Illustrated SA Scenes & Characters

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On 8/5/2016 at 10:47 AM, sheep said:

I filled in the info box with Adolin's information, for those who noticed.  There is a section for where a real facebook page would list your school or university, but Adolin didn't go to school.  I'm still not sure how he even made a Facebook page since he can't read and relies on an ardent to send text messages/spanreed to Shallan.

The answer to that is not to think too deeply.

In the modern AU where Facebook exists, I'd say Adolin actually went to school... Do not forget, Adolin tends to invest himself into anything his society deems important while dispelling anything else for fear of trying out at something not required and being bad at it.

On 8/5/2016 at 10:47 AM, sheep said:

Most authors are aware of readers' reactions, or they try to be.  That's what alpha and beta readers are for, which is the same thing that visual media (tv/movies) or advertising do when they work with focus groups.  The thing about writers is that because they are the sole creative force behind a work, their "blockbuster" level can protect them from publishers and editors wanting to change part of the work that isn't the spelling/grammar proofreading stuff.  Which can be a good thing, since media created by a committee bent on hitting the demographics can be really terrible or just really generic (examples being an unnecessary movie franchise reboot, or idol singer music group).  An author's creative freedom and licence to ignore the advice or wishes of their audience and publisher can be a good thing too, because otherwise it would lead down the dark path of plot armoured characters that lose all dramatic tension, or annoying characters that end up being hated.  Brandon has alpha and beta readers, and he takes their advice sometimes, and sometimes he doesn't - the WoR love triangle subplot was something that the beta readers reacted to in a predictable fashion (because SA wasn't intended to be YA, but somehow a distinctive YA trope fell into it), and we got the Kashadolin setup .  So I think that Brandon is aware that Adolin has fans, even if you don't think he knows it.  He's just too active and communicative with fans and readers not to know, and for someone who plans so far ahead, he won't have forgotten Adolin.

If you end up getting bored of SA before Oathbringer's release, or think Oathbringer is a terrible book because it barely mentions Adolin, that would be a shame.  But it doesn't mean that Brandon thinks Adolin is boring, or thinks readers think that Adolin is boring.  It may be that Adolin's spotlight time isn't just at that moment, and if he were to pander to the audience and include gratuitous audience, it could slow the rest of the story's pacing or make the Sanderlanche less satisfying.  If you look at the statistics here Adolin has had way too much screen time to be a minor character rather than supporting character.  He may not get as much screen time as he has been getting in every book, but in the end the wordcounts will add up to make him a character with more PoV's than a named flashback character.  Being a named flashback character doesn't guarantee anything, since they are confirmed to be possibly be dead by the time their book rolls around, or even that they will have the highest wordcount in their own book.  Kaladin had more pagetime than Shallan and her flashbacks in WoR

Awww, you hate Tyn and Jakamav?   But neither of them are really evil.  If they are "bad" people, it is only because the choices they make are the selfish ones that fit within their culture's definition of morality.  If the plot decides they are to be the antagonists because of this, I don't think it makes them worthy of hate, since they are interesting.  They are either unaware that they are being selfish and callous because they rationalise it as the "right" behaviour, or they know it and go ahead with their dastardly plans because they don't care.  That's what I really like in an antagonist that I don't see very often - the moustache twirling villain who ties a girl to the train tracks, and knows it's bad, but still doesn't go as far as killing puppies for fun.  I like Tyn because she is like an outside viewer of Vorin restrictive prudishness, and because she wasn't indoctrinated with it from birth, she observes the rules because she feels like it.  It makes a contrast to Jasnah, the princess who breaks the rules because she can get away with it.  And Jakamav is to Adolin what Sadeas was to Dalinar, or what Moash was to Kaladin.  If the Shardplate that Teleb wore in the Battle of Narak was Jakamav's, he will be mad at Adolin forever and ever, since that suit of Plate was lost in the chasms with the Everstorm.

 

Based from what I managed to gathered, authors select their beta readers based on the perspective they can add. For instance, a given author will enjoy having one individual who focuses on character development, another one who focuses on tiny details and so one. Obviously, I would guess they try to make their sample as representative as possible from their readership, but this may be easier said than done. In other words, despite the author's best possible effort, it may be the beta readers aren't as representative as they should be. For instance, I'd be a terrible beta reader because I am too focused on one character and not enough on other aspects of the story. Who's to say chosen beta readers do not have similar problems? I can't say truly, but simply because beta reading didn't highlight it does not mean a significant proportion of the readership will agree. 

This being said, I absolutely agree authors should not write simply to pander to their readers, but story are intricately complex entities. Authors will play with their readers expectations, their emotions to steer them in a given direction or to break down tropes on their back. They will built in expectations, make readers anxious to read the denouement, but if they fail to deliver, then the story ends up feeling disappointing. The expectations readers such as myself have with Adolin's character were not born out of thin air, they sprouted directly from the author's own words: he gave the character unexpected but compelling growth while making his story arc end in a massive cliffhanger. The second Brandon wrapped up Adolin's tiny arc in him murdering Highprince Sadeas he pulled out a master stroke. He brought up a character not many readers had focused on to an entire new unexpected level while ending the life of a villain in a rather satisfying way. Everything we got to read about Adolin before chapter 89 suddenly started making sense, finally coming together into a fully fleshed character. He may not be as complete or deepened as Kaladin, but it made the readers stop and ask themselves if there would be more. 

Of course, the author could decide this was quite enough of Adolin and drop the character, but this would not feel satisfying for many readers, independently of the pacing of SA3. While I certainly do not wish for Brandon to start pandering to his readership by solely writing what they wish to read (what a terrible story would this make, I am looking at you Jar-Jar-Bink), I would expect he would acknowledge his readers expectations in a satisfying way. By this, I do not mean changing the written story, but simply putting out a note within those updates for all of those who were looking forward for more Adolin. Publicly acknowledging a non-negligible percentage of his readers actually wish to read Adolin's arc, even if he does not intend to write it, would go a long long way. From an outside perspective, it often looks as if Brandon is completely unaware of how discussed those subjects have been which I know certainly isn't true. So that's what's been grating me for a while, the fact the author has published so many updates (which is great, I love Brandon for his communication skills), but none had anything to say about Adolin. Everyone understands he isn't a major character nor is he a future major character such as Lift, Jasnah and Renarin who get mentioned quite often, but he is still important to many readers. It'd be nice if it was recognized in a more official manner even if it wouldn't mean much for the main narrative. 

Or maybe it merely is I who is craving for outside approval wanting someone to tell me I haven't been completely crazy to spend two years discussing a character within a book who's importance hardly surpassed the stick. Nobody wants to spend such an insane amount of time on a minor irrelevant character: it is too heartbreaking. I'd rather being told I did something good here, something which was appreciated even if it may not turn out how I wished it to, when I initially started. It also is rather selfish.

Worst is I do know Adolin has an arc going into book 3. I also know it is supposed to be quite good, but still, I wish the author would spontaneously mention the character from time to time. It would be reassuring. 

Hating a character isn't negative: it means the character impacted me enough for me to feel something about him. Tyn, I hated her for her tactics to turn Shallan into a con woman. I severely hated the idea Shallan would try to manipulate Adolin to gain advantages: it left a sickening feel in my stomach and all I wished, the second she exposed her colors, was for Tyn to disappear. Hence I cheered when she died, even better since Shallan killed her. For Jakamav, it was a different kid of hate: I hated what he did to Adolin, but at the same time I thought he added interesting conflict within the story. While I hated where the conflict Tyn added, I loved the one Jakamav created. Hence, while I hated Jakamav, I want to read more of him. Tyn, I am just glad she is dead.

On 8/5/2016 at 10:47 AM, sheep said:

Dalinar lives his life teetering on a knife's edge, scared that he will fall into barbarism if he relaxes his standards by one little bit.  It's how he lived ever since he was reformed, and such a big part of his life that the idea that other people don't live by balancing their good and bad sides must be a strange and alien idea.  But he's not totally wrong, since Adolin experiences the same extremes of emotion that get amplified whn he gets stressed, and Kaladin gets his mood swings when he blames himself or it's raining outside.  The most conflict-making part of parental relationships in fiction (and life in general) really comes down to misguided good intentions being justified by "it was for your own good".  And a conflict resolution comes from both parties acknowledging that and moving on.

Hey, don't let an opinion being unpopular stop you from saying what you think.  Why should you let anyone's approval or disapproval stop you from enjoying yourself and expressing your opinion?  I think that is one of the reasons why you like and connect with Adolin so much, and why I like Tyn.  

Were there any regular knights in regular metal armour on the Shattered Plains?  I don't remember reading about about any lighteyed units in Kaladin's PoV chapters, other than the cavalry and archers.  In the border skirmishes, there were regular knights because they were only fighting against humans, with no Shardbearers because all of them would be making real money on the Plains.  On the Shattered Plains, the enemies were warform Parshendi, stronger than humans (they leap chasms instead of using bridges or chull drawbridges) who carry war axes and war hammers as their weapons because they specifically want to counter Shardbearers.  A regular knight wouldn't have a chance unless he is part of a heavy mounted cavalry unit - a metal plated knight's advantage is armour and momentum for quick flanking charges.  Without the height and speed a horse gives, a metal knight would have all the disadvantages of Plate (the portable sauna) with none of the advantage.  I enjoy military strategy games and military speculative fiction, and I think about these things, even if they're not very interesting to character readers.

If Adolin is aware of this, if he has trained with other units like the spearmen he bunked with for a couple of months, I hope he is sensible enough to realise that jumping in the front lines unprepared is very stupid.  Adolin is self-sacrificing when it involves defending the people he loves, but there comes a point where one realises that they're not being very helpful when they're dead.  He's a capable commander, while still having his flaws, or he wouldn't be one of the top Kholin Army officers.  He values the lives of all his men, because the lives of men are priceless, so why should he value his own life any less?  Anyone who doesn't arrive to that conclusion is neck-deep in angst and is close to the sort of eye-rolling drama that involves brooding vampires and the Volturi.

I agree interesting character conflicts sprout from complicated relationships which are more developed than merely having someone be evil and mean for the shake of it. Dalinar certainly wants the best for his son, but alas he is just a man with his own personal issues. I suspect Dalinar, much like Kaladin, is an introverted feeler, which means how he feels about events/people/things direct his behavior, but he does not allow those to come through externally. It other words, unlike expressive and impulsive Adolin, Dalinar kept it all on the inside, bundling into a tight pack, waiting for the right moment to explode. Exactly like Kaladin: always striving to find the rational to justify his feelings and thus take actions. Those two characters are so similar, it is baffling. Young Dalinar perhaps is what young Kaladin could have become had Tien not died: exulting his overload of emotions onto the battlefield, slaying his enemies, claiming it for his own while being capable to assert each man's worth without discrimination. 

Young Dalinar though got out of control. I do not think he ever was a bad person, I read him more as a good person put into an unfavorable situation which exacerbate his negative traits. In other words, instead of being chastised for his lack of self-control each time he felt he had to act, he was praised for it. Thus it escalated up to uncontrollable proportions: each time Dalinar felt strongly about something, he swallowed it up, compensated with alcohol, until he managed to find the right reasoning to justify him taking action. Ultimately, he nearly killed his own brother, there, he took his first step back. Therefore when Dalinar needed to change, he gave himself a strict code to direct his behavior such as to prevent him from taking irrational action based on suppressed emotions, mostly anger. 

Dalinar's take on parenting, given his background, is thus sounds: he wants to give his son a stricter frame than he has such as to avoid him from falling into this old patterns. He rightly identified Adolin as an emotional creature and he rightly wants his son to learn how to express his overload of emotions in a constructive way as opposed to a destructive one. Where he failed is in realizing how sensitive to stress his eldest son is, how much pressure he has put onto his shoulders, how uncomfortable the recent events have made him... This is where Dalinar failed. Had he taken an interest into his son's courtships, had he looked more closely into his tutoring, he would have noticed the signs. I cannot say what difference it would have made or what else Dalinar should have done, based on the character at hand, but had he given his son more leniency, more freedom, then perhaps Adolin would not have grown more capable of dealing with future events. Also, had Dalinar allowed Adolin the possibility to fail would have done wonders because right now, we are stuck with a character who has never known failure and who does not know how to deal with it.

Unpopular which it is, I would thus say it may be Dalinar has not trusted Adolin enough to allow him the chance to make his own mistakes. Unpopular opinions are dangerous because they create controversy and strong reactions which aren't always pleasant to read. I thus find it difficult to always be the bearer of the unpopular opinion, but it always depends on whom I am talking to. 

I do not recall any mentions of regular army knights besides within Kaladin's time in Amaram's army and Dalinar's flashback. My thoughts are thus there aren't enough trained lighteyed to form a cavalry unit as only those from the 4th dahn and up train with swords. There is also the fact horses are rare, expensive and not as common within Alethi armies as they were in medieval ones. Therefore, armored knights are bound to be rare. However, once removed of his Shards, Adolin is likely still going to be asked to go to war. He is going to have to put on an armor, just as Dalinar used to wear one back in his young days, and he will carry a sword while mounting a horse. He'd essentially become an armored knight. Which efficiency will he have as such? It is hard to tell, really. 

I agree Adolin is a capable commander, but we must also remember he is a very young one and, more importantly perhaps, he is one which has never known defeat. He knows how to win, he knows how to come up on top, he knows how to craft a strategy to obtain a crucial advantage, but he does not know how to lose. By losing, I do not mean "not getting the gem stone", but a defeat. A real heart-felt defeat. A battle where he needs to sound the retreat, where he needs to see his men go to safety because it is either that or death. He has never lived with the knowledge his decision making onto the battlefield led to defeat and this is dangerous into a commander. A real good one knows how to win, but he also knows how to lose: Adolin is missing half of his tutoring which is why young men of 23 years of age aren't usually given full command of large armies. They aren't groomed enough for it yet. Therefore, once Adolin is faced with a situation which cannot be won through his clever strategy making or worst one made worst by a bad decision he makes, how he is going to hold up? My thoughts are Adolin has seen himself as the pillar, the rock, the protector for so long, he'd have a hard time moving from this role. Back at the Tower fight, he refused to retreat: he wanted to get to his father. Kaladin had to talk sense into him: you can't go, your Plate is broken, you are too exhausted, you can't leave your men without leadership, you have to cross to be with them. If battles turn bad again and Kaladin isn't there, what is Adolin going to do? My guess, he'll stay back, making sure everyone has escape and he'll leave last, even if it means he may end up being trapped behind enemy lines. His instincts won't be to be a good commander, but to make sure everyone is alright

On 8/5/2016 at 10:47 AM, sheep said:

The reason why I think Navani could be a good parental figure for Adolin was because in the beginning of WoK, Adolin thought Dalinar was going crazy and all of their "allies" were distancing themselves from the Kholins because they all thought he was going weak.  Navani was one of the few people that Adolin and eventually Dalinar could trust, and later on fully confide in.  Adolin trusted her from the start, when Dalinar was giving her the cold shoulder, and was willing to discuss what to do with Dalinar and the abdication.  Normally Adolin doesn't talk about this stuff because he wants to look confident in front of other people, but Navani knew.  The only other people he has trusted enough to tell them the truth about his weaknesses and vulnerabilities was Kaladin (the girl advice) and Shallan (the first date).  When they are busy doing Radiant things, Navani will be the only non-Radiant he can trust.  Navani's character quirk is that she perceives her own value as a person based on how much other people need her.  Without it, she feels useless.  She's not a queen or a wife anymore, and her children have outgrown her so she doesn't feel like a mother.  Even Renarin has better things to do these days.  Adolin (and Elhokar if he stays normal) is the person in the best position to connect with her.  It would be heart-warming if it happened, and if they also happened to discuss Shshshsh, it would tie in nicely with Dalinar's flashbacks.

The relationship in between Navani and the Kholins has yet to be truly fleshed out as while she mentions how she couldn't be close to him, after he married Shshshshsh, she still managed to develop a working relationship with the boys. Well, with Adolin mostly or so it appears. I see it as obvious, from textual evidence, Adolin loves his aunt. It is also obvious he more or less sees her as the older woman presence he lost: either she wanted it or not, she became Adolin's mother figure. Somehow, having parental figures is important to Adolin, so when he lost one, he turned to the next possible available one. It is a strange behavior considering Adolin has positioned himself as the pillar of his family, the strong one, the capable one,the confident one, the one they should all rely on and they do rely on him. It is therefore peculiar seeing how important it is to Adolin to appear mightily strong, at all costs, to see him yearn for Navani's motherly attentions. 

The talk you referred to was actually rather adorable: he asked Navani and his father. He asked if his father seduced her... Ah it made me sad: he is trying to get clues as to how to seduce Shallan perhaps?

It may thus play out as you say, but I have filed in Navani as a wild card. It is hard to say where her alliance may fall: Dalinar (her lover), Shallan (her surrogate daughter) or Adolin (the affectionate nephew)?

On 8/5/2016 at 10:47 AM, sheep said:

I think my cringe from reading certain romance plotlines comes from their being badly written and not really representative of a healthy relationship between two emotionally stable and mature adults.  When I was younger, I was perfectly happy to read the really shallow stories where the main character gushes over how the hottest guy in school looked in her direction.  And when I got older, I realised that you can't build a long-term relationship off "omg he's so hotttt" and any plot-contrived relationship drama that can be solved by people sitting down and having a talk, or a phone call or text message, is just stupid and unrealistic.  It's not necessarily the age gap between characters that makes me dislike a novel, but rather how unrealistic or poorly written it is.  Molly and Burrich had something like a 15 year age difference, but I didn't get a cringe reaction from that.  I would say my current "pickiness" comes down to being aware of what exactly ticks my boxes now that I've read enough to tell apart the good from the bad.  Even nostalgia isn't enough to make the terrible novels I read as a teen enjoyable.

There are always classic children's books if you dislike stories by modern authors.  The ones about animals are always appealing to both girls and boys (I don't know if 6 year olds have gotten into the stage where they think the opposite gender has the COOTIES!!!).  Doctor Dolittle, Charlotte's Web, Lassie Come-Home, King of the Wind, or Redwall, for example.  They might be extremely tropey and full of predictable characters (and sometimes literal underdogs), but kids don't care about that and they were written 30+ years ago so the prose is better than what many modern children's or YA authors use these days.

The problem may be most romances aren't plausible to begin with: real-life romance perhaps isn't tragic enough for fiction. Authors are also yearning to create conflicts within their characters to make them interesting and the easiest one is to either write a love triangle or have both character start up yelling at each other. These has to be the easiest romances to write because he you hardly even have to think about adding complexity. Adolin/Shallan is thus more challenging than Kaladin/Shallan because they actually get along, they like each other. The conflict will sprout from their personal issues and their lack of transparency towards one another. Also, relationships aren't solved by one trip down in a chasm: they are solved through longer period of time. There is a building required, something.

I actually cringed when I read Burrich and Molly... I thought he was a bit old for her and I was surprised she'd settle with him, but then again, I read this story several years ago. I wanted her to choose Fitz, but Fitz was irresponsible and not capable of raising a family. She needed someone stable, strong, capable. Over time, they ended up making sense, but my initial reaction was slightly disbelieving. 

My own pickiness probably comes from the fact I never believe in haters becoming lovers. When I was a kid, I used to have my favorite enemy, this boy which I was completely antagonist with up until friends started saying it must be because I loved him. I didn't. I was too young for love anyway, but it stayed: why would I love him simply because I like to poke at him? I guess it never clicked. I also ended up dislike how those romances end up being reaching their peaks within a few days... oh come on. You spend one week-end in Alaska and suddenly you are madly in love? I don't buy it.

My daughter is well aware she is a girl, but she tends to share more interests with the boys. She likes playing with girls, but she does not share their typical interests (Barbie, dolls, Frozen, Monster High). She's can also play rough, she's always fighting with her brother and she loves to tumble around with the boys. She is a bit discouraged to find out her favorite show has been labelled "for boys": I told her TV shows were for everyone. She really love animals such as reptiles, dinosaurs, dragons, snakes, turtles, fishes. She likes ninjas and fighting tumbling around characters: one of her favorite ninja is the robot one... because she thinks it is cool he is a robot. I bought new beginners readers books. A thing called Beast Quest featuring a young boy named Tom. They didn't have anything with dragons and a girl character. I mean DinoFroz could have add one girl within their foursome... Ninjago at least has one girl. Stupid children show, but as for books, I think first stop currently is: learning how to read. Can't wait.

On 8/5/2016 at 10:47 AM, sheep said:

You forget that a marriage involves two people.  Adolin might be pressured into a marriage, but even though Alethkar might be prudish with values different to modern Earth, any girl with a rank in the upper dahns high enough to be considered a potential wife would not be forced to marry against her will.  All of those girls that courted him would have married him if they were forced to do it, because he is the heir to a Highprince, but they chose to dump him because he did something they didn't like or disapproved of, and since he's not really a bad guy, they were all insignificant things easily overlooked by a real gold digger.  The only woman who could be forced into marriage would be someone low ranking and without connections, like Laral, but why would Adolin marry someone who would give no advantage when he doesn't even love her?  Even Shallan had the connection to Jasnah to her benefit.  I see Adolin as more likely to die alone than choose a loveless marriage.  Certainly it is not something that Dalinar or Navani would force on him, since they would have the experience to understand how unhappy an unhappy marriage can be.

I personally like reading unorthodox protagonists because they tend to be less predictable and therefore more interesting than the plain vanilla heroic underdog.  Not that I dislike heroic underdogs who start from nothing and work their way up, as long as they have depth that is more than "I do good things because it's the right thing to do".  But someone who breaks the mould and is a sympathetic protagonist who is shown as sympathetic because they do things other than rescuing cats from trees and dogs from wells is interesting in this age where the fantasy genre is simply flooded with generic everyman sword-swinging dragon slayers.  Kaladin as a struggling bridgeman was interesting, because he was inventive and it reminded me of Ender figuring out how to win the battles in battle school when the odds were stacked against him.  Kaladin as an overpowered Radiant with chronic hero syndrome is less interesting - but at least that is more interesting than the Kaladin (Merrin lol ) who took Helaran's Shards and became a Shardbearer.

I think many more people would dislike Shallan if she had no flashbacks.  Without it, she's dangerously close to a Mary Sue dream girl whose only visible flaw is her sense of humour (to those who think she tries to hard to make unfunny fart jokes funny).  Her past makes her more complex and justifies some questionable decisions, and since I like pragmatic heroines who are willing to do illegal or bad things because they are the right thing to do, Shallan's magical amnesia preventing her from accepting her past actions makes me disappointed.  Not only is it hurting herself and Pattern, her mental denial response to prevent accidental triggering is stopping her from moving on and being a total butt kicker of a character and doing interesting things.   If Wax had the same habit and he'd moved on from Lessie too quickly, it would have made his move to Elendel less significant, and his developing relationship with Steris less meaningful.  Adolin is already likeable as a character, and in the narrative sense he doesn't NEED a flashback for readers to understand his motivations.  All the justifications for his actions in the story so far have been the result of things that have happened in the last few months, with Dalinar's visions going public.  If he survives the first half of SA, I'd be more interested in seeing a more mature and level-headed future Adolin.

In the case of the forced marriage idea, I was working under the assumption the necessity of Adolin marrying trumps all other considerations. It may also be Dalinar will not be patient with his forever and after the fiasco of Sadeas's death, he'll be less inclined to have his son marry "for love". He find the pressure to use his heir as a bargaining chip to secure must needed alliance hard to resist. This being said, the other girl would likely be one of those Adolin previously dated, so it'd be awkward, but with the right incentive, I think the Kholins could convinced at least one young woman to marry him. Of course this depends on how he is viewed after murdering Sadeas, nothing is ever certain. This certainly ranks among the unlikely story arc, but I have tried to run it in my head see how it'd go. The answer is: terrible. It traps Adolin into a situation he has no agency to improve and instead of having him grow into being able to develop a true lasting relationship, you basically have him despair into a fake one. All in all, a bad arc, a bad bad bad arc.

I also have come to dislike protagonists who end up being too predictable or too powerful. Having your character being able to single handily defeat any opposition is not exactly interesting and if, on top of it, you make him unassuming or worst you give him a hero complex, it becomes a tad too overdone. Kaladin's story in WoK was compelling because he was being resourceful and pro-active: each time he stumbled, he got back down on his feet and tried a new avenue. Kaladin in WoR is less interesting because he lost this quality and instead gain a God complex combined with a martyr syndrome which made him tedious to read and harder to relate to. He also shown his truer colors: he isn't a sympathetic individual and while we all give him leniency for it, it does not change the fact his likability tends to be directly proportional to his ability to be at the center of cool actions scene. In other words, a lot of people like Kaladin because he has the best scenes, the most OMG moments, the life or death moments where he barely wins (even if the readers all knew he was not really in danger). In order to give a greater sense of dread, Syl should have been gone longer. To have Kaladin kill her and gain her back a few weeks later is just anti-climatic. A larger arc there would have done wonders, but it probably didn't fit within the main narrative especially since this arc was not supposed to play out until much later in the books.

I agree Shallan's flashbacks were needed to understand the character: it may also be why Brandon advanced them to book 2 when he was supposed to write Dalinar's. It may be a realized the readers would never develop any emotional link with Shallan if he didn't broach her past, soon. This being said, her mental blocking is getting annoying. I love Shallan when she is pro-active, when she does not take no for an answer, but I dislike when she goes back to thinking she needs to forget to remain functional. I hate when he purposefully refuses to face her past and while I agree she had a trauma, it has been pushed to the extremes. I severely question the realism of having someone being incapable of summoning memories for years such as herself while being functional. I am not even sure this is possible and if it is, it has to be highly unlikely. This is one critic I have: Brandon has put so much stuck in Shallan/Kaladin he made them less realistic. It probably is why I prefer Adolin who sounds more real and plausible to me. I don't buy that Shallan can't remember: it isn't she can't, it is she does not want to. And it has been played out long enough: now is time to move on with her character. Hopefully, it will happen.

Well maybe Adolin does not need flashbacks, but it still would have been nice. I'd love to read how he ended up developing the relationship he now has with his father/brother. This may never truly be explained.

