Sand Mastery Discussion

[Argent]

No, that's what I am disagreeing with The origins of the metal doesn't matter for Allomancy because the metal is just a key. With Sand Mastery, they key is the water - so it is the origins of the water that wouldn't matter. The sand is important, I think.

[Pathfinder]

No, that's what I am disagreeing with The origins of the metal doesn't matter for Allomancy because the metal is just a key. With Sand Mastery, they key is the water - so it is the origins of the water that wouldn't matter. The sand is important, I think.

Lol then yep we are missing a rather large piece of the puzzle in the sand. I wonder if in the canon graphic novel edition will go further into than the book did or will we have to wait for book 2 (4 through 6) or book 3 (7 through 9) to find out. 

[Yata]

Having finished White Sand just recently, I haven't been part of the infamous PM thread, so I'll bring something that seems obvious to me - why are we not considering that water could be to sand mastery what metals are to Allomancy - a key? It is the only two times (outside of Lift) where a magic user turns resources from their own body into magic. 

Actually Argent, I thought also about water as focus, but and I know it's meaningless... I find water like focus...wrong.

 

Maybe just because the "water focus" doesn't explain well (or simply) the reason of Sand discharge after bein used, the whole "create water" thing (that I have to say, it's not easy to explain neither with my model), the lifeform on Taldain (they are quite anti-focus if the water is focus) and the difference between Dayside and Darkside about Magic.

 

One but probably the best analogy I may find:

I see the Sand Mastery like an End Neutral Magic System (or better Sub Magic System) that work with the same bases of Awekening with (Breath=Investiture inside the Sand's Fungus and Color=Water).

 

Of course I may be wrong but I still have to find a better replacement to my idea

[FirstSelector]

I like these ideas, and in particular Argent's allomancy analogy.  However, I disagree that the algae/fungus film that covers the sand is for another topic.  In fact, I think it is of paramount importance.

 

An idea I have had for a long time is that sand mastery doesn't actually manipulate the sand itself, but rather manipulates the film.  The sand "goes along for the ride," so to speak.  The conscious control comes from the fact that the water is drawn out of the sand master's own body.  This generalizes much more easily to whatever is happening with Skycolor - it's just manipulation of very small organisms via water.

 

This also seems to fit with Brandon's statement that the ecology and magic on Taldain are closely connected.  We could easily imagine that different people can control different types of organisms, leading to very different effects.  It also closely matches Roshar - small and large creatures that have a symbiotic relationship with the magic.  Maybe this will give us insight into crem...

 

Slatrification is still a mystery, but I would guess that there is something similar that turns Darkside fungus into water.  Maybe it is the analog of Soulcasting, but only works on sand covered by a particular fungus.

[Argent]

We've never actually seen slatrification on page, have we? Because now I don't think it turns sand into water - I think it extracts water from the sand film. I can imagine a colony of microorganisms, hydrophobic on the outside, hydrophilic on the inside. Given how much and for how long the average mastrell can Sand Master for, I could see this being a viable way of replenishing one's water supply. 

[speedreader9000]

I like these ideas, and in particular Argent's allomancy analogy.  However, I disagree that the algae/fungus film that covers the sand is for another topic.  In fact, I think it is of paramount importance.

 

An idea I have had for a long time is that sand mastery doesn't actually manipulate the sand itself, but rather manipulates the film.  The sand "goes along for the ride," so to speak.  The conscious control comes from the fact that the water is drawn out of the sand master's own body.  This generalizes much more easily to whatever is happening with Skycolor - it's just manipulation of very small organisms via water.

 

This also seems to fit with Brandon's statement that the ecology and magic on Taldain are closely connected.  We could easily imagine that different people can control different types of organisms, leading to very different effects.  It also closely matches Roshar - small and large creatures that have a symbiotic relationship with the magic.  Maybe this will give us insight into crem...

 

Slatrification is still a mystery, but I would guess that there is something similar that turns Darkside fungus into water.  Maybe it is the analog of Soulcasting, but only works on sand covered by a particular fungus.

damnation this theory sounds good. Magic in Taldain makes sense a lot now.

