Jump to content

Illustrated SA Scenes & Characters


sheep

Recommended Posts

On 21/07/2016 at 3:58 AM, Erklitt said:

@sheep You know what I find really fascinating? You don't like Hoid, and I do, yet you sketch him in a way I find fitting. I agree he's scheming, and usually I don't like scheming people, but for Hoid with all his knowledge and experience I make an exception, because I really think he's trying to do good. And to my mind, you captured the face he presents to the world very well - it's the mask he wears. In those rare moments when he talked openly to Dalinar, I'm sure he looked different - but while he goes about insulting people, I can perfectly picture him now thanks to your sketch. Thanks!!

I find myself disliking a whole lot of fictional characters; I'm kind of picky that way.  But I am aware that I am being overly nitpicky, and if I dislike them, it's due to something that I feel is justified, and it's not just because of something silly, like "I don't like their face".  It doesn't ruin my enjoyment of a series, or prevent me from being able to understand their character enough to turn them into a visual, drawn image.  In fact, I think that because I dislike them, I understand them better - their defining character traits are what I recognise as something that, if I ever knew them in person, would prevent me from wanting to be friends with them.

Wit is an interesting character, and he pops up so often and knowing so much.  I guess I am frustrated at that because he's always shown doing mysterious things for significant purposes, but the purposes and motivations are never explained, and I find it incredibly frustrating.  But if I never drew something because I disliked them, I would rarely draw anything at all.

 

On 21/07/2016 at 4:45 AM, Rasarr said:

I love, love, love those black-and-white sketches. Elhokar scenes and Wit chatting with a cremling are so fitting to their personality (also Elhokar is my favourite character in SA, so I'm just gushing in general here). And those scenes in the camp interiors :D

Elhokar's a bit hard to pin down, to me.  One of his goals is to be a respected king, and he wants to look good to the people so that the people will love him, and that is why he hated Kaladin so much in the arena.  So my drawing of him shows him as someone who is somewhat aware of how royalty should look, with flamboyant clothes and fashionable hair, but is neurotic and overcompensating.  So I give him sad eyes.

All those minor characters have interesting personalities and motivations, and they need a bit of love, because no one ever draws them, and people rarely discuss them because it's more interesting to try and determine exactly how many lumens the stormlight coming out of Kaladin's mouth is compared to the lumens of a diamond broam.  I don't blame them, since it's been years since the last book, but I quite enjoy coming up with character designs.

 

On 21/07/2016 at 1:17 PM, maxal said:

I think Dalinar would have been ridiculously proud of Adolin after the duel, but before, he would have been ragging mad his young son saw fit to wager his new Shardplate, especially considering how much trouble the family went to secure this particular one. We should not forget how Adolin stated nobody thought he could win: everyone pinned him for the loser. Everyone surely included his own father, after all, Adolin was just 16 and inexperienced because let's face it, there is only so much experience you can have at such a young age.


Adolin at 16 had 10 years of military training by then, even if he only had Shardplate for a few months before the duel.  It would have been obvious that he was talented and dedicated by then (I'm not sure how old a person has to be to choose their Vorin religious Calling, but Adolin mentioned he chose Duelling as his), and if everyone underestimated Adolin's skill, they still respected it enough not to call off the match.  Remember in the 4-on-1 duel, Relis Ruthar's friends didn't want to hurt Renarin because they were all aware he was completely outmatched and couldn't put up the least resistance if they went hard on him - there's still some honour to them, even if they are completely scags.  If Adolin had been completely useless, and Tinalar had won, he would have been a full Shardbearer and everyone would clap him on the back in public. In private everyone would think he was a bully, and be extra careful when socialising with him because they didn't want to risk the wrath of Blackthorn Dalinar.

Even when Adolin challenged Relis to a duel, the Brightlady highjudge Istow asked him "Are you sure this is what you want?".  So that gives the implication that there are mechanisms in place to stop foolish kids throwing away their family heirlooms (and it makes sense because these things are considered priceless).  So the fact that Adolin went through with his first Shard duel means that there was consent.  If Dalinar wanted to, and wasn't confident in Adolin's abilities, he could probably stop a duel before it took place if he paid off a highjudge witness enough.  The reason he couldn't in WoR was because she was already bought, and the duel already in progress, which would have resulted in a public forfeit.

Evidence points toward Adolin's using Gavilar's Firestorm in his first duel, btw.

Quote

Dalinar shivered at the thought of someone else wearing his Plate or holding Oathbringer. It was unnatural. And yet, the lending of the king’s Blade and Plate—or before the kingship had been restored, the lending of a highprince’s Blade and Plate—was a strong tradition. Even Gavilar had not broken it, though he had complained about it in private.
Chapter 58, "The Journey", Way of Kings.

If Dalinar was so proud of Adolin, he would have encouraged him. in beating anyone who dissed the Kholin name.  I can't remember reading that Dalinar was upset with Adolin specifically for wagering his Plate, because Adolin in WoR reminiscing about Tinalar thinks "nobody took me seriously then, either", which I understood to mean the high dahn lighteyes rather than his family.  Please correct me if I have forgotten something!

 

On 21/07/2016 at 1:17 PM, maxal said:

I need to offer additional precision. Adolin, of course, is very fit, athletic and would give a run to anyone anyone's money in any yearly swimsuit calendar. He, however, has been training in a similar way, for years and while wearing an artifact which increases his speed, his strength and his endurance. It is commented in WoK (or WoR) how difficult it was for former Shardbearer to learn how to fight without them. I suspect relying endlessly on its advantages to keep you going might make you unprepared to pace yourselves appropriately and it would impact on your fighting strategy: you will not fight the same if you only need one strike to slay an opponent nor will you fight the same if the same opponent has to strike countless hits before he can think of harming you.

The best example to illustrate my point would be Kaladin upon his first bridge run. Despite being muscular, fit and well trained, he literally drop down exhausted after running the bridge above one chasm. His despair upon finding out he'd have to do it over again, several more times, before getting back to camp was palpable. Yes, he had been a slave for 8 months, but still this scene illustrates how unprepared all of Kaladin's previous training made him for this particular task. Training wise, stop and go is about the worst you could do, cardio wise, it is super hard, especially when you have never done it before. You may have run long distances before, but go to the stop and go motion could still kill you if you aren't careful. After a while, Kaladin decides to train for the bridge run and he improves massively, both in strength and in cardio. Overall, I do think Kaladin's training has been more diverse than Adolin which would give him an edge, training wise. 


Adolin would probably wear a full body wetsuit on any beach photoshoot.  Only the Shattered Plains annual wet uniform contest would be something he would participate in, and then only unwillingly. :ph34r:

Kaladin is probably more fit than Adolin, but I wouldn't say Adolin's current physical state (minus the bruises and broken wrist) is a disadvantage in itself, maybe when compared to stormlight-fuelled tanks like Kaladin, but to other Shardbearers, Adolin in top form.  It is difficult for Shardbearers to learn to fight without Shards, but how often does that happen?  Shardbearers give up their shards when they die or get old enough to retire, so they never need to learn to fight without.  And even when Shardbearers do fight in Shardplate, they take it off as soon as the battle ends, as Jakamav does when he goes to drink wine.  Adolin and Elhokar are the weird ones for staying in their plate for up to and over 24 hours out of paranoia, because although they can't feel the weight of the Plate while wearing it, it is still a stuffy, closed metal sauna that you sweat continuously in.  Dehydration can be as exhausting as fatigue at the end of the day.  Up until the end of WoR, Adolin's only fights without Shardplate were with Szeth and Sadeas, he otherwise didn't fight against humans.  So up until then, he had no need to consider learning to fight without Shards, just as he probably never learned how to ride normal horses in Plate, or how to go a week without a bath.  Maybe things will change.

Gilbert courted another, and Anne courted another man but refused him.  Courting back then was just "walking out with a beau", just dates and nothing really intimate.  I thought it was romantic for Anne to realise that she loved him the whole time and never knew it, but yeah it was frustrating for readers and Gilbert in the friendzone.  But compared to other authors that follow the "loved him/her all along" plotline, Anne of Green Gables does it very well and they end up married for the long term.  There have been other stories where it just seems too forced, or too convenient, or just kind of unsatisfying and kind of gross at the end if someone says "I have loved you since you were a child" and he/she was in an adult in the story at the time.  :wacko:

You focus so much on Adolin that you forget that there are other cogs in the machine that are small, but still important.  There are plenty of normals who are happy being normal and don't resent their lives.  Navani has found her purpose, and it was proved to be useful, and I think she has the experience and motherly instincts enough to be able to help Adolin, since she understands what it's like to love someone that she can't be with because reasons.  There was never a good opportunity in the past since she had a grudge against Shallan because of Jasnah, and it forced Adolin to have to pick one over the other to spend time with, and he chose Shallan.

The bridgemen too - and the Bridge Four bodyguards have been around enough to be aware of the level of hate Adolin has for Sadeas, as one of them nodded to him after the confrontation in the chapter "Uncut Gems".  They're with him all the time, and after they saved his life in the Battle of Narak, Adolin stopped resenting them for invading his privacy and not being his dead Cobalt Guards.  They of all people would be the most likely to sympathise with his situation.

If everyone is getting something out of their relationship partner, what are they putting in?  I think that's the more important question.  What does Adolin contribute, and if his virtue is "being genuine", what does that mean when he's hiding the Sadeas secret and his public persona is a sham?

Quote

“I speak so confidently to everyone else,” Adolin said, “since I know they rely on me.”
Chapter 14, "Ironstance", Words of Radiance

 

 

On 21/07/2016 at 1:17 PM, maxal said:

Huh, many guys never even kiss 5 girls within their lifetime... Five is a lot and more than enough to remove the "wow" factor. In any way, it is very hard to determine how many girls Adolin has kissed or not: I am simply settling on "not many" while keeping the option "Shallan may be the first" open. Jamie Fraser issues were completely different: being a runaway wanted "criminal" and having been flogged to near death kinda put a hold on his romantic endeavor. Adolin has no excuse for his horrible track record except for himself.

This is true about Harry, simply knowing there was something else outside the Dursley's household may have been enough to keep him steady. His new found self-confidence, found at Hogwart, probably helped as well. The difference would be Renarin has not been mistreated within his own household. He was cared for, love and supported: he was never abused. So again, the comparison does not hold all that well.

Jamie Fraser was a soldier too, with all those soldierly opportunities just like Adolin.  Jamie said he didn't want it because they were all prostitutes in poor condition and he was grossed out, and thought he had better standards than that.

Harry turned out commendably well for being an orphan who was abused throughout his formative years, surrounded by many terrible adult role models like all those DADA teachers, the secretive Dumbledore, and the manchild replacement-father Sirius Black.  Renarin is different from Harry Potter that he has no named antagonist figure like Snape or Draco, and Dalinar keeps people from ever becoming one, like Wit and his teasing.  The sheltering/hover-parenting in some instances can be more of a bad thing than a good thing, and it is enough to set Renarin apart from his peers like any bully could do.  Just look at what Petunia and Vernon Dursley's love did to Dudley Dursley.

Kaladin's childhood was different from the other children because Lirin was a light-touch discliplinarian.

Quote

“I’m sorry, Father,” he said.
Kal’s father, Lirin, carefully tightened the strap around the arm of the young woman who was tied onto the narrow operating table. Her eyes were closed; Kal had missed the administration of the drug. “We will discuss your tardiness later,” Lirin said
Chapter 10, "Stories of Surgeons", Way of Kings

Lirin raised Kaladin to understand why the rules were rules, and that involved questioning the establishment.  The intent was to create in Kaladin a rational and clear thinker, which would make him a better surgeon.  But it failed because Lirin was so lenient in encouraging Kaladin to independently conclude that saving lives through medicine was the right thing that Kaladin ended up formulating his personal moral code in another direction.  Kaladin can be too clever for his own good that he ends up shooting himself in the foot, which makes him unsuitable for being a foot soldier or a squadleader/sergeant, because they are roles that require obedience and discipline.  He would be good in a commando unit, or as an elite solo bodyguard as he is in WoR, but the role of a regular soldier is something he could never truly be happy with, even whilst he is discontent doing it and wishing for the good old days.  I do not think Kaladin could ever be really happy no matter what he does; it's just not in his character.  It would teach him humility and to be more considerate with people instead of lashing out, if he understood himself enough to admit it.

Even the people who sympathise with Szeth and admire his more positive qualities such as his determination know that it's fuelled by blind faith.  I do not think you need to sympathise with Szeth to enjoy SA.  It is likely that he gets an eventual death by redemption so it's better for you not to feel an attachment.  I personally don't bother to like every single character or protagonist I read.  Understanding their motivations and accepting their importance in creating an enjoyable story yes, but a personal attachment or empathy is very, very rare.  

 

On 21/07/2016 at 1:17 PM, maxal said:

He practically spat on the idea of becoming a city lord... maybe he doesn't look down on it, but he states it as if he'd rather have all his tooth pulled then occupy this position. So again, had he expanded on why it was such a bad idea, I may have sympathize with him. I also think his family spoiled him by refusing to force him into any course of action, simply focusing on keeping him safe, but not carrying of their over-indulgence may not be the right solution.