On 8/5/2016 at 10:47 AM, sheep said:

That's the difference between characters who are revealed to have hidden depths previously unknown to the audience.  In the case of Steris, her disability doesn't stop her from making herself useful in unexpected ways, exploring her skills and showing what she is capable of to the reader.  Steris is organised and meticulous and plans obsessively, and it's shown to the reader first as a character quirk, and later in a humourous way when they are at the hotel, and then even later it pays off in a satisfying way.  

In comparison, what exactly are Renarin's hidden depths, his secret skills?  (Disregarding his Radiant surges since we don't even know his oath leve.)  Previously he was known to be a quiet but careful thinker, he likes wine, can read and write glyphs, and is interested in fabrial science.  Most of this is mentioned in one or two lines, or inferred by the reader and not outright stated.  And of this, how much of it has been used as a plot point or Chekhov's gun?  The answer is very little, and of that, the glyphs scratched on the walls wasn't entirely voluntary and was attributed to Dalinar the whole time.  That's why Renarin comes off as boring and passive.  His skills are never demonstrated on-screen as Steris's are, and his ridiculously high pain tolerance when he summons and holds his dead Shardblade is only inferred by the reader because Renarin has no PoV chapters.  And it is not exactly an example of being pro-active since he just accepted it as a normal part of being a Shardbearer and called himself a coward for not being able to do anything but stand there and hold it (see that conversation with Adolin right after Jakamav unfriends him).  

Honestly, most of this comes from Renarin just being in the background all the time as a minor character rather than the supporting cast.  If more of his identity, personality, and skills were explored, I'm sure he would be a more sympathetic character rather than a pathetic one.  He has done very little, and because of that, he has very little to redeem himself in your eyes, since you do not automatically think him an endearing character because of his disabilities.  Which is a reasonable response, because to me, a character's likeability should stand on the strength of their characterisation.  After all, you aren't automatically obliged to like every female protagonist you read just because you are female yourself.  

If you dislike the idea of Renarin being a focus character, remember that being a focus character doesn't mean he will get the most screen time.  If Kaladin survives past SA#5, I would not be surprised if he is still the spotlight stealing, one-liner spouting underdog hero we all know and love.

Yes, Steris is a fun character and while she has no POV, it doesn't deter from her growth. She works with her disability instead of against it.

Renarin perhaps has hidden depth, but he is never seen playing them or using them. All we are told is he has an interest in fabrials. Alright. Fine. What does it mean for the main narrative? Nothing. All in all, he does not seem to do nothing but complain over his disease and that is not interesting unless you really are into his character and you love ah, I have to say it, the "trauma stick". Arguably Renarin is not using he kind of "trauma stick" I find interesting to read. He has yet to find his agency which I hope happens soon,

I would also point out Renarin as about the same visibility of Steris within Mistborn: once comes across as a strong revelation and a good character while the other one struggles to gain understanding. Having disabilities is not something I naturally find endearing in a character: in a general manner, I find most author will use the disability to create artificial hardships or built-in excuses to justify why the character isn't doing anything. Renarin is sulking and feeling useless? It isn't his fault: he has a disability in a world which only praises warriors. That's my problem: even in his bad traits, he has no agency. Nothing is ever his fault, be it his good or his bad traits, it is all not him. It is this disability. This annoys me.

Spoilers alert: someone posted something which hinted Kaladin does survive the first arc.

 

[Darkness Ascendant]

I wish I was good at digital art.

I  guess traditional will have to do for now, until I get the proper tools and time for digital :/

 

[sheep]

On 12/08/2016 at 1:43 AM, Argent said:

Oh, like 2 months ago

I'm curious - what made you come back to this thread?

I am aware that my art style isn't appealing to everyone (like my old art teacher, haha), and doesn't match everyone's mental images of what fictional things look like, and that's a perfectly valid reason not to have any interest in this thread.  I find it kind of unusual that you gave it another go.

 

On 12/08/2016 at 5:58 AM, Rasarr said:

As always, an excellent art batch, even if for some reason, I can't get over Adolin's trademark Kholin® wetsuit and surfboard. Do they sell those in sets?  I think I've been speculating about Vorin swimsuit in You Know You're A Sanderfan thread (I ended up with what was basically burqini without head cover and with safehand glove - vorkini!), but you're right, that's more fit to darkeye ladies. Perhaps ligheyes would have some sort of rigid swimming pocket sewn into their left sleeve? It would probably be awful to actually swim in, considering how just holding something in your hand can impact movement in water. 

Love that highstorm picture, especially the way the face in the storm and the shape of the window make it look like it's a humanoid figure. The only - only! - minor complain I'd have towards this batch of arts is that iron and steel allomancy works towards and away from body's centre of mass, so no way Wit would be able to do this trick unless his right hand is his centre of mass. But it looks cool!

Also: there is such thing as Cosmere guys pinup calendar... I am quite literally out of words 

It's all custom.  When you're rich, you can get everything made to order and personalised.  Kaladin gets his clothes one-size-fits all at the quartermaster's storage room, but Adolin's underpants probably have his initials monogrammed on the waistband.

Jasnah goes full skin when she takes a bath.  The practical answer to "what to wear when at the pool" for high ranking Vorin ladies is to have separate areas for swimming.  But if a lady wants to swim with the guy, the realistic solution is something prudish and Victorian-esque, like a black woollen drawstring sack that goes around the wrist and turns into a wet lump when wet, instead of clinging to the skin like silk would, or high tech scuba fabrics.

Yeah, when I drew Wit I realised halfway through that if he did this with canon physics, the coin would fly off at an angle in the direction of the viewer.  But it wouldn't look as cool, so my excuse is artistic licence.  One of the Misborn E2.0 books had a character asking Wax about his coinshotting abilities and how weirdly it mixes with his feruchemy in unexpected ways, and Hoid has other magical abilities from his home planet.  Maybe they would react with allomancy so he could control certain effects.

With a large enough fandom, it's only a matter of time for weird niche topics or crossovers to come into existence.  

 

On 12/08/2016 at 6:27 AM, Argel said:

Impressive results, though I think you need therapy for that level of self-torture!

YAY!!!!!!!!!!! Thank you!!! Great one!! Liked the inclusion of The Stick!! Liked Kaladin's surfboard design!!

I used to draw on MS Paint with a mouse, which is not very far from the party games in the Tenth Circle of Braize.  Even Taln would hesitate to make a heroic last stand if he knew that  was what he was facing.  Hooks?  Fires?  How about carpal tunnel!
I don't know what I was thinking back then... It probably builds character or something.

 

On 13/08/2016 at 2:50 AM, CarolaDavar said:

How do you do faces?! And people in general?! (Really, any tips?)

The most important part is understanding the shape of the body and how it looks when you view it from a bunch of different angles.  Learn the shape of the skull and human skeleton and how all the muscles layered on top work, and they are pretty much the basics you need to know to draw recognisable humans.  Use a mirror to practice faces and expressions and learn the proportions of the human face.  There are certain proportions most people have in common, such as the placement of the eye sockets and nasal cavity, and once you have them down everything gets easier. 

EXAMPLE

Spoiler

 

For figure drawing, if you don't have live subjects to practice with, I suggest Posemaniacs.  You can view the skeletons from a bunch of different angles and rotate them - the 3 minute drawing exercise is useful for building skills.  

Once you learn "the rules", you can start deliberately breaking them, and learn to stylise.  It's usually what art teachers suggest you do first, since you become a more flexible artist if you learn all the "classics" before branching off into developing a personal style.  I have plenty of stories about the art teacher I had as a kid who said it was a waste for me to spend my time drawing comic book things and cartoon dragons when I could be more productive drawing fruit bowls in charcoal.

The real secret to getting good is grinding.  Endless, endless grinding.  
You don't have to draw every single day, but you have to do it consistently.  

Here's something crazy - this is about 6 or 7 years' worth of sketchbooks.  That's 1 A3 size book, 5 A4 books, a handful of lined notebooks, and 4 A5 books.  The coffee mug is for size comparison.  I don't do "a sketch a day" that some artists do, but I try to draw on a regular basis.  Sometimes I can go weeks without drawing on paper, and sometimes I can burn through 30 pages in a weekend.  

NOTEBOOK PILE

Spoiler

And here is something from the first pages of the oldest notebook.  Feel free to laugh.

POINT AND LAUGH

Spoiler

 

 

On 19/08/2016 at 6:32 PM, Darkness Ascendant said:

I wish I was good at digital art.

I  guess traditional will have to do for now, until I get the proper tools and time for digital :/

Expensive tools aren't a cheat code to suddenly being amazing.  That's one of the most repeated rules in art that get quoted whenever a newbie artist asks whether or not a Wacom Cintiq will up their art-game.  Fancy Japanese knives with the ripple lines on the blade won't turn you into a professional-level chef if you can't cook.

Improve your pencil and paper skills.  It will improve your skills in other areas of art you decide to venture in the future.

Honestly, sometimes I feel that all the shortcuts in digital art have weakened my traditional art game and taught me some bad habits.  Instead of placing lines more neatly and more precisely in pencil, my muscle memory has been trained to mash the CTRL+Z command (Undo), so I am messy in a way that would make my art teacher frown.  My lines are what he used to call "hairy lines" instead of one single continuous stroke.  And the small working area of a tablet has trained me out of doing sweeping gestural "whole arm" strokes for long lines because only "wrist strokes" fit on a tablet.

When I pick up a pencil for the first time in weeks and draw on paper, my first thoughts are often "Man, I could do this and this on the computer and it would look so much better" and that's probably an indication I should get better at traditional.

 

 

On 13/08/2016 at 11:34 PM, maxal said:

In the modern AU where Facebook exists, I'd say Adolin actually went to school... Do not forget, Adolin tends to invest himself into anything his society deems important while dispelling anything else for fear of trying out at something not required and being bad at it.

In a modern AU where Facebook exists, Adolin wouldn't be a Shardbearer or participate in duels.  So there's a chance he and Jakamav would still be friends.  Being illiterate would be pretty much impossible in a modern world, so AU Adolin would be monolingual, dislike mathematics, and is the type of person who watches the movie and skims the Cliffnotes edition rather than read the school-assigned book.

Focus groups or test audiences are a staple of market research for designing products, and a  guaranteed bestselling novel from a reliable and proven author is, essentially, a product being sold at the end of the day.  So having beta readers is a useful thing, but because the format of a novel means that it has one main creator, it's completely up to Brandon how much he listens to the readers.  His book will sell thousands of copies no matter what he does.  TVTropes calls it "Protection from Editors".

Brandon giving updates and being communicative with the fan community is fantastic and sets him apart from other authors who aren't so interactive, but it's not something I expect from an author, or from anyone involved with creating serial media that I enjoy.  I mean, it's great that he does it, but I don't expect him to, nor do I think anyone should feel he is obligated to be as communicative as he is.  It's like if Holt Renfrew had a members' club, and  if you spent $500 in a year and scanned your members' card with every purchase, you got a gift bag with scented lotions and shampoo and stuff.  Holt Renfrew doesn't have to give you a gift bag, and it would be silly to be angry if the next year you bought $500 worth of stuff and they cancelled their offer and you didn't get the gift bag.  Because you got $500 worth of goods for your $500, and that is all they're obligated to give you.  So it kind of bothers me if people think Brandon is expected to acknowledge his readers.  It is nice that he does, but it shouldn't be taken for granted, and I think it's a healthier attitude if everyone is happy that Brandon answered a question at all rather than being disappointed that he has left questions unanswered.  I have been to non-Brandon signings before and no other author answers questions like he does.  Most of them just sign your book and hustle you along to make room for the next person.

And it could be that Brandon doesn't answer everyone's questions because he would rather not answer than give a short answer that has the potential to lead readers to assume things so they end up reading the next book with biased perceptions, and ruining the experience.  Kinda like watching the movie first before reading the book - your mental imagery is all skewed and if you know who dies, the suspense is gone.  Or it could be that anything he might hint about is a spoiler.  In that case, it's better to go silent because saying "RAFO" over and over is frustrating to him and to the people who ask the questions.  

I think it's just you being so obsessive about Adolin.  The solution, but you probably already know it, is to read other things.  

You dislike Tyn and Jakamav because they were mean, directly or indirectly, to Adolin... That's an interesting way to react to characters.  I don't think they actually hated Adolin, or even knew him that well, really.  They were more self-centred and self-serving than deliberately antagonistic towards Adolin, and that is why I don't hate them like you do.  In fact, I wish Tyn had stayed alive for a little longer, because Shallan could have learned more neat tricks and she was in no danger of being turned evil.  But she had to die so Shallan could learn independence, for the same reason why Jasnah and Lin Davar had to go.

Also - regarding unpopular opinions.  Downvotes and upvotes are just imaginary internet points.  The official justification for giving downvotes is for people who are needlessly rude or offensive (-insert character- is -insert swear word-, personal attacks and insults, etc), or are off-topic (derailing, spam).  Downvotes aren't meant to be used when your opinion is different from someone else and you're too lazy to counterthem with a post.  But people still do it anyway because lol rules r 4 chumps.  And that's why you should ignore them if it bothers you so much.  It's not like these silly points do anything.  

 

On 13/08/2016 at 11:34 PM, maxal said:

I agree interesting character conflicts sprout from complicated relationships which are more developed than merely having someone be evil and mean for the shake of it. Dalinar certainly wants the best for his son, but alas he is just a man with his own personal issues. I suspect Dalinar, much like Kaladin, is an introverted feeler, which means how he feels about events/people/things direct his behavior, but he does not allow those to come through externally. It other words, unlike expressive and impulsive Adolin, Dalinar kept it all on the inside, bundling into a tight pack, waiting for the right moment to explode. Exactly like Kaladin: always striving to find the rational to justify his feelings and thus take actions. Those two characters are so similar, it is baffling. Young Dalinar perhaps is what young Kaladin could have become had Tien not died: exulting his overload of emotions onto the battlefield, slaying his enemies, claiming it for his own while being capable to assert each man's worth without discrimination. 

Oh Dalinar.  He is a hammer and all problems are nails, and therefore can be solved the same way.  The more I think about it, the more I believe that Adolin's situation isn't a problem caused by Dalinar being a failure of a father, who was too much focused on the greater good and producing a perfect son, but rather a side effect of the warrior culture in Alethkar.

If Dalinar was a monster when he was the Blackthorn, it was lauded and glorified by Alethi culture, and he was considered the greatest warrior in the newly unified country.  He's a product of his society, and his bad habits were not criticised; Dalinar only decided killing indiscriminately was wrong on his own, because no one ever told him not to.

Alethi society seems pretty weird and alien when you think about it from a wider perspective, because doting parents are rare (people like Sadeas and Kaladin think Renarin is spoiled and soft because of how gently he is treated), and children are expected to be more obedient and self-sufficient than anyone expects of modern-day Earth children.  You have Adolin starting training at 6 years old, Kaladin beginning his surgeon apprenticeship at 10, lighteye children in the city being officers' aides, Tient being recruited at 13, Kaladin being in a combat unit at 15, and Laral and Navani married at 16.  So what Alethi in general expect of children is something that would never fly by our modern day viewpoints, with laws against child labour and making important decisions up until age 21.  That's possibly why Dalinar doesn't seem anything unusual in the way he and Adolin have a father-son relationship, because it is within the normal range of behaviour for fathers and sons, with some veering into the strict end because Adolin is his heir as well as his subordinate officer.

A character reader would of course be focused on Dalinar as the source of the conflict in a family drama, but I think it's a bit more than that.  People are products of their environment, and the society that promotes manipulation and backstabbiness for power is the same one that encourages the search for excellence as a test of worthiness.  This last one is probably ingrained in Adolin since he had ardents as tutors as a kid, and from what we've seen, lighteyed children are taught from a young age Vorin priests owned by their parents.  It's great worldbuilding, but a messed up world.

Does any Alethi commander really know how to lose?  In their mind, the loser is the person who gives up first, which is why years after being forcibly pacified b Gavilar, they're still fighting pointless border skirmishes.  And that is why they continued to wage a war of attrition against the Parshendi.  If Adolin learns how to command and regroup a battalion after a complete rout rather than a strategic defeat, he might be mentally broken because of it, but in the end he'll be more experienced that any other commander.  I don't think even Kaladin knows how to lose for reals.  The last time he felt real defeat was the Honor Chasm in WoK and he only recovered from it because he had Syl.

And Adolin didn't have to be the pillar of the family to everyone until Dalinar started getting visions.  Does anyone know when the first visions happened?  Dalinar didn't start reading The Way of Kings until Gavilar died, and the visions came later, so Adolin would have had a more normal childhood (or whatever the Alethi version of "normal" is) until then.  He would have been open to accepting Navani as a parental figure when he wasn't expected to be the strong one back then.  

Navani's loyalty is also a character trait of hers - even though Jasnah distanced herself and she knows that Elhokar is a weak king, she still supports them.  She didn't love Gavilar but she was faithful for their 25+ years of marriage.  She wouldn't throw Adolin over for Shallan, who may be a scholar and a Radiant, but has only been known to the Kholins for a few weeks.  If Navani decided Shallan was more worthy of emotional support and counsel than Adolin, that would be kind of annoying because that is reinforcing the perception that readers have of Shallan the Mary Sue who can't do anything wrong and is loved by everyone.  Seriously, everyone who disliked or underestimated Shallan at the beginning liked or respected her by the end, from Vathah and Sebarial to Mraize and Iyatil and Kaladin.  I know it's her magic power, but it's overpowered in a similar way as Kaladin's invincibility.

 

On 13/08/2016 at 11:34 PM, maxal said:

I actually cringed when I read Burrich and Molly... I thought he was a bit old for her and I was surprised she'd settle with him, but then again, I read this story several years ago. I wanted her to choose Fitz, but Fitz was irresponsible and not capable of raising a family. She needed someone stable, strong, capable. Over time, they ended up making sense, but my initial reaction was slightly disbelieving. 

I was okay with Burrich and Molly because even though he was old, it was established from the start that he was capable of taking care of children.  He might not have been nice, but he was responsible and didn't shirk his responsibility and that is better than a blood parent is always off doing their own things instead of raising their children.  Molly ended up being happy with Burrich over time, which I do not think she would have had if she had settled down with Fitz.  The real cringe for me was Malta and Reyn Khuprus.  She was 15 and he was around 20.  In-universe Rain Wilders marry early because they have short life expectancies, but Malta wasn't a Rain Wilder, she was a Bingtown girl and a bratty child that everyone knew was a brat (everyone except Kyle) when he first started courting her.

I don't understand "schoolyard rivals fall in love" romances either.  I can suspend my disbelief if it happens very gradually over time, because people change and personalities that clash in the beginning won't be so opposed after character development and maturation kicks in, like what happened for Anne and Gilbert.  But when it happens too quickly?  I roll my eyes.  If Harry Potter had been Harriet Potter, she wouldn't have been attracted to Draco Malfoy because they formed an instant rivalry.  But in many other stories with similar characters, it ends up happening.  I think it's because when you have a main character male and a main character female, the audience pretty much expects for them to get together.  If the main characters are the same gender, people don't come in with the same expectations.  It's refreshing when an author can write a satisfying ending that doesn't involve pairing up an alpha couple and a beta couple (an example being Siri and Susebron with Vasher and Vivenna).

When I was a kid, I enjoyed Cornelia Funke's novel "Dragon Rider".  It is one of those cliche filled self-insert fantasies with your average plucky orphan who tames a dragon and saves the day.  Completely unappealing to adults, but it has most things that kids love.  Most of the animal-themed books I read as a kid were about farm animals or furry animals in the woods, and considered "classics" with that old-prose.  It might not be suitable for a child to read on their own until age 8 or so, unless you are reading them out loud so you can explain the big words and scary concepts.  Because many of those classic "boy and his dog" stories end up with the dog inevitably dying.

 

On 13/08/2016 at 11:34 PM, maxal said:

In the case of the forced marriage idea, I was working under the assumption the necessity of Adolin marrying trumps all other considerations. It may also be Dalinar will not be patient with his forever and after the fiasco of Sadeas's death, he'll be less inclined to have his son marry "for love". He find the pressure to use his heir as a bargaining chip to secure must needed alliance hard to resist. This being said, the other girl would likely be one of those Adolin previously dated, so it'd be awkward, but with the right incentive, I think the Kholins could convinced at least one young woman to marry him. Of course this depends on how he is viewed after murdering Sadeas, nothing is ever certain. This certainly ranks among the unlikely story arc, but I have tried to run it in my head see how it'd go. The answer is: terrible. It traps Adolin into a situation he has no agency to improve and instead of having him grow into being able to develop a true lasting relationship, you basically have him despair into a fake one. All in all, a bad arc, a bad bad bad arc.

Any girl powerful enough to bring something valuable to a marriage alliance would have enough power to resist being forced into something she didn't want.  They all wanted Adolin to marry another highprince's daughter, but he alienated them all, so realistically the only type of girl that could be forced or pressured into an arrangement would be the daughter of a Kholin army officer, like Janala was.  I think Dalinar and Adolin are too honourable to do that to a subordinate officer.  In the end, it would make a terrible dead-end plot arc.  What narrative purpose could it serve?  How could it move the story along, or develop the characters in a significant way?  It would only make Adolin bitter and resentful.  I don't see it happening, because it something with needless soap opera overdramatics that slows the overall narrative and doesn't have the ability to redeem itself with a satisfying conclusion.  It would be like Kaladin's prison scene, but worse, since there's no evidence divorce exists, and Adolin has proven himself to be a loyal guy, even when it shoots him in the foot.  

You dislike overpowered protagonists, but my personal pet peeve is protagonists doing stupid things because the plot needs it.  Not everyone is stupid on the level of horror movies where drunk highschoolers decide to explore the local abandoned cemetary for a dare, but being deliberately obtuse counts as stupid in my book, and makes me want to throw things at the wall.  You hate that Kaladin saves everyone (or almost everyone; one minor character has to die so he can keep feeling guilty and moody) at the end of the day, and he is the fix-all for resolving major conflicts in the Sanderson Avalanche.  My dislike of Kaladin is how he can be so...nearsighted and obtuse.  He had all that evidence that Moash was up to no good, since Moash was on guard duty every time something bad happened, Moash tried to hook him up with a conspiracy...and he gave Moash yet another chance.  With his whole lighteyes prejudice thing, Kaladin never tried to understand the source of their power.

Quote

“A what of might and renown?” Kaladin asked.
Both looked at him, as if surprised to hear him speak. Keep forgetting I’m here, do you? Kaladin thought. You prefer to ignore darkeyes.
Chapter 55, "The Rules of the Game", Words of Radiance.

 

Quote

“It shouldn’t matter.”
“Maybe it shouldn’t, but it does. You want to change that? Well, you’re not going to do it by screaming like a lunatic and challenging men like Amaram to duels. You’ll do it by distinguishing yourself in the position I gave you. Be the kind of man that others admire, whether they be lighteyed or dark. Convince Elhokar that a darkeyes can lead. That will change the world.”
Chapter 62, "The One Who Killed Promises", Words of Radiance

 

Quote

“Your father says I shouldn’t have tried to duel him.”
“Yeah,” Adolin said, reaching the door at the end of the hallway. “Dueling is formalized in a way I suspect you just don’t get. A darkeyes can’t challenge a man like Amaram, and you certainly shouldn’t have done it like you did. It embarrassed the king, like spitting on a gift he’d given you.”
Chapter 66, "Stormblessings", Words of Radiance

This is why I dislike Kaladin.  If he wanted to get back his old life which was stolen from him, or wanted to punish lighteyes for his mistreatment with some elaborate planned revenge, he could have gotten it all if he stayed quiet and observant and learned information which he could apply later on.  His stubborn and antagonistic behaviour did nothing to help his goals, whether they happened to be good or bad.

I have recently discovered a love for rational fantasy, which is a niche genre where main characters' actions are a result of informed decision making.  It pretty much means they do reasonable things for a good reason, and their reasoning is realistic.  Or as realistic as you get in a fantasy universe.  What you don't get is people doing stupid things like visiting the haunted cemetery on a dare, or Kaladin suddenly challenging Amaram to a duel, or Harry Potter forgetting that Sirius Black had given him a magic mirror until the end of the book.  In other words, the Idiot Ball doesn't exist.  I find that more satisfying than a so-human-it-hurts character from a Robin Hobb book, who does stupid things on a regular basis and gets plot-contrived bad luck dumped on them by the bucketful.

Whew, this was a rant.  But it's satisfying for me to read other books with sane characters who make reasonable decisions that follow a train of logic I can personally follow when I am annoyed at annoying characters in other series.  It might just be that Kaladin has the personality of a leader who does things, and I am more careful and organised, and that rubs me the wrong way.  Whatever it is, it's always good to take a break and enjoy Kaladin chapters in short doses.  And I personally don't dislike a protagonist saving the day over and over, as long as their powers, abilities and presence have been established earlier and it makes sense within the story.  If a character happened to save the day because he was coincidentally at the right place at the right time, over and over, that would be so contrived as to be questionable.  

 

On 13/08/2016 at 11:34 PM, maxal said:

Yes, Steris is a fun character and while she has no POV, it doesn't deter from her growth. She works with her disability instead of against it.

Renarin perhaps has hidden depth, but he is never seen playing them or using them. All we are told is he has an interest in fabrials. Alright. Fine. What does it mean for the main narrative? Nothing. All in all, he does not seem to do nothing but complain over his disease and that is not interesting unless you really are into his character and you love ah, I have to say it, the "trauma stick". Arguably Renarin is not using he kind of "trauma stick" I find interesting to read. He has yet to find his agency which I hope happens soon,

Huh.  What seems to be the problem is when a character is defined by one particular trait, such as a disability or Anne Shirley's red hair.  Everyone in Avonlea thought the new red-headed Nova Scotian girl was temperamental and over-emotional because of her red hair, and they only started to like her and accept her as part of the community after she proved she was more than that.  That is what characters like Steris and Renarin have to show - characterisation beyond that one little label.  Steris was the weird uptight sister at first, but she showed everyone she was capable of pulling her weight and keeping up with the magically powered characters.