[Yata]

We've never actually seen slatrification on page, have we? Because now I don't think it turns sand into water - I think it extracts water from the sand film. I can imagine a colony of microorganisms, hydrophobic on the outside, hydrophilic on the inside. Given how much and for how long the average mastrell can Sand Master for, I could see this being a viable way of replenishing one's water supply. 

I think we "saw" it only in the end of White Sand, when in the arena Drille tries to performe slatrification but Kenton stops him.

[Argent]

Right - Drile tried to do it, but never finished the process. So we still don't know exactly how it looks and what happens.

[Pathfinder]

Right - Drile tried to do it, but never finished the process. So we still don't know exactly how it looks and what happens.

 

We've never actually seen slatrification on page, have we? Because now I don't think it turns sand into water - I think it extracts water from the sand film. I can imagine a colony of microorganisms, hydrophobic on the outside, hydrophilic on the inside. Given how much and for how long the average mastrell can Sand Master for, I could see this being a viable way of replenishing one's water supply. 

Regarding thinking it is the film, Kenton specifically states the sand is turned into water. He wouldn't state that if there was sand left over after it was done. I can quote the scene if you would like. 

[Argent]

That's a fair point, I was grasping for straws a little bit there.

[Pathfinder]

That's a fair point, I was grasping for straws a little bit there.

No worries. Basically I am re-reading it as we speak, so anything that perks up in my mind I have been throwing up on the forum to see if it has any meaning, or more info could be extrapolated from it. For instance I realized Dayside uses decimal time, but after looking around online, it doesn't seem to be of any note other than an alternative way to tell the time / separate the day. 

 

edit: which actually reminded me. the deep sand terkin sandling in the beginning of the prose novel doesn't have a mouth. So that may affect what we thought of the ecology, and how it gains sustenance. 

 

edit 2: then again it states "Its head- if that was the right term- was little more than a box with deep black spots instead of eyes, with no visible mouth." so just because the mouth was not visible and was not used in the attack, does not preclude he has no mouth at all. hmmmm

Edited May 2, 2016 by Pathfinder

[Pathfinder]

So little point I noticed, unlike allomancy where if you stand in the way of a steel/iron line it does not affect the push or pull at all, with sand mastery if you run your hand (without terken) through the stream it can be disruptive/distracting to the sand master (Khriss curious, passed her hand through the stream, and Kenton asked her not to do it as it is distracting). So the sand does need some cohesion, or steady stream to function or it becomes difficult to hold it all together. Also passing the hand through the stream knocked some particles of sand out turning it black. 

 

edit: hopefully this registers as I have been doubling posting a lot with new info, so trying not to go crazy with it, but found new information about the digestive habits of the sandlings. it seems when sandlings eat sand (bone white), it comes out crystalline. The whiteness is then returned as the sand recharges in the sun. Kenton himself never understood the difference between sandlings turning the sand clear, and water turning it black. 

Edited May 4, 2016 by Pathfinder

[Yata]

Someone in "Mastery at distance" topic wrote that Kenton senses the power in the Sand when he doesn't touch it... but He can't reach it.

 

Also what  Pathfinder said in the post above, the Sandlings "consume" White Sand and turn it in different state, and the Sandlings can't have any kind of water.

 

This may It be taken as  clues (maybe proofs is a too strong word) aganist the water focus ?

[Pathfinder]

Someone in "Mastery at distance" topic wrote that Kenton senses the power in the Sand when he doesn't touch it... but He can't reach it.

 

Also what  Pathfinder said in the post above, the Sandlings "consume" White Sand and turn it in different state, and the Sandlings can't have any kind of water.

 

This may It be taken as  clues (maybe proofs is a too strong word) aganist the water focus ?

I posted a recent follow up to that thread with a quote stating that sand masters can master at range, just that ability is currently beyond Kenton. I have included that quote at the end of my post. Also of note, though I cannot recall what he was wearing at the time, Kenton attempted to touch the sand with his elbow while struggling with an assassin, to master it. I believe he was wearing a robe, so the sleeve could have fallen back so he could touch it with bare skin, or it turns out touch does not require bare flesh to master (for Kenton in particular). Then again, if that was the case, then why couldn't he master anytime he was standing on sand?