I've read and thought about it and concluded that Renarin's introversion, isolation, and lack of occupations/hobbies has led to him being focused on his own experience and preferences to the point of self-centeredness.  He can't participate in physical activities and doesn't devote himself to his other interests like fabrial science because if he can't be a soldier, he doesn't want to do anything else.  Nothing else would be good enough, and when he becomes a real soldier, fabrial science wouldn't help him much.  I think it was always a matter of time for Renarin; he can be so fixated that if he didn't get Dalinar's plate he would eventually directly demand to be a soldier or threaten to jump off a chasm, rather than continue to make offhand passive-aggressive comments about his uselessness.  And that's why you don't like him - Renarin swims in self-pity, and you prefer pro-active protagonists who wield their agency deliberately and with awareness.  

 

Quote

“Fighting is not the only thing of value a man can do.” The ardents were very specific about that. Yes, the highest Calling of men was to join the battle in the afterlife to reclaim the Tranquiline Halls, but the Almighty accepted the excellence of any man or woman, regardless of what they did.
You just did your best, picking a profession and an attribute of the Almighty to emulate. A Calling and a Glory, it was said. You worked hard at your profession, and you spent your life trying to live according to a single ideal. The Almighty would accept that, particularly if you were lighteyed—the better your blood as a lighteyes, the more innate Glory you had already.
Dalinar’s Calling was to be a leader, and his chosen Glory was determination. He’d chosen both in his youth, though he now viewed them very differently than he once had.
“You are right, of course, Father,” Renarin said. “I am not the first hero’s son to be born without any talent for warfare. The others all got along. So shall I. Likely I will end up as citylord of a small town. Assuming I don’t tuck myself away in the devotaries.” The boy’s eyes turned forward.
Chapter 18, "Highprince of War", Way of Kings


Dalinar chose Leadership as his Calling, and Adolin chose Duelling.  Neither of them chose being a soldier.  The only thing required by Vorinism is excellence.  Renarin wants to be a soldier because it is the opportunity that was stripped from him by a fluke of genetics rather than a faith-based desire to get into Vorin heaven, no matter what he says.

Quote

“It’s no shame to not be fit enough for battle, Brightlord. Not every man is needed for fighting.”
“Sure,” Renarin said bitterly. “Everyone tells me that. Then they all go back to fighting. The ardents, they claim every Calling is important, but then what do they teach about the afterlife? That it’s a big war to reclaim the Tranquiline Halls. That the best soldiers in this life are glorified in the next.”
Chapter 41, "Scars", Words of Radiance

He singlemindedly wants what he can't have because he thinks it will make him "normal" and "just like the other boys", and anything else (like a comfortable desk job) would be a consolation prize to remind him of how he wasn't good enough for "the real thing".  Other people who lack a disability would not be able to understand it.  So he passes it off as being pious, which people would be understand, even if they do not keep the faith as much as they think he does.  

You consciously picked up on Renarin's sulkiness, and if you have also noticed his secrecy and lack of transparency with others and himself (though this last one is due to lack of page time and PoV) this has helped to set him up as a character undeserving of your empathy.  

 

 

 

 

 



Art time

 

Character design - Torol Sadeas

Quote

Sadeas strolled up to Adolin, hands clasped behind his back, wearing a fashionable open-fronted short brown coat and an embroidered green stock. The buttons along the front of the coat were gemstones. Emeralds to match the stock.
Chapter 50, "Uncut Gems", Words of Radiance

 

Spoiler

gUYzvzL.jpg

My strongest visual impression of Sadeas was that he was smug and punchable.  And his description in WoK as someone with a ruddy face, bulbous nose and long curly hair was not something that was particularly heroic, so I didn't bother try to make him look trustworthy at all.  The top sketch is him and Ialai as arena spectators.  Imagine Ialai saying something like, "That young Kholin is perhaps better than you at his age" and Sadeas saying "Hah, gurl pleeease."  Bottom is Sadeas in his Shardplate gloating (seems like something he'd do) over his new Shardblade, Oathbringer.  I try to follow book descriptions for clothing designs as closely as I can, but I do take artistic license and I prefer a sketched outfit to be cohesive in colour and style.  So I will choose something that I feel has a stylish and coordinated "look" over book perfectionism.  A "stock", by the way, is a cravat, and the coat design is based on a Tyrolean jacket.

 

 

Character Design - Laral Wistiow

Quote

“Don’t you want to become a lighteyes? Win a Shardblade?”
“Father says that doesn’t happen very often.”
She knelt down before him. “I’m sure you could do it.” Those eyes, so bright and alive, shimmering green, the color of life itself.
Chapter 16, "Cocoons", Way of Kings

Quote

“Laral,” Kaladin’s mother said. “She’s wearing a bride’s prayer on her sleeve.”
Kaladin started, seeing the white cloth with its blue glyphpair sewn onto the sleeve of her dress. She’d burn it when the engagement was formally announced.
Chapter 44, "The Weeping", Way of Kings

 

 

Spoiler

MWfOcPB.jpg

Lots of people don't like Laral because she wasn't very nice to Kaladin, but I kind of like her.  Her story is the one of the girl-next-door who got hot, and her motif colour is yellow, because she wears it the most often in story.  The dress design is a havah version of Madeline's dress from the animated tv show with the nuns, with open sleeves because Laral is young enough not to cover up, and it was a visual way to show how naive and innocent she was.  The bottom sketch is "Laral's farewell", because in that chapter it is where her engagement to Roshone is announced, and also when Kaladin and Tien are recruited into Amaram's army and they never see each other again.

The sad part is that Laral is pretty much the anti-Shallan.  She is the orphan girl from a good family that became poor, but unlike Shallan, Laral doesn't have Shallan's strength of will, precocious intelligence, creativity or determination.  Shallan killed her father and chased Jasnah by ship for 6 months, and when she didn't have suitable tutors for her education, she made up for it by studying on her own.  Laral, in a small rural town, had few education opportunities either, and fewer natural talents than Shallan, and therefore passively wished for a Shardbearer knight to come to her rescue.  Now you can see where "Shallan as a Mary Sue" character interpretations come from.

 

 

Character design - Gaz

Quote

A man lounged in the shade a distance from the eating men. He turned, revealing a face that was so scarred his beard grew in patches. He was missing one eye—the other was brown—and didn’t bother with an eye patch. White knots at his shoulders marked him as a sergeant, and he had the lean toughness Kaladin had learned to associate with someone who knew his way around a battlefield.
Chapter 6, "Bridge Four", Way of Kings

Quote

“The world just changed, Gaz,” Kaladin said, leaning in close. “I died down at that chasm. Now you’ve got my vengeful spirit to deal with.”
Squirming, Gaz looked about frantically for help that wasn’t there. Kaladin didn’t have trouble holding him down. There was one thing about running bridges: If you survived long enough, it built up the muscles.
Chapter 11, "Droplets", Way of Kings

 

Spoiler

74uoTE6.jpg


Gaz, the designated villain who is actually quite sad and pathetic once you take away the sergeant's knots.  I drew him as wiry and scruffy, and because he is short, the "one size fits all" uniforms are too big for him and look baggy.  The uniform jacket is similar to the Bridge Four foot soldier uniforms, but in Sadeas green, and on Gaz it is wrinkly and poorly fitting.  The top sketch is Kaladin bullying Gaz after coming back from the Honor Chasm, and if I illustrated it properly, it would be all dark and dramatic with an open wire cage of recharged spheres spilling over the ground.  The bottom sketch is Gaz the carpenter, earning redemption by fixing up Shallan's slave cage.

This was one of the easier designs to do; I think everyone has a good idea of what he looks like.  I also think Brandon Sanderson makes people blush way too much.  Even Gaz blushes at one point at something saucy Shallan says.  Gaz.  Blushing.  

 

 


Alethi fashion plates
Styles by social class

Spoiler

3SridNw.jpg

 


Lower - Hesina and Lirin

Quote

Hesina was a tall woman, and she usually kept her hair pulled back into a tail, then wrapped a kerchief around her head. Today, she wore a knit hat over that. She had a long brown coat that matched Kal’s, and the blue hem of her skirt just barely peeked out at the bottom.
Chapter 25, "The Butcher", Way of Kings

You can probably tell this was inspired by Russian peasant clothing of the earlier 20th century.  In my mind, darkeyes wear simple, practical clothes in natural (undyed) colours because Soulcasting is expensive.  The crops that can be used for consumption can also be used for fibre, such as flax for linen, which is what was done in the old days before industrial farming and market demand for a hugely varied diet.  

 

Middle - Laral and Roshone

Quote

A middle-aged man with a short, grey-streaked beard stepped out. He wore a ruffled violet coat, tailored so that it was short at the front—reaching only to his waist—but long at the back. Beneath it, he wore a golden takama, a long, straight skirt that went down to his calves.
Chapter 25, "The Butcher", Way of Kings

Laral's dress is a version of the vintage 1950's housecoat, which looks glamourous but is made to be worn by working housewives.  Laral's job is to be a citylord's secretary.  Roshone wears a takama, which is the traditional manskirt.  The text description says he wears a tailcoat with a skirt, so out of lack of inspiration, I used the aesthetic of the Scottish black tie kilt, which has a similar silhouette.  I think this is too fancy and would be more fitting for Aladar than Roshone, honestly.

Now imagine Dalinar in a takama.  Do they wear pants underneath?:o

 

Upper - Inkima and Jakamav

Quote

Inkima—Jakamav’s accompaniment for the afternoon—gave a tinkling laugh. She was a plump thing with light yellow eyes who dyed her hair black. She wore a red dress. The color did not look good on her.
Chapter 58, "The Journey", Way of Kings

The fun thing about drawing rich and frivolous lighteyes is that I can use all the impractical designs and fanciful colours as I want.  I find it interesting to combine Vorin modesty with elaborate designs - I figure that a young and wealthy Alethi girl would think it's fashion forward and alluring to cover everything up except for her face and her right arm, which reminds all the young men that there's another arm just like it.  

And Jakamav has a preference for the curvy girls, which Adolin lacks. :D

 

 

A random sketch


Nothing Ridiculous

Quote

“Can you speak, yet say nothing ridiculous?”
Eyes turned toward Renarin, who stood just behind his brother. Renarin hesitated, eyes opening wide at the attention.
“Nothing ridiculous,” Renarin said slowly.
Wit laughed. “Yes, I suppose that will satisfy me. Very clever.
Chapter 15, "The Decoy", Way of Kings

 

Spoiler

VhxJSYS.jpg

When you look Wit in the eyes, all you see is crazy looking out.

 

The end.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Storms, Sadeas' smile when he gloats over Oathbringer is creepy as hell :ph34r: Likewise Wit leaning over Renarin. Brrrr.

On another note, I believe I am starting to get repetitive in my praise for your work, so let me just note that your Gaz design is pretty much the same as how I imagined it. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

40 minutes ago, sheep said:

I find myself disliking a whole lot of fictional characters; I'm kind of picky that way.  But I am aware that I am being overly nitpicky, and if I dislike them, it's due to something that I feel is justified, and it's not just because of something silly, like "I don't like their face".  It doesn't ruin my enjoyment of a series, or prevent me from being able to understand their character enough to turn them into a visual, drawn image.  In fact, I think that because I dislike them, I understand them better - their defining character traits are what I recognise as something that, if I ever knew them in person, would prevent me from wanting to be friends with them.

Wit is an interesting character, and he pops up so often and knowing so much.  I guess I am frustrated at that because he's always shown doing mysterious things for significant purposes, but the purposes and motivations are never explained, and I find it incredibly frustrating.  But if I never drew something because I disliked them, I would rarely draw anything at all.

 

Elhokar's a bit hard to pin down, to me.  One of his goals is to be a respected king, and he wants to look good to the people so that the people will love him, and that is why he hated Kaladin so much in the arena.  So my drawing of him shows him as someone who is somewhat aware of how royalty should look, with flamboyant clothes and fashionable hair, but is neurotic and overcompensating.  So I give him sad eyes.

All those minor characters have interesting personalities and motivations, and they need a bit of love, because no one ever draws them, and people rarely discuss them because it's more interesting to try and determine exactly how many lumens the stormlight coming out of Kaladin's mouth is compared to the lumens of a diamond broam.  I don't blame them, since it's been years since the last book, but I quite enjoy coming up with character designs.

I think you can differentiate a good story from a very good story by the strength of its secondary/minor characters. The best example of this I can actually come up with would be the Codex Alera which I recently read. While the story has undeniable qualities and it certainly is entertaining enough, it relies on a boring main protagonist bordering on perfection whom is surrounded by secondary main protagonists whom tend to be more interesting than him. It gets worst when you move onto the supporting cast as if these showed promises early on, it was never capitalized on and the story turned them into nothing more than lackeys having little agency of their own. The story thus felt unsatisfying, to me, because it lacked the depth other stories have, such as WoT which, despite its flaws, was certainly capable of reigning in a wide cast of interesting ans diverse characters: not many felt like lackeys.

Therefore, the mere fact SA has produced an interesting array of minor characters reader love to speculate/talk about de facto ranks it among the greatest. I do not like Wit nor Elhokar.

I do not like Wit because I tend to dislike characters such as him who's purpose seem to merely be telling me, the reader, stuff about a higher level game not to be featured into another series much farther down the road, while completely refusing to share his knowledge with the main protagonists. Why talking in riddles when you could be more explicit? I also completely disliked his behavior towards Adolin which implies he is the kind of person who would see to his personal goal without caring who he tramples along the road: I dislike this. I also tend to view as a much more minor character than most readers as his role has been extremely limited within the two books we have seen. He still lacks a... personality.

