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StormWrath

Why Wasn't Szeth a Skybreaker Long Ago?

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So I was wondering why szeth didn't become a skybreaker a long time ago,and I must say I'm surprised even baffled that szeth hasn't yet bonded or at least attracted a highspren,given how that guy sticks with the law to the very end,hell even the order's patron was attracted to szeth and even invited him to the order,I know some people will object that no spren will choose szeth because some of the things that he does are evil even kaladin mentioned it,but I don't think the highspren will worry about that,skybreakers are all about following the law no matter what,their second ideal is "I will put the law before all else." And to szeth he is just following the laws of the shin.

Skybreakers don't care if their actions seem evil or not right,if you break the law they will execute you without any hesitancy and with no mercy,look at how Nale for example executed ym because he unwittingly played a part in the poisoning and death of a person or how he wanted to execute lift (who's a child) for petty stealing,so I doubt skybreakers and highspren will bother much about szeth previous killings and assassinations because he was technically following the law

Why do you think he doesn't have a spren? Or is that he has already attracted a spren but that the spren hasn't revealed itself to him yet? Like how syl was following kaladin since when he was in amaram's army but never revealed herself to him until he later became a slave in the wagon,personally I do think in my opinion that even if szeth doesn't have a spren now,he'll eventually attract one now that he has been officially invited to the order.

Edited by StormWrath
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There are many possible reasons:
- Highspren didn't come in the Physical to find Humans (like the honorspren but Syl disobey)

- The Honorblade kept away the Spren

- Be a truthless (the worst kind of criminal in Shin's society) made him not appetible to a Highspren

- Something about his oathstone, maybe it's not just a simbolic rock

- Nalan forbits the Highspren to choose Szeth, for his own reason

- .... I suppose I finished the ideas XD

Edited by Yata
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I think that it probably has to do with the whole law-centered nature of the Order. The strict adherence to the law implies that a strict hierarchy should also in place. Therefore, candidates do not haphazardly attract spren; rather, a Skybreaker is initiated when the head of the Order decrees it. In other words, you're a Skybreaker when Nalan says you're a Skybreaker.

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You're all assuming that the "skybreakers" that nalan is inducting him into have anything to do with the nahel bonded skybreakers of old, there's precious little evidence of that.  Seems more likely to me that they're just nalan's little secret society of perfectly ordinary minions, plus whatever trinkets nalan hands out.

 

Were that not the case, and szeth was going to be given a bond to a highspren, what need would there be for nalan to give him something as spectacularly dangerous as Nightblood afterall

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One other thing: IIRC, spren simply don't seem to manifest in Shinovar.

Then once he left, they were probably actively avoiding the honorblade. Syl already finds it dangerous.

Also, assassination is probably illegal in the countries he actually killed people in.

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One other thing: IIRC, spren simply don't seem to manifest in Shinovar.

Then once he left, they were probably actively avoiding the honorblade. Syl already finds it. dangerous.

Also, assassination is probably illegal in the countries he actually killed people in.

I'm sure now that he no longer has a blade he'll get a nahel bond with a highspren

Yeah I'm pretty sure assassination is also illegal in the country that Nale killed Ym,he showed no evidence or proof to having been given the go ahead by the authorities in that country to kill Ym like he did with lift in Azir,and even if assassination is illegal in the countries that szeth committed his many slaughters he was still following the law,according to the shin he's a truthless and must do as his master demands without asking for an explanation,that is also following the law,remember szeth didn't want to kill all those people he massacred,he didn't do it for sport,he did it because he was forced to as per the laws of the shin. I call that perfect skybreaker mentality

Edited by StormWrath
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I hope now that szeth no longer has an honorblade he'll get a bond with a highspren

But now Szeth has Nightblood, some FrankensteinSpren... It would be another block between him and a Highspren

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But now Szeth has Nightblood, some FrankensteinSpren... It would be another block between him and a Highspren

Nah......I don't think so,nightblood wasn't made by the almighty it was made by vasher,its not even from roshar,consider nightblood as a shardblade,even Nale mentions as much,now,if someone has a shardblade he can still bond a spren,renarin has a shardblade and he still bonded with a spren just fine as did dalinar. And Mr. Sanderson said a person can dual wield a shardblade,so it's possible Szeth will dual wield both nightblood and a sprenblade. Just saying

Edited by StormWrath
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You can even maintain two nahel bonds if the spren can be bothered and you can juggle the oaths, IIRC. Storming difficult but you can.

