55 posts in this topic

Sorry, I was not meaning to be argumentative. I was just trying to cover other possibilities. In my read throughs of BoM is always found the suit color changing to be odd and I am, tentatively, a fan of the subtle Awakening concept. I am not, however, ruling out the possibility that Brandon is just screwing with us haha

 

No fear, and I didn't take it that way.  I just wasn't sure that I knew which side you were taking, and I did want to consider what, exactly, it would imply for VenDell to actually be changing suits.

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As far as I can tell you are in favor of the "subtle awakening" theory, so I don't think I'm really arguing against you.

I'd say that while it is absolutely possible that VenDell is changing suits twice (so you can't rule it out on for logistical reasons) that kind of misses the point.  Why would VenDell do this?  What possible point would there be to it?  Did he spill large amounts of ketchup on his suits off-screen and have to repeatedly change?  It certainly didn't help him achieve his goals.  I don't think "irritating Wayne" was that high of a priority.  It's a waste of time, regardless of how he would have done it.  It's quite pointless and doesn't fit his character in the slightest.

It seems, oddly enough, more likely that he is using a subtle form of awakening than that he changed suits for no good reason.  The first just requires that there be more to awakening than we have seen before (known to be true) and that VenDell could have accessed it (a bigger stretch, but we've seen plenty of Worldhoppers on Scadrial at this point; he could have just bought "awakening tech" from one of them, for instance.)  The second requires some very odd, out-of-character and completely pointless behavior.  It's strange that I weigh more strongly on the first one, than the second---but it's the kind of thing Brandon does.

It doesn't have to be tech, just a different technique or strange Command that we don't know of. We really don't get to see a ton of the more advanced stuff that presumably Vasher knows, like the Command that erases someone's memories, like what he did to the little girl he rescues in Warbreaker. This is completely off the wall, but I imagine that there could be a subtle Command for something similar to lightweaving that creates illusions using Breath and slowly drains the coat for fuel...as an illusion, I think, usually is a slow-drain kind of Investure and it'd be something that someone could probably do with Awakening if they just knew the right Command and had the imagination for it. This, however, is just an example, I don't think this is what VenDell is doing, but I will not say anything else on that particular line of thought...

 

 

We have seen Awakening do things very quickly and immediately change something from its original color to grey but it might be possible to have a slow-acting Awakening command that gradually drains the color of an object. I have no proof to offer for this concept. I also have no idea what sort of command VenDell could have used that would do this. So, basically, I am making all of this up on the off-chance that it is correct and I come out looking like some kind of Sanderson-genius.

 

*raises eyebrow* I will come off as a genius, you mean. Or a loon. A loon is much more likely! ;D

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*raises eyebrow* I will come off as a genius, you mean. Or a loon. A loon is much more likely! ;D

*chuckles nervously* Ahem. Of course. I meant to say you would come off as a genius. I would merely appear as someone with the good taste to support a genius when I recognize them!

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I am unsure, why did we throw away the "BioChromatic Aura change" for Coat's color?

 

It a more elegant solution than creating new rules to Awakening... When we wil find some contro to this solution, we may speculate otherwise.

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I am unsure, why did we throw away the "BioChromatic Aura change" for Coat's color?

It a more elegant solution than creating new rules to Awakening... When we wil find some contro to this solution, we may speculate otherwise.

The way the coat color change is described doesn't really match up with how BioChromatic auras change color.

BioChromatic auras make colors stronger somehow. Not darker, or brighter. Stronger.

Also, it would have affected everything around VenDell, including his face.

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The way the coat color change is described doesn't really match up with how BioChromatic auras change color.

BioChromatic auras make colors stronger somehow. Not darker, or brighter. Stronger.

Also, it would have affected everything around VenDell, including his face.

He is a Kandra, He may change his skin color to mimic the change... about the coat's color an untrained eye (someone who don't know of Breath and Biochromatic aura) may misread the "stronger" color for another color... Remember that on Nalthis everyone have a Breath, know things about that and their sense/color recognition are improved by the Breath.

