theory An Possible Explanation for Taravangian's Diagram

[Eki]

Taravangian's plan might not be to fight the Voidbringers, but to hide or even escape. He wouldn't need every soldier then.

[Farnsworth]

This whole thing does seem like a classic Honor vs Cultivation thing. Cultivation wants to preserve things in the long run, and honor wants to do some grandiose thing.

[Argel]

Hiding where? Worldhop? Underground?

[Pathfinder]

Wasn't there a WoB somewhere that said that Ruin altering the words was something unique to him? Or that Odium couldn't do it?

[Stormgate]

I'm not sure if it's unique to Ruin, but Sanderson has said it isn't Odium's style.

[Eki]

Hiding where? Worldhop? Underground?

Something like that. Maybe he's found a non-Knight way of getting into Shadesmar. Or maybe he knows of some ancient disaster bunkers.

Although, if he was going to run or hide, he probably wouldn't try taking over the world...

[CaptainRyan]

Although, if he was going to run or hide, he probably wouldn't try taking over the world...

 

Unless he was trying to gather as many people as possible. If he is the ruler of everyone then, theoretically, he would be in a better position to get everyone going to the "safe space". (Yes, that is a joke about safe spaces)

[dvoraen]

In my theory, at least, the day of the diagram itself is a fabrication. Taravangian never actually gained incredible intelligence. He was controlled by Odium to scribble all he did, and then had his memory wiped. Odium knew that Taravangian had reason to believe in what he was writing and would thus follow through with it. Like I said, it's just my theory but it makes sense to me.

This is my general take on the Diagram as well, except for one thing:

 

Taravangian was the primary author, but his complete lack of compassion on that day opened him up to suggestions via Odium (or the Unmade?), who was (were) the secondary authors.  The whole thing with the Diagram makes me think of the Terris prophecies in Mistborn Era 1, which is to say manipulation buried within it.  If you go through every epigraph from the Diagram, there's a definitive change in tone on certain ones.  Some of them explicitly have instructions, and privileged knowledge on top of that:

 

- Identifying potential Radiants, and how a Nahel bonded individual could potentially develop further.  How would anyone alive know this for a fact, save for a Herald?

- Don't mind the Unmade; they're interesting but not important compared to kingship, even though they're Splinters of the antagonistic Shard.

- Moelach, the Death Rattles, and precognition of the future.  "Their words might save us."  ... Or are really giving the enemy an advantage on what is going to happen.  I'd be very surprised if Moelach wasn't aware of each and every Death Rattle given, and what was said and (more importantly) witnessed by the deceased.

- "Hold the secret that broke the Knight's Radiant."  Again, how would anyone know this?  More relevantly, why would anyone WANT to destroy the future orders when they return, since the spren are still heeding to the restrictions placed on the Nahel bond's development?  If Surgebinders were unrestricted as they once were, I could see this, but since they're still required to develop their Oaths/truths/other, the order to remove them from the game (again) is highly suspect.

- The instruction about Dalinar, but more importantly preventing Alethkar from solidifying its power.  Alethkar, which was once the country specializing in war and the one that kept vigil for signs of a Desolation; the one country in which the Radiants primarily lived.  Nothing important to see here!

 

I think you get the point.  The Diagram reeks of tampering.

Edited June 1, 2016 by dvoraen

[DrakeMarshall]

Well... I think we all agree that the nature of the diagram seems to imply some kind of shard's agenda. Not necessarily, but probably. These supernatural prescience came from a shard's power, after all... At a very minimum, the predictions could be warped by the source shard's intent and view of the world. Plus there is the fact that it looks like Taravangian is doing a lot of strange things that will really only make sense if all of these align with a shard's agenda.

Initially I had suspected that it was odium who had a hold on Taravangian. This is what a lot of you have voiced. It sort of lends itself to a train of thought similar to what ruin did to the prophecies, but I don't think Sanderson would recycle an idea like that. Actually, there might be a WoB out there that states that Rayse isn't pulling an Ati with Taravangian's diagram.

I don't think it actually is odium whose influence is most prominent here... First of all, there is the fact that Taravangian's initial curse/blessing was received from the nightwatcher, who we are all but certain is some kind of extension of cultivation.

Second of all, unlike honor, we aren't actually sure if cultivation is dead or not. That makes it more likely for cultivation to be pulling tricks like this.

Third of all, again, I don't think we can assume that honor and cultivation are in perfect accord. Their intents can not be the same, else they wouldn't form different shards. Now, currently that means there is an entire living shard on the planet whose agenda is completely not represented or accounted for, so far as we know. I think at least one of the characters we know of so far represents the agenda of cultivation. Taravangian just happens to be a good candidate since technically you could say his powers came from cultivation. Lift technically also has significant affiliation with cultivation, but she is also a surgebinder, which means she is actively serving honor... Plus we haven't seen her doing anything that seems inexplicable without an extra force in play. Taravangian, on the other hand, does plenty of things that require explaining. A mystery like Taravangian is a perfect place to hide the motives of a shard we weren't aware of yet. If there's anything we have learned from Hero of Ages and Secret History, it's that a lot of details and mysteries in the story tend to end up connecting to the struggles of resident shards...