But if spren are uneasy about the honorblades in the hands of mortals would they not fear the living singularity that is Nightblood even more? Honorblades may be dangerous for society to posses, but at least they aren't some sort of black hole for souls.

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I'm sure now that he no longer has a blade he'll get a nahel bond with a highspren

Yeah I'm pretty sure assassination is also illegal in the country that Nale killed Ym,he showed no evidence or proof to having been given the go ahead by the authorities in that country to kill Ym like he did with lift in Azir,and even if assassination is illegal in the countries that szeth committed his many slaughters he was still following the law,according to the shin he's a truthless and must do as his master demands without asking for an explanation,that is also following the law,remember szeth didn't want to kill all those people he massacred,he didn't do it for sport,he did it because he was forced to as per the laws of the shin. I call that perfect skybreaker mentality

tl;dr: Szeth has been upholding a law at the expense of all others.  If this attracted a Highspren, then they aren't nearly as concerned with the law as the Skybreaker's Second Ideal would imply.

 

Let's go with what I think you're saying here for a moment.  (Apologies if I have this wrong.)

 

Claim: The law is to obey the holder of the oathstone.  Szeth obeys this law.  Because Szeth obeys this law, he should/could have attracted a Highspren.

 

Counter: Szeth killed people in Azir.  Many, many times.  He is referred to as a desolation, as a force of nature.  This heavily implies that the killings were not, in any way, lawful.  Nalan, while there, has gone through the steps to ensure that his own killings are lawful in nature--which means that it's a possibility that could happen.  That there is a route for these to take.  That Szeth could have obtained the permission to slaughter the nation's leader through legal channels, and this would have been following the dictates of the holder of his oathstone unless the holder also specifically forbade him to do so.  So, we arrive at a conundrum: either Szeth broke the law by not following the law on his own, or Szeth broke the law by following a different law.  Either way, Szeth broke the law.

 

It makes zero actual sense for Szeth to be included in a group that believes in upholding the law above all else.  Szeth chose which law to uphold and obey, which means he also willfully chose to break others (unless there is some type of magical coercion or compulsion placed upon the oathstone, but there's really no evidence of that being the case.)  It doesn't matter that to uphold the one law, he had to break the others--the Skybreakers are concerned with upholding the law, not of dealing with the consequences when it is impossible to uphold the law.

 

It is possible for it to be impossible to uphold the law (this absolutely happens in the real world within just the US; I see no reason for it to be any different in a fantasy world involving multiple nations).  The Skybreakers don't seem to be very forgiving to people who break the law, and so should show no mercy towards Szeth.  I think he has a very different fate in store.  It seems very likely to me that Nalan is continuing to twist and abuse the laws of nations to create circumstances and events that are favorable to his plans (whatever they may be.)  

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You can even maintain two nahel bonds if the spren can be bothered and you can juggle the oaths, IIRC. Storming difficult but you can.

But if spren are uneasy about the honorblades in the hands of mortals would they not fear the living singularity that is Nightblood even more? Honorblades may be dangerous for society to posses, but at least they aren't some sort of black hole for souls.

I don't think that the Spren are afraid of people wielding honor blades but were more worried about how much influence Odium had over him. That is what makes him truly dangerous.

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They are, if nothing else, seemingly of the opinion that the amount of stormlight Jezrien's blade is consuming is not a good thing. On different issues Syl never really regards it in any sort of reverent light.