 

On Scadrial the people are quite shortsighted if compared with Nalthis people.

SA Spoiler:

Vasher on Roshar has is own Biochromatic Aura and nobody notice something strange with him and the color around

Edited by Yata
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He is a Kandra, He may change his skin color to mimic the change... about the coat's color an untrained eye (someone who don't know of Breath and Biochromatic aura) may misread the "stronger" color for another color... Remember that on Nalthis everyone have a Breath, know things about that and their sense/color recognition are improved by the Breath.

On Scadrial the people are quite shortsighted if compared with Nalthis people.

SA Spoiler:

Vasher on Roshar has is own Biochromatic Aura and nobody notice something strange with him and the color around

I doubt having one Breath would make much of a difference in noticing colors (and neither Vivenna or Siri had any prior experience with auras before Warbreaker).

Vasher doesn't necessarily have an aura - he has suppressed his Divine Breath and could put away most of his stash somewhere else, if he has one.

Hoid would be a better example, since he actually mentions having perfect pitch, and Kaladin doesn't notice any color differences.

That's not really pointing towards VenDell having Breath though - if non-Nalthians don't notice auras, then why would they notice any change in VenDell?

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They may notice the "Color's change" but don't if the Biochroma don't change.

 

But you have right... we have no proofs about VenDell and his Breaths.... As far as we know, He may just be a really clean fanatic and change often his own clothes (or any other excuse).

 

But that Kandra has some "Magic oddies" on him and I find quite suspicious everything he does ;-)

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I think someone should ask Brandon if anyone on Roshar can see Wit or Zahel's BioChromatic aura. But, maybe that's not actually useful information on how Awakening works on other worlds.

 

My guess is that Wit has a way of hiding it, perhaps with his Yolish Lightweaving. He has a totally different appearance than his natural one, and he's an Investiture savant, so he probably knows how to hide external evidence of Investiture. Zahel though, well, he might know how to do that, and he might only have one Breath on him (he's sustaining himself with Stormlight, so why would he needs to carry Breaths on his rather than in something he's carrying?) causing him to not have an aura. When he hides his Divine Breath, he hides the aura it creates. Otherwise, he wouldn't be able to be a drab Returned like he is in Warbreaker from time to time.

 

But anyway, the upshot of what I'm saying is, I don't think using anything we've seen in the Stormlight Archive is helpful to our understanding of Awakening on other worlds. So, VenDell could be using Awakening somehow to alter the color of his coat, but, it would be in a way we've never seen before. I feel like a more sensible answer is that he's changing clothes. He does seem like the kind of person to do that. especially if he thinks the outfit had dirt on it. And he's also the kind of person who'd have a ton of coats, but all of them would be shades of brown.

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I feel like a more sensible answer is that he's changing clothes. He does seem like the kind of person to do that. especially if he thinks the outfit had dirt on it. And he's also the kind of person who'd have a ton of coats, but all of them would be shades of brown.

 

Three times in a few hours? Once, sure, twice - maybe, but thrice? I think that's as much of a clue as the gradually lightening color.

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Three times in a few hours? Once, sure, twice - maybe, but thrice? I think that's as much of a clue as the gradually lightening color.

Although a stretch, he is a collector of antiquities (various bones). Maybe he likes certain clothes to match with certain bones. "Well I am wearing the hand bones of Breeze, and he wouldn't be caught dead ;)  in anything other than this deep shade of brown.....But hmmm, now I am going to a less formal occasion and my bones may be damaged. Let me switch out to that street urchin from just after the Cacendre. That was a very excellent year, and he was rather durable. I think his hand and leg bones would be best. But this coat is far too good for such likes, so I shall go a lighter shade. Perhaps a tan." Again, total stretch, but would be pretty funny if that was the case  :)

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Three times in a few hours? Once, sure, twice - maybe, but thrice? I think that's as much of a clue as the gradually lightening color.

