Compounding inconsistency

[Oversleep]

It recently struck me:

The power you get (let's leave the whole Allomantic Strength problem alone) from burning a metal depends only on the amount of the metal.

But the power you get from burning a metalmind depends on the Feruchemical charge of the metalmind. That's where the inconsistency is.

More detailed analysis:

See, in Allomancy the amount of power you get from metal is proportional to the mass of the metal. So two grams will burn twice the time one gram burns (or equally long if you flare two grams to the twice the rate of one gram).
It's all about mass and the rate of burning (mass/time).

Let's say that there is a fixed amount of power you get from burning one gram: PPG (Power Per Gram).

 

Now we're introducing Feruchemy in the equation. Feruchemy stores power in metal and that power is spread evenly throughout the metalmind. There is a upper limit to what you can store in a given amount of the metal but we very rarely see a metalmind so full it's impossible to store in.

Now, let's say you swallow a full metalmind and burn it. What happens? Allomantic power flows in (the amount of the Investiture flowing in is constant) and because metal's charge/Identity/some-term-I-don't-feel-like-inventing was overwritten by Feruchemical charge, the Investiture from Allomancy is filtered through it and becomes Feruchemical charge.

 

How much power will you get? PPG * mass of the metal * Feruchemical maximal power density of that metal

 

OK, now swallow half empty metalmind. Logically reasoning, only half of the PPG should turn into Feruchemical charge, because metal is only overwritten partially and the other half of the PPG should produce Allomantic effect.

Is there any WoB on such things? What are your thoughts?

Edited April 27, 2016 by Oversleep

[Blightsong]

I thought about this and this is what I've got,

Investiture expended = Investiture density of the metal mind * (Units of time spent burning * Mass of metal burned)

The only variable that would be unaccounted for is Investiture efficiency, I doubt that would be 100%, and I'm pretty sure savantism would increase that.

Thoughts?

[Gagylpus]

My headcanon about this is that a partially-full metalmind, consumed by an allomancer, would actually appear as two allomantic reserves: the feruchemical compounding one, and the regular allomantic one. The allomancer could choose which one to burn.

[Oversleep]

I know how to phrase it better:

 

The amount of Investiture you gain by burning metal is always the same (for each unit of mass). Let's say you have amount of metal worth 10 Units of Investiture.

 

If the feruchemical charge gets multiplied by 10. You store 1 Feruchemical Charge, burn it, get 10 FC.

 

But since Investiture cannot be created or destroyed, you can't get more than 10 Investiture Units. Let's assume that 10FC =1 IU. So the maximum you can get by burning metal worth 10 UI is 100 FC. Let's assume that this requires a full metalmind.

So metal worth 10 UI has maximum Feruchemical capacity of 10 FC. You burn metalmind charged with 10 FC; 10 UI flows through it and every 1 UI becomes 10 FC. This results in obtaining 100 FC.

So far it's canon - you get ten times more of what you stored.

But what if you burn a metalmind charged with only 5 FC? Only 5 UI would become Feruchemical charge - burning such metalmind results in 50 FC and 5 UI.
So double effect - you get ten times the stored charge, but at the same time Allomantic effect has to take place (since not-changed Investiture cannot just disappear).

 

On another note, this suggest that Allomantical power unit is ten times greater than Feruchemical one. I don't know what to make of that.

[Blightsong]

I know how to phrase it better:

 

The amount of Investiture you gain by burning metal is always the same (for each unit of mass). Let's say you have amount of metal worth 10 Units of Investiture.

 

If the feruchemical charge gets multiplied by 10. You store 1 Feruchemical Charge, burn it, get 10 FC.

 

But since Investiture cannot be created or destroyed, you can't get more than 10 Investiture Units. Let's assume that 10FC =1 IU. So the maximum you can get by burning metal worth 10 UI is 100 FC. Let's assume that this requires a full metalmind.

So metal worth 10 UI has maximum Feruchemical capacity of 10 FC. You burn metalmind charged with 10 FC; 10 UI flows through it and every 1 UI becomes 10 FC. This results in obtaining 100 FC.

So far it's canon - you get ten times more of what you stored.

But what if you burn a metalmind charged with only 5 FC? Only 5 UI would become Feruchemical charge - burning such metalmind results in 50 FC and 5 UI.

So double effect - you get ten times the stored charge, but at the same time Allomantic effect has to take place (since not-changed Investiture cannot just disappear).

 

On another note, this suggest that Allomantical power unit is ten times greater than Feruchemical one. I don't know what to make of that.

