Where's the perpendicularity?

[PallonianFire]

I know all we've gotten is a RAFO on whether or not Autonomy is/isn't based on the sun, but my assumption is definitely that he's directly powering sand mastery. That said, would it make any sense for his shardpool to be on Dayside? Having a standing body of liquid that had no apparent source would be a bit obvious out there, IMO.

[QuantumSpren]

Somewhere in the Deepsand possibly, maybe even under the deepsand where Kenton fought the terken sandling. It seems like a sacred place.

[PallonianFire]

I'm starting to toy with the idea that it's not a shardpool, but something more like the Pits of Hathsin. It would make more sense, I think.

[Blightsong]

I'm starting to toy with the idea that it's not a shardpool, but something more like the Pits of Hathsin. It would make more sense, I think.

Im not possitive, but I've always had the impression that there is a shardpool in the pits

[Yata]

Im not possitive, but I've always had the impression that there is a shardpool in the pits

Yeah there is a shardpool in the pit... If I remember right Alendi wrote it on is Journal...

Mistborn spoiler (from the final empire)

The Mist Spirit murdered one of his companion where they went too close to a "black lake"

Edited April 28, 2016 by Yata

[PallonianFire]

Huh, I don't remember that at all. But that was pre-Ascension, if it was Alendi, so it would have been pre-Pits. I was under the impression that the liquid that would have gone into a shardpool was condensing and turning into atium.

[Yata]

Of course it has not the name of Pit of Hatsin yet, but also after Rashek his function didn't change... Also during Alendi's time the Pits produced Atium (well it were probably sature of Atium pre-Ascension without nobody that mined it)

[PallonianFire]

The whole world changed during the Ascension. The Pits were created then, IMO, and the function of Ruin's perpendicularity changed to condense the liquid and produce atium, instead of just staying as a shardpool.

[Blightsong]

The whole world changed during the Ascension. The Pits were created then, IMO, and the function of Ruin's perpendicularity changed to condense the liquid and produce atium, instead of just staying as a shardpool.

The 'whole' world did not change. In fact the only other analogue we have on that planet for Ruin's Shardpool is Preservation's and we know both that that Shardpool wasn't changed, and that it didn't produce Lerasium. Brandon has stated that the Lord Ruler had to go and find the Lerasium, meaning that it wasn't at the well before or after he ascended, which indicated that Perpendicularities are not involved in the production of God metals. It also doesn't really make sense that a Perpendicularity would produce God metals, they are just a collection of that shards investiture. If you had a huge superconducting ring storing energy it wouldn't randomly spit out batteries.

[PallonianFire]

 

 

Perpendicularities are not involved in the production of God metals

 

Except we know that the Pits were a perpendicularity, and we know that that's where atium was produced. The fact that Kelsier actually destroyed the perpendicularity is a big point of evidence that there wasn't a shardpool hidden at the bottom. He just used a big push of allomancy to destroy the geodes, and it wiped out the perpendicularity.

[Blightsong]

Except we know that the Pits were a perpendicularity, and we know that that's where atium was produced. The fact that Kelsier actually destroyed the perpendicularity is a big point of evidence that there wasn't a shardpool hidden at the bottom. He just used a big push of allomancy to destroy the geodes, and it wiped out the perpendicularity.

There was definitly a Shardpool at the bottom. Secret History spoilers below.

Both Hoid and Khriss spoke about how Kelsier destroying made it hard to travel to Scadrial. Hoid even goes so far as to say that all traffic to Scadrial had stopped because of him. The only way we know for sure to worldhop is to use a Shardpool to transition to the Cognitive realm. This means that Kelsier's actions at the Pits must have destroyed a Shardpool. I also want to point out that every time we have seen Hoid world hopping, which is thrice, he was using a Shardpool

Edited April 29, 2016 by Blightsong

[PallonianFire]

That doesn't absolutely mean there was a shardpool. It means the Pits were a perpendicularity, and Kelsier destroyed them. We see Kelsier destroy the Pits, and he's targeting atium geodes, not some hidden pool at the bottom. 

