren.

 

Honor’s main contribution to Radiantspren is as the glue. Honor binds lesser spren together, binds the newly combined spren to their Divine Primary Attribute, and binds the Radiantspren to Surgebinders to make KR through the Nahel bond. The underlying lesser spren, however, do all seem to come from Cultivation. They are more or less “honor-y” based on their “concept or ideal,” not Honor’s Mandate.

 

Mandates (Intents) and Magic Systems

 

One final thought raised by this thread. Blightsong quotes the August 31, 2011 Reddit AMA as follows:

 

One of the 'basics' of the magic in all of the worlds is that the energy of Shards can fuel all kinds of interactions, not just interactions based on their personality/role. I did this because otherwise, the Magics would all be extremely limited.

 

The “role” of the Shard has to do with the WAY the magic is obtained, not what it can do. So, in Preservation's case, the magic is a gift—allowing a person to preserve their own strength, and rely upon the strength granted by the magic. While Hemalurgy has a huge cost, ending in net entropy.

 

Brandon’s statement that Mandates – “personality/role” – only affect “the WAY the magic is obtained,” but not “what [a Shard] can do” is curious. Brandon’s statement is arguably inconsistent with a later WoB that Magic Systems are a function of a Shard’s interaction with its Shardworld. If the only difference between Shards is “the WAY the magic is obtained, not what it can do,” then the full burden of magical diversity would fall on the Shardworlds alone. Why would a Shardworld with multiple Shards have more than one Magic System with different magical effects?

 

I think Brandon’s statement means that Shards are not precluded by their Mandate from performing specific magical acts. Ruin’s “energy,” for example, “can fuel all kinds of interactions, not just interactions based on their personality/role.” Otherwise, Ruin’s magic would be limited to “ruining” things – decay and destruction – when his magic does more than that.  As just one instance, burning atium enables future sight, hardly a destructive act in itself, although Elend and his band used it for that purpose.

 

Maybe this is obvious, and I’m clarifying something you all understand. I’ve often seen this statement quoted. But the key sentence certainly got me thinking…

Edited May 24, 2016 by Confused

[Magestar]

The debate on this thread raises some interesting questions.

Yes it did.  

 

And here are, in no particular order, my thoughts on what you have said.  You really like posting long theories, huh?

 

Can “Spren of Honor” Lie?

 

In a WoB at the end of one of Blightsong’s posts, Brandon says

 

I don't call the shards good and evil. There are no good and evil shards in my opinion, like and so, what evil and what's not evil can totally have spren of honor that you would consider evil. They have free will, but they are much more limited. It is very hard, or impossible, for them to lie but they can be cruel.

 

Syl herself, an “honorspren” whose Attribute is Protection, may well lie on occasion, if necessary to protect.

 

Brandon also tells us that spren have their own personalities and behaviors (at [14:53]) independent of their Shard’s Mandate. That’s why highspren may act “cruelly” despite being bound by their defining Primary Divine Attribute of Justice. Justice can be cruel, as Nale shows throughout WoR. (Does this mean Nale tells the truth when he says Surgebinders cause the Desolations?)

 

FWIW Pattern IMO did NOT lie to Shallan. He merely distracted her from pursuing his thought. A “lie” is a factual misstatement. It is not an opinion or, as in this case, a statement about what Pattern is thinking. (Please don’t debate this point – it’s not important and just my view of things.) But Pattern is certainly capable of lying and, as Pathfinder and Stormgate both point out, lies are the shadow that illuminate the truth.

 

My recent post posits that each Radiantspren is comprised of two “lesser” spren – “two of the ‘smaller’ magic systems in this world” (Source, Q 3). Each “lesser” spren provides a single Surgebinding. An “honorspren” binds the Surges of Gravitation and Adhesion. Those spren are gravityspren and windspren. IMO the concept of Protection (the Windrunners’ Primary Divine Attribute) combines these two spren into an honorspren.

 

Honor’s main contribution to Radiantspren is as the glue. Honor binds lesser spren together, binds the newly combined spren to their Divine Primary Attribute, and binds the Radiantspren to Surgebinders to make KR through the Nahel bond. The underlying lesser spren, however, do all seem to come from Cultivation. They are more or less “honor-y” based on their “concept or ideal,” not Honor’s Mandate.