I do not like Elhokar not because he lacks a personality, but because I dislike the one he's got. My problem with him is very similar to my problem with Renarin: he is yet another character whom perhaps was dealt a bad set of cards, but instead of trying to figure which hand he could play, he sits there sulking and complaining. Maybe he'll grow into someone more interesting, more endearing, more sympathetic (to me at least), but I do not see the need for it. I am perfectly comfortable with Elhokar being a minor character, likely a foil, who's trajectory is probably not going to end up into a heroic journey of any kind. I have no idea where he is going, but you aren't going to see me root for more "Elhokar", but I will talk about him.

However, I do like the fact the author managed to give me an opinion on those characters... Ask me what I think of Bernard and I'd say... not much because he is just bland.

I also disagree it is more interesting to discuss how many lumens comes out of Kaladin's mouth... Character related discussions has been keeping the fandom alive more than technicalities. To each our own discussion, but I wouldn't say people aren't interested in discussing the characters. We are discussing them right now and people are discussing them elsewhere, so it definitely draws people in.

41 minutes ago, sheep said:

Adolin at 16 had 10 years of military training by then, even if he only had Shardplate for a few months before the duel.  It would have been obvious that he was talented and dedicated by then (I'm not sure how old a person has to be to choose their Vorin religious Calling, but Adolin mentioned he chose Duelling as his), and if everyone underestimated Adolin's skill, they still respected it enough not to call off the match.  Remember in the 4-on-1 duel, Relis Ruthar's friends didn't want to hurt Renarin because they were all aware he was completely outmatched and couldn't put up the least resistance if they went hard on him - there's still some honour to them, even if they are completely scags.  If Adolin had been completely useless, and Tinalar had won, he would have been a full Shardbearer and everyone would clap him on the back in public. In private everyone would think he was a bully, and be extra careful when socialising with him because they didn't want to risk the wrath of Blackthorn Dalinar.

Even when Adolin challenged Relis to a duel, the Brightlady highjudge Istow asked him "Are you sure this is what you want?".  So that gives the implication that there are mechanisms in place to stop foolish kids throwing away their family heirlooms (and it makes sense because these things are considered priceless).  So the fact that Adolin went through with his first Shard duel means that there was consent.  If Dalinar wanted to, and wasn't confident in Adolin's abilities, he could probably stop a duel before it took place if he paid off a highjudge witness enough.  The reason he couldn't in WoR was because she was already bought, and the duel already in progress, which would have resulted in a public forfeit.

Evidence points toward Adolin's using Gavilar's Firestorm in his first duel, btw.

If Dalinar was so proud of Adolin, he would have encouraged him. in beating anyone who dissed the Kholin name.  I can't remember reading that Dalinar was upset with Adolin specifically for wagering his Plate, because Adolin in WoR reminiscing about Tinalar thinks "nobody took me seriously then, either", which I understood to mean the high dahn lighteyes rather than his family.  Please correct me if I have forgotten something!

I have a hard time considering Adolin's training, before the age of 16, as true military training. He was taught how to fight with a sword, but no way is it a substitute for real experience. There is only so much a 6 years old kid can assimilate. His "real training" probably didn't start until he hit puberty and was physically tall enough and strong enough to do it.  Also, at 16 years old, Adolin was not yet fully grown: nobody would think to oppose someone that age against a grown adult. Besides, there is a reason why modern days make the distinction in between the "junior category" and the "adult" one. Sure, there are kids which can compete with grown ups, but they typically aren't in fighting related discipline where age would make a difference, they tend to be in disciplines where growth would impact your performance such as gymnastic. It is a no brainer Adolin, at that age, no matter how talented, would have been at a disadvantage in any duels against a higher profile more experienced duelist. 

Also, many Shardbearers simply aren't allowed to wager their Shards for fear they may lose it, look at Jakamav which was forbidden to do so. I cannot fathom Dalinar would have given Adolin such authorization, especially considering his young age. It seems more probable he didn't explicitly forbid it as he probably didn't think his son would be impulsive enough to get into such a predicament, which lead to Adolin to do the unthinkable. However, once the duel was agreed upon, voiding it would have been difficult. If Adolin agreed to the terms and if he was considered old enough to do so, then there isn't much Dalinar could do. Istow made it clear Dalinar could not void the 4 on 1 duel: as long as both parties have consented to it, then it has to be carried on. I thus doubt Dalinar, even if he wanted to, could have prevented his son from fighting Tinalar. Also, considering how Dalinar views dueling, I seriously doubt he would have been pleased by it. He states in WoK how glad he was Adolin's duel was "only to one broken piece of Plate" as more was "dangerous for injuries". If Dalinar can be worried over his son, at 23, then imagine how he was when he was much younger and inexperienced. Shards also are immensely valuable: you don't just wager them because your honor was slighted. Adolin most likely acted very impulsively and shouldn't have agreed so such a fight, but Tinalar took advantage of his young age, his firebrand personality and his inexperience to land himself a duel he was convinced he would easily win.

Shards are just too valuable to waste them over petty issues such as "I insulted your father". A normal duel would have done, there was no need to drop the Shards in. The whole thing was probably a ploy: Tinalar wanted to humiliate Dalinar, to slight house Kholin and he probably resented a kid being given a Shardplate. Let's not forget Adolin's being given a Plate at 16 was an irregular situation: Sadeas comments on it. Most people probably felt the kid didn't deserve them, hence they try to win it form him.

Dalinar's reaction is never broached nor hinted nor mentioned, but based on how he reacts to his son impulsiveness, I certainly think he wouldn't have been pleased by it. You can't be happy to lose an advantage as huge as a Shardplate merely because your teenage son cannot control himself. 

2 hours ago, sheep said:

Adolin would probably wear a full body wetsuit on any beach photoshoot.  Only the Shattered Plains annual wet uniform contest would be something he would participate in, and then only unwillingly. :ph34r:

Kaladin is probably more fit than Adolin, but I wouldn't say Adolin's current physical state (minus the bruises and broken wrist) is a disadvantage in itself, maybe when compared to stormlight-fuelled tanks like Kaladin, but to other Shardbearers, Adolin in top form.  It is difficult for Shardbearers to learn to fight without Shards, but how often does that happen?  Shardbearers give up their shards when they die or get old enough to retire, so they never need to learn to fight without.  And even when Shardbearers do fight in Shardplate, they take it off as soon as the battle ends, as Jakamav does when he goes to drink wine.  Adolin and Elhokar are the weird ones for staying in their plate for up to and over 24 hours out of paranoia, because although they can't feel the weight of the Plate while wearing it, it is still a stuffy, closed metal sauna that you sweat continuously in.  Dehydration can be as exhausting as fatigue at the end of the day.  Up until the end of WoR, Adolin's only fights without Shardplate were with Szeth and Sadeas, he otherwise didn't fight against humans.  So up until then, he had no need to consider learning to fight without Shards, just as he probably never learned how to ride normal horses in Plate, or how to go a week without a bath.  Maybe things will change.

Gilbert courted another, and Anne courted another man but refused him.  Courting back then was just "walking out with a beau", just dates and nothing really intimate.  I thought it was romantic for Anne to realise that she loved him the whole time and never knew it, but yeah it was frustrating for readers and Gilbert in the friendzone.  But compared to other authors that follow the "loved him/her all along" plotline, Anne of Green Gables does it very well and they end up married for the long term.  There have been other stories where it just seems too forced, or too convenient, or just kind of unsatisfying and kind of gross at the end if someone says "I have loved you since you were a child" and he/she was in an adult in the story at the time.  :wacko:

You focus so much on Adolin that you forget that there are other cogs in the machine that are small, but still important.  There are plenty of normals who are happy being normal and don't resent their lives.  Navani has found her purpose, and it was proved to be useful, and I think she has the experience and motherly instincts enough to be able to help Adolin, since she understands what it's like to love someone that she can't be with because reasons.  There was never a good opportunity in the past since she had a grudge against Shallan because of Jasnah, and it forced Adolin to have to pick one over the other to spend time with, and he chose Shallan.

The bridgemen too - and the Bridge Four bodyguards have been around enough to be aware of the level of hate Adolin has for Sadeas, as one of them nodded to him after the confrontation in the chapter "Uncut Gems".  They're with him all the time, and after they saved his life in the Battle of Narak, Adolin stopped resenting them for invading his privacy and not being his dead Cobalt Guards.  They of all people would be the most likely to sympathise with his situation.

If everyone is getting something out of their relationship partner, what are they putting in?  I think that's the more important question.  What does Adolin contribute, and if his virtue is "being genuine", what does that mean when he's hiding the Sadeas secret and his public persona is a sham?

AH and right here you may have found the explanation as to why Adolin never learned how to swim: he was too shy to walk in public in his bathing suit :ph34r: I had wonder why Brandon drop this one on us... what is the purpose of hinting Adolin lack of abilities when it comes to water related activities?

I never stated Adolin's current physical state was anything put fit: I merely commented on his physical state compared to Kaladin. Based on what I have read, in between those two, I'd say Kaladin probably is a more complete athlete than Adolin: without the advantage of both stormlight and Shards, I'd think Kaladin would outlast Adolin which isn't to say Adolin wouldn't outlast a great deal many people.

How does one get forced to learn how to fight without Shards? Easy enough. Once every few years, there is a duel for Shards. Therefore, once every few years, someone loses his Shards to someone else. As a result, once every few years, there is one former Shardbearer which has to learn how to fight without them. It is a rare event, granted, but it has happened often enough for someone to comment on how hard it was. Shardplates are a huge advantage as they allow you strength, speed, protection without the inconvenient of a standard armor. I once read an article on how wearing an armor would seriously deflate your aerobic capacity because the weight on it prevents the blood from flowing right. It said the leg armors was a killer for this and any knight was in danger of dehydration and exhaustion whenever wearing one because the blood couldn't move back from the legs to the heart properly. Someone like Adolin, who never wore a regular armor, could probably not think about that and go on as he has always done only to run out of juice before the end. I have always thought book 3 was geared for Adolin to actually lose his Shards which would be a neat arc: seeing him trying to adapt would be interesting, but adapting to not take a bath for a week? Gee. You are asking for a lot, maybe if he gets thrown into jail for real it'll happen.

And Navani has also included Shallan within the chicks she feels she needs to protect. By the end of WoR, she had started to see Shallan as a surrogate daughter. Where would her alliance truly be? Do not forget everyone takes Adolin for someone he isn't quite, so when it fails apart what is Navani going to think? That Adolin is the culprit: he acted stupid and will probably resent him for it because it would come at the expense of someone she has started to dote on. Nobody ever wondered how Adolin may feel about things, I have to wonder if they are going to change that behavior in the near future.

As foe Bridge 4, while I certainly think they will secretly be glad Adolin killed Sadeas, their allegiance is to the Radiants, to Kaladin. Renarin is now part of their group, so if someone is to develop a deeper bonds with the bridgemen, it is him and not Adolin. He's already been setup for it.

What is Adolin contributing to the relationship? He is caring. He gives without counting. He is reliable and he puts others in front of himself, all the time. What Shallan would gain is someone who would care for her, the right way and would provide her, the peace she had so wanted as a child. Is it enough? I do not know. Adolin's contribution is certainly not being genuine... He isn't genuine. I love this quote BTW. It bluntly says how Adolin isn't as confident as he appears to be: he admits he is putting up a front because overs rely on him. He doesn't want to disappoint them or to break down the expectations they placed on them, so he sucks it up and pretends everything is fine. He projects an air of strength, he refuses to show weakness, but I think he is mixing up everything. What is true strength? Hiding your own weaknesses, pretending they do not exist or admitting you have them and work your way to be strong despite those?

Anne of Green Cables was written before tropes became tropes which is why it is so interesting: you can't accuse the author of lacking imagination and recycling old cliche. Besides, the childhood friends growing up to be lovers does have its charm, when it done properly. Agree though the adult man admitting he has been in love with a little girl all along simply it creepy. I do not want to read this.

2 hours ago, sheep said:

Jamie Fraser was a soldier too, with all those soldierly opportunities just like Adolin.  Jamie said he didn't want it because they were all prostitutes in poor condition and he was grossed out, and thought he had better standards than that.

Harry turned out commendably well for being an orphan who was abused throughout his formative years, surrounded by many terrible adult role models like all those DADA teachers, the secretive Dumbledore, and the manchild replacement-father Sirius Black.  Renarin is different from Harry Potter that he has no named antagonist figure like Snape or Draco, and Dalinar keeps people from ever becoming one, like Wit and his teasing.  The sheltering/hover-parenting in some instances can be more of a bad thing than a good thing, and it is enough to set Renarin apart from his peers like any bully could do.  Just look at what Petunia and Vernon Dursley's love did to Dudley Dursley.

Kaladin's childhood was different from the other children because Lirin was a light-touch discliplinarian.