I don't think it is the power unit that is greater, but the investiture efficiency. I think that compounding makes the use of investiture more efficient, and thus it gives you a larger effect.

[king of nowhere]

as far as i know, even a partially filled metalmind would only return the full feruchemical effect, because being invested as metalmind changes the identity of the metal. but it makes sense that you can get more power if it is invested more heavily.

it is fully possible that your basic assumptiion, i.e. that you gain equal amounts of investiture by burning equal masses of metal, is wrong when applied to burning metalminds.

also, burning metals does not create investiture, nor is the investiture contained in the metal; instead, the metal is a key to access the investiture, so no principle is violated if there are ways to squeeze more investiture from the same metal. That investiture always comes from the shard, not the metal itself.

all things considered, i see no inconsistency.

[Three1415]

it is fully possible that your basic assumptiion, i.e. that you gain equal amounts of investiture by burning equal masses of metal, is wrong when applied to burning metalminds.

 

I believe this is the key, and that OP may be overthinking somewhat; we should, in my opinion, take Brandon at face value and assume that compounding does in fact return 10x the base Feruchemical Investiture contained in the metalmind, regardless of the metalmind's size (e.g., a more "charged" metalmind is equivalent to a much larger amount of "Feruchemical metal," and that the Feruchemical Investiture itself is what is being burned rather than the physical material of the metalmind). 

[hoidhunter]

I see where OVERSLEEP is coming from...but...I also have to agree with King of Nowhere.

 

The metal itself does not contain the investiture, rather, it is simply a filter that tells the investiture what to do.  We see evidence of this in that some allomancers are more powerful than others, and can gain the use of more investiture from burning the same amount of metal vs a "weaker" allomancer.  

 

So, when a feruchemist creates a metalmind, they are really changing the code that tells the investiture what to do when burned.  A piece of steel's coding  changes from, "push on metal", to "make lots of speed."

 

The confusing part (as oversleep points out) is that, the amout of feruchimal charge that you get from burning a metal mind, seems to have less to do with how much metal is being burned, and more to do with how much feruchimal charge it already has.  

 

So let's try thinking of it this way, as you put more of a feruchimal charge into a piece of metal, the code continues to change.  With 1 FU in a piece of steel, it is coded to generate 10FU when burned...but with 2 FU, it's coded to generate 20 FU, 3FU = 30FU, and so on.  

 

The amout of feruchimal charge that a metal mind has before being burned is not actually being multiplied by burning, it's simply coding the piece of metal to turn more investiture into the same type of feruchimal charge.  This feruchimal charge is immediatley available to the compounder for use, unless they can redirect it into another metalmind.

 

I don't ever recall reading anything in regards to how fast a metalmind burns during compounding.  It may actually be more efficient to compound metalminds that are small pieces of metal full to the brim with a certain quality, vs a large piece of metal with a relatively small amount of feruchimal charge.

 

I may be wrong about this...but it seems to make sense to me.  Thoughts? (BTW, upvote oversleep for adressing this.)

Edited April 27, 2016 by hoidhunter

[Yata]

The metal itself does not contain the investiture, rather, it is simply a filter that tells the investiture what to do.  We see evidence of this in that some allomancers are more powerful than others, and can gain the use of more investiture from burning the same amount of metal vs a "weaker" allomancer.  

Sorry Hoidhunter, but we know (via WoB) that the power from a piece of metal is constanct(the Allomantic Strenght is about "how high your burning rate is" or if you prefer about "how much of Preservation power you may drawn, and the metal will be consumed proportionately")... In the end, Allomancer like Elend was so strong because they may burn metal twice faster than an average Mistborn. The power for bead is constant but He used it in compressed time.

 

EDIT: I forgot to actual reply to the topic.

I think HoidHunter actually hits the right answer about Compounding.

A Metalmind is a metal object with his whole structure actually merged with coded Investiture. It has not "part with charge" and part "without charge".. It's evenly spread.

 

A metalmind with a FC density of 1 will be different in its structure from a Metalmind with FC density of 3 or 5. In the end the Allomancy will try to give a x10 of FC while someone burns a specific Metalmind.

 

I wrote "try to give" because we know there is a upper limit to the Preservation's power that an allomancer may drawn in a specific time.

For example: Rashek may compound Health faster than Miles, because when both of them reaches high amount of attribute, while Miles begin to be limitated by his own amount of power obtainable from Preservation, Rashek will continue to burn faster for a while before to be limitated (his immortality trick indeed will stop to work one day also with infinite Atium).