 

I agree that 'Honorspren' can lie.   Interestingly enough, I did an essay on lying  ( Whether it is Good, Bad, or Neutral.) recently, and personally I beleive that it could be 'good' or 'honorable' to lie in certain circumstances.    I also sort of agree that Pattern did not really lie, however, he definitely tried to deveive Shallan.  She even said 'You lied to me!' 

 

The sentence 'lies are the shadow that illuminate the truth.' is odd.  I think you meant something like 'Lies are the shadow illuminated by the truth' or something.  

 

I agree that Honor is mostly the glue, but he definitely boosts power.  While gravity spren appear when something - gravity-y?- happens, usually there are a lot of them  and by themselves, they could not 'control' gravity.  Also, he allows for stormlight intake, and a few other things. I am sure cultivation also provides some stuff.

 

 

 

“Maybe creationspren is ‘emotional’ and Transformation and Illumination have some emotional element to them” (from my recent post).

 

My recent post posits that each Radiantspren is comprised of two “lesser” spren – “two of the ‘smaller’ magic systems in this world” (Source, Q 3). Each “lesser” spren provides a single Surgebinding. An “honorspren” binds the Surges of Gravitation and Adhesion. Those spren are gravityspren and windspren. IMO the concept of Protection (the Windrunners’ Primary Divine Attribute) combines these two spren into an honorspren.

 

Honor’s main contribution to Radiantspren is as the glue. Honor binds lesser spren together, binds the newly combined spren to their Divine Primary Attribute, and binds the Radiantspren to Surgebinders to make KR through the Nahel bond. The underlying lesser spren, however, do all seem to come from Cultivation. They are more or less “honor-y” based on their “concept or ideal,” not Honor’s Mandate.

 

 

I beleive you are using Honorspren to mean spren for Windrunners, when all Surgebinder spren are Honorspren, as per the idea that the suregbinder spren are of both Honor and Cultivation.  I think oyu made the same mistake with highspren, saying they are only for Skybreakers, when I though (Personally.)  Highspren were any spren who could think properly.  Or something similar.

 

Mandates (Intents) and Magic Systems

 

One final thought raised by this thread. Blightsong quotes the August 31, 2011 Reddit AMA as follows:

 

One of the 'basics' of the magic in all of the worlds is that the energy of Shards can fuel all kinds of interactions, not just interactions based on their personality/role. I did this because otherwise, the Magics would all be extremely limited.

 

The “role” of the Shard has to do with the WAY the magic is obtained, not what it can do. So, in Preservation's case, the magic is a gift—allowing a person to preserve their own strength, and rely upon the strength granted by the magic. While Hemalurgy has a huge cost, ending in net entropy.

 

Brandon’s statement that Mandates – “personality/role” – only affect “the WAY the magic is obtained,” but not “what [a Shard] can do” is curious. Brandon’s statement is arguably inconsistent with a later WoB that Magic Systems are a function of a Shard’s interaction with its Shardworld. If the only difference between Shards is “the WAY the magic is obtained, not what it can do,” then the full burden of magical diversity would fall on the Shardworlds alone. Why would a Shardworld with multiple Shards have more than one Magic System with different magical effects?

 

I think Brandon’s statement means that Shards are not precluded by their Mandate from performing specific magical acts. Ruin’s “energy,” for example, “can fuel all kinds of interactions, not just interactions based on their personality/role.” Otherwise, Ruin’s magic would be limited to “ruining” things – decay and destruction – when his magic does more than that.  As just one instance, burning atium enables future sight, hardly a destructive act in itself, although Elend and his band used it for that purpose.

 

 

This seems very interesting, however, there is no proof for your statements.  Also, I think this is worded oddly, and I may be misunderstanding it.   Are you saying that a Shards intent does affect it's magic systems?  If so, how?  Also, it may be that a Shards original personality affetcs it magic systems.  Something to think about.

 

 

Wyndle Is a “Cultivation” Spren – As Are ALL Radiantspren

 

Yes, Wyndle is a “Cultivation spren.” Just about ALL Radiantspren are “Cultivation spren,” in the sense they bind natural phenomenon, that is, the Surges. As Blightsong notes, the Surges are the “fundamental forces” of Roshar modified by magical influence.

This is true.  I said this as well.  I am not sure whether this is said in the books or not.

 

 

To me, its self-evident that these higher level “concepts and ideals” change over time. Otherwise, we’d still be in caves worshipping the sun and the moon. These are not examples of Platonic forms like fire or emotion, as Bllightsong and Magestar suggest. Brandon’s confirmation in Blightsong’s most recent post – that “the way humans perceive and personify spren has affected them” – is unsurprising.