Lirin raised Kaladin to understand why the rules were rules, and that involved questioning the establishment.  The intent was to create in Kaladin a rational and clear thinker, which would make him a better surgeon.  But it failed because Lirin was so lenient in encouraging Kaladin to independently conclude that saving lives through medicine was the right thing that Kaladin ended up formulating his personal moral code in another direction.  Kaladin can be too clever for his own good that he ends up shooting himself in the foot, which makes him unsuitable for being a foot soldier or a squadleader/sergeant, because they are roles that require obedience and discipline.  He would be good in a commando unit, or as an elite solo bodyguard as he is in WoR, but the role of a regular soldier is something he could never truly be happy with, even whilst he is discontent doing it and wishing for the good old days.  I do not think Kaladin could ever be really happy no matter what he does; it's just not in his character.  It would teach him humility and to be more considerate with people instead of lashing out, if he understood himself enough to admit it.

Even the people who sympathise with Szeth and admire his more positive qualities such as his determination know that it's fuelled by blind faith.  I do not think you need to sympathise with Szeth to enjoy SA.  It is likely that he gets an eventual death by redemption so it's better for you not to feel an attachment.  I personally don't bother to like every single character or protagonist I read.  Understanding their motivations and accepting their importance in creating an enjoyable story yes, but a personal attachment or empathy is very, very rare.  

Yes but unlike Adolin, Jaime never had the opportunity to court women from his own rank... I can't fault him for not wanting prostitutes, but we have to admit he didn't have much opportunity for true romance before Claire and even that was a marriage of convenience... At first it was.

I agree over-sheltering can destroy a child's self-esteem just as well as being abusive. If you allow your child to think his condition is a show stopper for everything while over-compensating by saying yes to his every whim as, the poor thing he has a disability, then you are spoiling this child's character. You tell him not only his disability is a handicap to be taken seriously, a true obstacle which cannot be breached, you are also telling him his angst, the sulkiness are completely warranted. You are telling this same child that yes, he is a victim and yes feeling like one, behaving like one is the right attitude which therefore explains why you are being lenient with him. You cannot go hard on him or have expectations for him because he already has to carry a disability... I don't mind characters with disabilities, they can make awesome stories, when they fight against it, when they refuse to let them stop them, when they use it as a mean to find creative ways to overcome their obstacles, but when all they do is complain over their uselessness? If you want to be a soldier, then go to this arena and start training, disability or not. Working with false Blades can't be that dangerous, even from someone prone to have fits. You insist they aren't as bad as people think? Good. Then prove it, but stop using it as an excuse to brood in your corner waiting for something magical to happen. Oh wait, this is exactly what happens! No matter I have so much trouble with Renarin...

I do think Kaladin was a poor soldier, good on the field, but terrible at following commands and having priorities which may clash with the army priorities. We see it when he was a squad leader. He thought his worth as a squad leader was directly linked to his ability to keep his men alive and he wondered why he wasn't send to the Shattered Plains... I think part of the reason may have been that while Kaladin had a good track record when it comes to casualties, he perhaps had a terrible one when it comes to meeting the objective of the fight. By devising his own strategies, he may have positions his squad in a non-standard position which perhaps caused all kinds of trouble. He certainly is more suited to the bodyguard job where he has no one to answer to except himself. It isn't such a bad thing, but it is obvious Kaladin doesn't do well in any position where he would be asked to take orders. I do not know what it would take for Kaladin to stop seeing himself as a victim and to stop thinking his own hardships gives him the right to look down on other people for failing at not having suffered enough for him to consider them worthy human beings. There is something troubling in Kaladin only being able to like Shallan after finding out she has suffered enough for him to feel sympathy......................

For my part, I do not consider blind faith as a quality, but as a serious flaw. It make me incapable of sympathizing with him because, from my perspective, all he had to do was to drop the stone and go about with his own life. I do not find the lever the Stone Shamaans had on him wasn't strong enough to warrant him going about slaughtering people. I thus cannot feel sympathy towards him. I agree his trajectory will likely be redemption through death, but he still remains a POV I dislike reading. His train of thoughts aren't something I find interesting because there is nothing in them I can find to relate to or to find endearing. 

I guess I simply prefer reading characters I can emphasize with to some extend: if true empathy is very rare, I typically find something to enjoy within each POV.

With Kaladin, I enjoy the fact, despite his depressed mood, he never gives up. He always try to find a solution and even if it is a bad one, he still tries. Even when beaten, he isn't completely beaten. His resilience is admirable. He also tends to have the best action scenes and quite frankly, I did root for him during the 4 on 1 duel.

With Shallan, I enjoy the fact she turned up being more pro-active I thought she would initially be. I recalled how unimpressed I was with her first chapter and how tedious I thought reading her would be as she kept shying away from taking any action. Ship-wrecking her has been the best decision Brandon could have take: he turned her into a meek character to a more action oriented one. I enjoyed her happy go lucky attitude and her refusal to admit defeat, her ingeniousness in trying to play all the hands she has and while her long string of successes has made many called a a "Mary-Sue" I personally think she's bitten more than she can chew and we'll see it happening in book 3.

With Dalinar, I enjoy the stern figure he has become, being the voice of reason among his quarreling kingdom and I certainly enjoy trying to figure how his rigidity is going to influence his sons. If present day Dalinar isn't my favorite POV, I am deeply curious about his past and for his 15 flashback chapters alone, I certainly think book 3 will be worth reading even if the 75 other chapters are garbage :ph34r:

I don't need to say what I enjoy about Adolin, I have been explicit enough about it :ph34r:

With Eshonai, I have more difficulties. I try to focus over learning about the Parshendis, but I find the rimes and the rhythms make the reading difficult. The "they attuned themselves to" may have been created to differentiate the species, but it doesn't work well for me. It makes her POV less interesting to read, not because I dislike her character, but I dislike how it is written. The character has potential, it is the way her POV has been written which causes me problem.

With Szeth however... Well I certainly do not mind a good antagonist or a good villain POV, but Szeth feels like a villain the author is trying to shove down my throat should be a hero, but it doesn't work for me because his flaw, blind faith, is not something I can relate to nor understand. Maybe I'll be surprised and Szeth story will truly amaze me, who knows, but right now I simply dislike reading his chapters as I find them boring. Agree I do not need to enjoy reading him, he has little enough POV it doesn't diminishes my enjoyment of the series, but I certainly dread book 5. 

7 hours ago, sheep said:

I've read and thought about it and concluded that Renarin's introversion, isolation, and lack of occupations/hobbies has led to him being focused on his own experience and preferences to the point of self-centeredness.  He can't participate in physical activities and doesn't devote himself to his other interests like fabrial science because if he can't be a soldier, he doesn't want to do anything else.  Nothing else would be good enough, and when he becomes a real soldier, fabrial science wouldn't help him much.  I think it was always a matter of time for Renarin; he can be so fixated that if he didn't get Dalinar's plate he would eventually directly demand to be a soldier or threaten to jump off a chasm, rather than continue to make offhand passive-aggressive comments about his uselessness.  And that's why you don't like him - Renarin swims in self-pity, and you prefer pro-active protagonists who wield their agency deliberately and with awareness.  

I still cannot understand why someone who is so poor at athletic could potentially enjoy in training to be a soldier... If anything, WoR made it obvious the reasons Renarin isn't a soldier isn't solely tied to his handicap: he simply isn't good at physical activity. He seems uncoordinated and Kaladin remarks how Moash got better with his Plate after a few days than Renarin after weeks. There is a fair chance, even without his handicap, Renarin would have failed at being a good soldier, simply because he is just not good at those things, in the same way Adolin is terrible at understanding abstract concepts. Typically, people don't enjoy devoting themselves to activities they aren't minimally good at.

I however agree his lack of stimulation, his introversion, his isolation and his absence of occupations has made him self-centered on his own personal needs. Well, knowing you have needs isn't a negative thing, but it can be when you end up focusing on only one path and, providing it fails, sulk endlessly over the fact it isn't possible. What I dislike about him is the fact he doesn't look for solutions to his problems, he merely sits there waiting for the answer to magically materialized itself. The fact it does make reading unsatisfactory, still from my perspective.

Yes his endeavors in trying to actually be a soldier are cute, but I always was ill-at-ease with him joining Bridge 4. I can't quite put my finger on why, but I have to admit he did try. Once he received the OK to try, he did his best, even if it didn't quite happened as he thought it would. He is also brave and resilient which are undeniable qualities, but I wish for his character to move out of the "I am a victim mode" to the "solution making mode". I can understand sulkiness and even passive/aggressive, but in the case of Renarin, it isn't offset by anything else to give the character a better balance. Maybe it is just because we haven't had his POV yet, I cannot say.

7 hours ago, sheep said:

Dalinar chose Leadership as his Calling, and Adolin chose Duelling.  Neither of them chose being a soldier.  The only thing required by Vorinism is excellence.  Renarin wants to be a soldier because it is the opportunity that was stripped from him by a fluke of genetics rather than a faith-based desire to get into Vorin heaven, no matter what he says.

He singlemindedly wants what he can't have because he thinks it will make him "normal" and "just like the other boys", and anything else (like a comfortable desk job) would be a consolation prize to remind him of how he wasn't good enough for "the real thing".  Other people who lack a disability would not be able to understand it.  So he passes it off as being pious, which people would be understand, even if they do not keep the faith as much as they think he does.  

You consciously picked up on Renarin's sulkiness, and if you have also noticed his secrecy and lack of transparency with others and himself (though this last one is due to lack of page time and PoV) this has helped to set him up as a character undeserving of your empathy.  

Yes, neither choose to be a soldier. Adolin even stated how he didn't want to be a soldier, how reluctant he was to be a soldier which is why Renarin's obsession over it rather bizarre. 

It may be he hasn't come to terms with the fact he has a disability. I find it strange considering he had it for many years, but I guess it is possible. I do agree he probably just wants to be more like Adolin, whom he admires and loves without any jealousy, a very rare trait. 

It isn't Renarin doesn't deserve my empathy, it merely is I haven't been given enough data on his character in order to truly sympathize with him. He doesn't have enough exposition for myself to truly get invested within his character nor can I truly understand his worth without one. I need to know if his thought process merely are "sulky" or if there is more to him. Unlike Szeth, I want to feel empathy towards Renarin because I actually do not dislike the character, he is just not someone I relate well to.

7 hours ago, sheep said:

 

  Reveal hidden contents

MWfOcPB.jpg

Lots of people don't like Laral because she wasn't very nice to Kaladin, but I kind of like her.  Her story is the one of the girl-next-door who got hot, and her motif colour is yellow, because she wears it the most often in story.  The dress design is a havah version of Madeline's dress from the animated tv show with the nuns, with open sleeves because Laral is young enough not to cover up, and it was a visual way to show how naive and innocent she was.  The bottom sketch is "Laral's farewell", because in that chapter it is where her engagement to Roshone is announced, and also when Kaladin and Tien are recruited into Amaram's army and they never see each other again.

The sad part is that Laral is pretty much the anti-Shallan.  She is the orphan girl from a good family that became poor, but unlike Shallan, Laral doesn't have Shallan's strength of will, precocious intelligence, creativity or determination.  Shallan killed her father and chased Jasnah by ship for 6 months, and when she didn't have suitable tutors for her education, she made up for it by studying on her own.  Laral, in a small rural town, had few education opportunities either, and fewer natural talents than Shallan, and therefore passively wished for a Shardbearer knight to come to her rescue.  Now you can see where "Shallan as a Mary Sue" character interpretations come from.

I like your Laral and to be fair, it isn't as if the girl had much choice on the matter. She was basically sold to Roshone and set up to marry his son. When he died, she was to marry him. I am sorry but she basically was a slave within her own household, her entire agency was removed from her and she certainly lacked the means to kill her torturer like Shallan did not to forget, unlike Shallan, she would have never gotten away with it.

Shallan presumably had much better tutors than Laral. She says her family was poor, but it was poor when comparing it to the highest ranked family: it was still richer than Laral's. Laral simply had nothing to hope for, to dream for other than having her childhood friend become a Shardbearer. It is quite sad actually as when Shallan was the same age, she was reading the work of Jasnah Kholin whom were given to her by her brother (I think). Laral had no brother to bring her books from the outside world.

I sincerely hope Laral found happiness within life after all, because her story is rather sad, when you think about it.

7 hours ago, sheep said:

The fun thing about drawing rich and frivolous lighteyes is that I can use all the impractical designs and fanciful colours as I want.  I find it interesting to combine Vorin modesty with elaborate designs - I figure that a young and wealthy Alethi girl would think it's fashion forward and alluring to cover everything up except for her face and her right arm, which reminds all the young men that there's another arm just like it.  

And Jakamav has a preference for the curvy girls, which Adolin lacks. :D

 

I love you curvy Inkima: it definitely befits her: the girl with the annoying laugh.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just ... WOW !!!!!!!!!!!!!
for that haunted look on Laral's face where she wears the bride's prayer.

Honestly, I didn't realize something like that was even possible in that kind of 'comic inspired' style.
(And I sure hope I'm not treading any dangerous ground here with that wording - I am such a non-artist :ph34r:)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 24/07/2016 at 2:57 AM, Rasarr said:

Storms, Sadeas' smile when he gloats over Oathbringer is creepy as hell :ph34r: Likewise Wit leaning over Renarin. Brrrr.

On another note, I believe I am starting to get repetitive in my praise for your work, so let me just note that your Gaz design is pretty much the same as how I imagined it. 