Renarin hasn't done anything onscreen.  Admittedly, there are small things he has done like join Bridge Four or jump off a roof in Shardplate, but they still haven't shattered the in-universe and readership perception of being an invalid with an enabling family.  So until he can get a gradual buildup to a a grand event where he can save the day, Kaladin-style, to most people, he will be considered the disabled little brother.  

The problem stems from basically no screen-time, and no PoV.  He is not seen as involved in the decision-making process, and involved in determining the flow and direction of the overarching narrative as Dalinar and Kaladin are.  Because he is barely seen at all.  And that is why his characterisation suffers and he is like a cardboard cutout onto which readers that like and relate to him project their personal experiences and struggles with neuro-atypicality.  To everyone else, he's "that weird guy" or "the autistic brother" or "wait, who?".

I think I'm a bit biased.
I've been re-reading an old favourite of mine, "The Secret Garden".  There's one spoiled invalid kid who throws tantrums and only gets better after he is told to shut up and get out of bed.  It's the kind of old-fashioned no-nonsense tough love you'd approve of.  Of course, stories like this don't work in today's world, because people stopped believing that fresh air, exercise and spankings could cure anything in obnoxious children.

 

 

 

---

Art time

Stormlight gifs

 

Renarin test

Spoiler

If the eyes are the window to the soul, glasses are like curtains.  This is a rule of fiction, which is why a boring and plain girl in a highschool movie suddenly becomes beautiful when she gets her makeover and the glasses come off.  Seriously, glasses are really annoying.  They add another layer of complexity to a character design and detract from showing emotion.  Unless they are giant coke bottle glasses that don't cover up the eyes, like Milo's from Disney's Atlantis movie.

Renarin is kinda boring...I guess.  I couldn't think of any cool facial expressions for him to make.

 

Shallan test

Spoiler

Shallan is one of the easiest designs to animate because she is made up of round edges and it's harder to tell when they're crooked from frame to frame as straight lines are.  The rounded lines give her character design the appearance of youth and softness, which is shared by Renarin's design.  This is done on purpose because they are the two kid characters of the series.  

If Shalladin became canon, they would be an odd looking couple.  Shallan is super cute, and Kaladin is definitely not.

 

 

Vintage travel posters - SA Edition
A while ago, I once said I'd make an SA-themed vintage travel poster, so eventually I got around to them, and here they are.  If you don't know what they are, they are advertising material from the old days back when people didn't have computers and got their information from print media.  No flashing banner ads or pop ups, but brightly coloured stylised posters that sell an ideal to magazine readers.  Google "vintage travel posters" if you want to see more - they have a certain aesthetic that a lot of print ads had back then.  

The posters I made are homage mash-ups with inspiration from 1920's - 1960's era posters originally made by tourism boards and airline companies.

Visit Alethkar

Spoiler

The Outer Market, inspired by French Riviera posters.  Bright, colourful, stylised, and romantic is the aesthetic I tried to copy.  Here's a real poster from the 1930's with a similar look.

Inspiration

Spoiler

 

 

Discover Urithiru

Spoiler

Urithiru in the mountains.  The official description of Urithiru had 100 layers, but nobody's got time for that.  There are Oathgates in the front and back.  These types of posters tend to have a common design with a defined foreground, focus point/midground, and background and that is something I tried to retain when I sketched up this design.  This one was purposefully very "Art Deco", with lots of straight lines and a simplified central shape like old posters for big cities like New York or Chicago.  The muted colours come from older posters from an earlier period.

Inspiration

Spoiler

 

 

Not a travel poster, but a fashion plate illustration.

Alethi Lighteyed Style

Spoiler

 

Detail

Spoiler

I showed this to a friend who asked if it was a geisha and a Chinese pirate.  

I guess if ithis design appears vaguely Asian-ish to someone who is not Cosmere aware, then it's not too shabby.  Truthfully, the clothing I've been drawing on various characters is a mish-mash of IRL Earth cultures from all different historical periods and continents, with some fantasy elements thrown in for coolness value.  But I do try to follow the book description of sleek silk dresses for the women, and high collars and buttons up the sides on men's coats.  So far, the more traditional Vorin clothing has been more Asian-ish, with mandarin collars as the aforementioned high collars.  The modern military style that Dalinar prefers is more Western/European-inspired.  The two aesthetics mix and mash and sometimes clash as a quick way to tell who is frumpy, who is stylish, and who ignores fashion for reason of practicality or unit cohesion.

 

I might get one of these printed as a poster.  They look cool enough that even someone who hasn't read SA wouldn't think it's too weird.  If anyone else is wants to do this, I can send you the full-res versions.  They're around 2500x4500px and too big to post here.

 

Oh, and for the curious, my old art teacher wasn't a nice guy or an inspiration to children everywhere.  He was like a meaner, shoutier version of Mr Miyagi the karate teacher, and tried to force out by the power of attrition the bad habits of any student he thought showed promise.  He singled me out for being a "hairy liner", making those fuzzy looking sketchy lines instead of a single, continuous and confident stroke.  Tough old drill sergeants from military movies have the "drop and give me 20", my art teacher had the "you suck, draw 20 lines or however long it takes to get a straight freehand line with no fuzzy edges".   Apparently the road to self-improvement is built on an acute awareness of personal suckiness.  Well, journey before destination, as they say.

[Rasarr]

@sheep, those art deco posters are freakin' amazing! 

Not much I've got to add here, I'm just going to gush here a bit. I love art deco, so these are awesome. Also, may I have the big version of the Urithiru one? I'm not sure where I'd hang it right now, but I'm certainly going to use it for any future room redecoration. 

Regarding Hoid, he might have grabbed some sort of ability that would let him change the centre of his mass; or have the coin start perceiving the hand and the rest of the body as two separate entities. Considering we have shapeshifter races in the Cosmere, there are probably some shapeshifter-esque magics as well.... and now imagine what Hoid could do if Kandra-like shapeshifting ability fell into his lap. 

Oh, and regarding what you've noted about Urithiru's endless floors, here's a fun, if not very important fact: going by online data I've found, Urithiru would be about 421 metres tall. Has it been built on Earth, it would be 18th tallest freestanding man-made structure and 10th tallest building in the world. 

Edited August 20, 2016 by Rasarr

[Darkness Ascendant]

@sheep, I am quite advanced with pencils. I should improve my coloring tho XD.

I mainly just need a Wacom tablet

My notebook pile is alot bigger XD

Edited August 21, 2016 by Darkness Ascendant

[maxal]

How can any teacher think drawing charcoal fruit bowls is more inspiring than dragons??? 

As for Alethi and swimming... I think they just don't swim. Clues indicate Adolin does not know how to swim. At all. Like drop him in a lake and he drowns.

10 hours ago, sheep said:

In a modern AU where Facebook exists, Adolin wouldn't be a Shardbearer or participate in duels.  So there's a chance he and Jakamav would still be friends.  Being illiterate would be pretty much impossible in a modern world, so AU Adolin would be monolingual, dislike mathematics, and is the type of person who watches the movie and skims the Cliffnotes edition rather than read the school-assigned book.

Dislike mathematics? Actually, I think Adolin would have probably been good at mathematics. Based on what we do know about his tutoring is while he struggled to retained his history lessons, he effortlessly uses percentages within a conversation (OK I admit it was pretty simply, but apparently most people struggle with those). Considering the fact I once read 80% of the adult population within an educated western country couldn't apply the rule of three in small scope real-life problems such as "How many gallons of paint do I need to buy to pain my living room knowing one gallon can cover XX square-feet?", I'd say Adolin, for someone forced to learn everything without any visual supports, does pretty well 

Therefore, I'd say our Adolin would probably have a hard time with subjects requiring the student to memorize large amount of data such as history and biology, but would probably be good at those requiring more analytical skills, such as mathematics. He has shown to have good military tactician skills and he is a good solution maker, when he isn't all riled up in some negative emotions. It seems to me those skills would more readily apply to subjects such as mathematics than any other (I am dimly trying to remember what else we learned in school ).

Since he's never tried it, I have no idea if he'd have the mind for literacy. He did listen to poetry back in WoK and quoted some of it to Dalinar which was met by laughter and a bout of red faced shamed Adolin thinking he shouldn't have tried it. Hence Adolin never tries at being smart for fear of ridicule which makes it harder to assess which subject he'd be good at. The easy answer would be saying he'd suck at everything school related, but Adolin is actually too smart and too keen on succeeding to actually allow himself to be a bad student, in a world where school is deemed as important as soldering is within his own.

There are two ways I could see modern day Adolin evolve within today's schooling: either he is a very hard worker who does well, has good grades, but works very hard to get there (unlike Kaladin who barely seems to make an effort at all and yet aces everything) or he pretends he is dumb, he has about the average in all subjects, never trying to get better grades for fear of being looked at negatively, but hands over surprisingly good assignments when the subject interests him so much he forgets he is supposed to be dumb. As he moves forward and the exams become harder, he still remains within the average while many others simply flunk... A good teacher would frown and note Mr Popularity is actually a much smarter kid then he lets on, a shame he isn't trying harder.

10 hours ago, sheep said:

Focus groups or test audiences are a staple of market research for designing products, and a  guaranteed bestselling novel from a reliable and proven author is, essentially, a product being sold at the end of the day.  So having beta readers is a useful thing, but because the format of a novel means that it has one main creator, it's completely up to Brandon how much he listens to the readers.  His book will sell thousands of copies no matter what he does.  TVTropes calls it "Protection from Editors".

Brandon giving updates and being communicative with the fan community is fantastic and sets him apart from other authors who aren't so interactive, but it's not something I expect from an author, or from anyone involved with creating serial media that I enjoy.  I mean, it's great that he does it, but I don't expect him to, nor do I think anyone should feel he is obligated to be as communicative as he is.  It's like if Holt Renfrew had a members' club, and  if you spent $500 in a year and scanned your members' card with every purchase, you got a gift bag with scented lotions and shampoo and stuff.  Holt Renfrew doesn't have to give you a gift bag, and it would be silly to be angry if the next year you bought $500 worth of stuff and they cancelled their offer and you didn't get the gift bag.  Because you got $500 worth of goods for your $500, and that is all they're obligated to give you.  So it kind of bothers me if people think Brandon is expected to acknowledge his readers.  It is nice that he does, but it shouldn't be taken for granted, and I think it's a healthier attitude if everyone is happy that Brandon answered a question at all rather than being disappointed that he has left questions unanswered.  I have been to non-Brandon signings before and no other author answers questions like he does.  Most of them just sign your book and hustle you along to make room for the next person.

And it could be that Brandon doesn't answer everyone's questions because he would rather not answer than give a short answer that has the potential to lead readers to assume things so they end up reading the next book with biased perceptions, and ruining the experience.  Kinda like watching the movie first before reading the book - your mental imagery is all skewed and if you know who dies, the suspense is gone.  Or it could be that anything he might hint about is a spoiler.  In that case, it's better to go silent because saying "RAFO" over and over is frustrating to him and to the people who ask the questions.  

I think it's just you being so obsessive about Adolin.  The solution, but you probably already know it, is to read other things.  

You dislike Tyn and Jakamav because they were mean, directly or indirectly, to Adolin... That's an interesting way to react to characters.  I don't think they actually hated Adolin, or even knew him that well, really.  They were more self-centred and self-serving than deliberately antagonistic towards Adolin, and that is why I don't hate them like you do.  In fact, I wish Tyn had stayed alive for a little longer, because Shallan could have learned more neat tricks and she was in no danger of being turned evil.  But she had to die so Shallan could learn independence, for the same reason why Jasnah and Lin Davar had to go.

Also - regarding unpopular opinions.  Downvotes and upvotes are just imaginary internet points.  The official justification for giving downvotes is for people who are needlessly rude or offensive (-insert character- is -insert swear word-, personal attacks and insults, etc), or are off-topic (derailing, spam).  Downvotes aren't meant to be used when your opinion is different from someone else and you're too lazy to counterthem with a post.  But people still do it anyway because lol rules r 4 chumps.  And that's why you should ignore them if it bothers you so much.  It's not like these silly points do anything.  

You can't expect authors to be as communicative as Brandon, but when you stumble on one, he does end up creating the expectations he will be. This is why when the author is seen to communicate several piece of information other readers yearned to have while not communicating others, there are some which get disappointed. In a perfect world, negative feelings of disappointment would never exist, but since this is the real-world then, yes having a very communicative author does have its perks and its downsides. In your Holt Renfrew example, yes I would be disappointed if they suddenly stopped giving out the gift bags after a 500$ expense within their stores just as I was disappointed when my gym stopped giving me a free training bag upon each renewal of my subscription. Mind, I am still a member at the same gym, but I have said from times to times they had gotten cheap. Since then, I have stopped complaining because they actually allow me to keep on training at my extremely low monthly rate due to myself being a long-term client, but still. Hence the problems is as soon as you create expectations, you create disappointment: one does not go without the other. Nobody has to create the expectations to begin with, but they are inevitable. 

Brandon has thus created expectations: how he decides to deal with them within his readerships and his next book is entirely up to him and we both agree, no matter what he does, he is going to sell millions of books. I however like to think authors are not simply happy to make more money, they also yearn to create satisfaction within their readers. Based on what I have learned about Brandon, I doubt he'd be glad if he wrote a book which would be to SA what CoT was to WoT: an unpopular book long-time fans hated.

Thus I love to think authors are sensitive to their readerships, up to a certain level. They don't have to be, but it is good to know some of them are. Thus it is when Brandon takes time to indulge those readers who love given characters while not taking the time to do the same with the readers loving another one is peculiar. As far as I can tell, Adolin pretty much is the only typically well loved character Brandon doesn't talk much about nor give positive incentive. Of course you could argue I am too obsessed which is why It bothers me, but others have noticed as well.

I also do read other books, but all failed to be as engaging as SA.

Actually I didn't dislike Tyn because she was mean to Adolin: I disliked Tyn because I hated what she tried to turn Shallan into. I dislike lying, secretive characters which is exactly what Tyn wanted Shallan to become. She wanted her to lie and it isn't a character trait I find endearing. Yes, the fact it would come at Adolin's expense did play a factor, but the whole con-woman never appealed to me to begin with. As for Jakamav, I didn't know there was another reason to dislike him than him being a friend betrayer.

Ask anyone who's been here long enough and they will tell you: I hate downvotes. I made a crusade against them and while I do not disagree with downvotes made to warn purposefully rude fellows, it is my experience most of them are being cast for other reasons. I makes it hard to have certain discussions as owning the unpopular opinion is almost sure to get you one of those dreaded downvotes. It gets very hard to defend a position when faced with such hostilities: it makes it harder. Fortunately, the new forum layout made the downvotes less obvious and less aggressive which means I do not focus on them as much as I used to.

Everyone is different: not all of us are capable of seeing those negative points without feeling personally targeted. Some of us have spend a lifetime trying to fit in, so these may just be the reminder they don't quite... fit in. Still, I do try to ignore them as much as possible. The new format makes it easier.

12 hours ago, sheep said:

Oh Dalinar.  He is a hammer and all problems are nails, and therefore can be solved the same way.  The more I think about it, the more I believe that Adolin's situation isn't a problem caused by Dalinar being a failure of a father, who was too much focused on the greater good and producing a perfect son, but rather a side effect of the warrior culture in Alethkar.

If Dalinar was a monster when he was the Blackthorn, it was lauded and glorified by Alethi culture, and he was considered the greatest warrior in the newly unified country.  He's a product of his society, and his bad habits were not criticised; Dalinar only decided killing indiscriminately was wrong on his own, because no one ever told him not to.

Alethi society seems pretty weird and alien when you think about it from a wider perspective, because doting parents are rare (people like Sadeas and Kaladin think Renarin is spoiled and soft because of how gently he is treated), and children are expected to be more obedient and self-sufficient than anyone expects of modern-day Earth children.  You have Adolin starting training at 6 years old, Kaladin beginning his surgeon apprenticeship at 10, lighteye children in the city being officers' aides, Tient being recruited at 13, Kaladin being in a combat unit at 15, and Laral and Navani married at 16.  So what Alethi in general expect of children is something that would never fly by our modern day viewpoints, with laws against child labour and making important decisions up until age 21.  That's possibly why Dalinar doesn't seem anything unusual in the way he and Adolin have a father-son relationship, because it is within the normal range of behaviour for fathers and sons, with some veering into the strict end because Adolin is his heir as well as his subordinate officer.

A character reader would of course be focused on Dalinar as the source of the conflict in a family drama, but I think it's a bit more than that.  People are products of their environment, and the society that promotes manipulation and backstabbiness for power is the same one that encourages the search for excellence as a test of worthiness.  This last one is probably ingrained in Adolin since he had ardents as tutors as a kid, and from what we've seen, lighteyed children are taught from a young age Vorin priests owned by their parents.  It's great worldbuilding, but a messed up world.

Does any Alethi commander really know how to lose?  In their mind, the loser is the person who gives up first, which is why years after being forcibly pacified b Gavilar, they're still fighting pointless border skirmishes.  And that is why they continued to wage a war of attrition against the Parshendi.  If Adolin learns how to command and regroup a battalion after a complete rout rather than a strategic defeat, he might be mentally broken because of it, but in the end he'll be more experienced that any other commander.  I don't think even Kaladin knows how to lose for reals.  The last time he felt real defeat was the Honor Chasm in WoK and he only recovered from it because he had Syl.

And Adolin didn't have to be the pillar of the family to everyone until Dalinar started getting visions.  Does anyone know when the first visions happened?  Dalinar didn't start reading The Way of Kings until Gavilar died, and the visions came later, so Adolin would have had a more normal childhood (or whatever the Alethi version of "normal" is) until then.  He would have been open to accepting Navani as a parental figure when he wasn't expected to be the strong one back then.  

Navani's loyalty is also a character trait of hers - even though Jasnah distanced herself and she knows that Elhokar is a weak king, she still supports them.  She didn't love Gavilar but she was faithful for their 25+ years of marriage.  She wouldn't throw Adolin over for Shallan, who may be a scholar and a Radiant, but has only been known to the Kholins for a few weeks.  If Navani decided Shallan was more worthy of emotional support and counsel than Adolin, that would be kind of annoying because that is reinforcing the perception that readers have of Shallan the Mary Sue who can't do anything wrong and is loved by everyone.  Seriously, everyone who disliked or underestimated Shallan at the beginning liked or respected her by the end, from Vathah and Sebarial to Mraize and Iyatil and Kaladin.  I know it's her magic power, but it's overpowered in a similar way as Kaladin's invincibility.

For the record, I do not think Dalinar failed as a father which is what makes him interesting. He didn't fail, because he did the best he could considering the data he had. Whatever happens to Adolin technically isn't a failure on Dalinar's part, but he may feel it is. As a father, Dalinar could have been more lenient, less hard, more comprehensive towards Adolin, but had he been, he wouldn't have been the Dalinar we currently know.

Younger Dalinar was everything the Alethi society glorified, but better, stronger and more impressive. Nobody but himself ever thought his former ways were wrong which put young Adolin into a difficult position: on one side society tells him he has to be one way and on the other side his father tells him he has to be different. In the end, Adolin ends up playing a game of cameo, trying to whatever others want him to be, but never truly being himself. Therefore, it isn't so much Dalinar isn't coddling Adolin, it is more he gave him such a rigid frame to evolve in, he never learned who he truly was.

It may also be, as you say, their world demands such behavior to happen. Adolin has been put into training at the age of 6 and has likely been asked to be the perfect prince since early childhood while Renarin, being sick, was allowed leniency. Unfortunately, within their world, the leniency Renarin received is perceived as negative and as a testimony of his uselessness. Had he been worth it, his father would have been hard on him too... It is a never ending wheel and no matter which world you live in, individuals have to come in terms with who they want to be and who to they are. This being said, world-building is indeed messy and it allowed for the creations of characters so interesting their path is completely unpredictable. If characters motivations were simpler, then it'd be a boring ride. When I read a character, I want his built-up to be more than "I am XYZ because I am meant to be XYZ as I am awesome due to myself being XYZ and also I am a special snowflake". The Adolin/Dalinar relationship is both complex and fascinating. While it may not pan out as I have thought it would, it still remains... essentially complex and each characters motivations are more advanced than the typical heroes journey we usually get within epic fantasy.

Does Alethi commander know how to lose? I hope they do.. In each battle, there is a winner and a loser: Adolin has never really been on the losing side. If he managed to get to the gemstone last, it still, technically, isn't a lost, it isn't a retreat. If he ever went through one, it was never mentioned: it is fair to say the Tower was the worst battle Adolin ever partake in and it left him shaken. It may be, as you say, no other commander have this experience, but we can be sure fighting in the Desolation will imply their fair share of rout and strategic defeats. While I am convinced someone like Dalinar wouldn't be personally impacted by such an event, I can't say I am convinced the same would happen to Adolin... Maybe I am wrong, but Adolin is young and his battle experience isn't as extensive as his father: the Shattered Plains hardly even counts as a war. For the record, Kaladin doesn't know how to lose either, but since he isn't a battle field commander, he may never have to live through it.

As for Adolin being the pillar of his family, I believe he thinks he is this pillar, but if you were to ask Dalinar, he'd disagree. There are several instances where Adolin explains how he had to be strong for them, how he tried to always appear confident to others, how he tries not to worry them because they rely on him so much... This is... Adolin's perspective and within his perspective, he truly thinks his family not only rely on him, but requires him to be the strong one. Therefore, whether Adolin truly is the pillar of his family or not doesn't matter, what matters is he thinks he is.

Navani, Navani is Adolin's soft spot, a momentary lapse where he allows himself to be... something else than forever strong, reliable and confident Adolin. He allows the other Adolin, the little boy, to come out. It is rather sweet, so it may be, as you suggest, Navani will play a role within Adolin's future. With her, he doesn't try to be a pillar, he can be... a child even though he hasn't been one in many years, he still seems to have the need to be one, sometimes. How does Navani feels towards Adolin though is yet to be seen.

Would Navani choose Shallan over Adolin? I do not know. Why would she? Well, I have to say because Shallan has this aptitude to have people flock around her, to have people think they have to care for her. She looks vulnerable, like a frail bird in need of protection: it may not be her fault, she was raised as one, so I do think the habit is hard to loose. I thus do not think people genuinely love her, but she does have the young, pretty, naive girl thing going on which makes most grown-ups to shelter her. She makes me think of the teacher's pet more than a Mary-Sue: this annoyingly pretty, cute, small and innocent looking girl everyone just naturally cuddle. Therefore, is Adolin's quality as Navani's nephew strong enough to repel Shallan's magnet? Only time will tell...

13 hours ago, sheep said:

I was okay with Burrich and Molly because even though he was old, it was established from the start that he was capable of taking care of children.  He might not have been nice, but he was responsible and didn't shirk his responsibility and that is better than a blood parent is always off doing their own things instead of raising their children.  Molly ended up being happy with Burrich over time, which I do not think she would have had if she had settled down with Fitz.  The real cringe for me was Malta and Reyn Khuprus.  She was 15 and he was around 20.  In-universe Rain Wilders marry early because they have short life expectancies, but Malta wasn't a Rain Wilder, she was a Bingtown girl and a bratty child that everyone knew was a brat (everyone except Kyle) when he first started courting her.

I don't understand "schoolyard rivals fall in love" romances either.  I can suspend my disbelief if it happens very gradually over time, because people change and personalities that clash in the beginning won't be so opposed after character development and maturation kicks in, like what happened for Anne and Gilbert.  But when it happens too quickly?  I roll my eyes.  If Harry Potter had been Harriet Potter, she wouldn't have been attracted to Draco Malfoy because they formed an instant rivalry.  But in many other stories with similar characters, it ends up happening.  I think it's because when you have a main character male and a main character female, the audience pretty much expects for them to get together.  If the main characters are the same gender, people don't come in with the same expectations.  It's refreshing when an author can write a satisfying ending that doesn't involve pairing up an alpha couple and a beta couple (an example being Siri and Susebron with Vasher and Vivenna).

When I was a kid, I enjoyed Cornelia Funke's novel "Dragon Rider".  It is one of those cliche filled self-insert fantasies with your average plucky orphan who tames a dragon and saves the day.  Completely unappealing to adults, but it has most things that kids love.  Most of the animal-themed books I read as a kid were about farm animals or furry animals in the woods, and considered "classics" with that old-prose.  It might not be suitable for a child to read on their own until age 8 or so, unless you are reading them out loud so you can explain the big words and scary concepts.  Because many of those classic "boy and his dog" stories end up with the dog inevitably dying.

I agree Molly would have never been happy had she chose to settle down with Fitz early on. Fitz would have never been happy either had he settled down with Molly. He just wasn't in the right mood frame to be a husband, but then this is typical Hobb. To have her characters being shuffle away from their intended path early on is her trademark... Fitz, Althea, Wintrow, Sedric, Neware and I could go on, the list is long. Malta and Reyn, strangely never bothered me. Reyn was clearly looking for something he hadn't find within the Rain Wild while Malta was a brat who thought playing at being a seductress merely was a game, until she gets caught into it. She had a lot of growth and having her learn to appreciate Reyn, despite his scars was really endearing: the age difference never bothered me, as strange as it may sound considering how bothered I usually am with it. It probably is because there weren't any other characters available for shipping while in SA, I keep wondering why Adolin has to be so much older than everyone else.

On average, I would say JK Rowling's romances weren't the most plausible ones ever. I never got the vibe going on in between Hermione and Ron: they never sounded like a plausible union. It merely seemed as if they started dating out of a lack of options: what Ron had to bring to the union has never truly been explained just as what he found so interesting in Hermione. It was weak beyond weak. Ginny and Harry weren't much better. If I can get how Ginny, as a young girl, would hero-worship Harry to the point of fancying him, I always felt how Harry ended up having feelings for her was never fully explained. Well, I guess it was there, it is just, I always felt Ginny never truly walked out of her school girl crush.