Edited April 27, 2016 by Yata

[king of nowhere]

Sorry Hoidhunter, but we know (via WoB) that the power from a piece of metal is constanct(the Allomantic Strenght is about "how high your burning rate is" or if you prefer about "how much of Preservation power you may drawn, and the metal will be consumed proportionately")... In the end, Allomancer like Elend was so strong because they may burn metal twice faster than an average Mistborn. The power for bead is constant but He used it in compressed time.

 

but that nly applies to normal allomantic metals, not to metalminds. or, rather, the allomantic power of a burned metalmind is not dependant on the size of the metal but on how much investiture was in the metalmind.

 

and brandon confirmed that it was possible to live for centuries with a small bead of atium, because of multiple compounding; basically, you use your own compounding on investiture to become a more powerful feruchemist, so that you are capable oof storing more charge into a smaller piece of metal, so that you need less metal. that should prove that the size of the metalmind is mostly irrelevant when burning it.

[Yata]

but that nly applies to normal allomantic metals, not to metalminds. or, rather, the allomantic power of a burned metalmind is not dependant on the size of the metal but on how much investiture was in the metalmind.

 

and brandon confirmed that it was possible to live for centuries with a small bead of atium, because of multiple compounding; basically, you use your own compounding on investiture to become a more powerful feruchemist, so that you are capable oof storing more charge into a smaller piece of metal, so that you need less metal. that should prove that the size of the metalmind is mostly irrelevant when burning it.

Yeah but what I want to say was:

if you as allomancer may drawn X amount of Investiture (AI) per second from Preservation and try to burn a Metalmind with 10*X AI you must burn for 100 seconds to obtain your 100X from compounding. Another Allomancer, for example Elend (yeah I know he can't compound..i's just for the exampe) may drawn 2X AI per second from Preservation and to burn the same Metalmind have to burn only for 50X seconds.

 

In the end when an Allomancer burns something (Metal or Metalmind). He simply opens himself to a flow of Preservation's power using a selected gateway (Metal or Metalmind) inside of himself.

The untyped Investiture through the gateway became something else (a Pushing force, a improvement of the body, or an attribute). But He still uses the same pipe to Preservation.. He can't obtain more than usual through that.

[Oversleep]

The power you get (let's leave the whole Allomantic Strength problem alone) from burning a metal depends only on the amount of the metal.

But the power you get from burning a metalmind depends on the Feruchemical charge of the metalmind. That's where the inconsistency is.

[Jondesu]

Yeah but what I want to say was:

if you as allomancer may drawn X amount of Investiture (AI) per second from Preservation and try to burn a Metalmind with 10*X AI you must burn for 100 seconds to obtain your 100X from compounding. Another Allomancer, for example Elend (yeah I know he can't compound..i's just for the exampe) may drawn 2X AI per second from Preservation and to burn the same Metalmind have to burn only for 50X seconds.

 

In the end when an Allomancer burns something (Metal or Metalmind). He simply opens himself to a flow of Preservation's power using a selected gateway (Metal or Metalmind) inside of himself.

The untyped Investiture through the gateway became something else (a Pushing force, a improvement of the body, or an attribute). But He still uses the same pipe to Preservation.. He can't obtain more than usual through that.

Do we have confirmation of this idea?  My concept of the relative strength of Allomancers wasn't that stronger ones burned their metals faster, but rather like they had a wider nozzle: more Investiture could flow through with the same amount of metal.  That means they would burn their metals at the same rate, but get more power than another Allomancer would.

 

jW

[Oversleep]

I updated main post with clearer explanation.

Do we have confirmation of this idea?  My concept of the relative strength of Allomancers wasn't that stronger ones burned their metals faster, but rather like they had a wider nozzle: more Investiture could flow through with the same amount of metal.  That means they would burn their metals at the same rate, but get more power than another Allomancer would.

 

jW

We do not have confirmation. Some Sharders believe that stronger Allomancer has increased burning rate, some believe that stronger Allomancer get more power from given amount of metal than weaker Allomancers (so they have increased Investiture Output of metal).

I understand arguments of both sides, but I personally agree with Increased Output camp.

Anyway, it's not important in this topic.