Sadeas has lusted over owning a Shardblade of his own for decades, and he's salty that Adolin in his first appearance in WoK had a Blade and he didn't.  So the fact that Sadeas managed to get a blade, and the blade he got was Dalinar's legendary Oathbringer, which makes it double priceless.  It's enough that he will sell the Bridgemen to Dalinar, which was a sore point to him, because he wanted to make honourable Dalinar look bad in front of his men.  Just imagine that in private he summons the Blade over and over in his bedroom, and whispers "MY PRECIOUS" to it.  

Wit is like thousands of years old.  I, and other Shard artists (I think it's better to use the portmanteau "Shardists" over "Shartists") interpret the description of him to be ambiguously 30-something, in the way that Wayne is a generically faced 30-something.  He may look on the skinny end of normal when you talk to him, but when you look him in the eye, there's some indication that he's seen some things.  I think that's where unintentional (or not) creepy face comes from, when people try to draw that.

 

 

On 24/07/2016 at 7:05 AM, maxal said:

I think you can differentiate a good story from a very good story by the strength of its secondary/minor characters. The best example of this I can actually come up with would be the Codex Alera which I recently read. While the story has undeniable qualities and it certainly is entertaining enough, it relies on a boring main protagonist bordering on perfection whom is surrounded by secondary main protagonists whom tend to be more interesting than him. It gets worst when you move onto the supporting cast as if these showed promises early on, it was never capitalized on and the story turned them into nothing more than lackeys having little agency of their own. The story thus felt unsatisfying, to me, because it lacked the depth other stories have, such as WoT which, despite its flaws, was certainly capable of reigning in a wide cast of interesting ans diverse characters: not many felt like lackeys.

Therefore, the mere fact SA has produced an interesting array of minor characters reader love to speculate/talk about de facto ranks it among the greatest. I do not like Wit nor Elhokar.

No author expects to make you like every single one of his or her characters.  It's just a fact of life that you will end up being ambivalent toward some of them, just like you can't be friends with every single person you meet.

I am doing this character design series of minor characters because they are like the acquaintances of the literary world, where the hero protagonists are the best friends 4 lyfe.  They are the kind of characters who are equivalent to people you pass on the street and don't think much about when they're gone.  And I think it's a bit more of a challenge when you only have a very vague idea of what they're like.  But still there is enough for me to be able to form an opinion on them and their personality, so Brandon has that going for him.

My favourite minor characters are probably Tyn and Jakamav.  I am aware that they are both not very nice people that I wouldn't want to have anything to do with if they were real people, but that makes them interesting.  It's the difference between characters in the soap opera genre versus slice of life.  I don't watch them because I see myself in them.  I just want to eat popcorn and laugh because Tyn is the SA version of a "bad role model big sister" and Jakamav is the head cheerleader.  Terrible people, but engaging drama - picturing them doing things and interacting with others is easy, so drawing them becomes easy.  People like Renarin are the boring ones.  

 

On 24/07/2016 at 7:05 AM, maxal said:

I have a hard time considering Adolin's training, before the age of 16, as true military training. He was taught how to fight with a sword, but no way is it a substitute for real experience. There is only so much a 6 years old kid can assimilate. His "real training" probably didn't start until he hit puberty and was physically tall enough and strong enough to do it.  Also, at 16 years old, Adolin was not yet fully grown: nobody would think to oppose someone that age against a grown adult. Besides, there is a reason why modern days make the distinction in between the "junior category" and the "adult" one. Sure, there are kids which can compete with grown ups, but they typically aren't in fighting related discipline where age would make a difference, they tend to be in disciplines where growth would impact your performance such as gymnastic. It is a no brainer Adolin, at that age, no matter how talented, would have been at a disadvantage in any duels against a higher profile more experienced duelist. 


I got the impression that if you bribed the judge very very generously, you could get a retraction on the witness statement and cancel a duel that way - without an official witness, a challenge would just be a matter of "he said, she said". Of course, the judge would have a bad reputation forever after, and it's pretty dishonourable by Alethi standards, but it would prevent someone wholly unprepared from being crippled in the duelling arena.  Being branded a coward is better when you're a Shardbearing coward.

Quote

“Yes or no?”
“Two days,” Relis snapped. “Here in the arena.” He looked to the highjudge. “You witness this?”
“I do,” she said.
Chapter 53, "Perfection", Words of Radiance


Dalinar makes Shardbearer duelling out to be way more dangerous than it actually is.  Is he just being very inflexible or very overprotective, in his regular Dalinar way?

Quote

According to the Codes, most duels should be avoided when Alethkar was at war. There was a fine line between sparring for practice and dueling another man for an insult, potentially leaving important officers wounded.
The winner would be the first one who completely shattered a section of the other’s Plate. That wasn’t too dangerous; weakened Plate could usually still rebuff a blow, even if it shattered in the process.
Chapter 58, "The Journey", Way of Kings

The way arena duels are fought is very civilised and no one fights to cripple unless they agree on the terms beforehand.  And since the way Shardbearing is taught emphasises control and knowing one's strength from day one, there would be little chance of a Shardbearer accidentally crippling another.  If it happens, it would be on purpose.  To me, it seems like a spectator would be more likely to be hurt in a duel than a Shardbearer, since shattering Shardplate looks like an explosion of ripping metal.

Dalinar could have just banned duelling for Shards the way it was banned for Jakamav, and also bans on duels where the winning condition isn't breaking X amount of Plate sections.  Duelling until forfeit (the way the 4-on-1 duel was fought) is serious.  Everything else is pretty tame.  But Dalinar.  "Unreasonable" is his middle name.:rolleyes:

According to the Codes, duels should be avoided in times of war.  When Adolin was 16, Dalinar was still Blackthorn, and he didn't care about the Codes, and they weren't at war.  So he wouldn't have had the moral dilemma about duelling back then, and he doesn't dote on Adolin (as of WoK/WoR) like he worries over Renarin's wellbeing, so any qualms (if he had any) about Adolin duelling as a kid would be based on the risk of losing Shards more than anything else.  Harsh, right?

 

On 24/07/2016 at 7:05 AM, maxal said:

How does one get forced to learn how to fight without Shards? Easy enough. Once every few years, there is a duel for Shards. Therefore, once every few years, someone loses his Shards to someone else. As a result, once every few years, there is one former Shardbearer which has to learn how to fight without them. It is a rare event, granted, but it has happened often enough for someone to comment on how hard it was. Shardplates are a huge advantage as they allow you strength, speed, protection without the inconvenient of a standard armor. I once read an article on how wearing an armor would seriously deflate your aerobic capacity because the weight on it prevents the blood from flowing right. It said the leg armors was a killer for this and any knight was in danger of dehydration and exhaustion whenever wearing one because the blood couldn't move back from the legs to the heart properly. Someone like Adolin, who never wore a regular armor, could probably not think about that and go on as he has always done only to run out of juice before the end. I have always thought book 3 was geared for Adolin to actually lose his Shards which would be a neat arc: seeing him trying to adapt would be interesting, but adapting to not take a bath for a week? Gee. You are asking for a lot, maybe if he gets thrown into jail for real it'll happen.


Without Shardplate, a Shardbearer instantly gets demoted to an infantryman.  And since standard Alethi infantry wields spears because most of them are darkeyes and can't use swords, that's a pretty big demotion.  I would have thought that anyone who loses their Shards would retire from battle, or at least change their tactical approach so that they don't actually have to unlearn anything.  Cavalry and archery is open to lighteyed men, or they could just be a behind-the-lines commander rather than in the front line.  Unlearning anything is difficult, especially if you're a 30 year old seasoned veteran, and having Shardbearer training drilled into you when you have no Shards is more of a liability than a benefit.  I could see Adolin without Shards assigned to being a tactical commander than a front-liner, just as he could be a good Highprince or King if it came down to it.  Perhaps it makes for a boring plot, but they are worthy positions that suit his abilities more than an Ardent or a citylord suit Renarin.  

Adolin is one of Navani's baby chickens too, for longer than Shallan.  She has been motherly to him and Renarin since WoK, when Dalinar was still giving her the cold shoulder.  I think you are seeing too much on the negative side than what is likely to happen.  Sure, going in with low or negative expectations means you tend to come out with less disappointments, but it really is a depressing way to look at things.  For instance, Shallan with her involvement with Mraize and the whole Ghostbloods sideplot is going to be keeping secrets, and off doing things on her own wihtout supervision or wanting people looking over her shoulders - not even her brothers, when they reunite for the first time in almost a year.  Navani, though she's probably not the one with the greatest relationship advice, has more experience in these things than anyone else that Adolin is comfortable talking to.  With Kaladin out of the picture, and Renarin busy exploring his Radiant powers, Bridge Four might be more of a support system to Adolin than to anyone else.  They are Kaladin's men, but Kaladin went away to Hearthstone/Kholinar, and Kaladin always kept himself distant from most of the bridgement apart from the named lieutenants like Rock, Sigzil, Teft and Moash.  Adolin since the beginning of WoR has shown some relationship progression with them.  I could see it developing further.

Quote

Those two insufferable bridgemen followed along behind him. Not that Adolin minded the men personally—they seemed like amiable enough fellows, particularly when away from their commander. Adolin just didn’t like needing minders.
Chapter 50, "Uncut Gems", Words of Radiance

Adolin was annoyed by them and their eavesdropping on his dates but he ended up appreciating and valuing them by the end.  He probably wouldn't bond with them like a chasm scene would do, but they are people who understand what it's like to be the sidekick to the hero, without superpowers but still doing the best they can.  

I actually went back to Anne of Green Gables (and you can read it online for free because the copyright has expired, btw) and after reading it, I have come to the conclusion that if Anne was an SA character, she would be a Lightweaver.  She brings so much happiness to Avonlea with the power of imagination.  The Radiant order is so perfectly fitting for her.  Regarding the age gap, my most recent cringe was reading a romance novel where the main character, when she was 8 years old, loudly declared that she would marry a boy whom she was crushing on (he was 17)  when she was grown up.  And they get engaged when she is 18 and he is 27.  I love childhood crushes becoming romance, don't get me wrong, but this was a bit much for me.  Honestly, anyone I liked when I was under 15 years old I now realise would be horribly unsuited to my preferences today.  And that is why YA romances appeal to me less and less as the years go by.  Most of them would appeal to 15-year-old me, but now they make me roll my eyes.:rolleyes:  (Gosh I really love this smiley)

 

On 24/07/2016 at 7:05 AM, maxal said:

I do think Kaladin was a poor soldier, good on the field, but terrible at following commands and having priorities which may clash with the army priorities. We see it when he was a squad leader. He thought his worth as a squad leader was directly linked to his ability to keep his men alive and he wondered why he wasn't send to the Shattered Plains... I think part of the reason may have been that while Kaladin had a good track record when it comes to casualties, he perhaps had a terrible one when it comes to meeting the objective of the fight. By devising his own strategies, he may have positions his squad in a non-standard position which perhaps caused all kinds of trouble. He certainly is more suited to the bodyguard job where he has no one to answer to except himself. It isn't such a bad thing, but it is obvious Kaladin doesn't do well in any position where he would be asked to take orders. I do not know what it would take for Kaladin to stop seeing himself as a victim and to stop thinking his own hardships gives him the right to look down on other people for failing at not having suffered enough for him to consider them worthy human beings. There is something troubling in Kaladin only being able to like Shallan after finding out she has suffered enough for him to feel sympathy......................

Jamie's rank was uncertain with his uncles being leaders of the Clan Mackenzie.  It was more convenient for him to not do anything which might produce an heir and put the succession into question.  Whereas for Adolin, it would be very useful if he were to produce an heir as soon as possible when people don't think Dalinar will live past book 5.

Kaladin makes a good squadleader when there are few enough men for him to know each one personally, enough to know their strengths and weaknesses and tailor the squad's tactics to fit that.  He would make for a terrible commander or general, because he wants to protect people so much.  That is what makes him different from Ender Wiggin (though no one who is not Mazer Rackham can be anything like Ender).  Ender's lesson that he learned is that sometimes you have to make sacrifices to fulfill the winning conditions, and that goes against the whole "journey before destination" thing - which is idealistic, but sometimes not realistic.  Good thing not everyone becomes a Radiant, right?  Protecting people and saving lives is what Kaladin does, and that is enough to make him disobey the orders, which throws the whole big-picture plan down the toilet.  It's well-meaning, but nearsighted, and he is just too pure and morally white for a world where things are fifty shades of grey.  And that is why people love Kaladin, because you know he's unambiguously good, but I personally like the more pragmatic characters.  Their internal conflicts, if they question their morality, is so much more interesting.

Ugh, Kaladin and his "suffering is a contest and don't bother competing because I win" attitude is as off-putting in the same way that you don't like Renarin's moping about.  If Kaladin meets Laral in Hearthstone in SA3, and he is mean to her because she's a lighteyes and lighteyes do not know the meaning of adversity, I will be extremely disappointed.  

For someone who is more of a character reader than a world-building or magic system reader, I am strangely neutral to the main characters than most.  I don't really like most of them, nor do I hate them, I just think of them as tools in the plot and they have to be very interesting to catch my attention.  None of the main "flashback" characters of the first 5 books make me super immersed; for me it is the character interactions rather than the character personalities that make me want to keep reading.  I'm probably weird that way.  I just care more about what they do than who they are.  Character development is great and all, but how does that affect the action and the overall plot arc?  Malta Vestrit's becoming less self-centred led to dragons returning to the world.  I want to see what cool things other characters are capable of.