I agree readers always expect the main protagonists to end up as a union which is probably why so many people are yearning for Kaladin/Shallan to happen. Had Kaladin not been the main protagonist, would others have put as much credence in his yelling match with Shallan? Had it been the reverse, had Shallan been engaged to Kaladin while entering a rivalry mood with Adolin, would people say the same? Maybe they would, but I feel a lot of people want Kaladin to be with Shallan merely because, as the main protagonist, everything has to happen to him.

Never heard of Cornelia Funke, but as a kid, my references are probably much different... There often is a... delay in between the released original version of any given book and the French translation. If popular stories such as Harry Potter get translated in 6 months, lower key stuff may take years before making it to the shelves in French. It isn't so bad now as it used to be, but back in the 80s/90s, any kid's books would take years before making it to the shelves, so huh stuff I read probably wasn't up to date or locally written. For instance, I never saw the French version of Redwall. 

On 8/20/2016 at 8:24 AM, sheep said:

Any girl powerful enough to bring something valuable to a marriage alliance would have enough power to resist being forced into something she didn't want.  They all wanted Adolin to marry another highprince's daughter, but he alienated them all, so realistically the only type of girl that could be forced or pressured into an arrangement would be the daughter of a Kholin army officer, like Janala was.  I think Dalinar and Adolin are too honourable to do that to a subordinate officer.  In the end, it would make a terrible dead-end plot arc.  What narrative purpose could it serve?  How could it move the story along, or develop the characters in a significant way?  It would only make Adolin bitter and resentful.  I don't see it happening, because it something with needless soap opera overdramatics that slows the overall narrative and doesn't have the ability to redeem itself with a satisfying conclusion.  It would be like Kaladin's prison scene, but worse, since there's no evidence divorce exists, and Adolin has proven himself to be a loyal guy, even when it shoots him in the foot.  

You dislike overpowered protagonists, but my personal pet peeve is protagonists doing stupid things because the plot needs it.  Not everyone is stupid on the level of horror movies where drunk highschoolers decide to explore the local abandoned cemetary for a dare, but being deliberately obtuse counts as stupid in my book, and makes me want to throw things at the wall.  You hate that Kaladin saves everyone (or almost everyone; one minor character has to die so he can keep feeling guilty and moody) at the end of the day, and he is the fix-all for resolving major conflicts in the Sanderson Avalanche.  My dislike of Kaladin is how he can be so...nearsighted and obtuse.  He had all that evidence that Moash was up to no good, since Moash was on guard duty every time something bad happened, Moash tried to hook him up with a conspiracy...and he gave Moash yet another chance.  With his whole lighteyes prejudice thing, Kaladin never tried to understand the source of their power.

What narrative plot point would it serve? Getting Adolin out of the way for Kaladin? Cement Adolin into the one protagonist who never develops into a hero? Make him go onto a downward spiral without any hope to climb back up until he dies of it and thus, give all the room to Kaladin? Realistically speaking, it serves no purpose for Adolin's character development providing he becomes a fully fleshed out character, but it may serve purpose for other characters. It may merely be a ploy to get Adolin out of the way in order to allow the main narrative to focus on the other characters. Now, I doubt the author would do this, but we never know. Still, I agree it is a terrible story arc, quite boring too.

The Kaladin's prison scenes were the ordeal we had to suffer in order to quickly get him into the right mood frame to murder Elhokar and kill Syl. This arc, I suspect, wasn't supposed to happen until a later book, but when it was condensed into WoR, Kaladin's progression towards depression had to be accelerated. Hopefully, it means less Kaladin in the future books, realistically: it isn't going to happen.

The reason I dislike over-powered protagonists such as Kaladin merely is because I find them uninteresting. As soon as you established your character is several levels up, in terms of raw power and skill, as soon as you give him the true hero's journey, you then make him very predictable. Once the reader becomes perfectly certain nobody can defeat your hero, you essentially give him plot armor which makes him less interesting to read. Still, a hero could probably retain an engaging story arc if he needs to grow to achieve his end climaxes, if he has obstacles to climb and is seen to learn a valuable lesson rendering the read more endearing. Unfortunately, Kaladin doesn't work out great for me because the one thing he needs to overcome also is the one thing he will never overcome: depression. Sure, he has prejudice and narrow-vision, but it isn't an integral part enough of his character's journey to truly make up a satisfying progression. All in all, I often feel Kaladin is this dude who gets awarded the best story arcs and is seen as glorious because the author loves to hurt him just so he could be more tragic. Too much onto the same character: it stopped working after the prison scene. The trauma stick is not used to have Kaladin progress, it is used in order to add artificial drama onto Kaladin's magnificent saves. He didn't need to be bloody and nearly dead to say his oaths again... It was superfluous. If you use the trauma stick, then make sure it has a purpose. Kaladin being half-dead and say "Oh wait Elhokar is Dalinar's Tien, quick Syl come back, now I understand" added an unnecessary traumatic element which can work out well, but when always used on the same character, it becomes redundant. The same goes with Kaladin being beaten down by a few random soldiers when he was a bridgeman. What purpose did it serve other than to make the character appear more miserable? None. So this is essentially what I dislike about Kaladin, how the author always persistently use the trauma stick on him for no other purpose than, he is his main character, therefore he needs to suffer. I love the trauma stick, but it has to carry a purpose. A lot of Kaladin's scenes with respect to this have little purpose.

I also feel over-powered protagonists have little room to grow.. What growth can we hope to read for Kaladin? The usual. He'll learn to be a Radiant, he'll be a world-acclaimed leader and he'll progressively lose his prejudice. The end. What has he really learn? When push comes to shove: not much. He'll just learn to be less single-minded when it comes to who he is protecting and he'll improve his leadership skills. Characters such as Malta are thus more interesting to me because she does learn many valuable lessons: she grows in ways you would have never been able to predict. It also is why I find Adolin much more interesting: because he has this room left to grow, to take an unexpected turn. He could be SA's Malta, if the author's wills it.

 

On 8/20/2016 at 8:24 AM, sheep said:

This is why I dislike Kaladin.  If he wanted to get back his old life which was stolen from him, or wanted to punish lighteyes for his mistreatment with some elaborate planned revenge, he could have gotten it all if he stayed quiet and observant and learned information which he could apply later on.  His stubborn and antagonistic behaviour did nothing to help his goals, whether they happened to be good or bad.

I have recently discovered a love for rational fantasy, which is a niche genre where main characters' actions are a result of informed decision making.  It pretty much means they do reasonable things for a good reason, and their reasoning is realistic.  Or as realistic as you get in a fantasy universe.  What you don't get is people doing stupid things like visiting the haunted cemetery on a dare, or Kaladin suddenly challenging Amaram to a duel, or Harry Potter forgetting that Sirius Black had given him a magic mirror until the end of the book.  In other words, the Idiot Ball doesn't exist.  I find that more satisfying than a so-human-it-hurts character from a Robin Hobb book, who does stupid things on a regular basis and gets plot-contrived bad luck dumped on them by the bucketful.

Whew, this was a rant.  But it's satisfying for me to read other books with sane characters who make reasonable decisions that follow a train of logic I can personally follow when I am annoyed at annoying characters in other series.  It might just be that Kaladin has the personality of a leader who does things, and I am more careful and organised, and that rubs me the wrong way.  Whatever it is, it's always good to take a break and enjoy Kaladin chapters in short doses.  And I personally don't dislike a protagonist saving the day over and over, as long as their powers, abilities and presence have been established earlier and it makes sense within the story.  If a character happened to save the day because he was coincidentally at the right place at the right time, over and over, that would be so contrived as to be questionable.  

 

I love this quote you put up: I often bring it forward myself. I love it because Dalinar is right. If Kaladin's goal is to help change mentalities, then his best shot is to keep his mouth shut, to stop being so antagonist, to concentrate on doing this job he was given and to do it not only right, but better than others. Prove to others the fact you are a darkeye matters not, but by demanding a status you do not have and the world is not willing to give to you, you only sound petty and you merely reinforce others ideas you aren't worth it anyway. The fact many stories prefer to have characters such as Kaladin as opposed to hard-working ones striving to succeed by their actions, rising up slowly, but surely can disheartening. It is amazing to read a character starting up at the bottom of the scale and making his way up, but to have one demand the way up above him should be cleared because he has reasons enough to be there just doesn't work out. Not for me. I am glad Dalinar finally talked Kaladin down and served him a good dose of humility. Too bad he didn't learn the lesson.

I do not require my characters to always be rational: I can understand a dare. If the character is impulsive, then it fits within his personality. What bothered me with Kaladin is the fact Dalinar has not seen fit to correct him before combined to the fact Kaladin doesn't want to agree with the lesson. He is being told he has something to learn but he is too arrogant to actually listen.

I loved the rant. I love rants. I love to rant. My main issue with Kaladin can often be summed up by him having too much page time: with a smaller story arc, the things which annoy me wouldn't take up so much place and I'd appreciate him more. Can't wait to see if the author will dare going towards some unexplored places with the character... ones which do not involve physical torture.

On 8/20/2016 at 8:24 AM, sheep said:

Huh.  What seems to be the problem is when a character is defined by one particular trait, such as a disability or Anne Shirley's red hair.  Everyone in Avonlea thought the new red-headed Nova Scotian girl was temperamental and over-emotional because of her red hair, and they only started to like her and accept her as part of the community after she proved she was more than that.  That is what characters like Steris and Renarin have to show - characterisation beyond that one little label.  Steris was the weird uptight sister at first, but she showed everyone she was capable of pulling her weight and keeping up with the magically powered characters.

Renarin hasn't done anything onscreen.  Admittedly, there are small things he has done like join Bridge Four or jump off a roof in Shardplate, but they still haven't shattered the in-universe and readership perception of being an invalid with an enabling family.  So until he can get a gradual buildup to a a grand event where he can save the day, Kaladin-style, to most people, he will be considered the disabled little brother.  

The problem stems from basically no screen-time, and no PoV.  He is not seen as involved in the decision-making process, and involved in determining the flow and direction of the overarching narrative as Dalinar and Kaladin are.  Because he is barely seen at all.  And that is why his characterisation suffers and he is like a cardboard cutout onto which readers that like and relate to him project their personal experiences and struggles with neuro-atypicality.  To everyone else, he's "that weird guy" or "the autistic brother" or "wait, who?".

I think I'm a bit biased.
I've been re-reading an old favourite of mine, "The Secret Garden".  There's one spoiled invalid kid who throws tantrums and only gets better after he is told to shut up and get out of bed.  It's the kind of old-fashioned no-nonsense tough love you'd approve of.  Of course, stories like this don't work in today's world, because people stopped believing that fresh air, exercise and spankings could cure anything in obnoxious children.

For my part, the difference I see in between Steris and Renarin is Steris doesn't take her disability as an excuse to justify her poor track record when it comes to relationships while Renarin uses his as an excuse for everything. Whenever he has a problem, he blames it on his sickness and while some of that may be understandable, it has been pushed to an extreme I have a hard time finding endearing. He is also seen doing very little which made the readers built way too much stock into his few actions. Jumping of the roof in his Shardplate? Is there really anyone who truly believes this isn't part of the regular training all new Shardbearers go through? Is there really anyone who truly believe Adolin was never asked to do the same? Then why is it so extraordinary when Renarin does it? It isn't. It is basic training. Yes he does it, but gee considering how much he ranted to get this Plate, this is the least I expected out of him. He wanted it so bad, the least I expected is he'd give it all he's got.

Joining Bridge 4 though arguably was one of this most notable action as it demanded courage to face rejection in a painful way. I thought it was pretty neat he built it up enough to actually not only ask, but insist. This is the Renarin I like, the Renarin who doesn't take his sickness as a reason to explain all of his troubles, who refuses to let it stop him. This, this, this, I loved. So more of this.

I am horribly biased. I have admitted it on several occasions and I can't truly say why without sharing a large pan of my personal life. It isn't so much I mind, it is more I do not believe the majority of those who may read it would actually understand. I'd therefore say it isn't so much I believe in old-school non-sense tough love, but I certainly believe having "issues" should not be used as an excuse to justify one individual's bad behaviors. I do not mean by this to say Renarin behaves badly, but him threatening to kill himself if he weren't allowed to be a soldier rubbed by off the wrong way.

 

 

[The Honor Spren]

@sheep I would like that Alethkar one printed as a poster. Could you send it to me? 

[CarolaDavar]

Wow. Okay then. I'll try it out. I am taking an art class this year, and I will probably learn more there. (And, just so you you know my stack of sketch books is about 3 ft tall, and the stack of random sketches on whatever paper is even larger.) Thanks for the tips.

[Argent]

On 8/20/2016 at 7:24 AM, sheep said:

I'm curious - what made you come back to this thread?

I am aware that my art style isn't appealing to everyone (like my old art teacher, haha), and doesn't match everyone's mental images of what fictional things look like, and that's a perfectly valid reason not to have any interest in this thread.  I find it kind of unusual that you gave it another go.

It's not like I had ever given up on it or anything. But I am a theorycrafter at heart, so those are the threads I prioritize when my time is limited. Add a month-long vacation on top of that (during which I didn't touch the forums)... well, by the time I felt like I could go back and catch up on some art, you had drawn a few zillion things. Which I don't want to look at unless I've also read the snippets you have, because I think that's important when evaluating the art. 

So... one day.

[sheep]

On 21/08/2016 at 2:23 AM, Rasarr said:

@sheep, those art deco posters are freakin' amazing! 

Not much I've got to add here, I'm just going to gush here a bit. I love art deco, so these are awesome. Also, may I have the big version of the Urithiru one? I'm not sure where I'd hang it right now, but I'm certainly going to use it for any future room redecoration. 

Regarding Hoid, he might have grabbed some sort of ability that would let him change the centre of his mass; or have the coin start perceiving the hand and the rest of the body as two separate entities. Considering we have shapeshifter races in the Cosmere, there are probably some shapeshifter-esque magics as well.... and now imagine what Hoid could do if Kandra-like shapeshifting ability fell into his lap. 

Oh, and regarding what you've noted about Urithiru's endless floors, here's a fun, if not very important fact: going by online data I've found, Urithiru would be about 421 metres tall. Has it been built on Earth, it would be 18th tallest freestanding man-made structure and 10th tallest building in the world. 

I like Art Deco, and Art Nouveau too, but I would have to switch up my character designs a bit for them to fit the Art Nouveau aesthetic - human proportions and anatomy-wise, it's close to realistic.  And it uses a lot of geometric shapes in the backgrounds and borders inspired by IRL Earth plants and flowers, which wouldn't translate to Roshar, so I would have had to figure out what to substitute.  I was lazy, and didn't want to outline a bajillion rockbuds.  That's why I went Art Deco.  And the fact that someone else has done Art Noveau SA, but no one has done Art Deco.  I like a lot of old art styles; there was an old-fashioned engraving poster set I did a couple of pages ago.

Hoid the ability grabber?  Sharders get triggered when someone says that Reckoners-verse is Cosmere, but if Hoid was secretly Calamity...

I had trouble picturing Urithiru's scale because I had difficulty imagining the building itself.  It's supposed to be like cups stacked on top of each other... are the cups' openings facing down, or facing up?  Which changes the angles of the terraces and the silhouette of the whole building.  I don't think any other fan artist knows, since I've seen it both ways when someone bothers to draw it (which is rare).  All I see is "inspiration boards" using paintings of the Tower of Babel ripped off Google.

 

On 21/08/2016 at 4:05 PM, Darkness Ascendant said:

@sheep, I am quite advanced with pencils. I should improve my coloring tho XD.

I mainly just need a Wacom tablet

My notebook pile is alot bigger XD

Everyone has room to improve, no matter their current skill status.  There is no level cap in art.  THE GRIND IS FOR LIFE.

In my experience, if you take a break from doing one thing because you think you're good, the skills deteriorate when you come back unless you're brushing up on a regular basis.  I used to be pretty good at coloured pencils but didn't use them for 2-3 years and when I picked them up again, I was scratching at the paper and thinking to myself that it was harder than I remembered.  It was a weird but humbling experience.

 

On 23/08/2016 at 1:39 AM, CarolaDavar said:

Wow. Okay then. I'll try it out. I am taking an art class this year, and I will probably learn more there. (And, just so you you know my stack of sketch books is about 3 ft tall, and the stack of random sketches on whatever paper is even larger.) Thanks for the tips.

The tips I posted are usually the same ones an art teacher will give to students on their first few drawing lessons.  Unless it's an art theory/history class, which means you get to discuss art and write essays about it, but you don't get to make things of your own.  

If you keep all your notebooks, 10 years later, you will have an insanely effective source of nostalgia cringe.  It's like looking at old yearbook photos with ugly bowl-cut hair, but worse.

 

On 23/08/2016 at 5:59 AM, Argent said:

It's not like I had ever given up on it or anything. But I am a theorycrafter at heart, so those are the threads I prioritize when my time is limited. Add a month-long vacation on top of that (during which I didn't touch the forums)... well, by the time I felt like I could go back and catch up on some art, you had drawn a few zillion things. Which I don't want to look at unless I've also read the snippets you have, because I think that's important when evaluating the art. 

So... one day.

I've always found it interesting how different people show their interest in the same book series.  We all find different things to enjoy in the Brandon-verse, from analysis and discussion to generating creative content, but somehow we're all here on the Shard.

The text that comes with the picture isn't super serious artist statement stuff.  It doesn't point out secret Satanic messages hidden in a 6x6 square of pixels in the corner.  The art can be viewed perfectly fine without text - I personally think art shouldn't require text for a viewer to get it, unless it's a comic strip or something.  I just type stuff for context, and to show where the designs come from Brandon and where they come from my imagination.

It's kind of like the production notes in the DVD extras of your favourite movie.  You don't need them, and other artists don't bother, but I like them, and that's why I make them.

 

On 22/08/2016 at 6:12 AM, maxal said:

How can any teacher think drawing charcoal fruit bowls is more inspiring than dragons??? 

Drawing fruit bowls and life drawing in general forces students to analyse their environments and break down a scene in front of them into its most basic components.  Sitting there, you end up realising how all those earlier lessons on perspective, shape, colour, form and shadow end up tying together.  Those skills are pretty flexible and can be used for drawing other things.  Whereas when you draw dragons from your imagination, you only really get good at drawing dragons.  

If Adolin was better at school subjects with applied mathematics, like chemistry or physics or statistics, he wouldn't be able to get away with playing the dumb student.  Those types of subjects, at least once you get past the high school level, you either show you get it, or you don't and they politely suggest you transfer to something better suited to your aptitudes.  I just can't see Adolin the Actuary or Adolin the Accountant. 

He would be able to do it if he applied his obsessive Kholin singlemindedness to it like he does with duelling, but I don't think it would make him happy.  I think Adolin would be better at vocational subjects than academic ones.  When I was in school, there was woodshop class, sewing, cooking, and architectural drafting.  Trade skills can be as useful as book learning, no matter what Jasnah and Shallan think.

 

On 22/08/2016 at 6:12 AM, maxal said:

You can't expect authors to be as communicative as Brandon, but when you stumble on one, he does end up creating the expectations he will be. This is why when the author is seen to communicate several piece of information other readers yearned to have while not communicating others, there are some which get disappointed. In a perfect world, negative feelings of disappointment would never exist, but since this is the real-world then, yes having a very communicative author does have its perks and its downsides. In your Holt Renfrew example, yes I would be disappointed if they suddenly stopped giving out the gift bags after a 500$ expense within their stores just as I was disappointed when my gym stopped giving me a free training bag upon each renewal of my subscription. Mind, I am still a member at the same gym, but I have said from times to times they had gotten cheap. Since then, I have stopped complaining because they actually allow me to keep on training at my extremely low monthly rate due to myself being a long-term client, but still. Hence the problems is as soon as you create expectations, you create disappointment: one does not go without the other. Nobody has to create the expectations to begin with, but they are inevitable. 

In my mind, I have mostly separated authors as people from the works they create.  I want to read the stories in a fictional universe without bothering about an author's personal life or what they do that isn't related to their writing.  That's why I can still enjoy Ender's Game without reading too deeply into Orson Scott Card's personal beliefs, which have ruined the series for other people.  Compared to other authors I follow or have followed in the past, Brandon is probably top-3 in terms of fan interaction.  There are couple of authors I know of who have forums set up by their publishers where they post in person and answer direct questions, but the vast majority of authors just post updates for book signings or sales of their books and merch, or advertise their newest book.  I hold Brandon on a expectation scale compared to all other authors, and compared to them, he is an absolute machine.  You compare all Brandon interactions to how often he has replied to posts in the past, and get disappointed if he doesn't answer as many questions now as he did a year  ago.  It's a mindset thing, I think.  Brandon doesn't create expectations; everyone creates them in their own heads.  That's why they are so different from person to person, where some have none and some have them up way too high.  And you have to keep in mind that the time he takes to write detailed answers for people is time that he isn't spending on his newest book.  

You just need to chill, gancho.  Not getting an answer from an author isn't the end of the world, and neither is getting a downvote.  Life is less stressful if you don't try to analyse yourself or other people when things like that happen, or take it personally.  I've always found that trying to fit in is easier if you make it organic rather than worrying about downvotes or upvotes or whatever.  Why does it even matter?  They are just coloured arrows.  

Shallan wouldn't have needed Tyn to turn her lying and secretive.  She's got plenty of that on her own.  I always thought that Tyn was another female role model teaching realistic life lessons that Shallan never got in her sheltered past life.  Just like Jasnah wanted to teach Shallan a lesson in that alley in Kharbranth, and show her how power is all about perception with the Thaylen sailors when she wanted to draw the lucky giant squid thing, Tyn's presence was a continuation of that, a way to toughen Shallan up and prepare her for journey as a Radiant.  The same way Lirin and Kaladin amputated that girl's fingers in the first flashback chapter in WoK was a lesson about what it means to save people.

 

On 22/08/2016 at 6:12 AM, maxal said:

Does Alethi commander know how to lose? I hope they do.. In each battle, there is a winner and a loser: Adolin has never really been on the losing side. If he managed to get to the gemstone last, it still, technically, isn't a lost, it isn't a retreat. If he ever went through one, it was never mentioned: it is fair to say the Tower was the worst battle Adolin ever partake in and it left him shaken. It may be, as you say, no other commander have this experience, but we can be sure fighting in the Desolation will imply their fair share of rout and strategic defeats. While I am convinced someone like Dalinar wouldn't be personally impacted by such an event, I can't say I am convinced the same would happen to Adolin... Maybe I am wrong, but Adolin is young and his battle experience isn't as extensive as his father: the Shattered Plains hardly even counts as a war. For the record, Kaladin doesn't know how to lose either, but since he isn't a battle field commander, he may never have to live through it.

If Alethi culture is as warlike as warlike cultures on Earth, there's the possibility that an Alethi commander won't accept defeat unless there is absolutely no one else left to fight, total war "to the last man" style.  It's the death before dishonour type mentality, where even though the Kholins lost two thirds of their men at the Tower, they didn't "lose" because there was still one third left to throw at either Sadeas or the Parshendi.  The difference between the typical Alethi commander (Dalinar included) and Adolin is that men and soldiers are tools to use to achieve a means, and Adolin thinks of his men as real people with human lives and families and other nice things.  I would expect that any mental breakdown that Adolin gets as a result of losing a "for real" battle is more due to the senseless loss of life rather than an ego-blow of being a big fat loser, and any typical Alethi who sees Adolin beating up walls in Shardplate or carving holes in the floor with his Blade afterwards would assume he's doing it because of his shaken ego.  He projects the confident image, and people assume he's confident, but in reality he has really sensitive feelings.  I found it interesting that Adolin's mental dialogue pointed out that Jakamav's termination of friendship in WoR shook him up worse than all the Shardplate shenanigans fighting for the gemheart, and they could have died from that if something went wrong.

Kaladin is the weird one where the people he has accepted into his "sphere of protection", such as his squad in Amaram's army, or fellow cage slaves, or Bridge Four are real people worth protecting.  The people who don't fall into his protection bubble are the ones he doesn't care about, and aren't real people to him.  This would be the lighteyed cavalry who died in the side carry chapter, Gaz's boss Lamaril, and Elhokar until the end of WoR.  

Kaladin would call Shallan's ability to have people want to take care of her and keep her safe "lighteyed privilege".  And the funny part is that he himself falls for this ability after their adventure in the chasms.  As a character trait, I find Shallan's ability mildly Mary Sue-ish, but it is mostly justified by her magical powers, since I personally don't find her as funny as other characters keep telling me that she is.   It has the effect of making her interactions with other characters and gaining their trust so easy that a lot of tension is lost when Shallan can just talk her way out of bad consequences.  I liked that Navani was not immediately won over by Shallan's sweet talking that Dalinar and Adolin and presumably Elhokar (who gave her the pardons for her guards) were at first impression.  By the end of WoR, Navani was cold to Shallan multiple times and it was only those last 2 weeks that the chasm thing happened and she warmed up.  Two weeks with Shallan and Navani supports her over two decades of being Adolin's aunt?  Ugh, please no.

 

On 22/08/2016 at 6:12 AM, maxal said:

I agree Molly would have never been happy had she chose to settle down with Fitz early on. Fitz would have never been happy either had he settled down with Molly. He just wasn't in the right mood frame to be a husband, but then this is typical Hobb. To have her characters being shuffle away from their intended path early on is her trademark... Fitz, Althea, Wintrow, Sedric, Neware and I could go on, the list is long. Malta and Reyn, strangely never bothered me. Reyn was clearly looking for something he hadn't find within the Rain Wild while Malta was a brat who thought playing at being a seductress merely was a game, until she gets caught into it. She had a lot of growth and having her learn to appreciate Reyn, despite his scars was really endearing: the age difference never bothered me, as strange as it may sound considering how bothered I usually am with it. It probably is because there weren't any other characters available for shipping while in SA, I keep wondering why Adolin has to be so much older than everyone else.