On a different Nightblood-related note, the thing actually consumes your soul if you aren't invested, so the spren may actually get eaten if Szeth doesn't have a plan, or slips up.

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I am rather curious on what Syl meant about using dangerous amounts of stormlight - was it dangerous for the Heralds. That may take a while to find out though.

And with the way the Heralds betrayed the Oathpact - not that I really blame them. I would not reaĺly expect her to find the blade reverent - with it having belonged to someone who broke their oaths and many other reasons that we know nothing about.

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tl;dr: Szeth has been upholding a law at the expense of all others. If this attracted a Highspren, then they aren't nearly as concerned with the law as the Skybreaker's Second Ideal would imply.

Let's go with what I think you're saying here for a moment. (Apologies if I have this wrong.)

Claim: The law is to obey the holder of the oathstone. Szeth obeys this law. Because Szeth obeys this law, he should/could have attracted a Highspren.

Counter: Szeth killed people in Azir. Many, many times. He is referred to as a desolation, as a force of nature. This heavily implies that the killings were not, in any way, lawful. Nalan, while there, has gone through the steps to ensure that his own killings are lawful in nature--which means that it's a possibility that could happen. That there is a route for these to take. That Szeth could have obtained. the permission to slaughter the nation's leader through legal channels, and this would have been following the dictates of the holder of his oathstone unless the holder also specifically forbade him to do so. So, we arrive at a conundrum: either Szeth broke the law by not following the law on his own, or Szeth broke the law by following a different law. Either way, Szeth broke the law.

It makes zero actual sense for Szeth to be included in a group that believes in upholding the law above all else. Szeth chose which law to uphold and obey, which means he also willfully chose to break others (unless there is some type of magical. coercion or compulsion placed upon the oathstone, but there's really no evidence of that being the case.) It doesn't matter that to uphold the one law, he had to break the others--the Skybreakers are concerned with upholding the law, not of dealing with the consequences when it is. impossible to uphold the law.

It is possible for it to be impossible to uphold the law (this absolutely happens in the real world within just the US; I see no reason for it to be any different in a fantasy world involving multiple nations). The Skybreakers don't seem to be very forgiving to people who break the law, and so should show no mercy towards Szeth. I think he has a very different fate in store. It seems very likely to me that Nalan is continuing to twist and abuse the laws of nations to create circumstances and events that are favorable to his plans (whatever they may be.)

Well,that certainly makes things a lot more complicated. Yes szeth broke one law and upheld another and it is an impossibility to obey all of those laws together,for example where in jah keved would he get the warrant to kill the king of jah keved?, it'd be interesting to see what a real skybreaker will do in this situation.....but alas! We do know what the leader of the skybreakers themselves thinks of this difficult situation,Nale commended Szeth and said he has never found any person more WORTHY of the skybreakers than Szeth. Nale kills rogue surgebinders,szeth was a surgebinder and kind of a rogue,why didn't Nale hunt him down? It seems to me he doesn't disapprove of szeth actions,Nalan was at the feast when Szeth killed Gavilar,he could easily have intervened and stopped Szeth but he didn't,which is saying a lot.

I think I have answered the skybreaker dilemma,and despite what you mention,the skybreakers would still accept szeth,and you said Nale tries to ensure he has the proper warrant before killing someone,I disagree,as I mentioned above he didn't have a warrant to kill Ym and God knows how many other surgebinders that man has executed unlawfully.

Edited by StormWrath
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We do know what the leader of the skybreakers themselves thinks of this difficult situation,Nale commended Szeth and said he has never found any person more WORTHY of the skybreakers than Szeth. 

I think I have answered the skybreaker dilemma,and despite what you mention,the skybreakers would still accept szeth,and you said Nale tries to ensure he has the proper warrant before killing someone,I disagree,as I mentioned above he didn't have a warrant to kill Ym and God knows how many other surgebinders that man has executed unlawfully.

snippity snip!