 

On 24/07/2016 at 7:05 AM, maxal said:

I still cannot understand why someone who is so poor at athletic could potentially enjoy in training to be a soldier... If anything, WoR made it obvious the reasons Renarin isn't a soldier isn't solely tied to his handicap: he simply isn't good at physical activity. He seems uncoordinated and Kaladin remarks how Moash got better with his Plate after a few days than Renarin after weeks. There is a fair chance, even without his handicap, Renarin would have failed at being a good soldier, simply because he is just not good at those things, in the same way Adolin is terrible at understanding abstract concepts. Typically, people don't enjoy devoting themselves to activities they aren't minimally good at.


I think we feel similar things about Renarin.  I don't dislike him, but like you, I just don't feel empathy with him or his situation.  I don't go out of my way to force myself to feel empathy for him, nor do I feel regret or disappointment that I do not like him as much as some other people do.  Sure, it sucks to be disabled in a family where no one else has the same disability, and be in a society where it's stigmatised in terms of social interaction and relgious dogma to be anything other than perfectly fit and ready to defend Heaven from Voidbringer demons.  But I find Renarin ... boring.  To me, he is one of the hardest characters to picture and draw because in my head, I can't easily frame an image in my mind of him doing things.  Because he doesn't do many things.  He is a passive character, instead of active.  He fades into the background.  He is mentioned in one or two lines to establish his presence in a scene by a PoV character, and then completely forgotten.  That might be some magical Illumination surgebinding going on, or it could be that Renarin is just so boring that people's eyes glaze over and they stop noticing him.  He has few hobbies, and they are informed instead of shown on-screen (the difference between show and tell, pretty much).  He has very little physical description other than slender and speaking slowly, and being "proper".  It's just hard to understand him unless you keep up to date with all the WoB's and personally empathise with his disabilities because you are aware of what exactly they are.  

At this point I think that Renarin is one of those characters who is on his journey to character development, and hasn't gotten to the end yet, and that is why his characterisation feels so ... incomplete.  He wants to be a soldier, becomes a soldier for the first time in his life, and the next part of the plot would be realising that he doesn't actually like soldiering, and realising it wasn't as good as he thought it would be.  But his story so far ended at WoR and so we haven't seen the end, and what we have now is unsatisfying.  But that is okay, it's only a matter of time for now.

In the meantime, we can relieve our frustration by reading stories that have complete character arcs.  Since you finished Eagle of the Ninth, Marcus had similar problems.  He couldn't be a soldier, when he had wished to be a career legionnaire his entire life, and after his injury, he found something else to do.  He became an oculist and saved lives that way, even though it wasn't super exciting.  That is why I enjoyed the book so much.  When people find a simple life satisfying and fulfilling, that is what I call a good ending.  Not everyone has to save the world to be a good person.  Just don't be boring and passive.  That is all I want. -_-

 

On 24/07/2016 at 7:05 AM, maxal said:

I like your Laral and to be fair, it isn't as if the girl had much choice on the matter. She was basically sold to Roshone and set up to marry his son. When he died, she was to marry him. I am sorry but she basically was a slave within her own household, her entire agency was removed from her and she certainly lacked the means to kill her torturer like Shallan did not to forget, unlike Shallan, she would have never gotten away with it.

The difference between Laral and Shallan is that Shallan had so many more opportunities and advantages, including having more family wealth, and more of a support system in the form of her brothers.  Because she had brothers, Shallan was more willing to take risks to save them, to leave the known comforts of an estate she rarely left and endanger her own life.  She had people to protect.

Laral was alone in the world after her father died, and she didn't have Shallan's inquistive scholar's mind, or artistic skill, which are incredibly advantageous because they are the perfect Vorin womanly virtues that make a woman attractive as a wife.  She had no agency, I agree, and no choice, and no opportunities, which makes her the anti-Shallan, who had these things for narrative convenience.  

Shallan's life sucked, I don't deny that, but Shallan had the chance to get out of it.  Laral didn't, and she had no Jasnah Kholin as a childhood dream to chase, to become a teacher or mentor.  Shallan got Jasnah, Tyn, Palona, Iyatil, and then Navani as female mentors.  Laral's only alternative to marrying Roshone was running away and becoming a tenner in the city, equivalent to Gaz's desertion from Sadeas's army.  If Gaz didn't have a patroness or benefactor in the form of Shallan, he would be a nameless mercenary/bandit languishing in obscurity and mediocrity just like city tenners would.  

And that is sad.

 

On 24/07/2016 at 7:26 AM, Erklitt said:

Just ... WOW !!!!!!!!!!!!!
for that haunted look on Laral's face where she wears the bride's prayer.

Honestly, I didn't realize something like that was even possible in that kind of 'comic inspired' style.
(And I sure hope I'm not treading any dangerous ground here with that wording - I am such a non-artist :ph34r:)

If you ever watch animated cartoons (especially the classic Disney ones from the 1990's) in slow motion, you will be able to see how expressive they are.  If you pause anywhere when a character is talking, you can see what they feel, beyond the dialogue.  That is the level of emotiveness that I aspire to recreate, the kind of expressions where the audience can understand what emotion I want to represent just with a quick glance.  Of course, there is only so much I can do with a static image, but I try.  And when people notice, that is always a good thing - it means that all my practice and obsessiveness in trying to capture a moment and shove it into a 2D sketch made of flat lines on a flat screen was effective.

It's the same thing that a lot of graphic novels and webcomics try to do, but they have panels and panels of context to set the scene and the mood.  If my visual "message" in the form of one random sketch got across so that a non-artist can appreciate it, then I feel extremely flattered.  Thank you.  It makes me feel that what I am doing is "working".

 

 


 

Art time

 

Character design - Helaran Davar

Quote

“I’ve missed your drawings,” Helaran said. “I think you could be very good, Shallan. You should practice more.”
Chapter 19, "Safe Things", Words of Radiance

 

Spoiler

NyPjwx0.jpg


What do Veden noblemen wear?  Helaran is the oldest brother, and described as a man where Balat and Jushu and Wikim were boys.  But he still died pretty young, early 20's I think, with a young man's temper and hotheadedness, so I wanted to keep some of that.  His colouring (hair and skin) is slightly darker than Shallan's because she stayed indoors most of the time due to her clingy father, but I kept the same colour palette.  I don't know exactly how Horneater-blooded Vedens differ from Vedens closer to the Alethi genetics, I coloured him close to how Earth gingers look when they get some sun.  The top picture is Helaran giving Shallan a sketchbook, and the bottom one is Helaran confronting Lin Davar and summoning his Shardblade, which is the same design I used in older Amaram drawings.  Because they're the same Blade!!

As a note about Rosharan fashion, military-style coats and jackets are considered fashionable for modern Vorin men.

Quote

The men entering or leaving the building wore military-style Vorin coats and stiff trousers, buttons up the sides and ending in a stiff collar that wrapped the entire neck.
Chapter 3, "City of Bells", Way of Kings

I draw this as structured, tailored-looking jackets.  The buttons are frog buttons, or toggle and loop buttons.  The frumpy, traditional older men wear robes and manskirts (takama or ulatu), and some mix and match to make a fashion statement, as Aladar does.  While every character has a different costume design based on where I think they fall on the fashionable-and-frumpy spectrum, I try to keep the basic design elements consistent.  If you noticed, have a thumbs up from me.

 

 

Character design - Moash

Quote

Kaladin grabbed Moash by one arm and heaved, pulling with all his strength. Moash stumbled to his feet. He was a younger man, perhaps near Kaladin’s age, and had a hawkish face.
“Storm off!” Moash snapped, pulling his arm back.
Kaladin punched Moash right in the gut, where he knew it would wind him.
Chapter 14, "Payday", Way of Kings

Quote

Kaladin lurched to a stop, but Moash wasn’t done. He stepped forward and slammed an armored fist into Kaladin’s gut.
Kaladin gasped, folding as things broke inside of him. Ribs snapped like twigs before that impossibly strong fist. Kaladin coughed, spraying blood across Moash’s armor.
Chapter 84, "The One Who Saves", Words of Radiance

 

Spoiler

OMxKMPn.jpg


Moash is a hard one.  He's almost universally disliked, because he's like a Kaladin-lite, without the redeeming qualities, and he only appears in a handful of chapters.  Well, I used what I was given, and so I drew him as someone in his early 20's, not far from Kaladin's age, which is why Kaladin tried so hard to be friends with him.  Scruffy hair as a bridgeman that only got slightly neater after becoming a bodyguard, no tattoos, and no smiling.  Isn't it interesting that the first time Kaladin talked to Moash, he punched him, and Moash's farewell was a punch?  (And Kaladin's hair - the plot demands that it blows dramatically in the wind every time he says something cool and oathy, even if he is indoors or in jail.)

I don't know what one of Sadeas's portable bridges looks like, but I think it is has been discussed in past threads.  I drew it as curved with supports running along the bottom for reinforcement, because arches are way stronger than flat surfaces, and cavalry horses cross these things two at a time.  In my head, when the bridgemen carry their bridges, it sort of looks like a bunch of men walking a giant canoe.  When it is properly carried (which is not depicted in my sketch), the men have their heads underneath, with the edge resting on the outer shoulder vest padding, so only the bridge captain at the front centre can see where they're going.  And that is why my version of the bridgeman's uniform vest looks the way it does.  

 

 

Character design - Sebarial

Quote

Dalinar turned toward a plump, bearded man in traditional clothing—an open-fronted robe over a loose shirt and warrior’s skirt, called a takama. Highprince Sebarial, Shallan thought. Jasnah’s notes dismissed him as obnoxious and useless. She’d had kinder words even for Highprince Sadeas, whom she had noted was not to be trusted.
Chapter 38, "The Silent Storm", Words of Radiance

Quote

Sebarial raised a cup of wine toward Dalinar. “Hope you don’t mind,” Sebarial said. “We liberated your stores. They were blowing past at the time, headed for certain doom.”
Dalinar stared at them. Palona even had a novel out and was reading.
Chapter 86, "Patterns of Light", Words of Radiance

 

Spoiler

dAc03No.jpg

Sebarial makes a likeable impression in most readers' eyes.  To me, he was the "friendly wizard" type, or "the good grandpa" even though he might be mean on the outside and yell at kids to get off his lawn.  His house is a fancy mansion when other people like Dalinar live in practical but ugly highstorm bunkers, so I designed him as someone who likes good living.  His robe is traditional and old-fashioned, but it gets lots of elaborate embroidery, and if you ever tried doing this by hand, you would know how much labour goes into that.  The curly design on the edges of his robe are supposed to evoke the House Sebarial glyphpair of the the swirly sky eel, and his house colours are black and yellow.

The top picture is Shallan lightweaving the first time she meets Sebarial, and he thinks she's 25.  The bottom is Palona and Sebarial during the Battle of Narak.  As a Herdazian, I drew Palona darker, and she has those sparkflicker rock-like fingernails.  She also wears a safe glove instead of a safe sleeve.

 

 

 

Adolin and Jakamav

Quote

“Being seen with you isn’t good for one’s reputation these days, Adolin,” Jakamav said. “Your father and the king aren’t particularly popular.”
“It will all blow over.”
“I’m sure it will,” Jakamav said. “So let’s . . . wait until then, shall we?”
Adolin blinked, the words hitting him harder than any blow on the battlefield. “Sure,” Adolin forced himself to say.
“Good man.” Jakamav actually had the audacity to smile at him and lift his cup of wine.
Chapter 26, "The Feather", Words of Radiance

I drew two versions of this, a black-and-white to match the other sketchy pics I posted earlier, and a coloured one.  I kinda like the b&w one better, but what do you guys think?

 

Black and white

Spoiler

dL3d8tF.jpg

 

Colour

Spoiler

lU6VCsV.jpg


This is that scene after Jakamav and Adolin have a plateau battle on a rock formation that looks like a tiered wedding cake, but by the time they get to the top, Eshonai has already taken the gemheart.  Jakamav changes into his street clothes, and drinks wine in his tent.  Adolin has to sit on the floor because Shardplate is too heavy for chairs.  In my mind, Shardplate makes its wearer look bulky and imposing, so I wanted to show the size difference between a Shardbearer and a normal person.  I think that's something that fan artists have difficulty showing - to me, other people's drawings of Shardplate make it either look too small and thin, like it's skintight (think Power Ranger suits or Cybermen from Doctor Who).  It's not, since Shardbearers wear other clothes underneath.  Or they make it look too big, like it's a giant robot exoskeleton and not like there's a regular person underneath the magic shell.  Finding that perfect sweet spot right in the middle is hard.  I have trouble with it all the damnation time.

I decided that Jakamav's favourite colour is green because you can paint Shardplate any colour you like, and his is green.  So that is why he wears green a lot.  Since emeralds are the most valuable Soulcasting gem, green is probably associated with wealth in Roshar, so it makes it more fitting.  

 

 


Something silly now.  Yeah I know, it's really stupid.

Adolin and Jakamav part 2

Spoiler

pBOAk8R.jpg

What would Adolin's Facebook page be like?  
He and Shallan would share cute pictures of baby animals that make Kaladin block them on his newsfeed.  They both have couples photos as their profile picture.  Adolin posts pictures of his duelling trophies in his status updates and uses them as his cover photo.  When he wins too many, he gets unfriended, and the only people who like his statuses after that are Dalinar, Renarin and Shallan.  