I thought that Malta and Reyn were kind of questionable as a couple at first, because Malta's introduction made it pretty clear she was naive, didn't think about consequences when she spent her family's money on things they couldn't afford, and was easily taken advantage of, when she went to that dodgy dressmaker.  This stereotypical bratty teenage girl which would be perfectly translated to modern Earth is exactly the kind of person who shouldn't be getting into relationships with anyone, let alone some guy who is half a decade older and wants a serious long-term relationship where Malta just wants to flirt and have pretty things bought for her.  If they didn't get character development, their relationship would have ended up as a trainwreck.  Fitz's problem was that his character development took decades and he is an old man by the Fitz and Fool trilogy, and Molly wouldn't have waited for him to grow up.

Adolin is the only guy other than Kaladin or Renarin who is in the same age-range as Shallan.  When Jasnah set up the betrothal, Shallan didn't care which brother it was, and would have been grateful to have Renarin because he was still a prince and a Kholin.  Who knows what could have come of that?  Shallan might dislike Renarin for his weirdness, but she'd still be polite and flirty with him because that is expected for her.  The male with the closest age to Shallan was Tien, who would be one year older if he was alive.  More open-minded readers would expand the net to include everyone, not just guys or Alethi/Vedens or even humans, to be potential future partners.  But Shallan is Vorin, and I don't think Vorin church ardents would accept a marriage contract with them.

The Ron supporters out there say that he is the heart of the group, helping Harry feel less weird about being the Boy Who Lived celebrity, and Hermione being the Muggleborn class prodigy.  He is the only one fully brought up in the magical world, while Harry and Hermione spent all of their early childhoods and their summers iin the Muggle world.  In the first book, Ron takes on the magical chessboard for them, and when Hermione angsts over one of the puzzles, he yells at her "ARE YOU A WITCH OR NOT".  So he does bring something to the group, and is a good friend when he doesn't get hit by the puberty hormones starting from book 6.  He and Hermione or even Hermione and Harry could have ended up dating given enough time, but the problem with the ending to HP7 was how abrupt it was.  One chapter, not enough buildup.  In comparison, Ginny had a bit more buildup and character development for her relationship with Harry.  She got over her crush, the Tom Riddle mindcontrol thing and dated other people, and continued calmly with her life.  Cho Chang was an emotional rollercoaster.  After the war, I think Ginny's personality would have suited Harry much better, if the whole deal where Harry looks like James and Ginny is a redhead like Lily doesn't freak you out.

Cornelia Funke is a German author and "Dragon Rider" took a few years to be translated into English.  The books about animals I suggested a few posts up are 20-50+ years old, and they should have translations out there, but maybe not at your local library.  When I was a kid I loved books about animals, and the selection for children focused mostly on pet dogs and pet horses in the English countryside, with other animals being rarer.  Kid books about dragons seem to be a newer trend because they were never that common as they are now.  Same with ninja, assassin, super spy, martial artist, secret organisation operative kid protagonists.  Protagonists in the old days were just regular neighbourhood kids with homework and paper routes.

 

On 22/08/2016 at 6:12 AM, maxal said:

What narrative plot point would it serve? Getting Adolin out of the way for Kaladin? Cement Adolin into the one protagonist who never develops into a hero? Make him go onto a downward spiral without any hope to climb back up until he dies of it and thus, give all the room to Kaladin? Realistically speaking, it serves no purpose for Adolin's character development providing he becomes a fully fleshed out character, but it may serve purpose for other characters. It may merely be a ploy to get Adolin out of the way in order to allow the main narrative to focus on the other characters. Now, I doubt the author would do this, but we never know. Still, I agree it is a terrible story arc, quite boring too.

I dislike "forced marriage with mutual dislike" type plots common in political fantasies and historical fiction.  Outside of romance novels where the girl and the guy gradually get to know each other and fall in love for reals, the "realistic" plotline is something very depressing where both partners are miserable together and end up cheating or poisoning one another.  Unless it is handled well as a secondary or tertiary plotline, it becomes very unpleasant to read and goes nowhere until someone dies.  Cersei and Robert, ugh, no thanks.

There's nothing wrong with a protagonist gaining new powers through hard work or an in-universe god.  The problem of being boring comes from the lack of conflict and tension when the newly powered protagonist can easily win any fight he participates in.  You aren't on the edge of your seat when it's a guaranteed win every single time, just like being a level 100 game character crawling the noob dungeons and every single monster you meet can be killed with a single click of the mouse and swipe of the sword.  It becomes so easy that there's no effort, no fun, no sense of achievement.

That's Kaladin when the main Big Bad Monster of the series (Szeth) just gives up and is killed.  Up until then, Szeth was going around killing piles of Shardbearers in the Veden court, the Azish primes one after the other, and a bunch of other world leaders.  To retain tension when leveling up protagonists, you have to have a balance, and either level up the villains as well, or introduce new villains with an increased difficulty as lots of superhero cartoons do with their Rogue Galleries.  Or you go the opposite route (which I rant about) which is where the author tries to retain tension by de-leveling the protagonist and he loses his powers for an episode, or is gets the Idiot Ball and forgets he could fly or walk through walls.

One of the key features of rational fiction is that the characters have to stay in character at all times, and all of the actions that occur happen because the characters did them, not because the plot demanded it happen.  In rational fantasies, saving the world can happen.  But it happens because the protagonist understood what the villain was up to and took steps to prevent him from blowing the moon up or spreading the zombie virus, and didn't stick around to listen to the villain's pre-world domination bragging speech where the dastardly plans are explained in full detail.  There can be impulsive actions from characters, but only if the character was established as impulsive and the action doesn't violate any of the previous characterisation.  Elhokar might order Kaladin arrested for execution after the duel, because he is petty and spoiled.  Elhokar would not order all of Bridge Four executed as punishment because he is only petty and not sociopathic.  Some authors would do it as a contrived plot point to make Kaladin darker and more vengeful, and that is what rational fiction seeks to avoid.  If the trauma stick is applied, it not only has to have a purpose, but it has to make sense in the story and not just be author-guided bad luck like what happens to Fitz.

I find reading rational stories really refreshing because I face-palm much less often, and it's a good thing to decompress with after watching a movie where you throw popcorn at the screen because the characters are just so darn stupid.   And contrived plot coincidences get my eyes rolling.   I don't have a problem with Kaladin saving Elhokar or saving Dalinar at the end of WoR.  I just find it highly coincidental that Kaladin came to his moment of truth that Elhokar was Dalinar's Tien exactly at the right moment to stop Moash.  And then he flies across the Plains at the right moment to catch Dalinar in the air and stop Szeth.  With one liners each time.

Kaladin is overpowered relative to everyone else.  He can one hit kill pretty much everyone at this point.  In the first book, a Shardbearer, a Chasmfiend, and an experienced Surgebinder were established as the three most dangerous opponents on Roshar, and by WoR, Kaladin has defeated all three.  Sure, his power level makes him "awesome" but there's no conflict and no tension just like if he had been Merrin the Shardbearer.  You expect Adolin to get a beatdown as the first step to spren awakening, but I am eagerly anticipating Kaladin getting a beatdown for humility in SA3.  

 

We're all horribly biased.  I have a personal dislike of characters who know important things but don't do anything about it, like you dislike secretive characters.  I feel that having important facts and taking no action can be as stupid as doing stupid things directly, and I have no patience for secretive personal "issues" being an excuse for such behaviour when these issues are so lightly touched upon that they sound more like informed excuses rather than a solid reason.  We all dislike that flakey friend who sends you a text message saying "sorry didn't feel like coming today" when "I'm getting a new kidney" is so much better.  

That's why Renarin and Wit annoy me. 

 

 

 

 

---

Art Time

SA Poster series

 

The Ghostbloods

Poster 1

Spoiler

The cut off characters on the top were supposed to be Wit, Taln/Talenel, and Amaram.  All characters in the Ghostbloods plot arc.

 

Poster 2

Spoiler

The Ghostbloods would make a pretty cool band name.  This unintentionally turned out to look a lot like the Franconian coat of arms.  Totally not on purpose, I swear!

One thing that always bothered me was that the Ghostbloods logo was never properly shown.  It's 3 diamonds, but how are they arranged???  So here are two posters where I fiddle with the size and shape of the logo and came up with two designs.  They are more in the style of movie posters than the travel posters of the last Art Time post.  

This is the first time I've ever drawn Iyatil.  I think the mask needs a bit more work.  I drew it as a mask, because the first impression Shallan makes of her is thinking "weird mask".  Only up close does it look like it's growing into her skin.  But blending in the edges with her skin made it look like she had a weird scab or skin disease growing on her face, and not a mask, so I just kept the distinct carnival mask look.

 

 

The Slave Wagon

Quote

“The others cry at night,” she said. “But you don’t.”
“Why cry?” he said, leaning his head back against the bars. “What would it change?”
“I don’t know. Why do men cry?”
Chapter 4, "The Shattered Plains", Way of Kings

 

Spoiler

At first this was supposed to be another travel poster for "Tvlakv's caravan tours", and that's  what the top half is - a stylised journey into the sunset, with romantic colours in a warm red and orange palette.  But the bottom half got dark, because it's a freakin' slave wagon.  I imagined a slave wagon to be a boxlike cage on wheels.  The roof unclips into panels that can be slid down and locked into place over the bars during highstorms.  The colouring on the bottom (the glowing windspren) was influenced by the Michael Whelan SA covers.  So this is like a double homage to vintage travel posters and fantasy cover artists.

 

Detail

Spoiler

Syl is a silly windspren.  In cartoon depictions I make her a faceless blobby thing with stubs for limbs, but in painted depictions, she is more like a little blue girl with Rapunzel hair.

And yes, I am aware that the chull looks more like a turtle than a chull.  A six legged turtle bug.

 

Training Day

Quote

“We’ll start you off easily, then,” Zahel said. “There are some steps at the corner over there. Climb up onto the roof of the dueling grounds. Then jump off.”
Renarin looked up sharply. “. . . Jump?”
“I’m old, son,” Zahel said. “Repeating myself makes me eat the wrong flower.”
Chapter 18, "Bruises", Words of Radiance

Quote

“What is she doing here?” Kaladin asked.
“Come to watch me while I spar, presumably,” Adolin said. “I usually have to kick them out.”
“Them?”
“You know. Girls who want to gawk at me while I fight. I wouldn’t mind, but if we allowed it, they’d clog the entire grounds every time I came. Nobody would be able to get any sparring done.”
Chapter 44, "One Form of Justice", Words of Radiance

 

Spoiler

This is kind of a mashup of the timeline, but whatever, artistic license!!!  
Normally I dislike drawing backgrounds because it requires a lot more planning to get the perspective right and the lines mostly straight (which sucks) compared to jumping straight into the fun part of colouring.  But I wanted to draw the Kholin warcamp's training arena, because I have seen few artists drawing Alethi architecture, so there's few good pictures to make my mental imaginings more vivid.

I drew the training arena to be a square of long rectangular blocks made of  solid pieces of Soulcast stone, and that is why they're mostly the same shade of brown.  The steps lead down into the sand, and the shallow pool/sandbox keeps it from washing away in highstorms.  The doors lead to storage and bathing rooms, and one goes up to the roof.  On a regular working day, there would be more people around, and random spectators, but I didn't feel like drawing them.

 

Detail 1
Shallan and Adolin flirting, while Kaladin is a grump.

Spoiler

 

Detail 2
Renarin's Shardplate training.

Spoiler

 

Process

Spoiler

The amount of extra planning, sketching and drawing that goes into pieces with backgrounds... But it makes it more atmospheric.  Is it worth it?  Who knows?  I guess it gives me the reputation of being one of the most crazy obsessive Cosmere artists in the fandom.
Not shown in this pic - drawing the characters in and adding all the shadows so that they blend into the environment, and adjusting the colours and lighting for a warm "storybook illustration on a summer day" look.  Compare this look to my previous illustrated scenes in an animated series style a few pages ago.  I like to mix things up.

 

 

Jasnah in coloured pencil
Since I mentioned coloured pencils higher up in this post.  It looks way better in real life.

Spoiler

 

Process

Spoiler

1.  Outline - I use Sanford-Prismacolor Col-Erase pencil rather than traditional graphite.  I've found that graphite pencils smear when you put colour pencil on them, and this leads to messy dark grey streaks in your colouring.  The Col-Erase has wax in it, and blends better with coloured pencil.  It's also washable and brushing it with water turns it into a watercolour pencil.  Pretty cool stuff.
2.  Base colours - Everything done super light.  You have to be careful and keep a light hand.  Never go dark too quickly, because the smooth look comes from applying light layer after light layer in a bunch of different colours for extra depth and dimension.  Blending looks better in light layers.  When you've  saturated the paper completely (imagine going full force with crayons on paper) and it's fully covered in the wax and pigment blend, new colours won't have anywhere to stick, because the colour comes from pencil lead being scraped off onto the paper.
3.  Going dark, and defining the shadowed parts of the face and hair.  The face is something like 4 shades of brown, 3 shades of pink, and 1 burgundy red pencil that makes some really nice warm shadows.
4.  Clothing and hair details.  I don't use black or white pencil until the very end.  The black to define the darkest points (the hair, the corners of the mouth, the corners of the eyes).  The white is really great for blending out the colours and smoothing everything out, but you have to leave it until last because you can't add colours on top once you've blended.

I haven't used coloured pencil in months, and now I understand why.  I get sad every time I have to sharpen a pencil, and the lead breaks and I have to keep sharpening it and I lose a centimetre of length.  Digital art doesn't burn through physical supplies that need replacement after use.

A lot of the techniques from graphite and charcoal drawing can be carried over to coloured pencil.  One of the most important skills is control.  Learn to control your strength and apply only the lightest layers with even consistency, or else you get streaks of colour instead of an even flat base.  Then you carefully build on from light to dark like making a 2D topographic map.  The softer the lead, the easier it is to go dark too quickly.  That's why I think graphite is the easiest medium to work with, because you can just get a set of pencils from H to 2B hardness and control suddenly matters a lot less.

If I go outside and draw things, people passing by look at it like I'm doing magic or something.  I think that's why I prefer going inside and drawing digitally.  If I draw glowing people and giant fantasy swords on the computer, nobody is standing behind my shoulder judging me for being a weirdo for not drawing fruit bowls.

 

 

Some random cosplay stuff

Not SA, but I thought it was cool enough to be worth showing you guys.
This is Juggernaut, a playable character from the game DotA 2.  

Spoiler

 

Sketch concept

Spoiler

Armour pieces

Spoiler

Gotta prime these and then spray paint.  He has armour on the back and the front, in rectangular panels like the lacquered wood on IRL historical samurai armour.  But cosplay is not historical re-enactments, so there's no need to do everything accurately with the same materials and techniques as the original stuff.  Lacquered wood or plate metal armour is too heavy and expensive and hard to work with so everyone uses foam. 

And vambraces from another cosplay.

Spoiler

The armour is made from EVA foam as a base, with the details cut out from thinner craft foam and hot glued on.  The more complicated the armour, the more pieces you have to draw patterns for, trace, cut out, prime, paint and glue together.  That is why Shardbearer cosplay is really rare, and none of it is as complicated as the official canon drawings in the books.

 

Whew, this one was a long post.

[Darkness Ascendant]

You cosplay as well......holy storms your amazing

[Argel]

On 8/21/2016 at 4:12 PM, maxal said:

Does Alethi commander know how to lose?

Presumably if they thought their shards were at risk, they would withdraw. 

@sheep, great artwork as always! Really like the Ghostbloods!!

[maxal]

4 minutes ago, Argel said:

Presumably if they thought their shards were at risk, they would withdraw. 

@sheep, great artwork as always! Really like the Ghostbloods!!

By losing, I mean a complete rout where the majority of the soldiers are slaughtered by an impossible foe which would be caused by bad judgment call and not betrayal. The Tower was not a complete rout because nobody was truly to blame but Sadea, but say Adolin decides for a different strategy on the Plateau fight, but ends up witnessing the majority of his men being killed and is forced to sound retreat. 

Dead of several of thousand caused by the general's decision making. 

[Rasarr]

@sheep, that's some awesome art! I absolutely adore your design of Iyatil's mask, and the colour in both the poster and - especially - the slaver wagon piece is just stunning. And the details in the "training day" pic cracked me up; especially Shallan's smile  For some reason, I've always imagined the ghostblood symbol to look more along the lines of this:

 

but you're right, we don't really have a good description - and my vision doesn't lend itself to character portraits, really. 

10 hours ago, sheep said:

I had trouble picturing Urithiru's scale because I had difficulty imagining the building itself.  It's supposed to be like cups stacked on top of each other... are the cups' openings facing down, or facing up?  Which changes the angles of the terraces and the silhouette of the whole building.  I don't think any other fan artist knows, since I've seen it both ways when someone bothers to draw it (which is rare).  All I see is "inspiration boards" using paintings of the Tower of Babel ripped off Google.

My personal quest to figure out Urithiru continues! Yeah, the problem with the building is that it's so ridiculously huge, it's kind of hard to imagine it in the context of fantasy series. Either those terraces are ridiculously tiny, are partly hidden under the next level, or the building's base is unreasonably wide. So we have to think less cups and more wide bowls. Regardless, from a distance it would probably look something like a fat unicorn horn - even if the topmost level is only a tiny round chamber of 1 m radius, it would still make the ground level have a radius half again that of Burj Khalifa's (itself roughly twice the height of Urithiru). 

That tall triangle over Burj Khalifa is supposed to be Urithiru. 

Hope my musings are even moderately helpful.

[CarolaDavar]

So. . . Ghostbloods The band, eh? What about. . . Bridge four the band!(I challenge you to draw that. But I won't force you.)"and then KAladin flew down from the sky, weilding. . . Was that a. . . Shardguitar?" 

[maxal]

9 hours ago, sheep said:

Drawing fruit bowls and life drawing in general forces students to analyse their environments and break down a scene in front of them into its most basic components.  Sitting there, you end up realising how all those earlier lessons on perspective, shape, colour, form and shadow end up tying together.  Those skills are pretty flexible and can be used for drawing other things.  Whereas when you draw dragons from your imagination, you only really get good at drawing dragons.  

That's an interesting explanation: I never thought it in such terms but then again, my drawing skills are currently limited to stick figures  I wouldn't know the first thing about anything more complex than a toy car and even then... My 3 years old once ask if daddy could draw it because mommy didn't do it right  I have other talents though 

9 hours ago, sheep said:

If Adolin was better at school subjects with applied mathematics, like chemistry or physics or statistics, he wouldn't be able to get away with playing the dumb student.  Those types of subjects, at least once you get past the high school level, you either show you get it, or you don't and they politely suggest you transfer to something better suited to your aptitudes.  I just can't see Adolin the Actuary or Adolin the Accountant. 

He would be able to do it if he applied his obsessive Kholin singlemindedness to it like he does with duelling, but I don't think it would make him happy.  I think Adolin would be better at vocational subjects than academic ones.  When I was in school, there was woodshop class, sewing, cooking, and architectural drafting.  Trade skills can be as useful as book learning, no matter what Jasnah and Shallan think.

OMG I love nerd accountant Adolin  Still I agree it is pretty grim for him. When it comes to science, there are applied sciences and natural sciences: the applied sciences are the ones dealing most with hand to hand experience, trial and errors, while natural sciences generally require memorizing skills. In between the two, Adolin would probably do best with the first one and terrible with the second one. Providing he finds an interest in it (it is hard to know what academic subject Adolin would be interest in considering he never had formal education), he'd be the kind of student who does loads and loads of exercises up until he is confident enough he can figure out the ones ask during the test. It fits within his personality traits and skill aptitudes, but the question remains will he bother?

I don't think he'd necessarily hate it: accountant is one career perspective which would better fit Renarin than Adolin, but there are many other interesting careers using the same sets of skills. A lot of my male colleagues make me think of Adolin in various ways: fashionable, very athletic and competitive (everyone does at least one sport where I work, it almost seems as if it a hiring criteria ), extroverted, talkative, bouncy... I swear one of my younger colleagues is more talkative than myself  I didn't know it was possible  It is false to think the majority of engineers have personalities similar to Renarin or dress boringly in white shirts and brown socks: in my experience, they don't. I thus don't think Adolin would be bored... He'd do the soccer team, the rugby team, the ultimate frisbee team, the hockey team, he'd run lapses in the woods with the runners and he'd also do the Wednesday lunch time power yoga class (which contrary to the popular belief is filled with guys)  Of course, actuary and accountant is pushing it a tad far. It wouldn't be boring... but he'd be one of the guys settling for an early management position and seeing others doing it, I'd say he'd be very good at that. 

I somehow do not picture Adolin sewing or concentrating on manual work: it seems too slow for him. Not enough action. I think he'd prefer jobs where experience matters, a lot, where he can reapplied his learned skills and where the work is fast pace. I mean, I guess I don't think Adolin is not smart enough to try out at careers other then those requiring little instruction nor do I think he'd necessarily be flunking most of his classes. One thing certain though, no matter how good he does at school, it isn't something he'd broadcast because you know... reputation.

10 hours ago, sheep said:

In my mind, I have mostly separated authors as people from the works they create.  I want to read the stories in a fictional universe without bothering about an author's personal life or what they do that isn't related to their writing.  That's why I can still enjoy Ender's Game without reading too deeply into Orson Scott Card's personal beliefs, which have ruined the series for other people.  Compared to other authors I follow or have followed in the past, Brandon is probably top-3 in terms of fan interaction.  There are couple of authors I know of who have forums set up by their publishers where they post in person and answer direct questions, but the vast majority of authors just post updates for book signings or sales of their books and merch, or advertise their newest book.  I hold Brandon on a expectation scale compared to all other authors, and compared to them, he is an absolute machine.  You compare all Brandon interactions to how often he has replied to posts in the past, and get disappointed if he doesn't answer as many questions now as he did a year  ago.  It's a mindset thing, I think.  Brandon doesn't create expectations; everyone creates them in their own heads.  That's why they are so different from person to person, where some have none and some have them up way too high.  And you have to keep in mind that the time he takes to write detailed answers for people is time that he isn't spending on his newest book.  

You just need to chill, gancho.  Not getting an answer from an author isn't the end of the world, and neither is getting a downvote.  Life is less stressful if you don't try to analyse yourself or other people when things like that happen, or take it personally.  I've always found that trying to fit in is easier if you make it organic rather than worrying about downvotes or upvotes or whatever.  Why does it even matter?  They are just coloured arrows.  

Shallan wouldn't have needed Tyn to turn her lying and secretive.  She's got plenty of that on her own.  I always thought that Tyn was another female role model teaching realistic life lessons that Shallan never got in her sheltered past life.  Just like Jasnah wanted to teach Shallan a lesson in that alley in Kharbranth, and show her how power is all about perception with the Thaylen sailors when she wanted to draw the lucky giant squid thing, Tyn's presence was a continuation of that, a way to toughen Shallan up and prepare her for journey as a Radiant.  The same way Lirin and Kaladin amputated that girl's fingers in the first flashback chapter in WoK was a lesson about what it means to save people.

I don't typically bother with authors personal life unless they really are chull heads. I wouldn't have bothered with Brandon either if he hadn't be so communicative to begin with. It is why I say it has both good and bad side. Of course, the good side easily trumps the bad side, but it does get several readers to create themselves expectations. Obviously the author cannot be fault for this: he doesn't create those expectations, he is just being very generous and kind. I also think he does enjoy speaking with his readership from times to times: he also doesn't do it often enough to truly impact his writing pace. I absolutely agree it is a mindset thing: you see others getting an answer they have been yearning to have or you see the author speaking to the fandom of a given character specifically and you wonder why he does not do it for questions/characters you are interested in. As I said, it is pretty selfish and in the end it comes back to the same problem I have had since the start: I developed a very high interest within a series because of a character I yearn to read more of, but he unfortunately isn't a character the author feels he needs to expand much on. Trust me, if I had knew about it in advance, I would have never picked up the Stormlight Archive. I would have waited for the whole thing to be nearly finished.

Chill out? Me?  I am afraid I am not very good at chilling out  That's why I run, that's why I started playing rugby, because it helps huh with the chilling out thing... I have no idea what "making it organic" means as for fitting in, I am afraid I have never been very good at that... I am very much like Adolin in this regards except there is nothing others want from me, so they have no incentive to flock around in false friendships. 

Interesting analysis of Shallan, I admit I was not seeing in under those eyes. As I said, I dislike when characters are being purposefully secretive which is why I hated seeing Shallan move onto having started being more open, to lie again. I do agree some of Tyn's lessons were actually decent: eat the food you want, do not let society dictates what you should or should not be eating, who cares about a glove, half the world does not cover their left hand, be who you want to be not who society wants you to be. It got bad when she said not to trust the Kholins though...

10 hours ago, sheep said:

If Alethi culture is as warlike as warlike cultures on Earth, there's the possibility that an Alethi commander won't accept defeat unless there is absolutely no one else left to fight, total war "to the last man" style.  It's the death before dishonour type mentality, where even though the Kholins lost two thirds of their men at the Tower, they didn't "lose" because there was still one third left to throw at either Sadeas or the Parshendi.  The difference between the typical Alethi commander (Dalinar included) and Adolin is that men and soldiers are tools to use to achieve a means, and Adolin thinks of his men as real people with human lives and families and other nice things.  I would expect that any mental breakdown that Adolin gets as a result of losing a "for real" battle is more due to the senseless loss of life rather than an ego-blow of being a big fat loser, and any typical Alethi who sees Adolin beating up walls in Shardplate or carving holes in the floor with his Blade afterwards would assume he's doing it because of his shaken ego.  He projects the confident image, and people assume he's confident, but in reality he has really sensitive feelings.  I found it interesting that Adolin's mental dialogue pointed out that Jakamav's termination of friendship in WoR shook him up worse than all the Shardplate shenanigans fighting for the gemheart, and they could have died from that if something went wrong.

Kaladin is the weird one where the people he has accepted into his "sphere of protection", such as his squad in Amaram's army, or fellow cage slaves, or Bridge Four are real people worth protecting.  The people who don't fall into his protection bubble are the ones he doesn't care about, and aren't real people to him.  This would be the lighteyed cavalry who died in the side carry chapter, Gaz's boss Lamaril, and Elhokar until the end of WoR.  