So what actually is cultivation's agenda? This is a very good question. The struggles of odium and honor play out much more obviously in the story of Roshar. This is part of what makes me suspicious that Cultivation has some big plan in motion that we don't know about yet.

Bottom line is, I strongly suspect Taravangian is the most prominent representative of cultivation's interests that we have seen so far. He probably isn't aware of the fact, but I think he is a servant of cultivation.

[Landis963]

"Pulling an Ati" only refers to retconning the Diagram while it was being written,  which Ruin could do only because he was so Invested into Scadrial.   We know that Mr. T's major source of Intel is an Unmade, so we know Odium's influence is creeping in around the edges.

[Nyali]

13 hours ago, Landis963 said:

"Pulling an Ati" only refers to retconning the Diagram while it was being written,  which Ruin could do only because he was so Invested into Scadrial.   We know that Mr. T's major source of Intel is an Unmade, so we know Odium's influence is creeping in around the edges.

The thing that always struck me as funny was that the Diagram explicitly tells Mr. T not to trust the Death Rattles, they're just a distraction, so what does he do? Focuses on the Death Rattles  

Edited July 18, 2016 by Nyali

[Argel]

Why not mix the theories? The Diagram is of Cultivation, but Mr. T is being influenced to use it in ways that benefit Odium. No need to waste time tampering with the Diagram when you have putty, err, I mean, Mr. T to work with....  The Diagram could also be pure/correct but the deciphering could be where the corruption was introduced. I tend to favor "influenced by Odium after the fact" since it's cleaner (e.g. no "Cultivation and Odium were influencing him at the same time problems).

Edit: Plus, that line about the death rattles suggests The Diagram may be accurate but Mr. T's interpretation of it is off. Clue from Brandon?

Edited July 19, 2016 by Argel

[Patrick Star]

One idea that I've been throwing around in my head is that Taravangian's diagram may have the key to translating the Dawnsingers.

He did write it in a new language, after all.  And he did include a translation key.

So it may be some sort of common language, I guess.  Still playing around with it, and it seems kind of odd for nobody on his team to notice any similarities.

[+Authweight]

I don't think the Diagram comes directly from a Shard's intentional influence. I think it's more like the result of his request to the Nightwatcher, who follows certain rules that we don't fully understand. I don't think a Shard specifically decided to give T this specific ability - I think it was the logical outcome of what he asked for based on the Nightwatcher's rules.

My pet theory about T's ability is that his consciousness is being dragged between the cognitive realm and the spiritual realm. When he is pulled towards the cognitive realm, he loses his spiritual connection to other people, and with it his ability to empathize. When he is pulled towards the spiritual realm, his connection to others increases dramatically.

I also think that the Diagram was not the result of high intelligence. Instead, it was the result of being pulled so far into the spiritual realm that he could see the web of the future unfolding. Brandon has said that if one sees deeply enough into the spiritual realm, there's an "I see the stars!" sort of effect where the person undergoes some serious revelations. This is similar to something that happens in Hero of Ages

Spoiler

when Elend burns duralumin with atium.

I think T saw the future, but was totally disconnected from the cognitive realm when it happened, hence his wild, somewhat incoherent behavior and total lack of memory.

[CaptainRyan]

On 7/29/2016 at 4:29 PM, Authweight said:

I also think that the Diagram was not the result of high intelligence. Instead, it was the result of being pulled so far into the spiritual realm that he could see the web of the future unfolding.

I really like this idea. So far, Taravangian and, by extension, we have been assuming that the Diagram is the result of a day when he was super intelligent. We do not, however, see any signs of complete lack of empathy/ misunderstanding of how people react to manipulation. What if, instead of it being a day when he was super intelligent it was, instead, a day when he was super compassionate and, therefore, was very close to the Spiritual Realm! 

That would mean Taravangian's tests, which help his attendants decide when he can make decisions based on the Diagram, are actually backwards!

I am not sure how possible this idea is but I think it fits neatly with how Sanderson likes to have little surprises that completely change how we view a situation.

[Elenion]

I think that the Diagram is of Cultivation, and here's my evidence:

• The Knights Radiant are of Honor
• An ideal of the KR is "Journey before Destination"
• Taravangian chases his destination before considering the cost, the opposite of this ideal
• This leaves us with that Taravangian is either following Cultivation or Odium
• Odium, despite his love of death, wouldn't give Taravangian secrets that could be used to stop a Desolation, given that
• Desolations reek of Odium involvement, at least to me, so I conclude that
• Taravangian's Diagram is Cultivation's way to fight Odium's Desolations

[Complexityspren]

On 5/14/2016 at 11:23 PM, Nyali said:

My view on the Diagram is that the diagram foretells the future, and we keep getting told that foretelling the future is of him.

Put we were told that Mr. T wasn't really seeing the future, just making very educated guesses. To be fair, this is the way shards seem to predict the future which honor states cultivation is better at, lending further evidence to that theory.

[Radiant_Jaeger]

Just to add a thought Taravangian didnt wish for enough Intelligence to save the world, he wished for the capacity to save the world. 