Adolin pretends not to care. :(

btw the "1173" refers to the year.  They use Vorin years, not Earth years.

 

 

Thanks for reading my wall of text.

And sorry I am taking a while to update this thread, to everyone who stalks follows this.  Normally I draw things before bed as a way to relax before going to sleep (it's very calming for me to slowly turn my brain off thinking mode while I sketch), but this week I've been so tired that I just went straight to bed. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, sheep said:

Sadeas has lusted over owning a Shardblade of his own for decades, and he's salty that Adolin in his first appearance in WoK had a Blade and he didn't.  So the fact that Sadeas managed to get a blade, and the blade he got was Dalinar's legendary Oathbringer, which makes it double priceless.  It's enough that he will sell the Bridgemen to Dalinar, which was a sore point to him, because he wanted to make honourable Dalinar look bad in front of his men.  Just imagine that in private he summons the Blade over and over in his bedroom, and whispers "MY PRECIOUS" to it.  

Wit is like thousands of years old.  I, and other Shard artists (I think it's better to use the portmanteau "Shardists" over "Shartists") interpret the description of him to be ambiguously 30-something, in the way that Wayne is a generically faced 30-something.  He may look on the skinny end of normal when you talk to him, but when you look him in the eye, there's some indication that he's seen some things.  I think that's where unintentional (or not) creepy face comes from, when people try to draw that.

Considering the fact Wayne is canonically 30-something, I'd say the representation is accurate. -_- I absolutely agree Sadeas would cherish Oathbringer which, by all means, already was a popular and famous Shardblade prior to Dalinar bonding it. 

2 hours ago, sheep said:

No author expects to make you like every single one of his or her characters.  It's just a fact of life that you will end up being ambivalent toward some of them, just like you can't be friends with every single person you meet.

I am doing this character design series of minor characters because they are like the acquaintances of the literary world, where the hero protagonists are the best friends 4 lyfe.  They are the kind of characters who are equivalent to people you pass on the street and don't think much about when they're gone.  And I think it's a bit more of a challenge when you only have a very vague idea of what they're like.  But still there is enough for me to be able to form an opinion on them and their personality, so Brandon has that going for him.

My favourite minor characters are probably Tyn and Jakamav.  I am aware that they are both not very nice people that I wouldn't want to have anything to do with if they were real people, but that makes them interesting.  It's the difference between characters in the soap opera genre versus slice of life.  I don't watch them because I see myself in them.  I just want to eat popcorn and laugh because Tyn is the SA version of a "bad role model big sister" and Jakamav is the head cheerleader.  Terrible people, but engaging drama - picturing them doing things and interacting with others is easy, so drawing them becomes easy.  People like Renarin are the boring ones.

 No author expects it, but a good author will try to give life to every character, even the minor ones as of those feels like cardboard and vessels for one characteristic, the the world-building ends up feeling flatter. Too many authors disregard the importance of crafting good characters, instead insisting on focusing solely on plot advancement and world-building artifacts. A good author certainly do not expect his readers to like every single characters, but they'd rather you felt something for them even if it is a negative emotion. The worst would be being indifferent and/or not care about the characters: it then shows the author has failed to convey the proper emotions to the readers.

This being said, I do think authors can sometimes be surprised their readers reactions. Did Jordan know Mat would become the fan's favorite character as opposed to Rand, the main protagonist and hero of the story? Did he? In the case of Brandon, based on the several readings I have made of his interviews/answers, I do think he is over-estimating the popularity of Renarin as a character. Why else would he see fit to specifically address himself to the Renarin's fans out there, warning them he was not allowed to have more than an occasional POV going into book 3? Why didn't he see fit to address himself to the, more numerous, Adolin's fans out there to re-assure them he was indeed getting an interesting role or something? He said nothing about Adolin in any of his SA3 updates, but he talked about Renarin. While I do not know the exact reasons, I think we may be faced with a case where the author is wrongly reading the expectations of his readership. 

This being said, yes, Renarin is a boring character to me as well. Yes he has a disability, a hardship, but instead of making him an interesting character, it made him a rather passive one, having little interaction with others and , more importantly, a character too centered on his own self to be interesting to readers not sharing a similar hardships. He is hard to emphasize with, but at the same time, he doesn't have the villain aura of a Tyn or a Jakamav. Therefore readers are left with not knowing how to deal with him: they can't hate him because he isn't a villain, they can't root for him because he isn't doing anything worth rooting for except perhaps loving his brother, they can't relate to him unless they share his specific ordeal, they love him because he doesn't accomplish anything. He isn't bland, but it is hard to have a reaction to him other than: he is boring, which is followed by: "What he is a major character? But he is so boring to read!". Hence you've got quite a few threads of people wondering what it is with the Renarin love and/or the Renarin bashing. 

I personally hated Tyn and I was glad she died. I also hate Jakamav, but I wish to read more of him because he serves as a good antagonist to Adolin. In other words, hehas potential as a bad guy, perhaps not an evil one, but definitely someone who opposes our heroes. It makes him interesting. Other interesting minor characters would be Amaram and Reddin, the Jah Keved king's bastard. He made a strong impression on me during his few selected scenes. I also loved the Marie-Antoinette vibe we got from Aseduan, thus making her one of those characters I may enjoy hating. 

3 hours ago, sheep said:

I got the impression that if you bribed the judge very very generously, you could get a retraction on the witness statement and cancel a duel that way - without an official witness, a challenge would just be a matter of "he said, she said". Of course, the judge would have a bad reputation forever after, and it's pretty dishonourable by Alethi standards, but it would prevent someone wholly unprepared from being crippled in the duelling arena.  Being branded a coward is better when you're a Shardbearing coward.


Dalinar makes Shardbearer duelling out to be way more dangerous than it actually is.  Is he just being very inflexible or very overprotective, in his regular Dalinar way?

The way arena duels are fought is very civilised and no one fights to cripple unless they agree on the terms beforehand.  And since the way Shardbearing is taught emphasises control and knowing one's strength from day one, there would be little chance of a Shardbearer accidentally crippling another.  If it happens, it would be on purpose.  To me, it seems like a spectator would be more likely to be hurt in a duel than a Shardbearer, since shattering Shardplate looks like an explosion of ripping metal.

Dalinar could have just banned duelling for Shards the way it was banned for Jakamav, and also bans on duels where the winning condition isn't breaking X amount of Plate sections.  Duelling until forfeit (the way the 4-on-1 duel was fought) is serious.  Everything else is pretty tame.  But Dalinar.  "Unreasonable" is his middle name.:rolleyes:

Perhaps you can bribe the judge high enough to annul a duel without consequences, but it would be dishonorable to do so, not to mention it would bring shame to the "coward" having needed his "daddy" to get him out of trouble. Dalinar may not dote on Adolin as he does on Renarin and he may be more cavalier with his oldest son's life than he should, but I still do not think he would have purposefully destroyed his teenage's son self-esteem by intervening in this specific duel. It could also be someone like Gavilar talked him out of it, who knows? I am however more or less convinced Dalinar would not have looked favorably upon Adolin endangering his Shardplate in a duels for Shards when he was just a beginner. While he was not following the Codes back then, the still thrived on honor and it is safe to assume he reasonably thought his son would merely fight his way up he ranks, not that he would take on of the of the top dogs right away.

It is hard to know if Dalinar's feelings upon dueling dangers are justified or not. Based on what we hae seen, they seem inoffensive, but have we gotten the right impression? Yenev was killed in a duel... I'd say there is certainly a lot of Dalinar's inflexibility, some over-protectiveness there may be some truth to it as well. It may also be being crippled by a Shardblade is more probable within a duel than being injured by a spearman Parshendi during a gem hunt... 

Accidentally crippling? No. Purposefully crippling? Yes. This may have happened more than we would think. Elit tried it with Adolin, but he was no match. It may have happened before. 

Dalinar tends to be unreasonable, but what has he truly seen in his years? Maybe there is more to dueling than Adolin's placid fights. Maybe when the fights are more even, the risks are higher. Adolin just never met his match in the arena yet. As for the ban, it wasn't so much for the danger he banned it, it is he disapproves of people fighting for pleasure and for rank when there is a war outside. By all means he should feel the same towards hunting, but it was meant for Elhokar... so he got lenient.

3 hours ago, sheep said:

According to the Codes, duels should be avoided in times of war.  When Adolin was 16, Dalinar was still Blackthorn, and he didn't care about the Codes, and they weren't at war.  So he wouldn't have had the moral dilemma about duelling back then, and he doesn't dote on Adolin (as of WoK/WoR) like he worries over Renarin's wellbeing, so any qualms (if he had any) about Adolin duelling as a kid would be based on the risk of losing Shards more than anything else.  Harsh, right?

He still cared about honor... and he probably did care about that Shardplate. Harsh? Yes, you are harsh, but it is consistent with the Dalinar we have so far seen: he has been willing to risk his son's life to achieve his goals more than he has been willing to risk's anyone else's life. I don't personally think it is a conscious behavior as I certainly think shall something happen to Adolin, Dalinar would grief more than if it happened to anyone else. I think Dalinar needed a tool and Adolin was the perfect one. As his son and heir, he demands more of him than out of anyone else. He know no balance, but on the day something starts to give, I bet Dalinar will be severely emotionally impacted.

In other words, Adolin is the one he is the hardest with, he is the one he asks the most of, he is the one which hardly ever gets fatherly interactions, he is the one Dalinar has been willing to put at the most risk (he demands of Adolin what he would not demand out of any of his soldiers) but he also is the one Dalinar would grief the most for. He is the one Dalinar would feel the most guilty shall something happen to him and he is the one Dalinar would never forgive himself shall true harm come his way.

I think Dalinar father to son interactions with his eldest son are very complicated and much of it is based on perception, demands, responsibility, duty and orders and not enough is based on real trust and respect. Had Dalinar truly respected Adolin, as the majority of the readers seem to think, then he wouldn't have ask perfect obedience out of him. You don't ask obedience out of someone you trust, enforcing your own ideas on them, you let them free to take their own decisions because you trust they will make the right one. Dalinar doesn't trust Adolin will choose the right path, therefore he forces him into the one he thinks is the only right one. This simply isn't trust, it is fear his own son may still grow into the ghost of the Blackthorn.

I will thus say yet another very unpopular comment: Dalinar does not trust Adolin as much as he should, nor does he respects his son's identity, preferring to enforce those he sees as more suitable,

3 hours ago, sheep said:

Without Shardplate, a Shardbearer instantly gets demoted to an infantryman.  And since standard Alethi infantry wields spears because most of them are darkeyes and can't use swords, that's a pretty big demotion.  I would have thought that anyone who loses their Shards would retire from battle, or at least change their tactical approach so that they don't actually have to unlearn anything.  Cavalry and archery is open to lighteyed men, or they could just be a behind-the-lines commander rather than in the front line.  Unlearning anything is difficult, especially if you're a 30 year old seasoned veteran, and having Shardbearer training drilled into you when you have no Shards is more of a liability than a benefit.  I could see Adolin without Shards assigned to being a tactical commander than a front-liner, just as he could be a good Highprince or King if it came down to it.  Perhaps it makes for a boring plot, but they are worthy positions that suit his abilities more than an Ardent or a citylord suit Renarin.  

There are other positions within the army than infantry men and Shardbearer: without them Adolin would become a regular knight, wearing a regular armor and using a lighteyed sword, much like Amaram did before he stole Shards from Kaladin. Of course, as a regular knight, Adolin would need to adjust his commanding type, thus becoming a behind the line commander as opposed to a front liner. However, just as Kaladin would make a terrible general due to his strong focus on his men's individuality and his reluctance to put them at risk, Adolin would make a terrible behind the line general as he would feel guilty he isn't out there fighting. He'd feel as a coward and useless. Hwe understands tactics, but he doesn't want to see his men go to their death while he is safely away: he'll go into hell with them because he sees it as his task as a commander. Hence, Shardless Adolin would probably endanger himself greatly or end up withering away in a role which does not suit him. He'd get PTSD much faster as a behind the line commander than while fighting onto the front line because the former would demand of him to see there, being useless, unable to act, to fight, while the later allows him to keep his agency. Adolin doesn't deal well with situation where he can't act: he hates being a spectator.

I don't think Adolin would push the positions away, but I think he'll think he isn't accomplishing enough through them. He's still feel responsible for every single death and not having had the possibility to single-handily stop them would weight on him.

I also think Adolin would be profoundly sad and unhappy as either a Highprince or a King. 

3 hours ago, sheep said:

Adolin is one of Navani's baby chickens too, for longer than Shallan.  She has been motherly to him and Renarin since WoK, when Dalinar was still giving her the cold shoulder.  I think you are seeing too much on the negative side than what is likely to happen.  Sure, going in with low or negative expectations means you tend to come out with less disappointments, but it really is a depressing way to look at things.  For instance, Shallan with her involvement with Mraize and the whole Ghostbloods sideplot is going to be keeping secrets, and off doing things on her own wihtout supervision or wanting people looking over her shoulders - not even her brothers, when they reunite for the first time in almost a year.  Navani, though she's probably not the one with the greatest relationship advice, has more experience in these things than anyone else that Adolin is comfortable talking to.  With Kaladin out of the picture, and Renarin busy exploring his Radiant powers, Bridge Four might be more of a support system to Adolin than to anyone else.  They are Kaladin's men, but Kaladin went away to Hearthstone/Kholinar, and Kaladin always kept himself distant from most of the bridgement apart from the named lieutenants like Rock, Sigzil, Teft and Moash.  Adolin since the beginning of WoR has shown some relationship progression with them.  I could see it developing further.