 

I also agree that some concepts can change over time.  For instance, depending on what  is considered 'glorious' by the culture, gloryspren could appear at different times.  However, i doubt certain fundamentals (Ragespren, for instance) would really change.  Also the shard of Honor, for the whole cosmere, is not likely to be changed much by one planets definition.  I find it unlikely that it would realy change at all, instead representing one, universal, Honor example.

 

 

Also... Brandon said that spren were based off of Platonic Ideals/Forms.

 

 

INTERVIEW: Mar 21st, 2014

WOR Signing Report - Kurkistan (Verbatim)

KURKISTAN

Are flamespren, are they all doing their own thing, or is there some Ideal of "Fire" sitting in the Spiritual Realm that they're all based on?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Each spren is based on the Ideal of Fire.

KURKISTAN

And is that sitting in the Spiritual Realm?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Yes, we're using sort of a Platonic Ideal, and that concept is in force, so < sounds hesitant > "yes", but [spren] are manifestations of it.

TAGS

Brandon on terminology,

 

 

 

Maybe this is obvious, and I’m clarifying something you all understand. I’ve often seen this statement quoted. But the key sentence certainly got me thinking…

 

 

Some things we definitely knew.  But you summarized everything nicely, and brought some new ideas to the table.  Have an upvote.

 

And the whole thing makes me think, it was really intellectually stimulating.  

 

 

Also, forgive me if I make mistakes, or repeat myself, or say/spell things wrong/oddly. I took a long time writing this, and was interupted a few times.  Because of this I likely forgot some things I already said, or said some things that I did not mean.

Edited May 24, 2016 by Magestar

[Nedyah Drallid]

I have to say I disagree with Magestar, (this was too confusing and spread out to quote.)

You say all Radiantspren are Highspren, but I wonder where you got this idea. When Brandon Sanderson refers to Radiantspren, he calls them Sapientspren, not Highspren. Also, Syl at one point says, when Kaladin asks her if she would be against breaking the law, she says that she is not a highspren.

 

Now, in disagreeing with both Magestar and Confused. I believe each sapient spren has its own name. For instance, not every spren is called an honor spren. So far we have Honorspren, Cryptics, Shadowspren, Stormfather, (presumably something to do with) Lightspren, and (possible) Cultivationspren. I think each of these is actually a seperate spren. I believe that, just as Syl is the Honorspren, Wyndle is the Cultivationspren. 

 

Finally, on to Confused's theory, I don't think that your theory is true, primarily because it doesn't make sense. You say bindspren (adhesion) and windspren (gravitation) combined to form Syl, the problem with that is, what do windspren have to do with gravitation? I think, at this stage in the series, it is slightly grasping at straws.

[Magestar]

I have to say I disagree with Magestar, (this was too confusing and spread out to quote.)

You say all Radiantspren are Highspren, but I wonder where you got this idea. When Brandon Sanderson refers to Radiantspren, he calls them Sapientspren, not Highspren. Also, Syl at one point says, when Kaladin asks her if she would be against breaking the law, she says that she is not a highspren.

Do you have a WoB for the Sapientspren thing?  I personally have never seen it.  I am fully aware that I could be wrong.

 

Finally, on to Confused's theory, I don't think that your theory is true, primarily because it doesn't make sense. You say bindspren (adhesion) and windspren (gravitation) combined to form Syl, the problem with that is, what do windspren have to do with gravitation? I think, at this stage in the series, it is slightly grasping at straws.

You are probably right about the fact that we do not have enough evidence from to books to find a conclusive answer to these questions.  However, it is fun to theorize, and I, personally, like confused's idea that two spren combine to form a (Highspren? Sapientspren?).  However, if we say two, why stop there?  We could have several different spren combining to form Surgebinding/Sapient/High spren.

We could even have both emotion spren (from Honor) and physical spren (from Cultivation.) combining to give the effect that Surgebinding/Sapient/High spren give.  

 

Now, in disagreeing with both Magestar and Confused. I believe each sapient spren has its own name. For instance, not every spren is called an honor spren. So far we have Honorspren, Cryptics, Shadowspren, Stormfather, (presumably something to do with) Lightspren, and (possible) Cultivationspren. I think each of these is actually a seperate spren. I believe that, just as Syl is the Honorspren, Wyndle is the Cultivationspren. 