[Blightsong]

That doesn't absolutely mean there was a shardpool. It means the Pits were a perpendicularity, and Kelsier destroyed them. We see Kelsier destroy the Pits, and he's targeting atium geodes, not some hidden pool at the bottom.

A Perpendiculary is a large gathering of a shards investiture in the physical realm. The ONLY form we have seen this in is a Shardpool. Brandon has onky ever referenced Perpendicularies as shardpools. In fact, Shardpool is a fan made term. He has only ever called them Perpendicularies. When asked about the pool in Elantris he calls it a Perpendiculary. Where did you get the idea that a Perpendiculary was anything other than a Shardpool?

Also, you don't have to push on something directly to destroy it. The investiture was still probably there, even, but it's hard to travel through something when thousands of tons, if not millions, of rock are on top of it.

[PallonianFire]

 

 

The ONLY form we have seen this in is a Shardpool.

 

This is manifestly untrue. We've seen the Pits, where Ruin's body gathers as atium. This is my point. The assumption that all perpendicularities are in the form of pools is off-base.

[Blightsong]

This is manifestly untrue. We've seen the Pits, where Ruin's body gathers as atium. This is my point. The assumption that all perpendicularities are in the form of pools is off-base.

Wait, are you trying to say that all investiture in the physical realm is a Perpendicularity? If that is the case then Stormlight is a Perpendicularity, Shardblades are a Perpendicularity, and Lerasium is a Perpendicularity.

If you are saying the location itself is the Perpendicularity, then unless the entirety of the Pits are made completely out of concentrated investiture, you are mistaken.

If you are saying that where ever Lerasium is produced, which is by the Well of Ascension, Brandon has confirmed that TLR had to go and collect it after Asending, then you are again mistaken. Based on how Brandon has refered to Perpendicularities, there is only one for each Shard. He, or any character, has Never said "X-Shards Perpendicularities" or "one of X-Shards Perpendicularities". It has always been singular.

There is no 100% proof that what you are saying is wrong, but it is almost definitly wrong based on what we have seen. I would be more ok if you thought of this as some kind of crackpot theory, or strange head cannon, but you are bringing it up as if it is fact, which it is far from.

[PallonianFire]

 

 

Wait, are you trying to say that all investiture in the physical realm is a Perpendicularity? If that is the case then Stormlight is a Perpendicularity, Shardblades are a Perpendicularity, and Lerasium is a Perpendicularity.

 

No, I'm saying that the Pits are the perpendicularity. That, based on the evidence we see in Mistborn, the liquid that would have formed a shardpool like the Well of Ascension is instead condensing into atium geodes.

 

I am well aware that there is only one per Shard, and I am of the opinion that it does not necessarily have to be in the form of a pool. It's wherever that Investiture gets concentrated—which, in the case of Ruin, is the Pits, in the atium.

 

I tried looking for some WoBs, just to see if he's ever said anything about Ruin having a pool, but I can't find anything on that. Until we get that WoB, this is my theory.

[Blightsong]

No, I'm saying that the Pits are the perpendicularity. That, based on the evidence we see in Mistborn, the liquid that would have formed a shardpool like the Well of Ascension is instead condensing into atium geodes.

 

I am well aware that there is only one per Shard, and I am of the opinion that it does not necessarily have to be in the form of a pool. It's wherever that Investiture gets concentrated—which, in the case of Ruin, is the Pits, in the atium.

 

I tried looking for some WoBs, just to see if he's ever said anything about Ruin having a pool, but I can't find anything on that. Until we get that WoB, this is my theory.

Then how do you suppose that Lerasium formed naturally on Scadrial. I'll post the quote below, it's from JordanCon:

"Q: Did the Lord Ruler crate the Lerasium he gave to [...]?

A: Oh, good question, no one has asked that before, I think. Yea, no, he found the Lerasium.

Q: Was it placed there intentionally or did it justold sort of grow [...]?

A: The Lord Ruler...it was not placed for him, he had to...get it."

