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That's incredibly well spotted! I agree, it doesn't look like standard awakening, as that tends to turn objects grey.

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That's incredibly well spotted! I agree, it doesn't look like standard awakening, as that tends to turn objects grey.

 

Indeed, especially since normally Awakening does so immediately, as opposed to VenDell's coat which slowly fades from dark brown to tan over the course of several hours.  I wonder what Command he was using, and why.  

Edited by Landis963
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Maybe VenDell has managed to figure out a complicated process to allow him to turn breath into another form of innate investiture, and is using that.

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That's incredibly well spotted! I agree, it doesn't look like standard awakening, as that tends to turn objects grey.

 

Could be a greyish, tan. Who knows, I mean, tan has a variety of different shades and it's not something that these characters would think to note.

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Could be a greyish, tan. Who knows, I mean, tan has a variety of different shades and it's not something that these characters would think to note.

 

I meant more that tan doesn't come on a normal dark brown -> grey spectrum.

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Indeed, especially since normally Awakening does so immediately, as opposed to VenDell's coat which slowly fades from dark brown to tan over the course of several hours.  I wonder what Command he was using, and why.  

But in the end it's possible that the coat didn't become lighter from "Awakening Color Drain" but just because VenDell recovered more and more Breath from everywhere he stores/uses it, and the characters saw just the effect of VenDell's Biocromatic Aura  on VenDell himself

 

PS: I forgot it, but I really like this Theory

Edited by Yata
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I wouldn't have put much stock in this theory without Wayne's comment there at the end. The fact that a character not only notices the change in color, but also makes the reader aware of this change is good evidence. It could be a red - brown? - herring, but considering that most of us wouldn't have noticed the change without Wayne, a herring is probably unnecessary. 

 

But while I like the theory, I do have to wonder if Awakening / Breath storage is what is going on here. When Awakeners fuel their magic, they drain color fully - down to grey; they don't lighten the color as much as they take it away. Moreover, when an Awakener stores their Breath in an object, the object's color becomes more vibrant, it doesn't actually change. And a change from dark brown to tan is quite a significant change. 

 

All this being said, there is a factor I could maybe accept as evidence for Awakening - perception. Nalthians, or at least people who have lived in T'Telir, must be very used to the ways colors change when there is an Awakener nearby, or one has stored their Breath in an object. So from their perspective, they would be able to tell instantly whether VenDell's coat changes colors because of that. But people on Scadrial are not familiar with this kind of change at all, so what might look like a change in hue to a Nalthian, could be perceived as changed in color to Scadrian. I still think this is unlikely, but it's something I could accept.

 

Still, I like the theory a lot. Unless someone beats me to it, I will ask Brandon about it next time I see him.

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I wouldn't have put much stock in this theory without Wayne's comment there at the end. The fact that a character not only notices the change in color, but also makes the reader aware of this change is good evidence. It could be a red - brown? - herring, but considering that most of us wouldn't have noticed the change without Wayne, a herring is probably unnecessary. 

 

But while I like the theory, I do have to wonder if Awakening / Breath storage is what is going on here. When Awakeners fuel their magic, they drain color fully - down to grey; they don't lighten the color as much as they take it away. Moreover, when an Awakener stores their Breath in an object, the object's color becomes more vibrant, it doesn't actually change. And a change from dark brown to tan is quite a significant change. 

Could it be possible that being a kandra is letting VenDell do some sort of very efficient Awakening, sort of like how the Tenth Heightening causes you to drain something to white?

 

Would be interesting, if VenDell had some sort of efficient Awakening that didn't really reach Tenth Heightening levels, but left drained colors lighter.

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Sure, but I can't imagine why. Nothing suggests that kandra have any kind of enhanced control over Awakening, and even if they did nothing suggests that partial color drain is even possible. Nothing I can think of contradicts it outright, but it's kind of a Russel's teapot type of scenario.

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Sure, but I can't imagine why. Nothing suggests that kandra have any kind of enhanced control over Awakening, and even if they did nothing suggests that partial color drain is even possible. Nothing I can think of contradicts it outright, but it's kind of a 

 

Was primarily just trying to find something we currently know of in Awakening to explain it without assuming miss-perception of the narrator.  Don't really feel strongly about it.

Edited by Master_Moridin
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Sure, but I can't imagine why. Nothing suggests that kandra have any kind of enhanced control over Awakening, and even if they did nothing suggests that partial color drain is even possible. Nothing I can think of contradicts it outright, but it's kind of a <a data-ipb="nomediaparse" data-cke-saved-href="https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Russell"href="https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Russell" s_teapot"="">Russel's teapot type of scenario.

 

The difference between this and Russel's teapot is that something is changing the color of Ven-Dell's suit.  There aren't any known "real-world" ways to do that the way it is described, and Awakening is the magic system that best matches.  It's not a terribly good match, as of right now, but it is the best match.

