Shardplate is Grown

[Jondesu]

I've been a proponent of the lesser spren forming Shardplate theory for a while, but one of the threads about that got me thinking about Shardplate from a different perspective.

A Spren is primarily a cognitive being, with some physical presence usually of course, but the Nahel bond allows Radiant spren to enter more fully into the Physical realm and interact with it in ways they couldn't before. This eventually leads to them being able to form into a Shardblade as we've seen with Syl and Pattern (and we assume Ivory as well).

Humans, on the other hand, are primarily Physical (in terms of how they interact with the world), so is it possible the Nahel bond allows them to gain more presence in the Cognitive realm, and then as a result of that, grow their own Shardplate, manifesting it like the spren manifest as Shardblades? In that case, it would stem from their Stormlight, but not need lesser spren nor any other source. When the Radiants broke their Nahel bonds in the Recreance, their presence in the Cognitive would have been severed and reverted to their previous state, so the Shardplate they were wearing at the time would have been severed from them as well, remaining permanently manifested but requiring Stormlight from gems to function and regrow, since it could no longer be replenished using the Knight's own Stormlight.

Thoughts?

Edited November 16, 2016 by Jondesu
Adjusted thread title

[Argent]

I like the parallel between the spren getting locked in Shardblade form and the Plate getting locked in a permanent form, all due to the Recreance. It has elegance. But I don't think it could work like that - spren get to turn into Blades because the Nahel bond gives them a stronger Physical aspect; what the Radiants get out of the deal is a stronger Cognitive aspect, manifested in the ability to manipulate some Surges, some Investiture, as those things are more mutable in Shadesmar, it being "closer" to the Spiritual Realm, the source of things like that.

 

I don't see why the Nahel bond would allow the Radiants to manifest things in the Physical Realm. Not unless those things originate in one of the others.

[Jondesu]

Yeah, that's the weakest point in this argument probably, Argent. That said, I pictured them being able to do it in much the same way that the Spren are able to do this. By being more in the Cognitive, their minds can conceive of something and bring it into being, manifesting then in the Physical. It would be in effect similar to Soulcasting, except strictly by turning Stormlight into Shardplate. It also helps explain the way the armor changes at will during Dalinar's flashbacks, and why every set looks different.

jW

[CaptainRyan]

Why would Radiants, with the ability to manifest shardplate in the physical realm, be limited to manifesting shardplate? If they can manifest plate then why not other things?

[BrightVoid]

And most radiants after manifesting something in the cognitive realm would be unable to bring it to the physical realm, with the exeption being Elsecallers and Lightweavers.

[Stormgate]

Remember, weapons besides Shardblades are possible (I cite the Shardspear, Shardaxe, etc that Kaladin wields in his fight with Szeth) but are not seen in post-Recreance Shardblades. Who knows what weird things Shardplate can do?

Shardchair, perhaps?

[CalaCrisp88]

Spren imitated Honorblades. That's why, when they were killed, they remained in Blade form. Syl, however, is still alive, so she can become other weapons.

[Jondesu]

Spren imitated Honorblades. That's why, when they were killed, they remained in Blade form. Syl, however, is still alive, so she can become other weapons.

Agreed. Living Shardplate, controlled by the Radiant's desires (whether it's lesser spren or a Cognitive creation), can also do things dead Shardplate cannot, like having the helm disappear and reappear at will as Dalinar witnessed. It's very likely it could change shape to meet the needs of a situation as well, although we haven't seen proof of that of course.

My main argument for this, I think, is the fact that they're all different, but I do admit the same is true of the Shardblades too, reflecting the individuality of the spren and knights. I don't see lesser spren having the same individuality, though: all windspren look alike, all rainspren, etc, varying only in size. The only exception I can think of is creationspren, but they're taking on the form of things around them, and they still all behave in the same way. Lesser spren don't seem to have distinctions that would lead to such different sets of plate.

jW

[11thorderknight]

I've been a proponent of the lesser spren forming Shardplate theory for a while, but one of the threads about that got me thinking about Shardplate from a different perspective.

A Spren is primarily a cognitive being, with some physical presence usually of course, but the Nahel bond allows Radiant spren to enter more fully into the Physical realm and interact with it in ways they couldn't before. This eventually leads to them being able to form into a Shardblade as we've seen with Syl and Pattern (and we assume Ivory as well).