Kaladin would call Shallan's ability to have people want to take care of her and keep her safe "lighteyed privilege".  And the funny part is that he himself falls for this ability after their adventure in the chasms.  As a character trait, I find Shallan's ability mildly Mary Sue-ish, but it is mostly justified by her magical powers, since I personally don't find her as funny as other characters keep telling me that she is.   It has the effect of making her interactions with other characters and gaining their trust so easy that a lot of tension is lost when Shallan can just talk her way out of bad consequences.  I liked that Navani was not immediately won over by Shallan's sweet talking that Dalinar and Adolin and presumably Elhokar (who gave her the pardons for her guards) were at first impression.  By the end of WoR, Navani was cold to Shallan multiple times and it was only those last 2 weeks that the chasm thing happened and she warmed up.  Two weeks with Shallan and Navani supports her over two decades of being Adolin's aunt?  Ugh, please no.

I agree about your take on Alethi and their war culture: it may be defeat rimes with death which is why having a real rout solving itself into having very few survivors would be a hard one to carry on, for any commander, but it may be worst for Adolin. Dalinar does see his soldiers as... soldiers. He will not waste them away, he will not purposefully send them to their death, he will not use them as bridgemen as he thinks it is cruel and inhuman, but he will not lose sleep if he makes the wrong call and some end up dying. If he gets bested, he'd likely plan the revenge or deal with the aftermath, but he wouldn't waste moments thinking about the good men, the good friends which have died yesterday. Dalinar states, early in WoK, it may be one of Adolin's weaknesses: his familiarity with the men, his tendency to befriend them, to get to know them... In other words, he is getting too close which is why, when they die, it hurts him. A good battle field commander cannot have friends within the soldiers, he cannot laugh with the water boys, he cannot have happy jibs with the spearmen because he knows he may have to send them to their death later on. Adolin is just too sensitive and I think, it will eventually get to him. He's a good tactician, but either he emotionally disconnects himself completely from his men or he breaks down when they start to die in masses when the Desolation hits.

Adolin's mental dialogue pointing out how Jakamav's rejection hurt more than any blows he ever received is the reason I started to dig into his character. Finally someone who is not stoic, someone who has feelings and someone who yearns for camaraderie instead of preferring being a lone wolf like the majority of fantasy main protagonists. I loved it because it mirrored my own problems with friendships and knowing all too well how much it hurts to be denied something you crave for, something most people take for granted, friendships, I could only sympathize. Usually, lonely characters are introverted who don't quite fit in like Renarin, but to see another extroverted, talkative and socially inclined like myself individual struggle exactly where I always struggled for very similar reasons was too good to pass over. I think this highlights what I like about characters and what I dislike... I dislike when authors use very common preconceptions to built their characters such as Renarin is an introverted who hardly talks, but since he asks how fabrial works, he has the mind of an engineer (It tackles with the preconceptions engineers all are quiet introverted individuals which do not quite fit in more interested on objects than on people which isn't quite true: engineers are problem solvers and problem solvers come in all sort of flavors, not just one). Or when the main protagonist invariably has no family and is a loner: I loved the fact Brandon featured a complete family within SA even if the focus isn't on them. Therefore, I tend to dislike when characters dealing with loneliness have this issues because they are heavily introverted or different: I find it more interesting to tackle it from the angle of someone like Adolin. It is refreshing and it breaks down preconceptions.

Kaladin only protects people he is able to associate to Tien which is why he finally ended up protecting Elhokar. It is why he takes on to Renarin immediately even if he is guilty of the same things he blames Adolin for. It is why he protects Bridge 4 and is incapable of seeing they may not all be poor fallen angels victims of an evil system: all are innocent, just like Tien and if they did crime, it was only because the lighteyes forced them to. Adolin actually is the very first individual we see Kaladin start to have a relationship with which doesn't rely on the Tien's comparison. Adolin is the first time Kaladin yearned to protect someone which he disliked and no Elhokar does not count as Elhokar got a free pass when he became "another Tien". It is why Adolin is so important to Kaladin's character development, though I'd wish Adolin were important for his own character development.

As for Navani, how close is she to Adolin? Simply because he is family does not mean she is close to him.

On 8/27/2016 at 5:32 AM, sheep said:

I thought that Malta and Reyn were kind of questionable as a couple at first, because Malta's introduction made it pretty clear she was naive, didn't think about consequences when she spent her family's money on things they couldn't afford, and was easily taken advantage of, when she went to that dodgy dressmaker.  This stereotypical bratty teenage girl which would be perfectly translated to modern Earth is exactly the kind of person who shouldn't be getting into relationships with anyone, let alone some guy who is half a decade older and wants a serious long-term relationship where Malta just wants to flirt and have pretty things bought for her.  If they didn't get character development, their relationship would have ended up as a trainwreck.  Fitz's problem was that his character development took decades and he is an old man by the Fitz and Fool trilogy, and Molly wouldn't have waited for him to grow up.

Adolin is the only guy other than Kaladin or Renarin who is in the same age-range as Shallan.  When Jasnah set up the betrothal, Shallan didn't care which brother it was, and would have been grateful to have Renarin because he was still a prince and a Kholin.  Who knows what could have come of that?  Shallan might dislike Renarin for his weirdness, but she'd still be polite and flirty with him because that is expected for her.  The male with the closest age to Shallan was Tien, who would be one year older if he was alive.  More open-minded readers would expand the net to include everyone, not just guys or Alethi/Vedens or even humans, to be potential future partners.  But Shallan is Vorin, and I don't think Vorin church ardents would accept a marriage contract with them.

The Ron supporters out there say that he is the heart of the group, helping Harry feel less weird about being the Boy Who Lived celebrity, and Hermione being the Muggleborn class prodigy.  He is the only one fully brought up in the magical world, while Harry and Hermione spent all of their early childhoods and their summers iin the Muggle world.  In the first book, Ron takes on the magical chessboard for them, and when Hermione angsts over one of the puzzles, he yells at her "ARE YOU A WITCH OR NOT".  So he does bring something to the group, and is a good friend when he doesn't get hit by the puberty hormones starting from book 6.  He and Hermione or even Hermione and Harry could have ended up dating given enough time, but the problem with the ending to HP7 was how abrupt it was.  One chapter, not enough buildup.  In comparison, Ginny had a bit more buildup and character development for her relationship with Harry.  She got over her crush, the Tom Riddle mindcontrol thing and dated other people, and continued calmly with her life.  Cho Chang was an emotional rollercoaster.  After the war, I think Ginny's personality would have suited Harry much better, if the whole deal where Harry looks like James and Ginny is a redhead like Lily doesn't freak you out.

Cornelia Funke is a German author and "Dragon Rider" took a few years to be translated into English.  The books about animals I suggested a few posts up are 20-50+ years old, and they should have translations out there, but maybe not at your local library.  When I was a kid I loved books about animals, and the selection for children focused mostly on pet dogs and pet horses in the English countryside, with other animals being rarer.  Kid books about dragons seem to be a newer trend because they were never that common as they are now.  Same with ninja, assassin, super spy, martial artist, secret organisation operative kid protagonists.  Protagonists in the old days were just regular neighbourhood kids with homework and paper routes.

 

Malta initially gets into a relationship with Reyn merely because he was fawning over her, giving her gifts and everything. She never had the intention to marry him, not at first. She doesn't start to love until much later in the story and the way she morphs from the bratty selfish spoiled girl to a determined woman truly was compelling, especially since her story arc was devoid of Hobb typical hopelessness. 

Fitz is a dispiriting character to read because you, as a reader, are just waiting, for the whole time, for him to stop hiding his true identity and it never happens. Why can't he just come forward as Prince Fitzchivalry? This has annoyed me in the second trilogy, though he isn't an old man... He's in his thirties, so not that old. I haven't read the third trilogy though. Probably will, eventually.

You know, Shallan/Renarin was the preferred ship for the longest time prior to WoR release. Even when the preview chapter featuring the engagement to Adolin was released, everyone was convinced Shallan would prefer Renarin over Adolin. I had always find it fascinating how this ship managed to sail this far with so little solid roots. It seems obvious, after reading WoR, Renarin's quiet manners, careful speaking and long pauses would unnerve Shallan more than seduce her. I guess a lot of readers hoped Shallan wouldn't go for handsome Adolin, instead preferring not quite so handsome Renarin which tackles to another trope wanting the quiet brother to be the best pick over the older more capable one. Characters such as Renarin are always deemed more interesting and always end up more important to fantasy stories than characters such as Adolin. Sadly, SA will not break this mold as Brandon has announced Renarin was mightily more important than Adolin and would, eventually, get a lot of page time while admitting he didn't think Adolin needed much. 

It isn't Ron is devoid of qualities, but the movie more or less ruined the character. Rupert didn't make a convincing Ron and while he did brought in interesting aspects, he is the least developed of the main protagonists. His cleverness at chess isn't exploited well enough as well as his talents which made him come across as a mere side-kick who gets to do stuff mostly because he befriended Harry. He is the character I enjoyed reading the least because I always felt he lack... something. The epilogue was badly handled as having every characters still dating their High School sweetheart seems implausible... Hermione and Ron never strike to me as a solid union and if I can get why teenagers would date, as adults, I think can't fathom how they even connected.

As a kid I had a thing for horses... Therefore, if a book had the picture of a horse on it or the word "horse" spelled into the title, then you can be sure I read it 

On 8/27/2016 at 5:32 AM, sheep said:

I dislike "forced marriage with mutual dislike" type plots common in political fantasies and historical fiction.  Outside of romance novels where the girl and the guy gradually get to know each other and fall in love for reals, the "realistic" plotline is something very depressing where both partners are miserable together and end up cheating or poisoning one another.  Unless it is handled well as a secondary or tertiary plotline, it becomes very unpleasant to read and goes nowhere until someone dies.  Cersei and Robert, ugh, no thanks.

There's nothing wrong with a protagonist gaining new powers through hard work or an in-universe god.  The problem of being boring comes from the lack of conflict and tension when the newly powered protagonist can easily win any fight he participates in.  You aren't on the edge of your seat when it's a guaranteed win every single time, just like being a level 100 game character crawling the noob dungeons and every single monster you meet can be killed with a single click of the mouse and swipe of the sword.  It becomes so easy that there's no effort, no fun, no sense of achievement.

That's Kaladin when the main Big Bad Monster of the series (Szeth) just gives up and is killed.  Up until then, Szeth was going around killing piles of Shardbearers in the Veden court, the Azish primes one after the other, and a bunch of other world leaders.  To retain tension when leveling up protagonists, you have to have a balance, and either level up the villains as well, or introduce new villains with an increased difficulty as lots of superhero cartoons do with their Rogue Galleries.  Or you go the opposite route (which I rant about) which is where the author tries to retain tension by de-leveling the protagonist and he loses his powers for an episode, or is gets the Idiot Ball and forgets he could fly or walk through walls.

One of the key features of rational fiction is that the characters have to stay in character at all times, and all of the actions that occur happen because the characters did them, not because the plot demanded it happen.  In rational fantasies, saving the world can happen.  But it happens because the protagonist understood what the villain was up to and took steps to prevent him from blowing the moon up or spreading the zombie virus, and didn't stick around to listen to the villain's pre-world domination bragging speech where the dastardly plans are explained in full detail.  There can be impulsive actions from characters, but only if the character was established as impulsive and the action doesn't violate any of the previous characterisation.  Elhokar might order Kaladin arrested for execution after the duel, because he is petty and spoiled.  Elhokar would not order all of Bridge Four executed as punishment because he is only petty and not sociopathic.  Some authors would do it as a contrived plot point to make Kaladin darker and more vengeful, and that is what rational fiction seeks to avoid.  If the trauma stick is applied, it not only has to have a purpose, but it has to make sense in the story and not just be author-guided bad luck like what happens to Fitz.

I find reading rational stories really refreshing because I face-palm much less often, and it's a good thing to decompress with after watching a movie where you throw popcorn at the screen because the characters are just so darn stupid.   And contrived plot coincidences get my eyes rolling.   I don't have a problem with Kaladin saving Elhokar or saving Dalinar at the end of WoR.  I just find it highly coincidental that Kaladin came to his moment of truth that Elhokar was Dalinar's Tien exactly at the right moment to stop Moash.  And then he flies across the Plains at the right moment to catch Dalinar in the air and stop Szeth.  With one liners each time.

Kaladin is overpowered relative to everyone else.  He can one hit kill pretty much everyone at this point.  In the first book, a Shardbearer, a Chasmfiend, and an experienced Surgebinder were established as the three most dangerous opponents on Roshar, and by WoR, Kaladin has defeated all three.  Sure, his power level makes him "awesome" but there's no conflict and no tension just like if he had been Merrin the Shardbearer.  You expect Adolin to get a beatdown as the first step to spren awakening, but I am eagerly anticipating Kaladin getting a beatdown for humility in SA3.  

To be satisfactory, a plot arc has to serve a purpose. The arranged marriage in between two people whom hate each other may serve a purpose if it is to justify terrible actions being conducted, but to force it merely to watch one of the protagonists suffer is pointless. And uninteresting. It is probably why Brandon has a track record to make them work because once you established a given character absolutely have to marry another character, then you have two choices: either it works out, they develop complicity and teamed up against common foes or it fails and one character ends up endlessly miserable ending up either killing his/her spouse or committing suicide. Since Brandon writes societies where divorce doesn't exist and since he doesn't do the hopelessness of Hobb, he has to either stop the union before it becomes official or have it work against all odds. Adolin and Shallan are in a particular position in the sense neither is forced to marry the other which is why I am reluctant to call it an "arranged wedding". 

Having a protagonist gain powers through hard work is terribly satisfying because it makes the character feel deserving and sympathetic. If the powers are hard to obtain, then merely climbing up this ladder is conflict enough to sustain the story but give them without any condition to a character and you lose this aspect. Kaladin's character doesn't have the "hard work trope" going on for him as while the author has made sure to make appear as miserable as possible, he still gained his powers in a relatively short time with relatively low efforts. He feels more akin to the "special chosen one" given powers because "it is his destiny". Now destiny doesn't quite work out for Kaladin, but Syl mentioning how she searched across all the land looking for him, specifically, does give the impression the protagonist is unique while logic would dictate hundred of other individuals could have fit the bill for proto-Windrunner. It goes back to the Chosen One trope where a special someone is chosen for greatness which inspires many readers because it calls to our inner desire to be deemed "unique" and "special", but I have somehow started to prefer other arcs where the characters has to work harder to achieve his power level. It is why "Adolin revives his Blade" is such a compelling arc, because it doesn't involve him being "special" nor "chosen", but it involves him being "determined" and "hard working" before those powers manifest themselves.

I also agree one of Kaladin's problems is the fact he is basically a God: he can single-handily defeat every single foes put in front of him and not even break a sweat. It makes sense he would defeat Szeth, even if the new ending feels like cheating and misplaced honor. The problem isn't Szeth's demise, it is the fact he wasn't replaced by a greater opponent... and also the fact nobody truly thought for one second Kaladin wouldn't win. I didn't get the feel the fight was hard or difficult or dramatic: I got that feel during the 4 on 1 duel and during the Adolin/Szeth encounters, but I just do not get it in this over-powered fight in the air. This being said, I do not know what could have been changed to make it more... emotional.

De-powering a protagonist works within a main narrative if the readers end up fearing he may never get his powers back or if, his de-powered bout, serves to have him learn new lessons. The problem with Kaladin's de-powered bout is it wasn't long enough, he didn't learn anything out of it, it didn't serve to have him use other skills to succeed, it didn't feature him having win differently, it just served to make him more miserable, to hit him with the trauma stick only in an attempt to make him gain his powers back a more worthy moment. While it worked for several readers, but it didn't work out for me. I didn't get why this arc was needed within the story: it felt superfluous and unnecessary. As you say, it defines rational writing because it is obvious the plot only happened because the author wanted to show us you could kill your spren and then revive it. He also wanted to add drama within the story, but failed at building the gradation and fear of impending doom we had prior to the 4 on 1 duel, so he used the oldest trick in the world: he injured the character and had him realize the "truth" as he lay bleeding to his death... It was just too much for me, I almost rolled my eyes. The trauma stick is effective when used to open-up the eyes of the character, but here it serves no purpose. Kaladin doesn't have his great moment of clarity because he was injured, he had it because he watched others trying to murder the king: seeing it is what made him change his mind. The injury had nothing to do with it. A good trauma stick would be if Adolin gets injured and it serves as mean to stir emotions hard enough within Dalinar for him to finally forgive his son: this would work because it'd have a purpose. Injuring a character can be an effective plot: it can serve as a temporary de-powered moment or it can serve as a breaking point within the narrative, but to injure just to make more miserable tend not to work as well. Kaladin having his leg being injured in the chasm works because it serves to keep him behind when they all leave: it had a purpose.

I also agree the level of contrivances towards the end of WoR was annoying: the one-liner were eye-rolling. Little wonder I prefer Adolin's POV: it is completely devoid of contrivance and he doesn't do one liner.

I personally do not want to read a beat down to humility for Kaladin because I am tired of reading him being beaten down. It has been used too often with his character, so it isn't effective anymore. What I want is to read Kaladin setting himself to save XYZ, to get there thinking he'd be the one-liner hero only to find out he was beaten to the task by someone else. This would be terribly satisfying.

On 8/27/2016 at 5:32 AM, sheep said:

We're all horribly biased.  I have a personal dislike of characters who know important things but don't do anything about it, like you dislike secretive characters.  I feel that having important facts and taking no action can be as stupid as doing stupid things directly, and I have no patience for secretive personal "issues" being an excuse for such behaviour when these issues are so lightly touched upon that they sound more like informed excuses rather than a solid reason.  We all dislike that flakey friend who sends you a text message saying "sorry didn't feel like coming today" when "I'm getting a new kidney" is so much better.  

That's why Renarin and Wit annoy me. 

 

I dislike character who withhold information for foolish fears or characters who victimize themselves constantly. I dislike when characters decide the reason for their failure is something completely out of their control, de-facto implying there is nothing they can do to change things. I dislike when such characters receive horde of pity for their failure when I believe pity should be given to those who actually tried, but failed. 

I prefer characters who see a problem then set themselves to fix it, even if they can't be sure it'll work out. I prefer characters who speak out and I am tired of authors always using the "I do not talk to anyone because I am so secretive and it is hard for me to speak up because of my tortured past" as a source of conflict while completely disregarding the conflicts which could arise with the opposite behavior, meaning blurting out too much information to the wrong persons. I am also tired introspective characters being always considered more interesting because they have "secrets". 

 

 

 

 

[Argent]

On 8/27/2016 at 4:32 AM, sheep said:

I've always found it interesting how different people show their interest in the same book series.  We all find different things to enjoy in the Brandon-verse, from analysis and discussion to generating creative content, but somehow we're all here on the Shard.

The text that comes with the picture isn't super serious artist statement stuff.  It doesn't point out secret Satanic messages hidden in a 6x6 square of pixels in the corner.  The art can be viewed perfectly fine without text - I personally think art shouldn't require text for a viewer to get it, unless it's a comic strip or something.  I just type stuff for context, and to show where the designs come from Brandon and where they come from my imagination.

It's kind of like the production notes in the DVD extras of your favourite movie.  You don't need them, and other artists don't bother, but I like them, and that's why I make them.

I realize it's far from required, but I like seeing how text turns into visual art. I enjoy things more when I can glimpse the process behind the creation, and in the case of drawing characters and scenes from books, a part of the process is translating the textual description into a visual one.

[Argel]

On 8/28/2016 at 4:41 PM, maxal said:

I agree about your take on Alethi and their war culture: it may be defeat rimes with death which is why having a real rout solving itself into having very few survivors would be a hard one to carry on, for any commander, but it may be worst for Adolin.

 The obvious comparison is feudal Japan, but we don't have an equivalent to Samurai or the Code of Busihido on Roshar. If the culture was that heavy into death before dishonor, than Dalinar would have lost significant influence after the heavy losses when Sadeas tried to wipe him out. Sebarial pretty much proves the point -- paying fines to avoid combat would be intolerable in a death before dishonor type society. Vorin religion doesn't really match up either.

The Alethi culture is feudal Europe with hints of feudal Japan.

Either of you played the Legend of the Five Rings pencil and paper role-playing game?  Or read Shogun?

[maxal]

21 hours ago, Argel said:

 The obvious comparison is feudal Japan, but we don't have an equivalent to Samurai or the Code of Busihido on Roshar. If the culture was that heavy into death before dishonor, than Dalinar would have lost significant influence after the heavy losses when Sadeas tried to wipe him out. Sebarial pretty much proves the point -- paying fines to avoid combat would be intolerable in a death before dishonor type society. Vorin religion doesn't really match up either.

The Alethi culture is feudal Europe with hints of feudal Japan.

Either of you played the Legend of the Five Rings pencil and paper role-playing game?  Or read Shogun?

I am afraid I am not familiar with either...  but I had been wondering how Adolin would react to a complete defeat, under his command. Though I'd, say Sebrarial is dismissed and despised by all of the other Highprinces for his lack of involvement within the war. He doesn't care because he knows he is building something more solid, but they aren't seeing him as a threat.

[Argel]

2 hours ago, maxal said:

Though I'd, say Sebrarial is dismissed and despised by all of the other Highprinces for his lack of involvement within the war.

What he cares about is irrelevant. In a true death-before-dishonor society Sebarial would never have even made it to high prince (rough equivalent to a daimyo). 

You should check out Shogun for a crash course on feudal Japan. It has a couple nitpicks, like even mentioning ninjas and using hari kari instead of seppuku, but overall packs the most info about Japan's culture into a book than anything else out there.  

https://www.amazon.com/Shogun-Asian-Saga-Book-1-ebook/dp/B002UBRFDC/ref=tmm_kin_swatch_0?_encoding=UTF8&qid=&sr=#nav-subnav

[sheep]

On 27/08/2016 at 7:44 PM, Darkness Ascendant said:

You cosplay as well......holy storms your amazing

There are some older cosplay pictures on the second page of this thread, including a Shardblade made of foam, hot glue and plaster.  The blade length is only around 1m long, so definitely not to scale.  

 

 

On 28/08/2016 at 6:54 AM, Rasarr said:

@sheep, that's some awesome art! I absolutely adore your design of Iyatil's mask, and the colour in both the poster and - especially - the slaver wagon piece is just stunning. And the details in the "training day" pic cracked me up; especially Shallan's smile  For some reason, I've always imagined the ghostblood symbol to look more along the lines of this:

but you're right, we don't really have a good description - and my vision doesn't lend itself to character portraits, really. 

My personal quest to figure out Urithiru continues! Yeah, the problem with the building is that it's so ridiculously huge, it's kind of hard to imagine it in the context of fantasy series. Either those terraces are ridiculously tiny, are partly hidden under the next level, or the building's base is unreasonably wide. So we have to think less cups and more wide bowls. Regardless, from a distance it would probably look something like a fat unicorn horn - even if the topmost level is only a tiny round chamber of 1 m radius, it would still make the ground level have a radius half again that of Burj Khalifa's (itself roughly twice the height of Urithiru).

That tall triangle over Burj Khalifa is supposed to be Urithiru. 

Hope my musings are even moderately helpful.

I drew the details of Iyatil's mask to look like it was made of layered sections, like the overlapping wings of a dragonfly.  The official book description said it resembled a carapace, so in reality it's probably more smooth and flat like a turtle or a beetle shell.  But that doesn't look as cool.

The Ghostbloods logo can be pretty much anything if the vague description of "three diamonds" is all there is to go on.  You can throw them together in a surprising variety of designs that may or may not resemble modern Earth corporate logos.

Ghostblood Logos

Spoiler

I went back and forth between "cups up" and "cups down" before settling on the "up" positioning of the terraces.  The up position means that the tower doesn't have to look so disproportionately huge and squat, and advertising posters are supposed to show off buildings as looking impressive and imposing.  A fat unicorn horn just doesn't look cool when typical posters that I was trying to copy tend to show grand deco buildings like the Chrysler building or the Empire State.  It's interesting that the infographic you posted had Taipei 101 as one of the example buildings.  I actually looked at images of that same building to draw the Urithiru poster, and pictures of Chinese pagoda architecture too.  They all have stacks of upward curved roofs and it gives an exotic look.  

Urithiru Concept

Spoiler

You gotta hand it to those ancient architects.  They must have fabrial segways or something to cross from one side of the ground floor to the other.

 

 

On 28/08/2016 at 10:24 AM, CarolaDavar said:

So. . . Ghostbloods The band, eh? What about. . . Bridge four the band!(I challenge you to draw that. But I won't force you.)"and then KAladin flew down from the sky, weilding. . . Was that a. . . Shardguitar?" 

Music is a feminine art in Vorinism, so most men (especially bridgement) would not have the inclination or leisure to learn how to play an instrument.  I don't think the Bridge Four band would be very good to listen to.  They're the kind of band that gets peanuts thrown at them at open mic night.

Scroll all the way down to see it.

 

 

On 30/08/2016 at 1:36 PM, Argel said:

 The obvious comparison is feudal Japan, but we don't have an equivalent to Samurai or the Code of Busihido on Roshar. If the culture was that heavy into death before dishonor, than Dalinar would have lost significant influence after the heavy losses when Sadeas tried to wipe him out. Sebarial pretty much proves the point -- paying fines to avoid combat would be intolerable in a death before dishonor type society. Vorin religion doesn't really match up either.

The Alethi culture is feudal Europe with hints of feudal Japan.

Either of you played the Legend of the Five Rings pencil and paper role-playing game?  Or read Shogun?

I have read Shogun before (and played Total War: Shogun), and know a little bit about feudal Japan and pre-gunpowder and Early Modern history, and my conclusion is that Alethi culture isn't any one culture, or even two cultures from IRL Earth, but influenced by many in small ways.  Generals or battallionlords of highprinces haven't been pressured into killing themselves if they are beaten to the chrysalis by the Parshendi.  Lighteyed nobles don't slap each other with gloves and aim to kill when they demand satisfaction.  Whilst they value honour enough to fight about it, as Adolin does, they don't go to the death, unless they are compelled by the King.  So the real question is: do Alethi value honour, or the appearance of having honour?   I think that is the difference between Dalinar and the Knights of old and the modern Alethi.