 

I'm not saying it's definitely the answer, but I'm trying to stab this with Occam's Razor. That he has magic from another world AND is using it in a way we've never seen just sounds like quite a stretch to me. Someone being so OCD that they have to change clothes three times in three hours or whatever, while not super plausible, does seem more plausible than that explanation to me.

 

Also, wasn't he in the church that flooded? Wouldn't that at least lead to one suit change? And some of those could be describing the same suit with different words - the first two definitely seem like they could be the same color suit. Then, the flooding happened, and the next time we see him, he has on a different color suit. The only one that seems odd to me is the next bit, where he has on a suit with a lighter shade of tan. There really wasn't any clear reason for him to change between those two scenes.

 

But, looking at the wording of that last line, it reads, "his suit now was an even lighter shade of tan." If it was the same exact suit or a suit changing colors, I'd expect that to read "his suit was now an even lighter shade of tan." The "suit now" to me means it's a different suit, this one of a lighter shade of tan. Like, I read the line as meaning "the suit he now wore was an even lighter shade of tan than the one he was wearing before."

 

I just think, even if the change seems a bit quirky, him changing clothes is just significantly more plausible than him not only using magic he shouldn't know about, but also using it in some extremely non-standard way that only has one small obvious effect (and Awakening magic is normally extremely obvious).

 

 

On top of all that, could a Kandra even use Awakening? Wouldn't they have to make things Kandra-shaped for the Command to take, which is kinda impossible since the Kandra have no shape?

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I think we just disagree - fundamentally - about what is more likely. And that's fine. 

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I think we just disagree - fundamentally - about what is more likely. And that's fine. 

 

Agreed. Err, disagreed. Uhh, how does this work again? <.<

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Oh, how fun! *rubs hands together*

 

 

Also, wasn't he in the church that flooded? Wouldn't that at least lead to one suit change? And some of those could be describing the same suit with different words - the first two definitely seem like they could be the same color suit. Then, the flooding happened, and the next time we see him, he has on a different color suit. The only one that seems odd to me is the next bit, where he has on a suit with a lighter shade of tan. There really wasn't any clear reason for him to change between those two scenes.

 

He was in the room before the antechamber of the church where Wax and Steris were before they entered the main dome room, that means, he didn't get wet (the water tower fell on the dome).

 

She [Marasi] came into the room and held the door open, revealing the same slender man in the brown suit and bow tie from before, standing with the ash girls in the antechamber that led to the doom proper.

 

“You,” Wax said. “How did you get here before Wayne?”
 
“I don’t believe your friend is coming,” the man said. He stepped in beside Marasi and nodded to her, then closed the doors, shutting out the ash girls.
 
(BoM, page 9)
 
It's likely that he left again (through the antechamber's doors) and was not there to 'get wet' when the tower fell on the dome. Either way, he wasn't in the part of the church that got flooded. :P
 

 

 

On top of all that, could a Kandra even use Awakening? Wouldn't they have to make things Kandra-shaped for the Command to take, which is kinda impossible since the Kandra have no shape?

 

 

Why would that effect Awakening? Vasher made a Lifeless squirrel, that does NOT have a human shape. Awakened things don't HAVE to have a human shape to Awaken, it's just easier because it's easier for humans to imagine them being Endowed with life and doing human-like things, but other things that can have life (Squirrel, dog, etc.) can also be Awakened, so...yeah. The limits of Awakening, to some extent, are limited by the Awakener's imagination. A kandra who obtained Breath would obtain Breath like a human, why would it be any different? Kandra can speak the Command, they also have Spirit Webs that Breath can attach or unattach to. There really is no problem here.

Also, kandra have cognitive awareness, and, while they have a kandra brain kandra prefer to use humanoid True Bodies for the most part (that is, other than TenSoon). I think a kandra could understand that, to use this bit of Investiture, they need to conceive of picture of that strawdude (like Vasher uses) acting a certain way. Why would they have any issue conceiving a Command like "pick up keys"? Kandra know that hands/fingers pick up keys, and could imagine a strawdude (or a cloak with tassels) doing so like a humanoid would. They would have no issues, yes,they are blobs, but they are shapeshifting blobs that are mostly in a HUMAN(OID) SHAPE and, for the most part, prefers that shape.