 

Page 289

"never mind, I'm coming back up!" Kenton called, reaching for his sand pouch. He paused, however. Powerful sand masters didn't need to be touching sand to call it to life. It was one of the abilities Kenton had always wished he possessed. 

[Yata]

My point was more about the Kenton's quote about "power in the sand", The possibility of Mastery at Distance in the end is meaningless for my point.

 

I was tring to put some evidence about "where the Taldain's Investiture is" and maybe help to discover the Taldain's Focus.

If the power is in Kenton's water and he can't reach the Sand with his power. He would not sense any kind of power in the Sand itself.

The fact he may feel the Sand's power is some clue about an outside source of power (investiture)... This to me disprove the Water's Focus.

 

Much more, your post made me notice the Sandlings live... if they aren't capable to have water but they still remove "power" from the Sand, this also disprove the water's focus.

Edited May 5, 2016 by Yata

[Pathfinder]

My point was more about the Kenton's quote about "power in the sand", The possibility of Mastery at Distance in the end is meaningless for my point.

 

I was tring to put some evidence about "where the Taldain's Investiture is" and maybe help to discover the Taldain's Focus.

If the power is in Kenton's water and he can't reach the Sand with his power. He would not sense any kind of power in the Sand itself.

The fact he may feel the Sand's power is some clue about an outside source of power (investiture)... This to me disprove the Water's Focus.

 

Much more, your post made me notice the Sandlings live... if they aren't capable to have water but they still remove "power" from the Sand, this also disprove the water's focus.

Ah I gotcha now. I will post more as I find anything I think of note. So far only additional thing I found regarding the sandlings are that deep sandlings still attack and attempt to eat humans even though it is lethal for them to do so, and some information I posted in another thread shown below:

 

Dorim vines rise to the surface for sun, and then retreat under ground so they do not dry out. They are the reason there are no deep sandlings as the vines criss cross every 10 feet or so. The vines do not exist in the deep sand however, because they need to stretch down to the rocks below to reach the water. The deep sand is too deep for them to do this as they cannot survive in areas where this distance is too great. 

[Yata]

Dorim vines rise to the surface for sun, and then retreat under ground so they do not dry out. They are the reason there are no deep sandlings as the vines criss cross every 10 feet or so. The vines do not exist in the deep sand however, because they need to stretch down to the rocks below to reach the water. The deep sand is too deep for them to do this as they cannot survive in areas where this distance is too great. 

Maybe it's just about the "Deep Sandling don't know that eating an Human would kill them", they grow and live in an Habitat where any moving being is food for them. Probably they don't process "Human=water=danger" and instead they simply try to make a buffet.

 

Of course it impossible a trial and error, if they eat an human they die and the newcome knowledge of Human as food is lost.

[Pathfinder]

Maybe it's just about the "Deep Sandling don't know that eating an Human would kill them", they grow and live in an Habitat where any moving being is food for them. Probably they don't process "Human=water=danger" and instead they simply try to make a buffet.

 

Of course it impossible a trial and error, if they eat an human they die and the newcome knowledge of Human as food is lost.

Problem with that is even Kenton comments that it is odd, and the native wildlife learned that enough to stay way from shallow sand, and some of the creatures evolved to only exist on the surface (tonks). Finally it was also commented on how you couldn't put tonks on boats because no matter how you stored them, or blinded them, they instinctfully somehow knew they were surrounded by water and would freak out. In our own natural world animals learn to stay away from certain poisonous plants and such, and the deep sand is actually densly populated with small, medium and large sandlings to the point that just being on the edge of deep sand still allowed the Reegent to hunt a large one with its humongous parent nearby. So there would be enough sandlings near by to experience one of their own dying from eating a human to learn from the experience. 

 

interesting tidbit to theorize over:

 

"They believe the Sand Lord manifests himself in sandstorms, that the sand is his body, and the sun is his eye."

Edited May 5, 2016 by Pathfinder

[hoidhunter]

I just finished a re-read...but maybe my memory is not as fresh as I thought it was.  But...by my recollection;

 

White sand = can be mastered (has lichen on outside, is dry)

Black sand = cannot be mastered (has lichen on outside, was recently wet or mastered)

Brown sand = cannot be mastered (was recently eaten then excreted by a sandling) Baon comments that it looks just like darkside sand...but it's actually Tonk poop.

