How are all these Worldhoppers Getting Around?

[Voidus]

I know this is the cosmere spoiler board but if an OP hasn't read SH please mind the spoilers guys.

[Stormgate]

I'm pretty sure that you can't just put a lot of Investiture in one place and make it a Shardpool. I don't know all the specifics, but I think a semipermanent physical location is necessary. By semipermanent, I mean unable to be moved unless you are a Shard or a being of comparable power.

[asterion137]

Not sure "shardpools" means exactly the same thing as "perpendicularities" cause the pits of hathsin were a perpendicularity.I was thinking of perpendicularities as something like "physical representations of a shard's power" or something

[Magestar]

On Roshar, you can enter Shadesmar(or the Cognitive Realm) with just some Stormlight. So are we saying that, 1) With storm light, you can enter the cognitive realm on any planet. 2) It is a particular quirk of magic/shard power on Roshar. 3) We are saying that Stormlight is as powerful as a Shardpool.

  If 1 is true, that explains how Hoid gets around, he does not need a shardpool, he has just been to Roshar and Collected some stormlight.

  If 2 is true, then all is as it is now. 

  If 3 is true, than we have problems.

 

Edit:  Just read Asterions post.  If that is true, and Stormlight is a representation of one of Roshars Shards powers, this all makes sense again.  It also means that Stormlight may be proximity dependent on Roshar's Shards.

Edited April 20, 2016 by Magestar

[Eki]

Not sure "shardpools" means exactly the same thing as "perpendicularities" cause the pits of hathsin were a perpendicularity.I was thinking of perpendicularities as something like "physical representations of a shard's power" or something

The pits actually were Ruin's shardpool. I think it's unclear if the pool was the actual pits, or if there was a real pool somewhere below the mines.

That said, in WoR Jasnah exits the Cognitive Realm somewhere that probably isn't a shardpool. Of course, she's special since she can Elsecall, but if you read that extra scene with her that's posted somewhere (from Oathbringer, or just a scene on its own? Not sure), it seems like you can't just exit from anywhere. That implies there are other, perhaps 'lesser', perpendicularities.

Also, doesn't Hoid use worldhopping to travel faster on a planet too? We used to think Hoid used worldhopping to get to the WoA before Vin, but that's not the case (anymore)... If he does, then yeah, shardpools can't be the only naturally occurring perpendicularities.

[Magestar]

That said, in WoR Jasnah exits the Cognitive Realm somewhere that probably isn't a shardpool. Of course, she's special since she can Elsecall, but if you read that extra scene with her that's posted somewhere (from Oathbringer, or just a scene on its own? Not sure), it seems like you can't just exit from anywhere. That implies there are other, perhaps 'lesser', perpendicularities.

If I recall correctly, doesn't her Spren call her into Shadesmar on its own?  Spren are slivers, however, so they do theoretically have the power to do things shards can do, on a smaller scale.  This also means that Perpendicularities are neither the only way of traveling to the cognitive realm, nor are they permanent.

[Vissy]

That could explain why Elantrians have such a natural advantage in Cosmere awareness. They could enter the Cognitive Realm via their Seons.

[Shardbearer]

I don't think just anyone on Roshar with some stormlight could enter Shadesmar. You have to have the right surges. It's not a matter of stormlight being stronger than breaths. Each power works differently. Some powers let you push on metals. Some powers let you make illusions. Some powers let you enter the Cognitive Realm without a perpendicularity.

[Khyrindor]

 

 

 

Does that mean that it is also equally hard to Worldhop to there?  We have seen Hoid there, I believe.  Also, does this mean that other forms of magic would not work well there? 

 

 

 

This would still likely only work on planets with shards, as they (typically) power magic/investiture?  There are also supposedly more natural ways to power investiture, but I have not been able to find any definitive explanations on how.

 

Well, Nazh is from Threnody, which is a minor shardworld, so I imagine that there are Perpendicularities there. Anything in the Cosmere is Investiture in one way or another, as Adonalsium created everything the Shards didn't. 

[Khyrindor]

If it's just a lot of Investiture, then why can't you just worldhop out of Nightblood?

 

It's not his Intent.