Humans, on the other hand, are primarily Physical (in terms of how they interact with the world), so is it possible the Nahel bond allows them to gain more presence in the Cognitive realm, and then as a result of that, grow their own Shardplate, manifesting it like the spren manifest as Shardblades? In that case, it would stem from their Stormlight, but not need lesser spren nor any other source. When the Radiants broke their Nahel bonds in the Recreance, their presence in the Cognitive would have been severed and reverted to their previous state, so the Shardplate they were wearing at the time would have been severed from them as well, remaining permanently manifested but requiring Stormlight from gems to function and regrow, since it could no longer be replenished using the Knight's own Stormlight.

Thoughts?

jW

 

This is exactly my theory on Shardplate.

[11thorderknight]

And most radiants after manifesting something in the cognitive realm would be unable to bring it to the physical realm, with the exeption being Elsecallers and Lightweavers.

 

Here's the thing about Shardplate - it doesn't really do anything other than what the Radiant can already do by holding Stormlight. Think about it; a surgebinder gets increased strength, speed, toughness, and regrowth, which are all features of Shardplate. Not coincidentally, Sharplate requires Stormlight to function. So you could argue that physical Shardplate is simply a cognitive manifestation of a Radiant's ability to use Stormlight, perfected. 

[Master_Moridin]

Spren imitated Honorblades. That's why, when they were killed, they remained in Blade form. Syl, however, is still alive, so she can become other weapons.

 

This...isn't certain.  Brandon's actually RAFO'd a question about this just recently.

[C. James-Mayer]

This...isn't certain.  Brandon's actually RAFO'd a question about this just recently.

 

Yes, here's the quote:

 

Q: So, why is it that there are only dead swords?

A: That’s a good question that will be answered in the future.

[Argent]

This...isn't certain.  Brandon's actually RAFO'd a question about this just recently.

 

 

Yes, here's the quote:

 

Q: So, why is it that there are only dead swords?

A: That’s a good question that will be answered in the future.

 

I know with 100% certainty that we've had at least one WoB in the past (and I am pretty sure it's more than one) about how the spren wanted to imitate what the Honorblades did, which is why they default to the shape of a Blade when they "die." I don't have the time to find it, but I am absolutely certain. Which is why this recent WoB confuses me, it's not like Brandon has been coy with this information before...

Edited May 3, 2016 by Argent

[Jondesu]

I know with 100% certainty that we've had at least one WoB in the past (and I am pretty sure it's more than one) about how the spren wanted to imitate what the Honorblades did, which is why they default to the shape of a Blade when they "die." I don't have the time to find it, but I am absolutely certain. Which is why this recent WoB confuses me, it's not like Brandon has been coy with this information before...

I've seen the WoB I assume you're thinking of as well, and I remember thinking the same, that it was very clear about that. The only thing I can assume is that either the previous WoB wasn't as clear as we thought, or that Brandon misunderstood or has changed his mind.

jW

[Argel]

Q: So, why is it that there are only dead swords?

A: That’s a good question that will be answered in the future.

 

Maybe Brandon is addressing the "dead" part?

[Jondesu]

Maybe Brandon is addressing the "dead" part?

Hmm, interesting possibility. We think we know the reason (the Recreance), though we don't know the reason for that, but perhaps there's something else we haven't pieced together. I wonder if the Recreance wasn't voluntary (do we have confirmation either way), and if the Shards/Spren were dead or dying when they were dropped, instead of being killed at that time.

jW

[Master_Moridin]

Here's the other WoB
 

Question
Why were all the shardblades swords when they can take on any weapon form they want? Would they all revert to swords when they die?

Brandon Sanderson
When they die they'd revert to the basic form which was a sword since they were patterned after honorblades.
(source)

 

Beginning to feel like he just forgot he already gave an answer.  Or maybe there's more to it than we thought.

[The Invested Beard]

So here's an idea:

 

What if shardplate is the result of a two tier bond. Human bonds higher Spren to become Shardblade. Higher Spren then bonds lower spren to form a symbiotic relationship with the human as Shardplate. What if the Shardplate is actually bonded to the Shardblade/weapon spren?