 

Nale is quite, quite mad--along with probably all of the Heralds.  They all seem to have turned into twisted versions of themselves. Also, the group that he's with don't seem to be Radiants at all, but just a collection of people.  I do believe that this group, that are not Radiants but calling themselves Skybreakers, would absolutely accept Szeth purely on the say-so of Nale.  From the little we see of them, they don't seem to be keen on questioning him, or thinking for themselves, but instead just mindlessly obeying--although this might just be me.

 

I just don't see any group that actually cares about the Second Ideal of the Radiant Skybreakers accepting him because of his actions thus far.  (Because words are funny, I don't think that his previous actions will preclude the possibility of joining in the future; I simply think that he has yet to show true devotion to following/upholding the law--especially since he had chances and occasions where it seems that he had occasions where he could have and didn't, didn't even try.)  

 

If there's some Law above all the others that this Ideal is referring to, and Szeth happens to accidentally be following it and petty laws of individual nations that include the like of 'murder' and 'assassination' and 'burglary' and 'theft' and 'vandalism' and 'destruction of property' and 'assault' don't count, then maybe you and all of the many, many others that think as you do are right.  I'm just not seeing it, though; I'm seeing hints at something much, much deeper.  (I mean, it's either that, or a story that doesn't ring true to me and is deeply unsatisfying to me--and Sanderson has yet to do that :))

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When Szeth was told to kill Dalinar, he was told it had to be brutal. And I don't see how you can follow the local nations laws to kill/depose said nation's ruler without it taking a great deal of time, and even then it would likely be deposing him on some technicality, and I doubt that could be found for every target. If it could be done, someone in the kingdom likely would have done it. Would an outsider even have any legal option? I think the only laws that apply are Shin laws, and given the oathstone situation....

 

On some of the points in the thread:

 

Agree about Nale and I doubt he is a true Skybreaker anymore.

 

IIRC, so far we know that the shardblades with the dead spren in them feel "wrong" to every new KR we have seen so far that has come in contact with one or more of them.

 

If you have no breath to give to Nightblood, I do not see why Nightblood would kill a spren you are bonded to. The spren is not you. I also think Nightblood's nature -- removing Investiture from the Consmere -- would be a huge turn off to most if not all spren. At least the ones that gain sentience.

 

Agree also about Szeth being used, though maybe his story will eventually lead to redemption. And maybe Nightblood is needed to take Odium on. We don't know why Vasher no longer has it or even when or why he gave it up/lost it. Though he doesn't seem to be concerned about it (though maybe he got tired of its charming *cough cough* personality).

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snippity snip!

Nale is quite, quite mad--along with probably all of the Heralds. They all seem to have turned into twisted versions of themselves. Also, the group that he's with don't seem to be Radiants at all, but just a collection of people. I do believe that this group, that are not Radiants but calling themselves Skybreakers, would absolutely accept Szeth purely on the say-so of Nale. From the little we see of them, they don't seem to be keen on questioning him, or thinking for themselves, but instead just mindlessly obeying--although this might just be me.

I just don't see any group that actually cares about the Second Ideal of the Radiant Skybreakers accepting him because of his actions thus far. (Because words are funny, I don't think that his previous actions will preclude the possibility of joining in the future; I simply think that he has yet to show true devotion to following/upholding the law--especially since he had chances and occasions where it seems that he had occasions where he could have and didn't, didn't even try.)