 

No, kandra should have no logical issues with Awakening, their nature might make it a little easier because I imagine they...have some interesting ideas of what body-parts can do (lips on hands!)... Maybe they can imagineer weird Commands because of their nature as shapeshifters, I can only really see that as actually advantageous in Awakening, flexible minds seem way more useful for that sort of thing.

 

 

I just think, even if the change seems a bit quirky, him changing clothes is just significantly more plausible than him not only using magic he shouldn't know about, but also using it in some extremely non-standard way that only has one small obvious effect (and Awakening magic is normally extremely obvious).

 

 

 
Well, he does seem to have a somewhat good grasp on Investiture and how things work, so, hijacking a system to do something cool for kicks seems plausible to me, especially because Sanderson said we are seeing people use Awakening in "interesting ways" (the WoB is on the first page in the intro to the topic).
 
All this is to say I agree with Argent, luckily, this is one of my more sane theories, too. ;)
Edited by Kandra-in-disguise
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Fine, fine, good points all around, you all win. I just had to try and check the plausibility of a more "mundane" answer before accepting magic color breath fashion statements :o

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On 5/1/2016 at 7:37 PM, Kandra-in-disguise said:

It begins, the newest, craziest topic of them all!

So, recently, I mentioned my rather strange discovery of VenDell's coat and its tendency to get lighter throughout the first few chapters, and I predicted he was an Awakener.
 
http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/53640-jordancon-this-year/page-5#entry436369
 

 

I predicted that VenDell had Breath and has used it for Awakening (or powering something via Breath). Since then, I have found more evidence to support this theory (yes, more...crazy as it is). I will be listing them in order, with the original quote I brought up in the JordanCon topic at the end. When VenDell first appears, his coat is described as "dark brown":
 
 

 

~The Bands of Mourning, 4, Kindle Edition~
 
Next, at the Survivorist Church it's described as just brown:
 

~BoM, 9
 
At Wax's manor the first time around it's lighter still:
 

~BoM, 24-25
 
And the last time we see VenDell at Wax's manor, when Wayne describes VD's suit as tan:
 

~BoM,42
 
In the course of only a few hours, VenDell's coat goes from a dark brown, to a light tan. This is obvious when put together like the above, I spotted the Wayne quote on my first reading and highlighted it (because I found it suspicious), but just recently was inspired to go back and look for more signs/clues though I was already pretty sure this was happening.
 
So, what I think is going on here, VenDell has acquired some Breath. Not only that, he understands how to use it and is using it to fuel something throughout the time we see him (and possibly on screen)More than likely, this means that VenDell has gone to Nalthis, or if he hasn't, he has become familiar with Nalthis Investiture. Due to his somewhat advanced understanding of what Investiture is and how it works, this does make some sense...however:

 

~BoM, 43-44
 
He doesn't "like" leaving. Or so he claims...(and yes, the fact that Wax, of all people, calls him a Metalborn is also...an interesting tidbit, but let's ignore that, Wax is just using slang for people who can do cool things like be practically indestructible).
 
In conclusion (TL;DR), I believe that VenDell has done three things. First, he has acquired Breath and is using it to fuel some kind of Awakening (I do not think it is traditional Awakening, though, I think he's doing something more interesting as the above WoB suggests, it says "And are making use of it in variety of ways." I believe VenDell fits into this catagory). Second, VenDell has been off-world, and has at least gone to Nalthis. This makes VenDell a world-hopping kandra. We also have a WoB about those (and it's stated in the plural). Finally, VenDell lied. He has a different reason he does not want to go with Wax and his crew, and he is probably much more interested in the Bands than he is letting on (because he's an innocent researcher!).
 
In the end, I propose that there is a lot more to VenDell than we've been led to believe. I don't believe he's a "bad" guy or working for Shard X, but VenDell knows Wax (or knows about him...) well enough to push all his buttons and make Wax do what he wants.