[18th Shard]

Ok. May I suggest the following: Say Miles stores one unit of investiture (1 UI) as Feruchemical gold in a metalmind. Let us also say that this metalmind has a size that, when burned, normally releases 5 UI in the form of Allomantic gold. Suppose he then burns this metalmind. I propose he would gain the original 1 UI in the form of Feruchemical gold; however, he also changes the format of the released 5 UI into Feruchemical gold. Therefore he has a total of 6 UI of Feruchemical gold.

 

In other words, Feruchemical power from compounding (p_fc) = p_fo (original feruchemical power) + p_ao (power originally allomantically derived from the metal). This power from allomancy would be dependant on mass (m) of the metal so, p_ao(m) in function notation.

 

So, p_fc = p_fo + p_ao(m).

[Oversleep]

Ok. May I suggest the following: Say Miles stores one unit of investiture (1 UI) as Feruchemical gold in a metalmind. Let us also say that this metalmind has a size that, when burned, normally releases 5 UI in the form of Allomantic gold. Suppose he then burns this metalmind. I propose he would gain the original 1 UI in the form of Feruchemical gold; however, he also changes the format of the released 5 UI into Feruchemical gold. Therefore he has a total of 6 UI of Feruchemical gold.

 

In other words, Feruchemical power from compounding (p_fc) = p_fo (original feruchemical power) + p_ao (power originally allomantically derived from the metal). This power from allomancy would be dependant on mass (m) of the metal so, p_ao(m) in function notation.

 

So, p_fc = p_fo + p_ao(m).

In your scenario Compounding is independent of original Feruchemical storage - you could get stomach full of metal, store one second worth of attribute, then still get a rust-ton of Feruchemical charge.

Burning a more full metalmind would give exactly zero benefit.

I don't think it works like that.

[Yata]

Ok Guys, it take me more time than I though but this is the WoB I talked about (source):

Q: Does a more powerful Mistborn burn their metals more quickly, or do they use what they get more efficiently?

A: Metal burning speed is proportional to power withdrawn.

Edited April 27, 2016 by Yata

[Three1415]

Ok Guys, it take me more time than I though but this is the WoB I talked about (source):

 

Hmm...Not what I was expecting, but I suppose it makes sense. 

 

@Oversleep: I see your point, but as I see it there are only two possible, and largely unsatisfactory, answers: "The inconsistency with burning the Feruchemical charge instead of the metal" one, or the "half-full metalmind gives the same amount of power" one.

 

Notably these two are not actually substantively different, as even in the first method, one could swallow an empty metalmind, store even the smallest bit of an attribute, then burn it and re-store the increased power in that metalmind again, repeating until it was full anyway--as a result, it is impossible to discern any difference in the first place.

 

Regardless, as with so much regarding Compounding, inconsistencies and illogic regarding use of the power appear to be entirely unavoidable--yet another to add to the growing pile of many, many reasons why Brandon should never have introduced Compounding at all...

Edited April 27, 2016 by Three1415

[BrightVoid]

Remember, this is magic, and even though Brandon's magic systems make sense there are limits.

[Oversleep]

Regardless, as with so much regarding Compounding, inconsistencies and illogic regarding use of the power appear to be entirely unavoidable--yet another to add to the growing pile of many, many reasons why Brandon should never have introduced Compounding at all...

What are the other problems with Compounding? I never heard about them until I made this topic.

I'll try to run the original problem through Brandon, either by posting it in Ultimate List and hoping somebody asks this very complicated question (unlikely) or wait until Brandon visits Poland and I ask him myself (who knows, maybe in 2017 he will come to Poland?).

Remember, this is magic, and even though Brandon's magic systems make sense there are limits.

Yeah, so we all should just stop discussing over Investiture and stuff, say "it's magic" and probably close the forum. Totally.

Edited April 27, 2016 by Oversleep

[hoidhunter]

 

Yeah, so we all should just stop discussing over Investiture and stuff, say "it's magic" and probably close the forum. Totally.

Agreed..."Let's shut it down people! No more theories! Only direct quotes from Brandon and my little ponies discussion!" 

[Yata]

I am unsure, because I can't see the problem yet.

 

If we know that in Allomancy (and also in the others Metallic Arts) the Metal's Structure is important and we may think (maybe there are also a Wob, I don't know) that Storing Attributes in a Metal change its structure (at least from a Realmatic point of view).

 

It's indeed possible or better have to be, that two Metalminds with different charge, have different Structure and of course they didn't work in the same way when burned (it's like to have different metals... or better some variations of the same metal).

 

After all, also with the mundane metals we see how the same mass of metal may be burned for different time. Some bead may burn for hours while other just minutes before run out.