It's also interesting to note that in IRL history, people fought in pistol duels well into the 1800's when their honour was insulted.  It looks like Alethi mostly choose pragmatism over honour, or at least the top ranking lighteyes with something to lose.  I doubt they buy into the Tranquiline Halls/Rosharan Valhalla business either.

 

Quote

“Alas,” Rock said, pulling a tuft of moss off the wall, inspecting it as they walked. “Your insult has offended me. If we were at the Peaks, we would have to duel in the traditional alil’tiki’i fashion.”
“Which is what?” Teft asked. “With spears?”
Rock laughed. “No, no. We upon the Peaks are not barbarians like you down here.”
“How then?” Kaladin asked, genuinely curious.
“Well,” Rock said, dropping the moss and dusting off his hands, “is involving much mudbeer and singing.”
“How’s that a duel?”
“He who can still sing after the most drinks is winner. Plus, soon, everyone is so drunk that they probably forget what argument was about.”
Teft laughed. “Beats knives at dawn, I suppose.”

Chapter 27, "Chasm Duty", Way of Kings

So darkeyed Alethis also follow some sort of honour code system where arguments are settled by physical confrontation.  I wouldn't say that Alethi values mirror the Japanese honour codes, but they don't resemble feudal (pre 1400's) Europe 1:1 either.  In a real feudal situation, brightlords like Amaram would not be so blasé about throwing kids recruited from his fiefdom into the frontlines as cannon fodder.  Large landholders made their incomes from rents, and products produced or grown on their land, and the whole feudal system tied the workers to the land with carrots and sticks -- rights and privileges for registered tenants, punishments for those who ran away and got caught.  An IRL medieval European Amaram would be resentful of his liegelord Sadeas for conscripting his untrained peasants rather than hiring mercenaries when his professional armsmen fell short of the levy.

I wrote a couple of boring mini-essays comparing Alethkar to medieval/early modern Earth European history, if people are interested in reading my thoughts.
I've always been more interested in the culture, history and economy aspects of worldbuilding in fiction than theories about magic systems and faster-than-light travel.  For anyone who really enjoyed Shogun, there's a political fantasy version written by Raymond Feist and Janny Wurts called "Daughter of the Empire" with a "death before dishonour" society that is way more intense than Alethkar's.  They even have a fantasy version of ronin.

 

 

On 29/08/2016 at 6:41 AM, maxal said:

That's an interesting explanation: I never thought it in such terms but then again, my drawing skills are currently limited to stick figures  I wouldn't know the first thing about anything more complex than a toy car and even then... My 3 years old once ask if daddy could draw it because mommy didn't do it right  I have other talents though 

The first panels in my process pictures are always rough outlines in basic blocks and simple shapes not that far from stick figures.  Learning to draw means being able to see things in front of you and around you, take them apart in your mind, and then put them back together adding colour and detail until you get a finished picture.  People look at the finished picture and think it's too hard, too complex for them to do something similar.  But the first step, and the basis to creating art, is not hard, technical skill-wise.  You need to train your mind, and that is done through endless repetition and observation.  That's the hard part.

If AU Adolin ever ends up in a management job where appearance and reputation matter a lot, would he wear fake glasses?  Or would it go too much toward making him look intelligent?  He avoids being a know-it-all in front of people, but Adolin has always had a problem with people underestimating his abilities.  Glasses help with the perception.  But fashionable glasses.  

 

On 29/08/2016 at 6:41 AM, maxal said:

I don't typically bother with authors personal life unless they really are chull heads. I wouldn't have bothered with Brandon either if he hadn't be so communicative to begin with. It is why I say it has both good and bad side. Of course, the good side easily trumps the bad side, but it does get several readers to create themselves expectations. Obviously the author cannot be fault for this: he doesn't create those expectations, he is just being very generous and kind. I also think he does enjoy speaking with his readership from times to times: he also doesn't do it often enough to truly impact his writing pace. I absolutely agree it is a mindset thing: you see others getting an answer they have been yearning to have or you see the author speaking to the fandom of a given character specifically and you wonder why he does not do it for questions/characters you are interested in.

Personally, I'm a bit conflicted about the existence of WoB's.  They are great because you can clarify things that you didn't understand from the books, and get some extra tidbits of information to fill in the months and years between book releases, but it makes a division between people who are extremely well-informed and the more casual readers who only read the book and don't bother with the "extra experience" from participation in the fan community.  Only a limited amount of people get to see Brandon in person to ask questions, and not all the questions get posted somewhere that is easily accessible and searchable (the official Theoryland website is out of date and the search function for 17S can be inconvenient to use when it puts a time limit between searches) so most of the information is  concentrated within a small pool of people.  I am not complaining about Brandon answering questions, but I do wish that new worldbuilding material not from the official Cosmere books was put in a separate book like the Pocket Companion or a "Worldhopper's Guide to the Cosmere" in a way that was accessible to everyone and not exclusive to small groups of people.  I would pay money for that.  I don't mean to sound salty, but it's a good reason why many authors don't do Q&A's as often as Brandon (then again, few authors have huge series in one universe).  And informal interview answers (JK Rowling's, for example) have a tendency to ruffle feathers if they happen to be on fan-divisive subjects.

You can't make everyone like you, and you can't be friends with everyone.  That is why trying to be friends with everyone you meet is unnecessary - it doesn't mean you have to be rude, but if you find that your personality is incompatible with someone else's, it doesn't mean that there is something wrong with you, and you don't have to feel bad about it. Sometimes relationships stay at an acquaintance level rather than being true battleforged friends, and that's okay.  If it upsets you because not being able to form a meaningful friendship on a level of true empathy and understanding with everyone you meet feels like a rejection, you need to chill out.  I would not say that I am as much of an extrovert as you are, and I do enjoy company, but I value most of all the true friendships I have among a very few people.  They are the ones you work to maintain, but forming them is organic.  It just happens, when you "click".  Or whatever they call it these days.  The lesson is to not take things so personally.  You will be happier that way.  And downvotes will slide away from notice like tears in the rain.  

That was unexpectedly poetic.

 

On 29/08/2016 at 6:41 AM, maxal said:

Dalinar states, early in WoK, it may be one of Adolin's weaknesses: his familiarity with the men, his tendency to befriend them, to get to know them... In other words, he is getting too close which is why, when they die, it hurts him. A good battle field commander cannot have friends within the soldiers, he cannot laugh with the water boys, he cannot have happy jibs with the spearmen because he knows he may have to send them to their death later on. Adolin is just too sensitive and I think, it will eventually get to him. He's a good tactician, but either he emotionally disconnects himself completely from his men or he breaks down when they start to die in masses when the Desolation hits.

For someone who is described as so extroverted, Adolin has remarkably few friends, real or fake.  He courts girls for two weeks before getting dumped, and doesn't really have a chance to get to know them.  He drinks wine with fellow lighteyes, but they only hang around because his family is rich and influential.  He mentions feeling sad when Kholin soldiers die during the chasmfiend hunt, and after the Tower happened and the Cobalt Guard got decimated.  For someone who cares so much about his friends and former bodyguards, it was disappointing that his friendships were more informed than apparent on-screen, since it was just one passing line about how he missed them.  And even in WoK, there was barely any interaction.  Adolin doesn't go out to the pub like Kaladin.  He spends most of WoK and WoR with his family taking care of family problems.  

You may dislike this alternative character interpretation, but maybe Adolin is less extroverted than you think.  If he valued friendships so much, it seems strange that out of all the "friends" he has or had in the series, he confides his troubles with his Shardblade more than anyone else.  I know that you have disagreements with Brandon saying that Adolin is less complex a character than the rest of the cast, but the fact that a lot of his personality traits are informed sort of matches up to his role as a supporting character rather than a main protagonist.  His insecurity issues with girls are never explained since the dumping happens off-screen, and played for humour.  If it really mattered for characterisation rather than a contrived plot point that left him open to being set up with Shallan (see: trope), it would have been more than an off-hand mental note.

I do like Adolin as a character since he is purposefully written to be likeable, but from the beginning I had always picked up on the fact that he was the literary equivalent of an hors d'oeuvre and Kaladin was the entrée.

Out of his family members, Adolin seems closer to Navani as a parent figure than his actual father, who is his commanding officer.  He can talk about personal problems with Navani, like the Dalinar going crazy thing, and was familiar enough to warn her off seducing Dalinar because it looks bad.  It didn't work, but the attempt counts for something.  Compare his relationship to Renarin where he pressured his brother into taking Salinor's blade and Renarin never asked about the screaming in his head, even though Adolin is an internationally famous Blade expert that even rural, sheltered Shallan knew about.  Compare his relationship to Jasnah where he was more interested in flirting with Shallan instead of being worried that someone just killed his cousin and his other cousin Elhokar was almost assassinated the previous day.

Is it a cultural thing, or do Alethis just have their priorities out of whack?

 

On 29/08/2016 at 6:41 AM, maxal said:

Malta initially gets into a relationship with Reyn merely because he was fawning over her, giving her gifts and everything. She never had the intention to marry him, not at first. She doesn't start to love until much later in the story and the way she morphs from the bratty selfish spoiled girl to a determined woman truly was compelling, especially since her story arc was devoid of Hobb typical hopelessness. 

Malta growing up and turning out to be a genuinely good person was a immensely satisfying ending.  It made the contrast to how selfish and self-centred the dragons were, and they never got any better.  By the end of the Rain Wilds series, I started hating all the dragons and it would have been unbearable if the human characters were as terrible.  Malta as the sane voice of reason is something I never expected in the first Liveship book.  Oh, and by the way, the third trilogy has some "pat the dog" moments when Fitz gets recognised for his service in a most satisfying way.  Life still manages to screw him over, but at least he gets one good thing.  And by that time in the timeline, he is an old man with wisdom not to be as stupid as he was as a young man, and he has a magic combination that makes him more powerful than almost everyone.  I'm still waiting on the third book because the second book ends with the worst cliffhanger.

I could see Shallan/Renarin being a thing if the author had wanted to go that way.  It wouldn't have been the instant attraction of "he's hot/she's hot" that Shallan/Adolin had, but Renarin has hidden depths and Shallan could have been the one to help him reveal it to the world after telling him to stop moping and get on with his life, the way she did to Kaladin.  It would have taken more work to get it to happen in a feasible way, using a contrived Chasm Scene/Stuck in the Elevator situation, but it could have happened.  Honestly, I care more about an author developing a relationship in a meaningful and thoughtful way rather than disregarding predictable plotlines.  I don't care if Designated Protagonist gets together with Strong Female Lead as long as it's well done and not a series of sappy coincidences that YA and Harlequin romances are filled with.

Movie HP and Book HP are two completely different things, you must remember!  The movie was written and directed by a bunch of different people, so of course characters are inconsistent from movie to movie and lack the development of the book counterparts.  And HP is a series that doesn't have the meticulous and almost scientific worldbuilding that Sanderson and other newer fantasy authors have with all their research on axial tilt.  It doesn't hold up if you look too deep into it.  It seems super weird that most people got together with someone in their Hogwarts year group.  But according to Rowling, the Wizarding World of the UK is only 10k people, and marrying a Muggle is awkward since they have the Statute of Secrecy stuff (the reason why Harry got into so much trouble for doing magic outside of school).  And in-canon, Lily and James Potter got married and had Harry when they were 20 years old, pretty much straight out of school.  There are a lot of things I don't understand about HP, and it would only ruin my enjoyment if I thought too much about it.

My favourite horse books as a kid were The Black Stallion (1941) and Misty of Chincoteague (1947).  They're the type of old-fashioned wholesome classics with children whose parents let them run around in the woods with pocket knives and pellet guns, as long as they're home in time for dinner.  A lot of newer YA novels set on IRL Earth don't have that.  It's always disenfranchised foster home runaway teens and secret government child soldiers these days.

 

On 29/08/2016 at 6:41 AM, maxal said:

also agree one of Kaladin's problems is the fact he is basically a God: he can single-handily defeat every single foes put in front of him and not even break a sweat. It makes sense he would defeat Szeth, even if the new ending feels like cheating and misplaced honor. The problem isn't Szeth's demise, it is the fact he wasn't replaced by a greater opponent... and also the fact nobody truly thought for one second Kaladin wouldn't win. I didn't get the feel the fight was hard or difficult or dramatic: I got that feel during the 4 on 1 duel and during the Adolin/Szeth encounters, but I just do not get it in this over-powered fight in the air. This being said, I do not know what could have been changed to make it more... emotional.

I think we could rant on and on about Kaladin for days, for various reasons.  But hate the player, not the game.  You have to admit that Kaladin, due to choices he made and freak incidents of circumstance, is in the thick of the action most of the time, and the plot moves forward because of the things he does.  He may be the irritating Boy who Lived that even the storms couldn't kill, Chosen by Destiny to potentially be the Champion everyone was hoping for, but without him SA would be closer to a political fantasy with secret society after secret society all planning in circles.  I don't know if you have read political intrigue fiction within the genre of fantasy, sci-fi, or historical fiction, but unless they are paced very well, they can get pretty boring until the inevitable Plot Avalanche bit happens.  Without Kaladin, WoK would be even more tedious to new readers than it is already - just go on Goodreads and read those low star reviews on people complaining how long the buildup took.

The problem with Kaladin, in my eyes at least, comes down to how he is a pawn of the author and all the good and bad things thrown at him in his life were all contrived plot points to put him at the right place at the right time rather than an organic movement from Plot Point A to Plot Point B.  

 

Quote

“Give me a reason why he doesn’t!” Kaladin yelled, uncaring if the ardents heard. “It might not be his fault, and he might be trying, but he’s still failing.”
Silence.
“It’s right to remove the wounded limb,” Kaladin whispered. “This is what we have to do. To . . . To . . .”
To stay alive.
Where had those words come from?
Gotta do what you can to stay alive, son. Turn a liability into an advantage whenever you can.
Tien’s death.
Chapter 81, "The Last Day", Words of Radiance

Where had those words come from?  Convenient how this one sentence from five years ago conveniently pops up at the right place for Kaladin to save the day.

 

Quote

Kaladin narrowed his eyes, watching that Stormlight rise. It was raw power. No. “Power” was the wrong term. It was a force, like the Surges that ruled the universe. They made fire burn, made rocks fall, made light glow. These wisps, they were the Surges reduced to some primal form.
He could use it. Use it to . . .
For a moment, Kaladin thought he saw shadows of a world that was not, shadows of another place. And in that place, a distant sky with a sun enclosed, almost as if by a corridor of clouds.
There.
He made the direction of the wall become down.
Chapter 41, "Scars", Words of Radiance

"There", and that's all it takes.  Well, that's convenient.

For a plot-driven story, this author contrived convenience serves to move the plot along, because otherwise WoR would be 1800 pages long and we'd have to slog through more chapters of Kaladin moping along.  But it annoys me and confirms in my mind that Kaladin has plot privileges and that any time he gets into a pickle, he will get out of it at the right time and right place after he has gotten the mandatory morality lesson.  The hero rises triumphant yet again, and I don't feel any sense of tension because I know he will be thrown an Awesome Moment in the Plot Avalanche.  

In these times where I get annoyed, my solution is to read other books.  Instead of over-dwelling on what I dislike, why not read things that I like?  Because I did not like the revised ending with Szeth's fight in WoR.  Brandon corrected it because he thought it was out of character for Kaladin to do what he did, but in my reading, I thought the new version was more OOC.  It didn't matter in the end because of you know what, but I'm still hung up about it.

 

Quote

“I want to beat that assassin,” Kaladin said, surprised by how vehemently he felt it.
“Why?”
“Because it’s my job to protect Dalinar ... that assassin deserves to die.”
Chapter 41, "Scars", Words of Radiance

 

Quote

“You sent him to the sky to die, assassin,” Kaladin said, Stormlight puffing from his lips, “but the sky and the winds are mine. I claim them, as I now claim your life.”
Chapter 85, "Swallowed by the Sky", Words of Radiance.

Acting OOC to further the plot is one of the no-no's of rational fiction.  I didn't think the scene was as awesome as everyone else thought it was.  I thought it was kind of sad.  Szeth came to a realisation that the Knights Radiant were back and his whole life as Truthless was a lie as he was dying.  If you know something of stage operas, one thing they like doing is sing a melodramatic sad song while they die, and when they finish the last note, they drop dead.  That's how contrived I thought the ending of WoR was, with You Know Who at the right place at the right time to rescue Szeth before he became completely braindead.

Maybe I'm too picky because I'm complaining about fantasy fiction being unrealistic.  I don't mind fantasy elements in fantasy.  It's just a personal preference for characters and the invisible hand of author-involvement to be more consistent, and if foreshadowing and Chekhov's Guns are around, they could be a bit more subtle.  And with Kaladin as a character, he is anything but subtle.  

 

 

I dislike when the readers know the answer to the mystery that the Multi-POV cast haven't figured out yet because they didn't bother to talk to one another and compare notes.  It's justifiable and acceptable if everyone is questing all over the continent, but if magic mirrors, scrying glasses, and Magic Telephones exist in the universe, I'd be tearing my hair out in frustration.  I dislike withholding information for stupid reasons also.  I dislike zombie stories for this reason, because there is always, ALWAYS, going to be someone who gets bitten and hides it from the rest of the group until it's too late.   Especially when everyone knows there's no cure, and the consequence of a bite is ALWAYS turning zombie.

I don't actually mind introspective characters, as long as they are well-written.  The better written ones tend to be self-aware and I can better understand how they make decisions, act, and react within the plot, even though I might not personally agree with their values or ethics.  On the other hand, I don't think being an extrovert makes a character automatically more interesting, solely because of their rarity value.  In one series I read, there was an extrovert character whose character flaw was that she liked people and attention too much and it always got her into trouble because she was a wanted criminal.  It was a part of her personality like Kaladin's depression, and she couldn't change it, so it always led to her cover getting blown just when she thought she was safe.  I can't re-read it because of how much frustration I remember feeling in certain parts pretty much the whole series.
For the curious, the series is "Bloody Jack" by LA Meyer.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

---

Art time

 

 

Thaylen fashion folio page

Spoiler

Inspired by Dan dos Santos' fashion pages from WoR.  In the story, his name is Dandos Oilsworn and he is the dead artist whose book Shallan read as a kid.  Shallan brags to Jasnah in WoK that he was her art instructor.

Thaylens are island people travelling merchants.  The ships' sails are modelled after Chinese junks.  I thought that it would fit the Rosharan setting better than a full-rigged ship of the European colonial age.  Roshar only has one super continent, so ships can get around just hugging the coastline.  Full-rigged and classic European square-rigged vessels were built for exploring and travelling months over open ocean from continent to continent.  Rosharan ships in contrast only go from harbour to harbour and stay in port during highstorms.  So as much as I like the beautiful sail arrangements of the Cutty Sark or the Horst Wessel, Kharbranth and Thaylenah are more likely to be filled with simple three sail junks.

 

 

AU Buddies poster

Spoiler

I don't have any good reason for drawing this other than not wanting to draw yet another uniform.  Adolin wears nothing but uniform because DA CODES.  Kaladin wears nothing but uniform because he doesn't own any other clothes.  In a modern AU, everyone gets to wear street clothes.

Shallan is so small.  Proportions-wise, I try to keep things consistent from picture to picture, so everyone follows canon description but everything still fits on the page.  So I draw Kaladin at around 6'5" (195cm), Shallan at 5'6" (168cm) and Adolin at 6'1" (185cm).   Of course, only Shallan's height was explicitly given, and I'm not sure if a Rosharan foot is the same size as an Earth foot, since their years and seasons aren't the same as ours.  It's as weird as the historical cubit measurement which is the length of a forearm, or hands for measuring horses.

 

 

Multiverse Crossover: Science Fiction Edition
Renarin, Kaladin, Adolin

Spoiler

I honestly think it's kind of silly when people finish reading the most recently released Cosmere book and think there's nothing else good to read.  There are plenty of other books out there with great lore and worldbuilding and twist endings.  And sometimes they are standalone novels, which is refreshing when you can wrap up a storyline in one go and not have to be anxious about waiting for the next book in the series to come out.  Brandon is good with release deadlines, but other authors are not.  So standalone single stories are definitely satisfying in comparison.

 

Renarin as Paul Atreides
Dune
"Teenage boy inherits title after his father is killed in a betrayal planned by a rival house.  He develops magical powers to mathematically predict the future in order to save the world."

Sounds familiar, doesn't it?
In-canon, the Atreides are descended from Greeks and living on a desert planet makes everyone tanned, and some people get magic blue eyes.
Genre - space opera

Detail

Spoiler

Kaladin as Hiro Protagonist
Snow Crash
"World's greatest fighter has a menial and stressful day job with an unpleasant boss.  He also does cool things to save the world."

Hiro's boring job is delivering pizza, but failure at getting it to the customer in under 30 minutes is as fatal as a failure during a bridge run.  And his name is actually Hiro Protagonist, seriously.  In-canon he is half Japanese, half African-American.
Genre - dystopian cyberpunk

Detail

Spoiler

 

Adolin as Johnny Rico
Starship Troopers
"Wealthy young man and his father fight giant bugs in powered armour.  They also want to save the world.  Would you like to know more?"

Powered armour is the science fiction version of Shardplate, and giant alien bugs is the scifi version of non-human species with odd cultural habits and valuable resources worth taking.  Starship Troopers is also the mother of Space Marine stories.  When Shardbearers start worldhopping in the future of the Cosmere, they will be magical Space Marines.  
Genre - military sci-fi

Detail

Spoiler

In-canon, Johnny Rico is Filipino.  In the movie adaptation, Johnny is a blond-haired, blue-eyed Argentine, and the powered armour is really lame and definitely not a robot suit the way book described it.

I kinda wanted all the crossovers to match with story and character appearance as much as I could.  That's why there's no Shallan; there really aren't that many classic sci-fi stories with red-headed female leads that are more exposition than action.

I really like drawing costume designs.  So if you have read the books, and think the aesthetic I tried to capture for each image is on point, then I have succeeded.  If you haven't read the books, they are generally well-regarded as staples of their subgenres, if you are into science fiction.  They are not YA novels, so be warned.

 

 

Bridge Four Garage Band
Kaladin on flute, vocals by Shen the parshman, with Lopen playing the triangle.  

Spoiler

It's kind of ambiguous whether or not this is an AU, since they're all in Kholin army uniforms, and the timeline is all sorts of messed up since this is a Parshman form Parshendi rather than the Warform that Rlain gets later on in WoR.  Suspend your disbelief in the name of humour.

 

My Favourite Villains
Jakamav, Amaram, Taravangian, Tyn

Spoiler

Rough concept sketches because I just love all their costume designs.  Everyone has a distinct look and I chose certain details and elements that I thought fit their character, and it's just so much fun to do them instead of the same Kholin Army uniforms over and over.

If you've ever watched Hong Kong kungfu movies set in historical periods, there's a contrast between the traditional characters who wear the loose shirts and pyjama-like pants and slippers of native clothing, and the wealthy "modern" characters who wear Western suits and gowns.  They're all Chinese, but the people in Western three piece suits want to show that they represent "enlightenment" and "progress" and "modernness".

 

Some cosplay props

Spoiler

A quiver with fake arrows.  Just wooden sticks with foam fletching.  They stay glued inside the quiver so they don't knock about, so there's no point in making arrow heads for them.

 

Spoiler

And a real arrow being made.  It's a wooden dowel from the craft store painted green.  With some foam pieces that are painted and hot glued on later.  Props are a big part of doing cosplays, and it's an easy way to elevate a cool costume to an awesome one.  If you cosplay a character that normally carries something or has some sort of accessory in-canon, and you don't make it, you run the risk of looking like you're missing something.  It just means you have to be careful about what characters you choose to do, because some things are just way beyond budget or skill-level for many people.  Usually these are things that involve electronics and wiring for moving parts that light up or glow, or expensive materials like thermoplastics for sci-fi style guns and armour.

And if you make these cool props, people at conventions always ask to hold them or touch them so their friends can take photos, and children can get grabby.  The response most of the time is a big "NO" because these things are a work of love, held together by hot glue, duct tape, sweat, and tears.

 

 

Obligatory Silly Stuff

SA AU: Kaladin and Adolin at the gym
"If you can lift a bridge, you can lift a dumbbell"

Spoiler

That headband.

 

Late post because I've recently been too busy and tired to have much time for recreational art.

Edited September 11, 2016 by sheep
formatting

[Djarskublar]

Nice art. Better than your usual fare, which is solid. Have an upvote.

I disagree that Kaladin was OOC there. He wanted to protect Dalinar. That extends to wanting to kill the only real threat to him. Sadeas has nothing on the Blackthorn in full force. Trickery like the Tower is the only way to beat Dalinar. That or send your Truthless assassin. Szeth was the only real and immediate danger to Dalinar at that point. Kaladin owes him a blood debt of one Shardblade. That was also the point in time where he was considering helping Moash with the plot. He was a lot... angrier at the time. I don't think it was off of him to say/think those things. 

Another thing people complain about with Kaladin is how quickly he ramps up his power. They compare him to Shallan and Jasnah, who, while highly intelligent, don't really practice their power as much. Ivory has apparently been preventing Jasnah from going fully into the CR as she has wanted for years. She is a highly proficient soulcaster, but she is honestly afraid of her power. Ditto for Shallan. The fear is preventing Shallan from progressing in the use of her Soulcasting ability. Her Lightweaving improves in leaps and bounds, but nobody bats an eye. That happened over the course of a few weeks. Kaladin knew of his powers for months and practiced their use with his crew for a fair portion of that. They experimented with his abilities a lot more than the women. He then spent hours practicing lashing himself to acquire a power he knew he could use. That is quite different from Shallan wondering about the limits of Lightweaving. The Radiants all appear to instinctively use their abilities at some point, and the scene you mention is where Kal figured it out. Shallan instinctively soulcast the vase, and Jasnah jumped into the CR at the feast flashback.

I see no reason the things Kaladin did were implausible or OOC. Convenient? Sometimes. Awesome? Usually.