If there's some Law above all the others that this Ideal is referring to, and Szeth happens to accidentally be following it and petty laws of individual nations that include the like of 'murder' and 'assassination' and 'burglary' and 'theft' and 'vandalism' and 'destruction of property' and 'assault' don't count, then maybe you and all of the many, many others that think as you do are right. I'm just not seeing it, though; I'm seeing hints at something much, much deeper. (I mean, it's either that, or a story that doesn't ring true to me and is deeply unsatisfying to me--and. Sanderson has yet to do that :))

Offcourse Nalan's minions aren't radiants,no one said they were,and I don't think Szeth is just going to be one of his minions,that seems cheap,I mean he gave him nightblood! And he's now personally training him,I think he's grooming him for something big. As to him becoming a skybreaker I've been thinking maybe if the herald of an order intervenes and vouch for szeth to the highspren maybe they'll form a bond with him - this is just my opinion off course,we know nothing of this sort yet,buy just maybe.

I understand what you mean when you are trying to show how Szeth broke some laws and I really don't have answers for them,BUT I'll stick with the belief that if the things that szeth did before will not allow him to join the skybreakers then there's no way the order's patron will approach and invite Szeth to the order,Nale could've stopped Szeth anytime he wanted,he knew that Szeth had an jezrien's honorblade,he allowed Szeth to kill gavilar because he was supposedly working to bring back voidbringers amd parshendi gods,and this is my evidence

“I don’t like this. What we’ve done was wrong. That creature carries my lord’s own Blade.

We shouldn’t have let him keep it. He—”

The two passed through the intersection ahead of Jasnah. They were the ambassadors

from the West, including the Azish man with the white birthmark on his cheek. Or was it

a scar? The shorter of the two men—he could have been Alethi—cut off when he

noticed Jasnah. He let out a squeak, then hurried on his way."

This is nale and another herald talking about the impending assassination of gavilar,this implies that nale may even have taken a part in Szeth acquiring his honorblade,in short SZETH OBEYS THE LAW AS HE SEES IT. I'll leave you with a quote from Nale

"You, Szeth," the man said, "worship order, do you not You follow the laws of your

society to perfection. This attracted me, though I worry that emotion has clouded your

ability to discern. Your ability to... judge."

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You're quoting Nale. If he's insane, twisted, etc. then what he says can hardly be taken as credible/face value.

 

And assassinating most of the worlds leaders is sowing chaos, not order. And Dalinar is not trying to bring the voidbringers back, and is arguably one of the most honorable men around, certainly out of those in a position of power. There's no honor or justice in killing Dalinar. Or Taravangian before Szeth learns the truth about him:

 

He had reached the last name on the list: Taravangian, the king of Kharbranth. A beloved monarch, known for building and maintaining hospitals in his city. It was known as far away as Azir that if you were sick, Taravangian would take you in. Come to Kharbranth and be healed. The king loved all. And Szeth was going to kill him.

 

Edit: As a side note, if Nale was as involved as you suggest then he would know Szeth was not Truthless. Some possibly interesting implications there.

 

Edited by Argel
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So, I know this doesn't have a lot to do with the main discussion, here, but it seems like a lot of people aren't getting that Nightblood basically is a spren, albeit an artificially created one. Because he is on Roshar, he should be able to form a Nahel bond with someone.

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Do we have any WoB that specifically supports that? I thought he was described as being similar to one, but not the same thing. I don't think we can assume it will work the same way. And Nightblood already bonds with his master. Not sure why that would behave differently. Or do you think he can bond twice?

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If he could form a Nahel bond, which surges would be grant? The way I understand it, spren can grant surges because they are parts of/connected to Honor and Cultivation. Nightblood doesn't have that, so would he grant some Endowment surge?

You could argue that it doesn't matter if he's of Endowment instead of the other shards, but he still doesn't match any of the ten surge combinations we know.

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the obvious ?

I think he may not be getting a spren - Darkness has been killin those folks ...

which would beg the question - do all KR orders have spren - Skybreakers might not

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the obvious ?

I think he may not be getting a spren - Darkness has been killin those folks ...

which would beg the question - do all KR orders have spren - Skybreakers might not

The surges come from the spren, and we know Skybreakers have access to two. So they kind of have to have spren.