 

As I said above, if Confused's posit about spren combining to make Surgebinding/Sapient/High spren is true, than it is possible that Syl and Wyndle are both Honorspren and Cultivationspren, combined.  As I stated, I really have no solid evidence for this.  I just think it is a cool idea.  Also, he actually used Highspren for Skybreaker spren and Honorspren for spren like Syl.  So I was disagreeing with him, and you.  He actually said what you are saying.

 

However, if what you stated is true, and Honorspren IS the name for all spren like Syl, and Cultivstionspren is the name for spren like Wyndle, then alL I have said is wrong.  It also opens up a whole host of new questions.  Why are so-called 'Highspren'  higher than normal spren?  Are they Skybreaker spren, or are they the somehow the Hierarchy of the spren?  Maybe the ones who 'sent' Pattern to study humans?  I feel that, if spren can take on personalities, and change, that they may have formed some sort of goverment.

 

Finally, I have to say that, in a series with so much content, and only two books published, it would be rash to think we will get very far trying to theorize about these things.  This is not to say 'Stop trying.', for who knows?  Maybe we will latch onto a theory that has real merit.  Also, Nedyah.  You said, quite blatantly, that Confused and I were wrong about several points.  If you disagree with the ideas we preseneted, do you perhaps have some of your own you would like to put forth on the subject?  Also, I do not beleive that you provided any concrete evidence disproving Confused's theory.  I understand that it is too early to say it is certainly right, but we do not, as of yet, have any evidence saying it is false.

 

 

Edit:  I looked into the Highspren Honorspren thing, and the Wiki agrees with you two.  So, at least on that bit, I was wrong.  C'est la vie.  It really does not effect the overall scheme of the theories.  Another interesting note is that the  wiki calls the Spren for light weavers Cryptics, not liespren whatsoever.  It even says that Brandon called them 'Truthspren' before they were called Cryptics.

Edited May 25, 2016 by Magestar

[Nedyah Drallid]

Ok, so I got a response from Brandon and its...

from mistborn sent 28 minutes ago

Yes, the way humans perceive and personify spren has affected them. Beyond that, the sapient spren have all evolved as species, and have their own autonomy. But at the root of their motives, you'll find some aspect of Honor, Cultivation, or combination of the two.

permalinkdeletereportblock userreply

Here is where he calls them sapient spren. 

 

Sorry about saying I disagreed with Confused, I read both of your posts at the same time and got a little confused as to who said what.

 

I always felt like highspren was another way to say arrogantspren, i.e. we are better than all of youspren. Or it could also mean law abiding.

 

My impression, which I am totally aware could be wrong, was that there were actually multiple nations in Shadesmar, with two of the biggest being Honorspren and Cryptics. (The non-sapient spren I assumed were all just animals like exhaustionspren.)

 

Sorry if I sounded rude, that was not my intention at all. I was just saying that I disagreed with those theories and why I think they are wrong. When I said that I think Confused's theory was wrong, I meant that I think it is wrong in at least it's current form, and can't be proved or disproved until at least another book. I think it is wrong because windspren don't make sense to me. I definately think that there is some truth behind it, but it is not a full theory yet. Sorry if I offended anyone with my comments.

 

Truthspren makes more sense to me than liespren, especially since liespren is a derogatory term.

[Magestar]

Sorry about saying I disagreed with Confused, I read both of your posts at the same time and got a little confused as to who said what.

It is not really something to worry about, at least in my opinion.  I certainly am not bothered, although I do not claim to know what others think.  

 

 

I always felt like highspren was another way to say arrogantspren, i.e. we are better than all of youspren. Or it could also mean law abiding.

 

My impression, which I am totally aware could be wrong, was that there were actually multiple nations in Shadesmar, with two of the biggest being Honorspren and Cryptics. (The non-sapient spren I assumed were all just animals like exhaustionspren.)

 

I agree.  Also, I beleive you are right about spren having a society of some sort, maybe even different nations.  Perhaps 'highspren' are the goverment of said society?  Or possibly the military police, like the skybreakers may have been?  During the passages with the cryptics, and Shallan and Pattern, I always got the impression of government.

 

 

Sorry if I sounded rude, that was not my intention at all. I was just saying that I disagreed with those theories and why I think they are wrong. When I said that I think Confused's theory was wrong, I meant that I think it is wrong in at least it's current form, and can't be proved or disproved until at least another book. I think it is wrong because windspren don't make sense to me. I definately think that there is some truth behind it, but it is not a full theory yet. Sorry if I offended anyone with my comments.