[Jondesu]

So here's an idea:

What if shardplate is the result of a two tier bond. Human bonds higher Spren to become Shardblade. Higher Spren then bonds lower spren to form a symbiotic relationship with the human as Shardplate. What if the Shardplate is actually bonded to the Shardblade/weapon spren?

That goes back to the other theory in that case, which I still think is also a very strong possibility. I like the elegance, as Argent said, but I don't have a ton of evidence of course.

I will point to the oft-cited passage in favor of the lesser spren theory, though. Kaladin fighting in the storm, with the windspren swirling around him. While it could lend to that theory, the spren may be attracted to the Stormlight that is literally exploding out of him as he's holding onto and using all he can possibly handle. That "excess" Stormlight is what I picture...almost congealing, kinda like the Shardblades from mist, though likely with a little bit different mechanism. It's not accidental that Brandon didn't include Dalinar actually seeing the helm disappear in his vision, he wanted to keep that a secret and only drop us hints.

Totally on the fence here, but now there's more possibilities to discuss. :-)

jW

[CJ Feboris]

I am still a bit more in the sister-spren camp for Shareplate, but I really like this theory. I would explain why and how they can dismiss the plate so easily. I think there is some better storage of Stormlight in the later oaths as well. Stormlight seems to "work better some how" for Kaladin as he progresses, I think if they have to carry around tons of gemstones all the time, this might be cumbersome and dangerous in a fight, maybe the stormlight can be stored in the plate...

[Blightsong]

I've been a proponent of the lesser spren forming Shardplate theory for a while, but one of the threads about that got me thinking about Shardplate from a different perspective.

A Spren is primarily a cognitive being, with some physical presence usually of course, but the Nahel bond allows Radiant spren to enter more fully into the Physical realm and interact with it in ways they couldn't before. This eventually leads to them being able to form into a Shardblade as we've seen with Syl and Pattern (and we assume Ivory as well).

Humans, on the other hand, are primarily Physical (in terms of how they interact with the world), so is it possible the Nahel bond allows them to gain more presence in the Cognitive realm, and then as a result of that, grow their own Shardplate, manifesting it like the spren manifest as Shardblades? In that case, it would stem from their Stormlight, but not need lesser spren nor any other source. When the Radiants broke their Nahel bonds in the Recreance, their presence in the Cognitive would have been severed and reverted to their previous state, so the Shardplate they were wearing at the time would have been severed from them as well, remaining permanently manifested but requiring Stormlight from gems to function and regrow, since it could no longer be replenished using the Knight's own Stormlight.

Thoughts?

jW

I find this unlikely mainly due to the fact that the Plate is still around. If they are able to form their own plate then I would assume when the Knights abandoned their oaths that either they would have become the plate, which doesn't really make sense. It would also seem to need them to create a very invested object out of thin air, which violates conservation of Investiture.

I like the parallel between the spren getting locked in Shardblade form and the Plate getting locked in a permanent form, all due to the Recreance. It has elegance. But I don't think it could work like that - spren get to turn into Blades because the Nahel bond gives them a stronger Physical aspect; what the Radiants get out of the deal is a stronger Cognitive aspect, manifested in the ability to manipulate some Surges, some Investiture, as those things are more mutable in Shadesmar, it being "closer" to the Spiritual Realm, the source of things like that.

 

I don't see why the Nahel bond would allow the Radiants to manifest things in the Physical Realm. Not unless those things originate in one of the others.

I don't think their increased presence within the cognitive realm is what gives them the Surges. Brandon has confirmed that Radiants gain Connections within the spiritual realm that normal humans don't have, and they would seem to be made within the extra space in a spirit web that 'snapping' creates, which seems to suggest that this is how they get their magic, as being snapped is a prerequisite for a Nahel Bond. Some evidence for this is that Allomancers don seem to be any closer to the Cognitive realm, but are similarly invested and can also manipulate forces.

I think that a Radiant's increased existance in the Cognitive Realm will manifest itself in them being able to pull themselves into the cognitive realm at will. We have already seen example of a Nahel bond being able to pull beings through the different realms, the example being Shardblades, so I think it works in a similar fashion for the human counterpart. This is supported by when Kaladin seemingly glimpsed the Cognitive realm while flying throughout the chasms.