 

Russel's teapot only applies when there is absolutely nothing that needs explaining, but people come up with an unfalsifiable explanation anyway.

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That's why I thought it had to be something weird, because Awakening drains pigment, turning things grey. It also has to be different because it's a slow change over time (over the course of a few hours), but noticeable enough that change did occur... So, whatever VenDell is doing is happening slowly and slowly using fuel (the color in his suit) to power something.

 

Also, as characters see color differently (because people do) I'm going to vouch for the perception explanation. We also don't know what 'type' of brown or 'tan' it is (considering that brown and tan have different hues themselves) and what we think of tan =/ what Wayne things of tan...

 

 

I wouldn't have put much stock in this theory without Wayne's comment there at the end. The fact that a character not only notices the change in color, but also makes the reader aware of this change is good evidence. It could be a red - brown? - herring, but considering that most of us wouldn't have noticed the change without Wayne, a herring is probably unnecessary. 

 

But while I like the theory, I do have to wonder if Awakening / Breath storage is what is going on here. When Awakeners fuel their magic, they drain color fully - down to grey; they don't lighten the color as much as they take it away. Moreover, when an Awakener stores their Breath in an object, the object's color becomes more vibrant, it doesn't actually change. And a change from dark brown to tan is quite a significant change. 

 

All this being said, there is a factor I could maybe accept as evidence for Awakening - perception. Nalthians, or at least people who have lived in T'Telir, must be very used to the ways colors change when there is an Awakener nearby, or one has stored their Breath in an object. So from their perspective, they would be able to tell instantly whether VenDell's coat changes colors because of that. But people on Scadrial are not familiar with this kind of change at all, so what might look like a change in hue to a Nalthian, could be perceived as changed in color to Scadrian. I still think this is unlikely, but it's something I could accept.

 

Still, I like the theory a lot. Unless someone beats me to it, I will ask Brandon about it next time I see him.

 

Thank you! :) (As the last time he was in my state, I was in Ohio, it was pretty sad... Even if he goes back to Michigan next year, I'll probably be in Ohio...)

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There is yet another possibility that may not have been considered yet...  He may just be changing suits.

 

This would not nearly be as interesting, however, we have to maintain it as a possibility.

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There is yet another possibility that may not have been considered yet...  He may just be changing suits.

 

This would not nearly be as interesting, however, we have to maintain it as a possibility.

 

It just seems very unlikely, though. Not to dismiss this, but he would've had to run home (the Homeland?) and change his suit and then return all within two hours. And do it more than once. That just seems a little too unrealistic, to me. Is it possible? Yeah, sure, but it doesn't seem as likely.

 

And from the way Wayne reacts, it seems like the same suit. :P

Edited by Kandra-in-disguise
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But it's possible explain the "color change"  with the Standard Awakening alone.

 

Or did I miss something ?

Edited by Yata
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How would Awakening change the color of a coat? Or, rather, how would it change it from dark brown to light brown?

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How would Awakening change the color of a coat? Or, rather, how would it change it from dark brown to light brown?

I like the aura/perception explanation for that. I.E. he didn't actually use the color from the coat for awakening, but the resulting lack of heightening cause the coat to look less colorful to others around him.

jW

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The problem with the storing Breaths idea is that if the Breaths are in the coat then the coat is vibrant, and if the Breaths are in the kandra then the entire outfit is vibrant. There's no opportunity for things to grow dim.

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The problem with the storing Breaths idea is that if the Breaths are in the coat then the coat is vibrant, and if the Breaths are in the kandra then the entire outfit is vibrant. There's no opportunity for things to grow dim.

The Breath may be in another object and the difference between the outfit's color is just the more or less power of VenDell Biochromatic Aura while he has more or less Breath stored away

Edited by Yata
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The problem with the storing Breaths idea is that if the Breaths are in the coat then the coat is vibrant, and if the Breaths are in the kandra then the entire outfit is vibrant. There's no opportunity for things to grow dim.

I didn't think that storing breaths in an object made that object more colorful. Regardless, Yata is correct that I'm thinking it's not that the breaths are stored there, but that they were used or stored somewhere else, and therefore his Biochromatic Aura is diminished (making colors around him no longer seem more vibrant, like they do around those who hold significant numbers of breaths).

jW

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It begins, the newest, craziest topic of them all!

So, recently, I mentioned my rather strange discovery of VenDell's coat and its tendency to get lighter throughout the first few chapters, and I predicted he was an Awakener.

 

http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/53640-jordancon-this-year/page-5#entry436369

 

I predicted that VenDell had Breath and has used it for Awakening (or powering something via Breath). Since then, I have found more evidence to support this theory (yes, more...crazy as it is). I will be listing them in order, with the original quote I brought up in the JordanCon topic at the end. When VenDell first appears, his coat is described as "dark brown":

 

 

~The Bands of Mourning, 4, Kindle Edition~

 

Next, at the Survivorist Church it's described as just brown:

 

~BoM, 9

 

At Wax's manor the first time around it's lighter still:

 

~BoM, 24-25

 

And the last time we see VenDell at Wax's manor, when Wayne describes VD's suit as tan:

 

~BoM,42

 

In the course of only a few hours, VenDell's coat goes from a dark brown, to a light tan. This is obvious when put together like the above, I spotted the Wayne quote on my first reading and highlighted it (because I found it suspicious), but just recently was inspired to go back and look for more signs/clues though I was already pretty sure this was happening.