 

I would love to here what Nedyah and Confused think of the idea that multiple (more than just two.) spren combine to form sapient spren.  It may also be possible that Sapient spren are just spren who have been superboosted by Honor/Cultivation.

[Blightsong]

I agree with most of what Confused said. I also do want to point out that the WoB about lying specifically relates to Windrunner Spren. The question I asked was about Windrunner Spren and most of that answer was as well. I don't think the tone converted well to text, but the conversation was specifically about Windrunner Spren.

As for different shards creating different magic systems with different affects on the same planet, I think you are mistaken. These different magics, like Elantrians and Soulforgery, are the same magic system in the way that Gravitation and Ilumination are the same magic. They are part of the same magic set but have different effect, giving the illusion of different magic. I assume this also goes for the magic on Scadrial.

As for Spren and how they have changed, this is how I have interpreted it; there is a platonic ideal that all these Spren are based off of. The change that we see occur in the Spren are dependent on how humans perceive that platonic ideal and how they personify it. So the template is the same but how the template is seen changes and evolves. This is why I don't think that the nature of these Spren could have changed too much.

[Nedyah Drallid]

As for Spren and how they have changed, this is how I have interpreted it; there is a platonic ideal that all these Spren are based off of. The change that we see occur in the Spren are dependent on how humans perceive that platonic ideal and how they personify it. So the template is the same but how the template is seen changes and evolves. This is why I don't think that the nature of these Spren could have changed too much.

I disagree with you here. I think an idea can change drastically. Look up words that have changed meaning in google and you will find heaps of lists of words that have, in some cases, completely opposite meaning. You say that you don't think spren could have changed too much, but humans will twist beyond recognition anything they get their hands on. So I think it could mean something totally different after so long. i.e.- flamespren could have previously meant heatspren or lightspren or even chemical reactionspren. Over time, they got personified by fire and became firespren.

 

By the way, it recently came to my attention that sometimes when I write I come off as being rude. This is not my intention, I am merely trying to argue my point, and, living where I do, I don't get many chances to debate. Sorry if I have ever offended you.

[Blightsong]

I disagree with you here. I think an idea can change drastically. Look up words that have changed meaning in google and you will find heaps of lists of words that have, in some cases, completely opposite meaning. You say that you don't think spren could have changed too much, but humans will twist beyond recognition anything they get their hands on. So I think it could mean something totally different after so long. i.e.- flamespren could have previously meant heatspren or lightspren or even chemical reactionspren. Over time, they got personified by fire and became firespren.

 

By the way, it recently came to my attention that sometimes when I write I come off as being rude. This is not my intention, I am merely trying to argue my point, and, living where I do, I don't get many chances to debate. Sorry if I have ever offended you.

I actually have the same problem, don't worry about it.

I don't think that the words used to describe the Spren are particularly relevant. Yes, word's meanings often change but they aren't based off of words, they are based off of unchanging ideals (this is WoB supported). It isn't this ideal that changes but how people view it. This can be drastic but only to a certain degree. This is why Brandon said that you will always find Honor or Cultivation at the root of their motives.

[Confused]

MAGESTAR asked the following questions and raised the following issues:

 

1. “Are you saying that a Shard’s intent does affect its magic systems?  If so, how?”  

2. “Also, it may be that a Shard’s original personality affects its magic systems.”

3. Spren, Ideas and “Platonic ideals”

4. Can Multiple Spren Combine?

 

1. Shard’s Mandate and Its Magic System

 

Yes, a Shard’s Mandate (“intent”) absolutely affects its Magic System. I use the word “Mandate” instead of “intent” because Sazed uses “Mandate” to describe this concept in HoA. If you look up both words in the “Cosmere Glossary” linked in my footer, you can read about this.

 

Brandon has said that, on Major Shardworlds, each unique Magic System is formed by the interaction of the resident Shard with its Shardworld. IMO the only difference among Shards is their Mandate and the disparate effects that flow from their Mandate.

 

The Shattering created sixteen Shards that started with equal power. Each Shard was made from Adonalsium’s original, un-Mandated power. Pre-Shattering there was only one Magic System – Adonalsium’s. The Shattering caused Mandates to attach to the Shards (implied by an HoA epigraph).