The reason Nale killed Surgebinders was to stop a Desolation. But the True Desolation has arrived, so he might not have anything against them anymore. We'll have to see.

My guess is that Szeth will start bonding with a spren, and leave Nale's version of the Skybreakers to join the KR one.

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When Szeth was told to kill Dalinar, he was told it had to be brutal. And I don't see how you can follow the local nations laws to kill/depose said nation's ruler without it taking a great deal of time, and even then it would likely be deposing him on some technicality, and I doubt that could be found for every target. If it could be done, someone in the kingdom likely would have done it. Would an outsider even have any legal option? I think the only laws that apply are Shin laws, and given the oathstone situation....

 

 

If you have no breath to give to Nightblood, I do not see why Nightblood would kill a spren you are bonded to. The spren is not you. I also think Nightblood's nature -- removing Investiture from the Consmere -- would be a huge turn off to most if not all spren. At least the ones that gain sentience.

 

To the first: that's my very point.  As I understand it, unless he was given a timeframe to work within, then he had courses of action available that would have allowed him to uphold both laws.  He chose not to, in order to perfectly uphold the single law of the Shin (obey the holder of the oathstone).  Presumably, the Shin have laws against murder as well, so he'd technically be breaking those, too.  And, it's this lack/failure that makes it so unlikely for a highspren to have come along to bond with him prior to now.

 

To the second: It's unclear exactly how Nightblood would go about killing a spren.  It's possible that Nightblood could cleave through one (I recall a WoB to this effect, but have had trouble finding it again.)  It's also possible that the natural Investiture-stealing inherent to Nightblood would spread to any spren that have manifested on the Physical Realm; it seems significantly less likely to affect the Cognitive or Spiritual, although I'm not aware of any WoB specifically referencing this.

 

So, I know this doesn't have a lot to do with the main discussion, here, but it seems like a lot of people aren't getting that Nightblood basically is a spren, albeit an artificially created one. Because he is on Roshar, he should be able to form a Nahel bond with someone.

The Nahel Bond is specifically what happens when a spren bonds with someone to create a Surgebinder.  Spren are Splinters; Nightblood is a Splinter.  There are certain similarities in how things work, but not necessarily in the outcomes.

 

INTERVIEW: Mar 20th, 2014

OUTIS
If an Elantrian bonded to a Seon and traveled to Roshar, would that act as a Nahel bond?
BRANDON SANDERSON
It would act very very similarly, yes. But it would be like… it wouldn't necesarily do the exact same things. It would be treated the exact same way, but wouldn't grant the same powers.

 

 

QUESTION

So Nightblood and Shardblades are both kind of powered by Investiture?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Yes, in fact you can call Nightblood kind of a miss-made, evil Shardblade-- more miss-made than evil but yes.

QUESTION

But a Shardblade wouldn't shear through Nightblood.

BRANDON SANDERSON

Yes a Shardblade would not shear through Nightblood. In fact I wrote The Way of Kings first and then I wrote Warbreaker and The Way of Kings came out after Warbreaker but in my mind Warbreaker is a prequel to The Way of Kings, where I was telling Vasher's backstory.

 

 

INTERVIEW: Mar 11th, 2014 QUESTION
How much more powerful is Nightblood than a a regular Shardblade?
BRANDON SANDERSON
I haven't actually quantified that in my own mind so can't give an accurate comparison at this point. I will say that when he is fully consuming Investiture he can do some really freaky things.
FOOTNOTE
In the past Brandon has described Nightblood as being "magnitudes more invested than a shardblade".

 

Edit: found a couple of WoB regarding Nightblood, adding them here just 'cuz they're interesting.

Edited by kaellok
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Everybody is talking about why Szeth wouldn't attract a highspren but we need to remember that if the spren want people want people that uphold the law they probably want to do this themself too. While some types of spren sended people to bond humans again it is possible that highspren have a law against this, so it is possible that haven't actually sent anybody (yet).

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