We need to get WoB on this, stat.

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This is currently one of the highest priority questions in my personal list of questions for Brandon.

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As an artist, here are some thoughts. You get brown and grey the same way when mixing pigments. (It has to with contrasting colors.) I've never actually understood why awakening turns objects grey, as grey is itself a color and should be usable for awakening. It makes more sense to turn things white... Which DOES happen when a person with sufficient power drains ALL color from an object. 

So where does that leave us? Simple. We are not actually seeing grey; we are perceiving grey! Look up pointilism. See the pictures? See the colors? Now look VERY closely. Tiny dots. Tiny tiny dots. The eye mixes those dots into pictures... AND colors.

basically, when you awaken something you don't suck all the color from an object; you suck MOST of the color from an object. On a microscopic level. The result is something our eyes perceive as grey (but isn't.) If you drain all the color you are left with white.

if someone was VERY good at awakening maybe they could pull all the color from small amounts of fabric? Individual threads perhaps? As they'd be pulling more color from a smaller area most of the color should be drained. Because our eyes read this as one color a piece of fabric would appear to get lighter. Say, dark brown to tan? In reality a coat might be threads of dark brown and pale grey, but it would LOOK like a tan.

and adding pale grey paint to a brown one is one way of getting tan...

if i'm right about the grey versus white then we don't need to invent new rules for awakening. We just use the ones we have and assume Ven Dell is very subtle. Which isn't much of a jump - he IS a Kandra. 

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On 8/30/2016 at 1:15 AM, Kingsdaughter613 said:

As an artist, here are some thoughts. You get brown and grey the same way when mixing pigments. (It has to with contrasting colors.) I've never actually understood why awakening turns objects grey, as grey is itself a color and should be usable for awakening. It makes more sense to turn things white... Which DOES happen when a person with sufficient power drains ALL color from an object. 

So where does that leave us? Simple. We are not actually seeing grey; we are perceiving grey! Look up pointilism. See the pictures? See the colors? Now look VERY closely. Tiny dots. Tiny tiny dots. The eye mixes those dots into pictures... AND colors.

basically, when you awaken something you don't suck all the color from an object; you suck MOST of the color from an object. On a microscopic level. The result is something our eyes perceive as grey (but isn't.) If you drain all the color you are left with white.

if someone was VERY good at awakening maybe they could pull all the color from small amounts of fabric? Individual threads perhaps? As they'd be pulling more color from a smaller area most of the color should be drained. Because our eyes read this as one color a piece of fabric would appear to get lighter. Say, dark brown to tan? In reality a coat might be threads of dark brown and pale grey, but it would LOOK like a tan.

and adding pale grey paint to a brown one is one way of getting tan...

if i'm right about the grey versus white then we don't need to invent new rules for awakening. We just use the ones we have and assume Ven Dell is very subtle. Which isn't much of a jump - he IS a Kandra. 

Or he has a good (enough) understanding of Investiture from studying it to use it in a more subtle way (we could even argue that this is always how it works, but let's not go into that here). Given that he studies Investiture as a scientist (and even other-worldly forms would probably interest him), it seems logical that he could figure out how to use color more subtly, probably...

The only thing left to do, I guess, is to figure out what the hell he was Awakening... xD

(Also, it's been years since I've seen the word 'pointilism', dear Harmony).

Edited by Kandra-in-disguise
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In the annotations for the Warbreaker chapter14, Brandon says "[Returned] tend to wear black, since it’s the most powerful color for draining to Awaken things."  To me, it seems that VenDell is Awakening things using breaths and powering the Awakenings with the color of his suit, since it is progressively getting lighter for the duration.  I like Kingsdaughter613's point about pointillism. 

Though I don't think that VenDell's Awakening abilities prove that he has been to Nalthis.  Someone from Nalthis could have given him breaths to use.

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Actually a Kandra can't usually perfome Awakening. You have to be Nalthian to have the right sDNA to Awaken...Of course with the right knowledge He may Spike out this ability from every Nalthian, or use an Hack to allow himself to have Awakening.