 

Mandates IMO affect (i) the means of becoming a Magic User (Endowment endows Breath/Divine Breath, Honor relies on the Nahel bond); (ii) the means of accessing magic (ingesting metal, infusing Stormlight, drawing an Aon); and (iii) the magical effects each unique Magic System creates (steelpushing, Elsecalling, Awakening).

 

Look at Mandates on Shardworlds with multiple Shards. Both Voidbinding and Surgebinding can give Magic Users future sight (the Death Rattles and Truthwatching), but they are clearly different magics. Lightweaving compares with what the Midnight Mother does – both create 3-D images. Since Voidbinding and Surgebinding are both Rosharan magics, the only thing that distinguishes them is the Mandate of the empowering Shard.

 

2. Shard’s Personality and Its Magic System

 

I assume you define a “Shard’s original personality” as the personality of the mortal Vessel who acquired the Shard. An HoA epigraph makes clear that Ruin and Preservation’s power originally had no personality attached to it. To me, that epigraph proves that Adonalsium had no personality when he wielded the power. The only personality a Shard has must come from its Vessel.

 

Brandon has said that a Shard’s Mandate will over time dominate the Vessel’s personality. Ati becomes Ruin. Rayse, who was always hateful, becomes more so as Odium. A Shard can fight against its Mandate’s compulsion, as Sazed is now doing as Harmony, but the fight grows increasingly hard.

 

The answer to your second question is, therefore, “no,” the “Shard’s original personality” has no effect on its Magic System.

 

3. Spren, Ideas and Platonic Ideals

 

Spren are Platonic Ideals. But even Platonic Ideals change over time. And Plato never finalized his theory because of its squishiness at the edges. How do you distinguish a “flamespren” from a “forest fire spren”? Which part of the human body corresponds to its Platonic form? The whole body? Each organ separately? (Only if interested or needing to fall asleep, you may want to read my post, “Plato, Spinoza and Jung’s Contributions to Realmatic Theory.”)

 

Is Honor a “universal concept”? Even Kaladin notes the Alethi lack of honor (despite their thinking they possess it) compared with listener honor. On earth alone, there are many cultural concepts of honor. I don’t know why you think the Cosmere would have only one concept.

 

As emotions are biochemical, I agree that emotion spren are likely unchanging. But the motivation to feel an emotion – what causes one to cry, for example – may also be culturally unique. As the social anthropologist Clifford Geertz noted [paraphrasing], “when is a wink an intended communication, and when is it simply an eye tic?”

 

4. Can Multiple Spren Combine?

 

I suppose this is theoretically possible, but it would go beyond Radiantspren. Look again at the recent post I wrote about spren combination and the WoBs cited there. Brandon only talks about combining “two” Magic Systems.

 

NEDYAH DRALLID raised these questions:

 

A. You opined that “sapient spren” is the proper name for Radiantspren.

B. You questioned whether windspren or bindspren binds the Adhesion Surge.

 

A. Meaning of “Sapient Spren”

 

I think Brandon’s response to Blightsong was not intended to limit the group of “sapient spren” to Radiantspren. Brandon often uses that term to distinguish between independently thinking, judgment-forming spren and their “lesser” merely sentient cousins like windspren, etc. He says in the newest WoB (April 2016) quoted in my recent post that sapient spren have their own personalities and behaviors. That presumably is why they also have their own cities and societies.

 

There are sapient spren that are not Radiantspren. The Stormfather and Nightwatcher are not Radiantspren, yet they are sapient. (While the Stormfather is bonded to Dalinar, a bondsmith’s Adhesion Surge comes from windspren or bindspren – see below – and its Tension Surge comes from whatever spren enables binding the Tension Surge.) Cucinesh (the Iri harbor spren) is likely sapient. The “mindful” Unmade carry an Odium Splinter – they are likely sapient. Seons and Skaze – the closest thing to spren not on Roshar – are sapient.

 

IOW, all Radiantspren are sapient, but not all “sapient spren” are Radiantspren.

 

B. Windspren vs. Bindspren

 

You questioned which spren binds the Adhesion Surge. I thought it was windspren. You say bindspren. Now I’m unsure.

 

In one of the cited WoBs in the linked post I keep referencing, Brandon calls Adhesion “Pressure,” his original name for that Surge. “Pressure” reflects the Surge’s genesis as WIND pressure – the ability to create vacuums, for example, causing objects to Adhere.