 

But if you want a possible realmatic reason to the proportional output of Compounding, we may also try to explain it through the "more Charge has a Metalmind, more it resist through Preservation Power before be Burned away", we know that the Metal in allomancy is a gateway-limitator to Preservation's power and if the gateway last longer.. you may drawn more Preservation.

Edited April 28, 2016 by Yata

[Shadeshadow227]

It recently struck me:

More detailed analysis:

See, in Allomancy the amount of power you get from metal is proportional to the mass of the metal. So two grams will burn twice the time one gram burns (or equally long if you flare two grams to the twice the rate of one gram).

It's all about mass and the rate of burning (mass/time).

Let's say that there is a fixed amount of power you get from burning one gram: PPG (Power Per Gram).

 

Now we're introducing Feruchemy in the equation. Feruchemy stores power in metal and that power is spread evenly throughout the metalmind. There is a upper limit to what you can store in a given amount of the metal but we very rarely see a metalmind so full it's impossible to store in.

Now, let's say you swallow a full metalmind and burn it. What happens? Allomantic power flows in (the amount of the Investiture flowing in is constant) and because metal's charge/Identity/some-term-I-don't-feel-like-inventing was overwritten by Feruchemical charge, the Investiture from Allomancy is filtered through it and becomes Feruchemical charge.

 

How much power will you get? PPG * mass of the metal * Feruchemical maximal power density of that metal

 

OK, now swallow half empty metalmind. Logically reasoning, only half of the PPG should turn into Feruchemical charge, because metal is only overwritten partially and the other half of the PPG should produce Allomantic effect.

Is there any WoB on such things? What are your thoughts?

 

It is stated, the feruchemical charge creates a kind of filter for Investiture. Thus, Preservation's power, when using Allomancy, notices the charge, like: "hey, health? I can do that!", and the Investiture fully changes to grant a burst of the Feruchemical attribute. It doesn't matter how much you store up, as long as you store up even a second of...let's say...health, you will be able to have a healing ability as good as Miles Hundredlives. Same goes for the other attributes. All that math you did? the end result was wrong. Sorry to burst your bubble.

[11thorderknight]

My understanding is that the amount of Feruchemical charge in a metalmind is completely irrelevant when using it for Compounding. The Feruchemical charge, no matter how small or large, changes the Identity of the metal being burned so that it's Allomantic burn now creates a different effect from what it otherwise would have been. So, the amount of "energy" derived from Compounding is governed by Allomantic principles, not Feruchemical ones. Meaning, the Allomantic strength of the Compounder and the amount of the metal (but NOT the metal's charge) determine how much power is released. Typically, the amount of power is so great that it is not useable all at once, and most Compounders immediately store it in other metalminds for later use.

[Oversleep]

It is stated, the feruchemical charge creates a kind of filter for Investiture. Thus, Preservation's power, when using Allomancy, notices the charge, like: "hey, health? I can do that!", and the Investiture fully changes to grant a burst of the Feruchemical attribute. It doesn't matter how much you store up, as long as you store up even a second of...let's say...health, you will be able to have a healing ability as good as Miles Hundredlives. Same goes for the other attributes. All that math you did? the end result was wrong. Sorry to burst your bubble.

You repeated basic explanation of Compounding which, as you know, I must have known to come up with this analysis (it's even written in the very post you quoted). So stop with condescending tone.

And claiming the result is wrong is not the same as proving it's wrong. If you noticed any mistakes I did, point them out. But since you didn't do that, I somehow feel you didn't spot any mistakes...

Next time don't post if you have nothing to add to discussion.

 

My understanding is that the amount of Feruchemical charge in a metalmind is completely irrelevant when using it for Compounding. The Feruchemical charge, no matter how small or large, changes the Identity of the metal being burned so that it's Allomantic burn now creates a different effect from what it otherwise would have been. So, the amount of "energy" derived from Compounding is governed by Allomantic principles, not Feruchemical ones. Meaning, the Allomantic strength of the Compounder and the amount of the metal (but NOT the metal's charge) determine how much power is released. Typically, the amount of power is so great that it is not useable all at once, and most Compounders immediately store it in other metalminds for later use.

But then it means that there is no difference between burning metalmind Invested to the hilt and one that was briefly charged for a fraction of second. I find it hard to believe.

If the only factor of the Feruchemical output of Compounding is amount of metal, it basically destroys the exponential power output we believe Compounders are capable of. We could really use a WoB on this topic...

Edited May 3, 2016 by Oversleep