This makes it seem as if it grows naturally, just like Atium.

[PallonianFire]

I was there when that question was asked. That's not pertinent to this. Besides, Brandon saying he "had to get it" makes it sound like Rashek had to act to get the beads, not just find them. If they grew naturally, there would have been more than just the few that we saw.

 

Another point of evidence in favor of the Pits being the perpendicularity is that they regenerate, the same as the Well, over time after being used.

 

I would contend that the Well is the "natural growth" you refer to re: the Pits.

[Blightsong]

I was there when that question was asked. That's not pertinent to this. Besides, Brandon saying he "had to get it" makes it sound like Rashek had to act to get the beads, not just find them. If they grew naturally, there would have been more than just the few that we saw.

 

Another point of evidence in favor of the Pits being the perpendicularity is that they regenerate, the same as the Well, over time after being used.

 

I would contend that the Well is the "natural growth" you refer to re: the Pits.

Ok I found a relevant quote. Remember, this quote is Verbatim, so these are his exact words.

INTERVIEW: Oct, 2008

Hero of Ages Q&A - TWG (Verbatim)

DALENTHAS (15 OCTOBER 2008)

Does the Well of Ascension still exist in the new world? Or is it no longer necessary? I assumed that Preservation collected there like Ruin collects in the Pits of Hathsin, so if Atium keeps forming then the well should keep filling...

BRANDON SANDERSON (16 OCTOBER 2008)

The Well (and the small wells in the Pits) is no more. For now at least.

TAGS

mistborn, well of ascension, hero of ages, ruin, preservation, atium, pools, future books,

[PallonianFire]

Okay, so there's a WoB on this. Cool. I'll let this lie for now, but next chance I get I'm gonna ask if the wells in the Pits were evaporating/condensing into atium.

[Yata]

As far as we know after sometime the Well and the Pits "spawned" (without a better term) on Scadrial (quite near if I don't remember wrong).

 

Then after some time, Preservation betrayed Ruin, stealing some amount of his power and locked it in the Well.

 

The amount of Ruin's stolen power was putted in the cycle of Atium's generation and this happened near of the Ruin's Perpendicularity (maybe because it was the easier place where the Ruin's investiture may be converted in to physical metal)

 

But in the end, the pits contained both the perpendicularity and the "Atium-generator".

[Blightsong]

As far as we know after sometime the Well and the Pits "spawned" (without a better term) on Scadrial (quite near if I don't remember wrong).

 

Then after some time, Preservation betrayed Ruin, stealing some amount of his power and locked it in the Well.

 

The amount of Ruin's stolen power was putted in the cycle of Atium's generation and this happened near of the Ruin's Perpendicularity (maybe because it was the easier place where the Ruin's investiture may be converted in to physical metal)

 

But in the end, the pits contained both the perpendicularity and the "Atium-generator".

Yes on the very last part, but I recently remember reading a WoB that stated Ruin wasn't so much locked away, as Preservation set up a system that would negate nearly everything ruin tried to do. This worked because preservation set nearly all of the power to exactly oppose what ruin was doing. Because they were such opposites, it would render whatever Ruin tried to do mute. He was wasn't so much locked up as gentled.

[Stormgate]

Back on track...

There is one river on Dayside. Perhaps this is the Shardpool?

[Pathfinder]

I am re-reading White Sand, and as I do I am leaning towards the sun. Daysider's instinctively know when it "feels" like in the right place in the sky, to know east from west and not get lost. They all also feel a "spiritual" connection to it and always "feel" its presence. Even Khriss when she first experiences it, feels a sense of presence to it. 

[Blightsong]

I am re-reading White Sand, and as I do I am leaning towards the sun. Daysider's instinctively know when it "feels" like in the right place in the sky, to know east from west and not get lost. They all also feel a "spiritual" connection to it and always "feel" its presence. Even Khriss when she first experiences it, feels a sense of presence to it.

I think that is something other than a Perpendicularity. They don't really have any of the characteristics that you mentioned. There is probably something magical happening with that sun, but I don't think this is it.