 

Syl refers to windspren as her “cousins.” Many posters speculate that Kaladin’s fighting prowess derives from his ability to feel wind currents and sword movements – why he feels he sometimes doesn’t need his eyes to fight. Another theory speculates that Windrunners’ Shardplate is formed by windspren.

 

But Syl herself refers to “bindspren” when Kaladin first lashes a rock to a wall. (WoK Chapter 57 (Kindle p. 796.) The bindspren are “dark blue and shaped like little splashes of ink.” It’s possible that bindspren are another name for windspren, at least in their grounded form. Or maybe two spren can bind the same Surge, and only human perception causes the spren to appear differently. Or maybe Brandon just changed his mind about the appropriate spren.

 

The short answer is, IDK…

 

BLIGHTSONG:

 

On reflection I now agree that any “spren of Honor” should find lying difficult or impossible. If Honor is the “God of Oaths,” as Syl says, then truth should be important to maintaining one’s oath. “Spren of honor” truthfulness does seem to be a function of Honor’s Mandate, rather than the “concepts or ideals” that define Radiantspren and their respective KR orders.

 

I also agree with how you characterize the relationship between Platonic ideals and human thought. Thought is generally evolutionary rather than revolutionary. But even evolutionary changes can be substantial over time.

 

The 20^th century philosopher Ludwig Wittgenstein developed a philosophy of language that concludes that words define our reality, rather than merely reflect it. Until we place a name on something, we don’t notice its existence. Since words change rapidly over time, we would expect our definitions of reality to likewise change rapidly.

 

Consider changes in the English language over the past 600 years. Chaucer wrote his Canterbury Tales around 1400. Here are the opening lines in Chaucer’s Middle English:

 

When that Aprille with his shoures soote

The droghte of Marche hath perced to the roote,

And bathed every veyne in swich licour,

Of which vertu engendred is the flour…

 

This is how it reads in Modern English (in one translation):

 

When fair April with his showers sweet,
Has pierced the drought of March to the root's feet
And bathed each vein in liquid of such power,
Its strength creates the newly springing flower…

 

Imagine how thought might have changed since Aharietiam, some 4,500 years ago! On earth, we were reading hieroglyphics back then and believed the sun revolved around the earth. So while I agree with your Platonic model, I concur with Nedyah Drallid and think it’s possible for spren to have changed quite a bit over the millennia, even if their motivations remain rooted by Honor and Cultivation’s respective Mandates.

 

Finally, Blightsong, I think our different characterization of Magic Systems is mostly semantic, since I see no practical effect from our differences. I’ve always believed that all Magic Systems are just variations of Adonalsium’s original magic, since they use the same Powers of Creation to alter Connections. The interaction of Mandates with Shardworlds causes these variations.

 

But the variations are real, even within a single Shardworld. Brandon states that Scadrial has three Magic Systems – two from each Shard and one produced by both Shards. He’s also said that Sel only has one – presumably because the Dor fuels all Selish magic. And he’s said that Roshar has three: Voidbinding, Surgebinding, and fabrial-based magic – plus the “weird” Old Magic.” Also note that one of the recent Ars Arcana (I forget which book’s) refers to “different investitures” fueling different magic.

 

So classification of Magic Systems is an untrustworthy pursuit. Personally I don’t think it matters what we call them…

 

* * * * * * *

 

Regards, all!

Edited May 27, 2016 by Confused

[happyman]

It's probably relevant to this conversation to note that the spiritual realm is called a "timeless place" when described in the books.  It's strongly implied that time is relevant only in the cognitive and physical realms.

 

Since Spren are primarily cognitive, this means that they can change.  I'm guessing, though, that part of them is anchored to the spiritual realm, due to being a small part of Adonalsium, and thus are at least partly timeless.  Thus if words manage to completely flip meanings, I doubt that the Spren will go all the way.

[Jondesu]

I have to correct one thing, Confused. Brandon has stated fairly unambiguously that the Shard's Mandate (I think he used intent in the WoB, but I like the Mandate term too) only really affects how you gain access to the magic, not what it can do. My view from the WoB's I've seen plus in-world clues is that the Shard provides the method of Initiation, and in some cases provides a way to lose the power (ala Surgebinding), but the world and its foci in particular affect how to actually use the magic (metals on Scadrial, colors on Sel, etc) are an unconscious interaction between the Shard and the planet itself, and the Shard's Mandate doesn't play a role in what is possible with the magic system at all.

jW