We dont know if this is apathetic genius or dull compassion or through his actions the acts of others (basically helping  He world by uniting it against himself) 

Capacity can be anything

[Complexityspren]

5 hours ago, Radiant_Jaeger said:

Capacity can be anything

Might not the compassion and intelligence be the curse, while the actual 'capacity' is something else entirely?

The wording is vague enough that this could be conceivable.

[The One Who Connects]

7 minutes ago, Complexityspren said:

Might not the compassion and intelligence be the curse, while the actual 'capacity' is something else entirely?

The wording is vague enough that this could be conceivable.

At the risk of sounding like the inane ideas in the "Boon/Bane Game" thread, perhaps the combination of intelligence and compassion is the "Capacity," with one tempering the other, and his bane is that he cannot be both at once?

[Radiant_Jaeger]

4 hours ago, The One Who Connects said:

At the risk of sounding like the inane ideas in the "Boon/Bane Game" thread, perhaps the combination of intelligence and compassion is the "Capacity," with one tempering the other, and his bane is that he cannot be both at once?

You risked too much. That would make the wish completely useless which we know doesn't happen because of the one character who works for

Spoiler

Shallash

talks about the old magic and how the NightWatcher doesn't twist your words for the wish. You get what you wish for is what I understood this to be.

[Calderis]

1 hour ago, Radiant_Jaeger said:

You risked too much. That would make the wish completely useless which we know doesn't happen because of the one character who works for

  Hide contents

Shallash

talks about the old magic and how the NightWatcher doesn't twist your words for the wish. You get what you wish for is what I understood this to be.

Baxil and the other guy make it pretty clear, you get what the Nightwatcher thinks you deserve. There's no guarantee you get what you ask for. Lift is a greater example. She got something, but her desire not to change... Not really. 

Taravangian asking for the capacity to save the world, thinks he got what he wanted. Who knows what the Nightwatcher felt he deserved though. 

[The One Who Connects]

10 hours ago, Radiant_Jaeger said:

That would make the wish completely useless which we know doesn't happen

I disagree. That bane would give the Boon meaning and prevent it from being an "instant-win button," as it were.

He comes up with a great many ideas during his "better" days, some of which are why he gets confined to his quarters. Were he a more compassionate person at the time, he would realize that telling the stupid to commit suicide is a bad idea.

It stands to reason that he also comes up with ideas on his "worse" days, many of which would be kind-hearted ideals, but not necessarily smart choices. Remember, he gets confined to quarters on his very compassionate days too. Had he written his ideas down so he could interpret them on a smarter day, he could realize the issues himself and gain new perspectives, maybe even figure out a way for those ideas to work.

I propose that this is exactly what the Diagram is. Taravangian was only occupied with what he saw as the boon: being smart. So a Shard(in this case: Cultivation) pushed him in the right direction by having him write it down for future interpretation.

[red032]

On 18/05/2016 at 2:47 PM, CJ lidmk said:

What I find most interesting about the diagram is that his 'intellect' has a lot more information than can be known just from intuition. Intellect take data and posits hypotheses from that data. Mr T. Is getting new data as far as I can tell, he is being fed understanding from a more knowledgeable source (i.e. A Shard) I find it highly likely that he is being influenced by odium because his method of unification is something so Odium-esque (if you destroy all but one then the remaining are supremely unified).

Think about it:
Ruin was a good manipulator. He waltzed his way fooling almost all players on Scadrial. 
But I don´t see this deftness (or finesse) on Odium. hate does not wait, does not conspire. It attacks and goes for the throat (and, until now, is the only shard that can splinter others).
And the mechanic for the Nightwatch is well stablished -  a boon and a curse. You can save Roshar but you cannot see each step on the way. The boon is magical in nature, so he may have had a cognitive expansion on his perfect intellgence day that provided a full picture view (remember Kelsier when his mind expanded). And Nightwatch must follow many not yet revealed rules (like almost all things on Roshar have rules that are not yet apparent).

[Radiant_Jaeger]

On 4/30/2017 at 10:23 AM, The One Who Connects said:

I disagree. That bane would give the Boon meaning and prevent it from being an "instant-win button," as it were.

He comes up with a great many ideas during his "better" days, some of which are why he gets confined to his quarters. Were he a more compassionate person at the time, he would realize that telling the stupid to commit suicide is a bad idea.

It stands to reason that he also comes up with ideas on his "worse" days, many of which would be kind-hearted ideals, but not necessarily smart choices. Remember, he gets confined to quarters on his very compassionate days too. Had he written his ideas down so he could interpret them on a smarter day, he could realize the issues himself and gain new perspectives, maybe even figure out a way for those ideas to work.

I propose that this is exactly what the Diagram is. Taravangian was only occupied with what he saw as the boon: being smart. So a Shard(in this case: Cultivation) pushed him in the right direction by having him write it down for future interpretation.

So would this compassionate ideas be simple ethics by which the Diagramists should act? 

Do no harm. The ends do not justify the means etc.?

Also I think cultivation already put her chips on the knights Radiant side of things, what with Wyndle and Lift