 

Edit: Oops, sorry for the doublepost

Edited April 20, 2016 by Khyrindor

[Vissy]

Do we know what Nightblood's Intent is? I assume it's somehow tied to Endowment's Intent.

Edited April 20, 2016 by Varangian

[happyman]

Do we know what Nightblood's Intent is? I assume it's somehow tied to Endowment's Intent.

 

I've always assumed that Nightblood's mandate (Intent) was to destroy evil.  That it isn't related to Endowment's mandate is an interesting source of conflict.

[Voidus]

Do we know what Nightblood's Intent is? I assume it's somehow tied to Endowment's Intent.

'Destroy Evil' A particularly troubling intent for  a sword since it has no conception of what 'evil' is.

[Khyrindor]

If you enter a Perpendicularity with the Intent to enter the Cognitive Realm, then you will. Vin entered with the Intent to pick up Preservation's power, but if she'd know how and wanted to, she could have done some very different things. Nightblood is the most heavily Invested object in the cosmere, but since his Intent is to destroy evil, and that is what he was created to do, you can't do much else with him. When Jasnah holds enough Stormlight, she can enter Shadesmar, because it has to do with her powerset. Other Radiant orders might get little glimpses, but only with relativity to their order's Intent. Truthwatchers likely see more of the Spiritual Realm, for example. 

[Voidus]

If you enter a Perpendicularity with the Intent to enter the Cognitive Realm, then you will. Vin entered with the Intent to pick up Preservation's power, but if she'd know how and wanted to, she could have done some very different things. Nightblood is the most heavily Invested object in the cosmere, but since his Intent is to destroy evil, and that is what he was created to do, you can't do much else with him. When Jasnah holds enough Stormlight, she can enter Shadesmar, because it has to do with her powerset. Other Radiant orders might get little glimpses, but only with relativity to their order's Intent. Truthwatchers likely see more of the Spiritual Realm, for example. 

Side note: Nightblood is not necessarily the most heavily Invested, especially not if we count people, also we have WoB that he could do some interesting things so there may be more to him than we have seen.

[Khyrindor]

Side note: Nightblood is not necessarily the most heavily Invested, especially not if we count people, also we have WoB that he could do some interesting things so there may be more to him than we have seen.

 

Not counting people or Shards and that naturally, but I thought I'd seen a WoB that said he was the most heavily Invested object

[asterion137]

The pits actually were Ruin's shardpool. I think it's unclear if the pool was the actual pits, or if there was a real pool somewhere below the mines.

That said, in WoR Jasnah exits the Cognitive Realm somewhere that probably isn't a shardpool. Of course, she's special since she can Elsecall, but if you read that extra scene with her that's posted somewhere (from Oathbringer, or just a scene on its own? Not sure), it seems like you can't just exit from anywhere. That implies there are other, perhaps 'lesser', perpendicularities.

Also, doesn't Hoid use worldhopping to travel faster on a planet too? We used to think Hoid used worldhopping to get to the WoA before Vin, but that's not the case (anymore)... If he does, then yeah, shardpools can't be the only naturally occurring perpendicularities.

well Kelsier only broke the crystals, not the shardpool, and Hoid said Kelsier broke "the only perpendicularity with any ease of access"

[Knight Oblivion]

On Roshar, you can enter Shadesmar(or the Cognitive Realm) with just some Stormlight. So are we saying that, 1) With storm light, you can enter the cognitive realm on any planet. 2) It is a particular quirk of magic/shard power on Roshar. 3) We are saying that Stormlight is as powerful as a Shardpool.

  If 1 is true, that explains how Hoid gets around, he does not need a shardpool, he has just been to Roshar and Collected some stormlight.

  If 2 is true, then all is as it is now. 

  If 3 is true, than we have problems.

 

Edit:  Just read Asterions post.  If that is true, and Stormlight is a representation of one of Roshars Shards powers, this all makes sense again.  It also means that Stormlight may be proximity dependent on Roshar's Shards.