The disadvantaged duel is my favorite action sequence from any medium or genre. Ignoring pithy one-liners because they are irrelevant to action, he jump kicked Plate hard enough to crack it! Kal isn't my favorite character, but he is awesome.

[Rasarr]

The moment I saw the garage band image, I've been chuckling  For maximum being-pelted-with-fruits value, I nominate Rock to play bagpipes. The horror! 

On another note, that's yet another post full of great art. Adolin's expressions are comedy gold, but gah, the headband! The headband continues to be a fatal fashion accessory for Kaladin, as far as I'm concerned. 

With Urithiru, I suspect my "fat unicorn horn" concept is incorrect, mostly because of what you've noted - it doesn't look all that aesthetically pleasing, all things considered. I suspect the terraces might be partially, or even mostly hidden beneath the upper floor's ceiling, which would make the entire thing slightly less pyramid-like. Still, a helluva achievement for Roshar-level society. Makes me wonder how many generations of Radiants were involved in making the thing, or if it was something the Heralds or even Tanavast & Cultivation themselves constructed. 

I admit I'm going to disagree with you as to Kaladin, mostly for the same reasons Djarskublar stated. To each their own, I suppose, but I find him neither annoying nor implausible. 

[Darkness Ascendant]

I really like how you made the last one, It's a photo which you drew on right? Anyway, it works really well.
Also, do you use a grunge filter? Looks like you use one for textures

[maxal]

6 hours ago, sheep said:

If AU Adolin ever ends up in a management job where appearance and reputation matter a lot, would he wear fake glasses?  Or would it go too much toward making him look intelligent?  He avoids being a know-it-all in front of people, but Adolin has always had a problem with people underestimating his abilities.  Glasses help with the perception.  But fashionable glasses.  

One of my pet peeves is Adolin actually needs glasses... He can't read glyphs which are made of tiny lines on small pieces of paper held from afar. He can't even tell if they are numbers or words or how many glyphs there are. Obviously, he has had training which makes it dubious he would be so poor at such basic skills. My pet peeve has thus be Adolin sucks at glyphs reading because he can't see them properly... I mean there are several eye sight issues which would go completely unnoticed in a world where reading on boards isn't required, but would cause issue for tiny glyphs reading.

Hence, Adolin does have glasses, but he wears contacts most of the time. The glasses is for when his eyes are tired. At school, he of course prefer to not see the board or have his eyes hurt than to wear the actual glasses. I love Adolin with glasses. It would be awesome if the big badass Shardbearer, Alethkar most skilled duelist actually needed glasses, just like his kid brother, even more so now Renarin got rid of his. The reversing here would be so delicious it hurts to know the author won't go there.

 

6 hours ago, sheep said:

Personally, I'm a bit conflicted about the existence of WoB's.  They are great because you can clarify things that you didn't understand from the books, and get some extra tidbits of information to fill in the months and years between book releases, but it makes a division between people who are extremely well-informed and the more casual readers who only read the book and don't bother with the "extra experience" from participation in the fan community.  Only a limited amount of people get to see Brandon in person to ask questions, and not all the questions get posted somewhere that is easily accessible and searchable (the official Theoryland website is out of date and the search function for 17S can be inconvenient to use when it puts a time limit between searches) so most of the information is  concentrated within a small pool of people.  I am not complaining about Brandon answering questions, but I do wish that new worldbuilding material not from the official Cosmere books was put in a separate book like the Pocket Companion or a "Worldhopper's Guide to the Cosmere" in a way that was accessible to everyone and not exclusive to small groups of people.  I would pay money for that.  I don't mean to sound salty, but it's a good reason why many authors don't do Q&A's as often as Brandon (then again, few authors have huge series in one universe).  And informal interview answers (JK Rowling's, for example) have a tendency to ruffle feathers if they happen to be on fan-divisive subjects.

You can't make everyone like you, and you can't be friends with everyone.  That is why trying to be friends with everyone you meet is unnecessary - it doesn't mean you have to be rude, but if you find that your personality is incompatible with someone else's, it doesn't mean that there is something wrong with you, and you don't have to feel bad about it. Sometimes relationships stay at an acquaintance level rather than being true battleforged friends, and that's okay.  If it upsets you because not being able to form a meaningful friendship on a level of true empathy and understanding with everyone you meet feels like a rejection, you need to chill out.  I would not say that I am as much of an extrovert as you are, and I do enjoy company, but I value most of all the true friendships I have among a very few people.  They are the ones you work to maintain, but forming them is organic.  It just happens, when you "click".  Or whatever they call it these days.  The lesson is to not take things so personally.  You will be happier that way.  And downvotes will slide away from notice like tears in the rain.  

That was unexpectedly poetic.

WoB are treacherous and you need to read the interviews as they come out to keep up with them. There are no research tools available and if I once made the suggestions all should be dumped at the same location, but it was too complicated and too time consuming to manage. 

So true, it makes up for two levels of fans: the informed ones and the less informed ones, but typically nobody is being a chull about it. I do read all WoB, but I usually take note of those which interests me. I don't take note of those dealing with magics systems and the Cosmere as they do not interest me greatly. I have gotten good answers out of the questions I managed to punch through, but in the end it ends up being more or less the same. No, he won't write Adolin as a fully fleshed out character with a strong focus arc and no, it isn't because of the planning but more because he doesn't find him interesting enough for it. The Lift novella wasn't in the plan either, but we are getting it because Brandon finds Lift massively interesting. I wish he thought the same about Adolin.

I am one of those more or less friendless extroverted who discovered as she got older all of her relationships were so menial they didn't pass the test of time. Thus, I have come to rely to Internet to satisfy my need to communicate. The upside is it is easier to actually communicate as it negates several of my bad personal traits, the downside is it is just as cruel as real life. I have lost the count of the places where I have been literally thrown out for reasons unknown to me: likely I am to blame, but it isn't so obvious coming from my perspective. While you aren't supposed to read downvotes as "I don't like you", it is hard not to, not when you've spend a lifetime being told by others "we don't like you". Well, perhaps not in such a direct manner, but when you realize your friendships amount to nothing, it is hard not to take it personally. I don't try to develop lasting meaningful relationships with every single individual I meet, I merely want to have at least one friend since the ones I had all decided they had better things to do. It is great when you click with others, the problem is when life moves forward, you may not click anymore. Or you may have put more stock into the friendship than the other person or the other person may end up feeling she clicks better with others than with you. There is nothing you can do when a former friend just stops calling and seems uninterested when you call. After a while, you just give up. Rejection however hurts: no matter how old you get, it still hurts.

So huh, sorry, about the non-poetic self-pity.

4 hours ago, sheep said:

For someone who is described as so extroverted, Adolin has remarkably few friends, real or fake.  He courts girls for two weeks before getting dumped, and doesn't really have a chance to get to know them.  He drinks wine with fellow lighteyes, but they only hang around because his family is rich and influential.  He mentions feeling sad when Kholin soldiers die during the chasmfiend hunt, and after the Tower happened and the Cobalt Guard got decimated.  For someone who cares so much about his friends and former bodyguards, it was disappointing that his friendships were more informed than apparent on-screen, since it was just one passing line about how he missed them.  And even in WoK, there was barely any interaction.  Adolin doesn't go out to the pub like Kaladin.  He spends most of WoK and WoR with his family taking care of family problems.  

You may dislike this alternative character interpretation, but maybe Adolin is less extroverted than you think.  If he valued friendships so much, it seems strange that out of all the "friends" he has or had in the series, he confides his troubles with his Shardblade more than anyone else.  I know that you have disagreements with Brandon saying that Adolin is less complex a character than the rest of the cast, but the fact that a lot of his personality traits are informed sort of matches up to his role as a supporting character rather than a main protagonist.  His insecurity issues with girls are never explained since the dumping happens off-screen, and played for humour.  If it really mattered for characterisation rather than a contrived plot point that left him open to being set up with Shallan (see: trope), it would have been more than an off-hand mental note.

I do like Adolin as a character since he is purposefully written to be likeable, but from the beginning I had always picked up on the fact that he was the literary equivalent of an hors d'oeuvre and Kaladin was the entrée.

Being extroverted means needing the energy flow from other people to feel energized as opposed to introverted individuals who will achieve the same while being on their own. Thinking being extroverted implies successful relationships is one of the greatest misconceptions others have on extroversion. Extroversion is a need to be around people, to talk to people, to interact with people and sadly it does not necessarily comes with good people's skills. More over, strong extroverted individuals rely so much on others to feel good about themselves it isn't rare they end up forging personalities, trying to be what they perceive others want them to be in order to get this connection they crave for. It isn't rare strong extroverted individuals will fly from one acquaintance to the other, the social butterfly effect, without taking time to get to know others truly or to let them get to know them. They will often rely on quantity as opposed to quality, not because they do not wish for deeper meaningful relationships, but because they fear others will reject them if they were to know them. They fear moving pass the first level of intimacy will yield in them losing a source of energy. In other words, strong extroverted are terribly needy: they need others to be around them, but many do not know how to transform their cheerful social personality into lasting relationships. It also happens for extroverted individuals to be terribly shy because their life force, their self-confidence has become so tied up into what "others think of them", they become so self-conscious they have a hard time doing what they do best, interact for fear others won't like them. See the turning wheel here?

Hence our Adolin definitely is extroverted. If he weren't, he wouldn't be seen evolving around so many individuals, he wouldn't seek other's company so often, he wouldn't love parties and he wouldn't be hurt over Jakamav's rejection. My readings are we are faced with a specimen of the shy extroverted yearning to please which alternatively ends up not being able to open-up for fear of losing all he has gained. Take or leave a few bits, but this is roughly the portrait I draw of Adolin, the one which best fit the character's behavior we have been given so far. 

It isn't such extroverted do not care about friendship, they care immensely about friendship, but they also don't feel their own self is good enough for others. I also think young Adolin has probably not realized much about his own self yet, meaning he genuinely thought his volatile friendships meant something. They obviously did for him, finding out it wasn't reciprocal was a novelty. He also admits how he doesn't like being too close with people which indicates a form of barrier which isn't linked to either extroversion or introversion, but to a certain lack of self-confidence. In other words, he isn't putting himself out there. Typically those who behave this way does it because they either fear rejection or are naturally too sensitive upon negative remarks. It is a protection mechanism of sorts, but it doesn't mean introversion.

I would also have a stake and say several introverted individuals are perhaps more apt to develop meaningful relationships than several extroverted ones because being less needy they have been allowed to grow more independent. The fact they don't rely on others so much to get their energy intake perhaps makes them more prone to take a plunge once they find someone they believe they can enjoy the company. Once they have this friend, it is likely they are going to grow very close to this one friend while extroverted are likely to jump around to the next available individual to babble again about their life. I personally find there are so many layers within extroversion, it is sad so few authors are trying at writing convincing realistic extroverted characters.

Therefore, Adolin's few friends aren't a sign of introversion, but a sign of extroversion. He is needy, but he can't put himself out there fearing he'll lose his popularity. There is much to say about that. It also hardly is surprising he would confide into his Blade: the poor kid has to talk to someone. He hardly ever talks about himself to others, well he talks, but he never says the things which matters the most, he never talks about what ails him and for someone so social not to do it typically indicate issues with how others view them. His Blade isn't going to respond, it isn't going to reject him, it isn't going to laugh and talking to it isn't going to break the Popular Boy image he has going which he strongly believes he needs to maintain if he is to continue having a social life. It is all very complex, very intriguing and very interesting.

I strongly disagree with Adolin's personality traits being all informed because I find there more to tell about him then there is left to tell about Kaladin. For instances, I know he has relationship issues, but I do not know why. I have a tiny infinitesimal indication, but it nowhere even begins to approach a definite portrait. In comparison, every single one of Kaladin's personality traits are the subject of an extremely tight focus. Where all such a great mystery impossible to guess without deep introspection? I do not believe so. Did we need so many chapters of Kaladin sitting in prison to understand the extend of his mental dilemma? No. We didn't. We could have gotten to the same conclusions with less: focus deeply on it is a narrative choice the author made, just as he decided he didn't want to give us Adolin's perspective after both the 4 on 1 duel and the chasm scene. Does these matter for characterization? Of course it does: the author decided Adolin's characterization wasn't something the story needed. His decision. I do not have to agree with it.

Also, if there ever were any doubts as to Brandon feelings towards Adolin, he had made them rather clear lately. He doesn't find the character to be interesting because he doesn't have a secretive personality. Needless to say how disappointed and sadden I was to hear this. I strongly disagree about this statement and it tells me Brandon, as an individual, prefers his other characters to Adolin. I had already guessed this a while ago. He finds him less interesting for personal reasons, which is his right, but my right as a reader is to say I do think he is missing out on what could have been a great character arc. Of course what he'll write instead is perhaps going to be very entertaining, but it won't be Adolin. No other characters will ever replace Adolin as no other characters had the potential to have his story arc: the ones we'll get instead will never be the equivalent, not to me, as a reader, because Adolin's is what I wanted to read. He is the sole reason I have gotten involved in this community to begin with. So yeah, it is a massive bummer to me. 

Speaking of hors-d'oeuvres versus entrées, I this the analogy is not exact. I don't feel Adolin is a hors-d'oeuvre, but one of those tiny pieces of another meal you get served, a few times, while you eat the large comfort plate which is Kaladin. Once you have gone through two consecutive meals with Kaladin as the entrée, you end up wanting to eat something else, something different, something refreshing... You want Adolin (well I do, I can't speak for others), but he isn't on the menu.

Trust me if I could read anything else, I would, but it took me more than two decades of reading to find a character I could actually relate to. It will probably take another two decades to fins another one and even then, just as with Adolin, nothing garantee me the author will want to write this character. I may very well end up with yet another supporting character the author doesn't feel strongly for.

7 hours ago, sheep said:

Out of his family members, Adolin seems closer to Navani as a parent figure than his actual father, who is his commanding officer.  He can talk about personal problems with Navani, like the Dalinar going crazy thing, and was familiar enough to warn her off seducing Dalinar because it looks bad.  It didn't work, but the attempt counts for something.  Compare his relationship to Renarin where he pressured his brother into taking Salinor's blade and Renarin never asked about the screaming in his head, even though Adolin is an internationally famous Blade expert that even rural, sheltered Shallan knew about.  Compare his relationship to Jasnah where he was more interested in flirting with Shallan instead of being worried that someone just killed his cousin and his other cousin Elhokar was almost assassinated the previous day.

Is it a cultural thing, or do Alethis just have their priorities out of whack?

Based on my readings, I have come to the conclusion Adolin is the one who misses his mother the most. He is the one who yearns for a parental figure, anyone, providing they are willing to play out their role. It also one of the reasons I find Brandon's statement saying Adolin has no depth baffling as it is obvious the character has an untold story with his mother and even if this story fits within one single chapter, I'd still want to read it. 

With Renarin, Adolin is too set up into the Big Brother role. His task is to listen, to encourage, to help, but not to confide. He doesn't tell his brother about his own anxieties which isn't to tell Renarin isn't guessing, but still. The scene after Jakamav's rejection was rather telling: Adolin had just suffer a rejection which hurt him, but he never said a word about it, automatically deciding whatever his brother was going through was more important. It is why I have yearned for a brother reversal role where Adolin ends up being the one needing support, despite his resistance because I feel it'd make a good story arc.

As for Jasnah, we have to consider the possibility he may not have been very close to her. Sure she was a cousin, but it may be his relationship with her was close to nonexistent hence he never felt the need to talk about it. After all, Adolin is a good decade younger than Jasnah and didn't get old enough to be interesting, to her, until recently and recently, she hasn't been around much. My reading has it Adolin has never been close to Jasnah and while he is slightly sad she died, her death does not weight as much as his men's death at the Tower.

10 hours ago, sheep said:

Malta growing up and turning out to be a genuinely good person was a immensely satisfying ending.  It made the contrast to how selfish and self-centred the dragons were, and they never got any better.  By the end of the Rain Wilds series, I started hating all the dragons and it would have been unbearable if the human characters were as terrible.  Malta as the sane voice of reason is something I never expected in the first Liveship book.  Oh, and by the way, the third trilogy has some "pat the dog" moments when Fitz gets recognised for his service in a most satisfying way.  Life still manages to screw him over, but at least he gets one good thing.  And by that time in the timeline, he is an old man with wisdom not to be as stupid as he was as a young man, and he has a magic combination that makes him more powerful than almost everyone.  I'm still waiting on the third book because the second book ends with the worst cliffhanger.

I could see Shallan/Renarin being a thing if the author had wanted to go that way.  It wouldn't have been the instant attraction of "he's hot/she's hot" that Shallan/Adolin had, but Renarin has hidden depths and Shallan could have been the one to help him reveal it to the world after telling him to stop moping and get on with his life, the way she did to Kaladin.  It would have taken more work to get it to happen in a feasible way, using a contrived Chasm Scene/Stuck in the Elevator situation, but it could have happened.  Honestly, I care more about an author developing a relationship in a meaningful and thoughtful way rather than disregarding predictable plotlines.  I don't care if Designated Protagonist gets together with Strong Female Lead as long as it's well done and not a series of sappy coincidences that YA and Harlequin romances are filled with.

Movie HP and Book HP are two completely different things, you must remember!  The movie was written and directed by a bunch of different people, so of course characters are inconsistent from movie to movie and lack the development of the book counterparts.  And HP is a series that doesn't have the meticulous and almost scientific worldbuilding that Sanderson and other newer fantasy authors have with all their research on axial tilt.  It doesn't hold up if you look too deep into it.  It seems super weird that most people got together with someone in their Hogwarts year group.  But according to Rowling, the Wizarding World of the UK is only 10k people, and marrying 

Malta was a very satisfying character development. I agree about the dragons: I never understood why the humans just didn't kill the vile selfish creatures right away, why they were doing their binding... Why the Fool wanted the Dragons to be back, what gain did this give society? None. I didn't read the last trilogy. I will, eventually but I am not in the mood for it right now.

I have never been a fan of Shallan/Renarin for the mere reason it seemed too contrived... Of course, the scholar wannabe girl will prefer the shy introverted boy who has to have an interest into scholarship even if it is never been made obvious. Having Shallan like Adolin is more interesting, more out of the usual and it demands better growth than having Shallan pluck out secrets out of Renarin not to mention how bored she would have been with him. He hardly ever speak, he doesn't understand humor and he over thinks everyone of his replies: a terrible combo for Shallan. I personally wouldn't mind if the main protagonist got with the other main protagonist had them be anyone else than Shallan and Kaladin: I just don't like them together. It isn't about just one trope, it is about several other tropes.

Harry Potter is a good story if you take it for what it is: a story written for a young audience which doesn't pass the test of in-depth scrutiny. Still I have to give Rowling what she deserves: she did create compelling stories which were rather taking at the time when I read them. They had many flaws, but I didn't mind them as I read it.

10 hours ago, sheep said:

I think we could rant on and on about Kaladin for days, for various reasons.  But hate the player, not the game.  You have to admit that Kaladin, due to choices he made and freak incidents of circumstance, is in the thick of the action most of the time, and the plot moves forward because of the things he does.  He may be the irritating Boy who Lived that even the storms couldn't kill, Chosen by Destiny to potentially be the Champion everyone was hoping for, but without him SA would be closer to a political fantasy with secret society after secret society all planning in circles.  I don't know if you have read political intrigue fiction within the genre of fantasy, sci-fi, or historical fiction, but unless they are paced very well, they can get pretty boring until the inevitable Plot Avalanche bit happens.  Without Kaladin, WoK would be even more tedious to new readers than it is already - just go on Goodreads and read those low star reviews on people complaining how long the buildup took.

The problem with Kaladin, in my eyes at least, comes down to how he is a pawn of the author and all the good and bad things thrown at him in his life were all contrived plot points to put him at the right place at the right time rather than an organic movement from Plot Point A to Plot Point B.  

 

Where had those words come from?  Convenient how this one sentence from five years ago conveniently pops up at the right place for Kaladin to save the day.

 

"There", and that's all it takes.  Well, that's convenient.

For a plot-driven story, this author contrived convenience serves to move the plot along, because otherwise WoR would be 1800 pages long and we'd have to slog through more chapters of Kaladin moping along.  But it annoys me and confirms in my mind that Kaladin has plot privileges and that any time he gets into a pickle, he will get out of it at the right time and right place after he has gotten the mandatory morality lesson.  The hero rises triumphant yet again, and I don't feel any sense of tension because I know he will be thrown an Awesome Moment in the Plot Avalanche.  

In these times where I get annoyed, my solution is to read other books.  Instead of over-dwelling on what I dislike, why not read things that I like?  Because I did not like the revised ending with Szeth's fight in WoR.  Brandon corrected it because he thought it was out of character for Kaladin to do what he did, but in my reading, I thought the new version was more OOC.  It didn't matter in the end because of you know what, but I'm still hung up about it.

 

I love to rant on Kaladin mostly because so many readers think him such a relatable character, it makes me want to rant even harder, if it makes sense. Kaladin is the thick of the action because the author wants him to be. I agree he was the right choice to carry on the narrative of WoK, I will never dispute this. While I agree he was still the right character to still carry it into WoR, I felt he should not be the sole one going into book 3. I would never attempt to re-write WoK without Kaladin, it wouldn't work, but going into book 3, I do not see him as a requirement. Mind, he should still have a large role, but I do not think he should be the sole focus as the story keeps on growing mostly because he has gotten predictable and well, I find other characters more interesting to read about than him.

Kaladin is too convenient. Everything happens to him, only him just so the author could have a mean to carry on his climaxes, but it doesn't need to happen in the same fashion over and over again. I think the story would benefit if the author were to vary his viewpoints and to give action scenes to other characters but Kaladin.

I do get annoyed but sadly no other book I have read has given me a character I could root/relate too as strongly as Adolin.

10 hours ago, sheep said:

Acting OOC to further the plot is one of the no-no's of rational fiction.  I didn't think the scene was as awesome as everyone else thought it was.  I thought it was kind of sad.  Szeth came to a realisation that the Knights Radiant were back and his whole life as Truthless was a lie as he was dying.  If you know something of stage operas, one thing they like doing is sing a melodramatic sad song while they die, and when they finish the last note, they drop dead.  That's how contrived I thought the ending of WoR was, with You Know Who at the right place at the right time to rescue Szeth before he became completely braindead.

Maybe I'm too picky because I'm complaining about fantasy fiction being unrealistic.  I don't mind fantasy elements in fantasy.  It's just a personal preference for characters and the invisible hand of author-involvement to be more consistent, and if foreshadowing and Chekhov's Guns are around, they could be a bit more subtle.  And with Kaladin as a character, he is anything but subtle.  

 

I think most people prefer the original ending to the new one. Reasons are various. For my part, I tend to prefer the first one: I understand the reasons being the change, but I do not like the precedent it makes within Kaladin's character. I prefer having Kaladin kill Szeth than showing some sort of absurd pity tied in a false sense of protection. 

Brandon explains in interview how he changed Jasnah's death scene because his alpha/beta readers thought it was too obvious she wasn't dead. Hence, he made it less obvious, but he realized afterwards it ended up cheapening Szeth's resurrection as too many readers feel he has overused this specific trope. I was pleased with the explanation because I was bothered by the double dead/not dead characters, so to find out there was a rational behind it and it wasn't exactly planned to come out this way was satisfying. This being said, Nale's timely appearance was indeed contrived, but we can assume there was a purpose being it. I wasn't overly bothered by this specific arc. I was more bother knowing I'd have to read more Szeth.

On 9/11/2016 at 11:10 AM, sheep said:

I dislike when the readers know the answer to the mystery that the Multi-POV cast haven't figured out yet because they didn't bother to talk to one another and compare notes.  It's justifiable and acceptable if everyone is questing all over the continent, but if magic mirrors, scrying glasses, and Magic Telephones exist in the universe, I'd be tearing my hair out in frustration.  I dislike withholding information for stupid reasons also.  I dislike zombie stories for this reason, because there is always, ALWAYS, going to be someone who gets bitten and hides it from the rest of the group until it's too late.   Especially when everyone knows there's no cure, and the consequence of a bite is ALWAYS turning zombie.

I don't actually mind introspective characters, as long as they are well-written.  The better written ones tend to be self-aware and I can better understand how they make decisions, act, and react within the plot, even though I might not personally agree with their values or ethics.  On the other hand, I don't think being an extrovert makes a character automatically more interesting, solely because of their rarity value.  In one series I read, there was an extrovert character whose character flaw was that she liked people and attention too much and it always got her into trouble because she was a wanted criminal.  It was a part of her personality like Kaladin's depression, and she couldn't change it, so it always led to her cover getting blown just when she thought she was safe.  I can't re-read it because of how much frustration I remember feeling in certain parts pretty much the whole series.
For the curious, the series is "Bloody Jack" by LA Meyer.

I think a lot of readers will agree the "not talking to one another" narrative ploy has gotten old: it isn't overly popular nowadays and many would think it lazy for an author to resort to it over and over again. Luckily, Brandon moved through his at a quick pace, so hopefully he is done with it now the Radiants are officially back. There are others I know whom would have make it drag for several more books. 

All manners of characters can be interesting: Lirael is a very good introverted character because it isn't used as a plot device. I didn't mean to say being extroverted automatically makes a character interesting: I meant to complain over the lack of such good well characterized characters within works of fantasy. What makes it more interesting, to me, is rarity. The tropes which would revolve around such characters aren't often explored in any level of depth which makes them refreshing. I mean, if all stories were about Perfect Princes and the unraveling of such perfection, after a while, you'd want the Farm Boy with a Sword. It is all about rate of occurrence. 

And huh the character you described is terrible and served to highlight why finding a good extroverted protagonist is nearly impossible: all tends to be nothing more than caricature filled with stereotypes. As if extroverted had no secrets or couldn't keep one... This is why characters such as Adolin are precious: they are well written even if not explored.

On the Art: Adolin at the gym is adorable. I love Kaladin's head band. Adolin as Johnny Rico is almost perfect though I hated the actor they choose for the movie: his face was weird, somehow.  The garage band is pitiful: I agree with above commentaries, give them Scottish pipes or something