 

I would guess that over time, the lichen reproduces to once again re coat the digested sand, making it white again.  Just like if you scrub of a section of mold on a really moldy area, the remaining mold around it will eventually spread back into the cleaned area.  This has to be the case, otherwise there would be a lot more brown, lichenless, sand lying around the desert.

 

An is it that far fetched to assume that the reason that black sand turn white when left in the sun, it that it simply drys out?  For instance, if you poured some water on some sand, turning it black, then kept it out of the sun, but in a dry warm place, it would eventually turn white again?  I mean...I know that Kenton talks about how only the sun can turn black sand white again...but he also has lived his entire life in a place where the sun shines all the time, and people have an irrational fear of the dark.

 

It seems that (some) sandlings survive by eating the lichen that grows on the outside of sand.  They consume the sand itself, then excrete it with the lichen stripped off.  Other sandlings survive by consuming other sandlings.  Baon also notes that when looking at black sand through a microscope, it resembles sandling carapace.  What if sandlings are just a grown up, or more evolved, version of the same type of organism that grows on the outside of sand?

[Windrunner Savant]

An is it that far fetched to assume that the reason that black sand turn white when left in the sun, it that it simply drys out?  For instance, if you poured some water on some sand, turning it black, then kept it out of the sun, but in a dry warm place, it would eventually turn white again? 

 

I don't think this is necessarily the case. I think that black sand left out of the sun for too long would instead turn brown as the lichen growing on it would die. There isn't a clear food source for the lichen, other than the sunlight. So I think that other than the sun potentially investing the lichen it is also responsible for keeping it alive, which explains why the lichen doesn't seem to exist on Darkside.

[hoidhunter]

I don't think this is necessarily the case. I think that black sand left out of the sun for too long would instead turn brown as the lichen growing on it would die. There isn't a clear food source for the lichen, other than the sunlight. So I think that other than the sun potentially investing the lichen it is also responsible for keeping it alive, which explains why the lichen doesn't seem to exist on Darkside.

Yeah...I knew I was reaching a bit with that one...

 

What do you think of the sandlings are grown up lichen bit?

[Windrunner Savant]

That part rather intrigued me, and as I was typing my response a new theory struck me. What if the sandling is transforming the lichen it eats into carapace? I know this too is a bit of a stretch, but it does make a lot of sense. Also if the perpindicularity is located in the deep sand, as some theorize it is, that might explain how some deep sandlings grow terken carapace, because the lichen it eats would be more affected by the Cognitive Realm.

[Yata]

That part rather intrigued me, and as I was typing my response a new theory struck me. What if the sandling is transforming the lichen it eats into carapace? I know this too is a bit of a stretch, but it does make a lot of sense. Also if the perpindicularity is located in the deep sand, as some theorize it is, that might explain how some deep sandlings grow terken carapace, because the lichen it eats would be more affected by the Cognitive Realm.

Some people think that Terken Carapace is simply Carapace with some trace of Bauxite (raw Alluminium) that disrupt Investiture.

 

@Hoidhunter: your Idea it's quite like the mine, I (and if remember right I posted here in this topic) think the Taldain's Magic Systems are about Plant as a Focus and the poor number of Plan-life on Taldain's Dayside restrict the kind of different Magic they may generate. While on DarkSide with more possible species it's possible to find  more magics

[Pathfinder]

So two minor nitpicks

I just finished a re-read...but maybe my memory is not as fresh as I thought it was.  But...by my recollection;

 

White sand = can be mastered (has lichen on outside, is dry)

Black sand = cannot be mastered (has lichen on outside, was recently wet or mastered)

Brown sand = cannot be mastered (was recently eaten then excreted by a sandling) Baon comments that it looks just like darkside sand...but it's actually Tonk poop.

 

I would guess that over time, the lichen reproduces to once again re coat the digested sand, making it white again.  Just like if you scrub of a section of mold on a really moldy area, the remaining mold around it will eventually spread back into the cleaned area.  This has to be the case, otherwise there would be a lot more brown, lichenless, sand lying around the desert.