 

So, with number one, we have only seen those with access to the Surge of Transformation actually being able to actually go partially or fully into the Cognitive Realm using Stormlight. In the rough draft scene that shows what happened to Jasnah Kholin after her apparent death in Words of Radiance, it apparently requires help from her spren. It's not 100% set but it can give us some framework to deal with. Number three is also problematic because it assumes that holding/using Stormlight in and of itself allows for access into the Cognitive Realm, which we have no evidence for. From what's been written, it's number two through the Surge of Transformation at least. We don't really know how the Surge of Transportation works.

 

The pits actually were Ruin's shardpool. I think it's unclear if the pool was the actual pits, or if there was a real pool somewhere below the mines.

That said, in WoR Jasnah exits the Cognitive Realm somewhere that probably isn't a shardpool. Of course, she's special since she can Elsecall, but if you read that extra scene with her that's posted somewhere (from Oathbringer, or just a scene on its own? Not sure), it seems like you can't just exit from anywhere. That implies there are other, perhaps 'lesser', perpendicularities.

Also, doesn't Hoid use worldhopping to travel faster on a planet too? We used to think Hoid used worldhopping to get to the WoA before Vin, but that's not the case (anymore)... If he does, then yeah, shardpools can't be the only naturally occurring perpendicularities.

 

Here's the link to that rough draft story. http://www.tor.com/2014/08/06/stormlight-archive-scene-after-words-of-radiance/

 

Anyways, Ruins shardpool was underneath the Pits of Hathsin.¹ Apparently destroying the Atium geodes interfered with the stability of the perpendicularity so that it wasn't a stable junction into or out of the Cognitive Realm. The term "junction" comes from that short story I linked above. It apparently refers to points that one can travel to and from the Cognitive Realm. Judging from that story, partially entering Shadesmar allows Surgebinders with the Surge of Transformation to return to the location in the Physical Realm where they left the rest of their presence. However, entering completely removes the junction created which then requires another stable one to reenter the Physical Realm.

 

The concept of a "stable" junction is actually interesting. It would imply that there are unstable junctions that were unsafe or incapable of allowing transport between the Cognitive and Physical Realms. It would also help explain why destroying the atium geodes caused the Pits of Hathsin to be an unsuitable entry point into Scadrial despite Ruin's shardpool not necessarily being untouched. The destruction probably caused the junction due to the perpendicularity to become unstable. Also interesting is how Ivory doesn't first mention that one requires a perpendicularity but a stable junction then listing Honor's perpendicularity as the most likely candidate. This implies that shardpools or shard perpendicularities aren't necessarily the only means of entering or exiting the Cognitive Realm.

 

As for Hoid traveling fast using Worldhopping, I think it's due to his ability/skill/experience manipulating the Cognitive Realm. Presumably, it's easier to dump oneself into the Cognitive Realm than it is to create a stable junction to leave it outside of perpendicularities and other stable junctions.

 

1. http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=691#15

[Voidus]

Not counting people or Shards and that naturally, but I thought I'd seen a WoB that said he was the most heavily Invested object

'One of' I think the wording was from what I remember, not the most Invested.

[Magestar]

I am pretty certain that you can enter the Cognitive realm without a perpendicularity.  It has something to do with how much "weight/pull" you have on the other realms.  Shards are very powerful, and they exist on all three plains.  This gives them a lot of pull.  Sort of like how Einsteins theory of relativity states that massive objects warp space-time, I am saying that massive amounts of power can put a "dent" in the realms.  This makes it easier to transverse them safely.

This would explain, to some extent, how Kelsier disrupted the pits of Hathsin.  He blew up a lot of Atium geodes, releasing a lot of power.  The power release lessened the "pull".  The massive disruption lessened the "stability".  It would also explain how people with enough power/knowledge, I.E Hoid, Jasnah, etc. can "dent" the realms, letting themselves slip through the layers.

 

An "unstable" junction would mean that the layers are a lot less distinct, easy to reach, etc.  Probably because of a power flow/disruption. This would explain why it is more difficult to get through them.

Edited April 21, 2016 by Magestar

[AerionBFII]

Hoid seems to be using a man made boat.

 

 

 

Get it??      

[KidWayne]

Take a look at this post/thread for more info on perpendicularities and sharpools.

Relevant post/thread (sorry my browser at work won't let me post hyperlinks the easy way and I'm too lazy to look up the html for it):

http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/47625-shardpool-question/?p=351997