 

So, what I think is going on here, VenDell has acquired some Breath. Not only that, he understands how to use it and is using it to fuel something throughout the time we see him (and possibly on screen)More than likely, this means that VenDell has gone to Nalthis, or if he hasn't, he has become familiar with Nalthis Investiture. Due to his somewhat advanced understanding of what Investiture is and how it works, this does make some sense...however:

 

~BoM, 43-44

 

He doesn't "like" leaving. Or so he claims...(and yes, the fact that Wax, of all people, calls him a Metalborn is also...an interesting tidbit, but let's ignore that, Wax is just using slang for people who can do cool things like be practically indestructible).

 

In conclusion (TL;DR), I believe that VenDell has done three things. First, he has acquired Breath and is using it to fuel some kind of Awakening (I do not think it is traditional Awakening, though, I think he's doing something more interesting as the above WoB suggests, it says "And are making use of it in variety of ways." I believe VenDell fits into this catagory). Second, VenDell has been off-world, and has at least gone to Nalthis. This makes VenDell a world-hopping kandra. We also have a WoB about those (and it's stated in the plural). Finally, VenDell lied. He has a different reason he does not want to go with Wax and his crew, and he is probably much more interested in the Bands than he is letting on (because he's an innocent researcher!).

 

In the end, I propose that there is a lot more to VenDell than we've been led to believe. I don't believe he's a "bad" guy or working for Shard X, but VenDell knows Wax (or knows about him...) well enough to push all his buttons and make Wax do what he wants.

It's absolutely incredible that you were able to catch this. Man, I wish I had your perceptive abilities. Someone get me a metal spike, a bean bag chair, and an Anatomy book. 

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It just seems very unlikely, though. Not to dismiss this, but he would've had to run home (the Homeland?) and change his suit and then return all within two hours. And do it more than once. That just seems a little too unrealistic, to me. Is it possible? Yeah, sure, but it doesn't seem as likely.

 

And from the way Wayne reacts, it seems like the same suit. :P

 

I believe it is mentioned in Shadows of Self that there are Kandra living normally among the population and own homes, businesses etc. I could be misremembering what was said and drawing far too unfounded conclusion from it but VenDell, or another Kandra, could have a home in the city stocked with things Kandra need.

 

How would Awakening change the color of a coat? Or, rather, how would it change it from dark brown to light brown?

 

We have seen Awakening do things very quickly and immediately change something from its original color to grey but it might be possible to have a slow-acting Awakening command that gradually drains the color of an object. I have no proof to offer for this concept. I also have no idea what sort of command VenDell could have used that would do this. So, basically, I am making all of this up on the off-chance that it is correct and I come out looking like some kind of Sanderson-genius.

Edited by CaptainRyan
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I believe it is mentioned in Shadows of Self that there are Kandra living normally among the population and own homes, businesses etc. I could be misremembering what was said and drawing far too unfounded conclusion from it but VenDell, or another Kandra, could have a home in the city stocked with things Kandra need.

 

As far as I can tell you are in favor of the "subtle awakening" theory, so I don't think I'm really arguing against you.

I'd say that while it is absolutely possible that VenDell is changing suits twice (so you can't rule it out on for logistical reasons) that kind of misses the point.  Why would VenDell do this?  What possible point would there be to it?  Did he spill large amounts of ketchup on his suits off-screen and have to repeatedly change?  It certainly didn't help him achieve his goals.  I don't think "irritating Wayne" was that high of a priority.  It's a waste of time, regardless of how he would have done it.  It's quite pointless and doesn't fit his character in the slightest.

It seems, oddly enough, more likely that he is using a subtle form of awakening than that he changed suits for no good reason.  The first just requires that there be more to awakening than we have seen before (known to be true) and that VenDell could have accessed it (a bigger stretch, but we've seen plenty of Worldhoppers on Scadrial at this point; he could have just bought "awakening tech" from one of them, for instance.)  The second requires some very odd, out-of-character and completely pointless behavior.  It's strange that I weigh more strongly on the first one, than the second---but it's the kind of thing Brandon does.

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As far as I can tell you are in favor of the "subtle awakening" theory, so I don't think I'm really arguing against you.

Sorry, I was not meaning to be argumentative. I was just trying to cover other possibilities. In my read throughs of BoM is always found the suit color changing to be odd and I am, tentatively, a fan of the subtle Awakening concept. I am not, however, ruling out the possibility that Brandon is just screwing with us haha

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