 

An is it that far fetched to assume that the reason that black sand turn white when left in the sun, it that it simply drys out?  For instance, if you poured some water on some sand, turning it black, then kept it out of the sun, but in a dry warm place, it would eventually turn white again?  I mean...I know that Kenton talks about how only the sun can turn black sand white again...but he also has lived his entire life in a place where the sun shines all the time, and people have an irrational fear of the dark.

 

It seems that (some) sandlings survive by eating the lichen that grows on the outside of sand.  They consume the sand itself, then excrete it with the lichen stripped off.  Other sandlings survive by consuming other sandlings.  Baon also notes that when looking at black sand through a microscope, it resembles sandling carapace.  What if sandlings are just a grown up, or more evolved, version of the same type of organism that grows on the outside of sand?

First sandling "poop" is crystal like. It is clear, not brown. 

 

That part rather intrigued me, and as I was typing my response a new theory struck me. What if the sandling is transforming the lichen it eats into carapace? I know this too is a bit of a stretch, but it does make a lot of sense. Also if the perpindicularity is located in the deep sand, as some theorize it is, that might explain how some deep sandlings grow terken carapace, because the lichen it eats would be more affected by the Cognitive Realm.

Terken sandlings are very rare, and it is believed terken because they get to be so big/old which can't happen in shallow sand due to the network of vines. 

[hoidhunter]

So two minor nitpicks

First sandling "poop" is crystal like. It is clear, not brown. 

It is actually both.

 

"She gestured him over to three piles of sand.  One was white, one black, and the final one a crystalline brownish color." pg. 689 / 1067, in my version of the document.

 

Here's where I'm going with this.  As we have briefly seen in stormlight archive, investiture can actually help certain organisms to grow and thrive, seemingly acting as a replacement or substitute for things that would ordinarily be required for live, like complex nutrients, etc.  It is, after all, a little bit of the power of creation.

 

 So, we have a life form (the lichen that forms on sand) that seems to be the primary source of energy for the entire ecosystem of dayside.  Sandlings either eat the lichen off of sand or other sandlings.  And humans grow vegetables in sand that seems like it shouldn't be able to support nutritious crops, but sandling is also a staple of the human diet.  One way or another, this lichen is the cornerstone of sustenance for life on dayside.  It also appears to be invested. It also seems like this investment process may somehow resemble photosynthesis (as Yata has asserted). However, unlike most forms of life that we are familiar with, coming into contact with water actually causes it to lose the energy that it has been able to store. It releases investiture when it gets wet, or when it is mastered (which somehow combines it with the water from a sand masters body).......or maybe also when it is eaten???  

 

(I know this is not a particularly organised string of thoughts...thanks for bearing with me.)

 

So...some sandlings eat the lichen, using the investiture that the lichen has stored to provide metabolic energy, and using the physical makeup of the lichen as the building blocks for their own bodies.  Some other sandlings eat other sandlings, transferring that metabolic energy to themselves, and once again using the physical makeup of the victim sandling's body to construct their own.  It stands to reason that the larger sandlings get, the more they have to subsist on larger sandlings as prey, becoming the apex predators of the ecosystem (in deep sand anyway).  However, the downside of sandlings being constructed almost entirely of this lichen (on a basic level) is that something about the physical makeup of all of these living things breaks down when exposed to water...even big, old sandlings that are somehow terken are vulnerable to harm from water.  

 

One of the things that seems counter intuitive to this line of thought, is that water doesn't dissolve the lichen, it simply forces it to expel it's stored investiture.  ????????????????

 

EDIT: Just to add something...in numerology, "terken" means 1.  I know it is seriously reaching...but the number 1 stands alone...or...is autonomous. 

 

EDIT: While I realize that I'm getting away from "Sand Mastery" and focusing more on the ecology of dayside...I find it interesting that sandlings appear to have a perfect metabolism (at least the herbivorous ones).  That is to say, they ingest sand covered in lichen, and excrete sand with no lichen.  No other substance seems to be generated as waste or byproduct of their bodily functions.  This makes me wonder a lot more about the pneumatic nature of sandling anatomy.

Edited May 28, 2016 by hoidhunter