2 hours ago, Ianricks58 said:

In the annotations for the Warbreaker chapter14, Brandon says "[Returned] tend to wear black, since it’s the most powerful color for draining to Awaken things."  To me, it seems that VenDell is Awakening things using breaths and powering the Awakenings with the color of his suit, since it is progressively getting lighter for the duration.  I like Kingsdaughter613's point about pointillism. 

This is actually the whole meaning of a couple of pages of posts....In the Awakening, when the color are drained from an object, the object turn gray (or white with the Perfect Awakening) in an area directly correlate to the color need (more color needed and larger drained area)....Not the whole object became slighty lighter.

It's the reason people like me thinked that we saw only the effect of his changing Biochroma from a point of view of someone without any formal knowledge of the Biochroma. Of course this may be wrong, but instead we have to reconsiderate how the Awekening works and set new rules (It's the last thing I want to do)

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7 hours ago, Yata said:

Actually a Kandra can't usually perfome Awakening. You have to be Nalthian to have the right sDNA to Awaken...Of course with the right knowledge He may Spike out this ability from every Nalthian, or use an Hack to allow himself to have Awakening.

This is March of 14 and it doesn't specifically ask, but Brandon somewhat implies that the ability to awaken doesn't depend on sDNA.

Quote

Brandon Sanderson

Well then you would have Surgebinding, and the Old Magic, those are two at least, and there are things that are not explained in those at all, and how do you count creating fabrials? Is that a science and not a magic? Is that its own magic system?

Rhandric

It's a science, because anyone can do it.

Brandon Sanderson

So Awakening is not a magic, then? Awakening's a science? Because anyone can Awaken if they get the breath.

Rhandric

That's something that stood out to me, because in all your other magic systems that we've seen so far there has to be some sort of snapping to occur, and that's unique, because- [...]

Source   As stated above, it doesn't specifically ask about what you mention. I do agree that being born with breath does require Nalthian sDNA.

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2 minutes ago, The One Who Connects said:

This is March of 14 and it doesn't specifically ask, but Brandon somewhat implies that the ability to awaken doesn't depend on sDNA.

Source   As stated above, it doesn't specifically ask about what you mention. I do agree that being born with breath does require Nalthian sDNA.

No I meant the actually ability to Awakening. Everyone may gain Breath (if someone give to them or uses some other tricks) and you may give to someone else...But you can't actual use it to performe Awakening if you are not Nalthisian. You may "just" gain the passive benefit of Breath. I may swear we have a WoB about...as soon I find it. I will post it here

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14 hours ago, Yata said:

No I meant the actually ability to Awakening. Everyone may gain Breath (if someone give to them or uses some other tricks) and you may give to someone else...But you can't actual use it to performe Awakening if you are not Nalthisian. You may "just" gain the passive benefit of Breath. I may swear we have a WoB about...as soon I find it. I will post it here

Kandra-in-disguise quoted WoB that said:

Q: Someone who has Breath Investiture, can they give the Breath to someone who doesn’t, so
like somebody from Scadrial, or…
A: Yes.
Q: Would the Scadrian be able to use it.
A: Yes. You have seen people from off-planet who have Breath before.
Moderator: Or… perfect pitch?
A: Yes. [laughter] And are making use of it in variety of ways.

From this quote and the quote from The One Who Connects If someone was given a breath, they would be able to use it.

I also agree with The One Who Connects that only Nalthians are born with breaths.

ZAS

After several more signings, I asked my other question. "Do people in the Comsere, besides Nalthis, have Breaths?"

BRANDON SANDERSON

"No." He then signed a person's books, then said "To elaborate a little more, that's not to say they don't have a life force, because they do. But if someone not from Nalthis were to suddenly gain the ability to become an Awakener, they could not use what they have to Awaken something. That's not to say that they can't receive breaths though." 
 
Edited by Ianricks58
Duplicate quote and adding a quote
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