Adolin was annoyed by them and their eavesdropping on his dates but he ended up appreciating and valuing them by the end.  He probably wouldn't bond with them like a chasm scene would do, but they are people who understand what it's like to be the sidekick to the hero, without superpowers but still doing the best they can.  

I actually went back to Anne of Green Gables (and you can read it online for free because the copyright has expired, btw) and after reading it, I have come to the conclusion that if Anne was an SA character, she would be a Lightweaver.  She brings so much happiness to Avonlea with the power of imagination.  The Radiant order is so perfectly fitting for her.  Regarding the age gap, my most recent cringe was reading a romance novel where the main character, when she was 8 years old, loudly declared that she would marry a boy whom she was crushing on (he was 17)  when she was grown up.  And they get engaged when she is 18 and he is 27.  I love childhood crushes becoming romance, don't get me wrong, but this was a bit much for me.  Honestly, anyone I liked when I was under 15 years old I now realise would be horribly unsuited to my preferences today.  And that is why YA romances appeal to me less and less as the years go by.  Most of them would appeal to 15-year-old me, but now they make me roll my eyes.:rolleyes:  (Gosh I really love this smiley)

I am just trying to tie in all ends. Adolin may have responded positively to Navani's attentions and Dalinar may have stated she could get away with a lot with him, even stating how his son had the tendency to behave like a child again (which I have always thought was quite sad... even at 23, Adolin misses his mother :() whenever she was around, he still has never broached her for counsels. Adolin is shy, I think he may be shy with just about everyone. While it may happen, there is no telling is it will, not based on the reading we have had so far.

As for Bridge 4, for my part, I consider they have been established as being Renarin's support group, not Adolin. It is Renarin they welcomed in their rank as "one of them" and by "one of them", I mean "one of those who is outcast enough with enough sufferance to integrate out group". Adolin just doesn't fit: he doesn't have the tragic life bridgemen, Kaladin and everyone demands of others to be deem worthy of attention, respect and care. He is a Prince. They may not hate him, but I doubt they are overly fond of him.

I thus do not see it happening.

Maybe when we are teenagers, crushing on an older, mature men is not seen in such a bad way, but when we get older, we cringe over the implications of such attentions? I do not mind childhood romances blossoming, but when the children are of an age or close to, at least. I think it normal our tastes change as we get older: there is a reason why I yearn to read about family dynamic now while I'd rather read about the farmboy going in an adventure when I was younger. When I was younger, family dynamics was about the last thing I wanted to read as I yearn to get free of mine, but now... I think they are priceless opportunity for character interactions, drama, conflict and refreshing plot lines as, let's be frank, not many fantasy authors write about families.

I also do not think I'd enjoy the stories I read, at 15, as much as I enjoyed them back in the day. Were I to re-read Ann Rice, would I like it as much as I did as a teenager? Probably not. Even Outlander which I read as a very young adult... It is very cheesy but somehow, back then, it didn't bother me. As for Anne, I think I'd still like her. I mean... Anne is a classic and I hope to re-read it with my daughter, once she is old enough. For now, she is all about Ninjago, DragronFroz, dragons and dinosaurs (which fantasy loving me think is a very good starting point) :) We are going to try Harry Potter soon and Star Wars, though I do not know which would be the best starting point for a 6 years old (with a younger brother who watches the same things).

6 hours ago, sheep said:

Jamie's rank was uncertain with his uncles being leaders of the Clan Mackenzie.  It was more convenient for him to not do anything which might produce an heir and put the succession into question.  Whereas for Adolin, it would be very useful if he were to produce an heir as soon as possible when people don't think Dalinar will live past book 5.

Kaladin makes a good squadleader when there are few enough men for him to know each one personally, enough to know their strengths and weaknesses and tailor the squad's tactics to fit that.  He would make for a terrible commander or general, because he wants to protect people so much.  That is what makes him different from Ender Wiggin (though no one who is not Mazer Rackham can be anything like Ender).  Ender's lesson that he learned is that sometimes you have to make sacrifices to fulfill the winning conditions, and that goes against the whole "journey before destination" thing - which is idealistic, but sometimes not realistic.  Good thing not everyone becomes a Radiant, right?  Protecting people and saving lives is what Kaladin does, and that is enough to make him disobey the orders, which throws the whole big-picture plan down the toilet.  It's well-meaning, but nearsighted, and he is just too pure and morally white for a world where things are fifty shades of grey.  And that is why people love Kaladin, because you know he's unambiguously good, but I personally like the more pragmatic characters.  Their internal conflicts, if they question their morality, is so much more interesting.

Ugh, Kaladin and his "suffering is a contest and don't bother competing because I win" attitude is as off-putting in the same way that you don't like Renarin's moping about.  If Kaladin meets Laral in Hearthstone in SA3, and he is mean to her because she's a lighteyes and lighteyes do not know the meaning of adversity, I will be extremely disappointed.  

For someone who is more of a character reader than a world-building or magic system reader, I am strangely neutral to the main characters than most.  I don't really like most of them, nor do I hate them, I just think of them as tools in the plot and they have to be very interesting to catch my attention.  None of the main "flashback" characters of the first 5 books make me super immersed; for me it is the character interactions rather than the character personalities that make me want to keep reading.  I'm probably weird that way.  I just care more about what they do than who they are.  Character development is great and all, but how does that affect the action and the overall plot arc?  Malta Vestrit's becoming less self-centred led to dragons returning to the world.  I want to see what cool things other characters are capable of.

I suspect the pressure to produce a heir may force Adolin to compromise on his future wife... I had a weird premonition recently the "Alethi wedding" Brandon told us he would write in the first arc won't be Adolin/Shallan or Navani/Dalinar, but Adolin/XYZ woman and it won't be a happy one. With everyone around him becoming Radiants, with Shallan most likely breaking it up with him, I think it may be the Kholins will decide they need to marry Adolin ASAP with the first available young lady. 

Hence Adolin will get stuck into a loveless marriage. Quite sad. 

As for why Adolin doesn't have such pressure, I think it has to do with Dalinar. I mean, Dalinar was in his late-twenties when Adolin was born, thus making him more inclined to believe his son still has plenty of time to get married and have children. These thoughts may change though as the Desolation approaches.

Ender was quite dramatic: he was willing to kill thousand of people to eliminate a complete species. Of course, he did not know this, but this was why they chose him, because he was willing to go the extra mile to secure victory, because he had little empathy without being a bully. I certainly do not think Ender was a good commander nor is he what our heroes should tend towards. 

Kaladin is the pure white hero on a heroes's journey, the universally good guy who will screw the big picture into the sewer if it means protecting his men: the story is written in a way to make us emphasize with Kaladin. It is why the typical fantasy reader love Kaladin: he is the embodiment of the perfect fantasy hero. He is an under-dog, lowly born, he was persecuted, he is a self-made man, he was given super powers stronger than anyone else, he is unassuming and he is slightly depressed about his status. He saves the day and while he may have fall-outs, he still saves the day, in a last minute fashion, in do or die moments which were made specifically to have the readers root for him. Unfortunately, there is a fringe of fantasy readers who thinks characters such as Kaladin are too predictable and are thus boring. Those who like more pragmatic characters such as you and I and thus who prefer more cunning characters will not enjoy Kaladin, as a rule of thumb. The fact I prefer Adolin is rather telling: I prefer reading conflicts which are about more pragmatic issues than reading conflicts which are about how heroic to be. Kaladin is not grey, he is white, but Adolin is definitely grey and it ends bad for him. Kaladin, we know he gets happy ending, the bad tragic ending, Adolin got it. Ever wonder why The Empire Strikes Back tend to be most people's favorite Star Wars movie? Because it ends bad: Luke loses, Han is carbonized and our heroes narrowly escape with their life. Adolin going all the way to become the tragic character does draw in many readers.

As a rule of thumb, I'd say character readers tend to always be more interested within the supporting/side characters than the main ones. Why? Because main protagonists tend to always have the same issues and to deal with them the same way. Drama inserted within their story arc is artificial as they always win, no matter what while the supporting cast can be allowed to be less white and, more importantly, they do not have plot armor. They also can loose. They do not have to save the say. They can get injured and they can make mistakes. They do not have the imperative to become heroes which tends to make them... more interesting. Honestly, not preferring the major characters is very common within fantasy.

This being said, I do care about who the characters are and it helps me define them. I love to know where they come from, but I am not interested in every backstory.I enjoy them when they give clues explaining a later behavior of said character. A good example of this would Wax's flashbacks within SoS and BoM: they weren't extensive, but they all served to give us relevant details pertaining Wax backstory. We needed to read how he met Lessie in order to perhaps feel more sympathetic to his plight over having lost her. They were the classic tropic union which starts by two characters initially being antagonist one towards each other: people are genuinely drawn to such ships. Therefore to see it rise and to see it fall, only to be replaced by a less common and, upon first glance, unsuitable and boring one such as Wax/Steris had to give the readers a deeper feel over Lessie's "death". We also needed to know what happened during Wax time with the Terris, we had to see why it failed and where his desire to uphold the law came from. These were important part of Wax's character which were relevant to his current day POV, hence they were good flashbacks. When I say I wish for Adolin, what we had for Wax is pretty much what I had in mind: a few selected defining moment to help built the character better. 

Malta was a very satisfying character because the denouement happens because she grows. She is exactly the kind of character development I dream Adolin would get: something important would happen because he grew. It doesn't need to be heroic, it doesn't need to involve him saving everyone's life in an ultimatum moment such as Kaladin, it simply needs to be relevant such as Malta reviving the dragon.

10 hours ago, sheep said:

I think we feel similar things about Renarin.  I don't dislike him, but like you, I just don't feel empathy with him or his situation.  I don't go out of my way to force myself to feel empathy for him, nor do I feel regret or disappointment that I do not like him as much as some other people do.  Sure, it sucks to be disabled in a family where no one else has the same disability, and be in a society where it's stigmatised in terms of social interaction and relgious dogma to be anything other than perfectly fit and ready to defend Heaven from Voidbringer demons.  But I find Renarin ... boring.  To me, he is one of the hardest characters to picture and draw because in my head, I can't easily frame an image in my mind of him doing things.  Because he doesn't do many things.  He is a passive character, instead of active.  He fades into the background.  He is mentioned in one or two lines to establish his presence in a scene by a PoV character, and then completely forgotten.  That might be some magical Illumination surgebinding going on, or it could be that Renarin is just so boring that people's eyes glaze over and they stop noticing him.  He has few hobbies, and they are informed instead of shown on-screen (the difference between show and tell, pretty much).  He has very little physical description other than slender and speaking slowly, and being "proper".  It's just hard to understand him unless you keep up to date with all the WoB's and personally empathise with his disabilities because you are aware of what exactly they are.  

At this point I think that Renarin is one of those characters who is on his journey to character development, and hasn't gotten to the end yet, and that is why his characterisation feels so ... incomplete.  He wants to be a soldier, becomes a soldier for the first time in his life, and the next part of the plot would be realising that he doesn't actually like soldiering, and realising it wasn't as good as he thought it would be.  But his story so far ended at WoR and so we haven't seen the end, and what we have now is unsatisfying.  But that is okay, it's only a matter of time for now.

In the meantime, we can relieve our frustration by reading stories that have complete character arcs.  Since you finished Eagle of the Ninth, Marcus had similar problems.  He couldn't be a soldier, when he had wished to be a career legionnaire his entire life, and after his injury, he found something else to do.  He became an oculist and saved lives that way, even though it wasn't super exciting.  That is why I enjoyed the book so much.  When people find a simple life satisfying and fulfilling, that is what I call a good ending.  Not everyone has to save the world to be a good person.  Just don't be boring and passive.  That is all I want. -_-

In the case of Renarin, I like to put two similar characters within two different series, one I love (Steris) and one I find slightly boring (Renarin) in order to illustrates what works for me, as a reader and what does not work. Both characters have similar issue: both are autistic and both struggle because of it. 

I absolutely loved Steris when I read SoS and BoM: she was a pleasant surprise I did not expect to find. I find her an intriguing, complex character and there is more to her than meets the eye. The same could be said about Renarin, but the problem lies elsewhere.

Yes Steris has a disability, yes it caused her to be ostracized, to be rejected and to struggle into accomplishing her goal, but she does not use it as a reason to sulk, to complain or to try to make others have pity. She just... keeps on going, still trying to find ways to secure herself a husband. She is very pragmatic and when all previous relationships end, she tried for business arrangement with Wax, thinking they both had something they each wanted and they could help each other achieve it. Once their relationships start to progress, she uses whatever skill she has, no matter how small and how insignificant, to help Wax, being the right partner for him and thus proving to be a valuable member of team even if she won't rate herself as more than a mere 7%. She is thus an enthralling character you want to see succeed. The way she uses her strengths is rather compelling: she plans and plans and plans again, border-lining on obsession, but how many time did she end up producing the desired artifact right on time?

In the case of Renarin, a character with the same disability, autism, we just do not get this same pro-activeness we see in Steris. We never see him try to use his strengths, we never even see him try, except at being a soldier which only happens after he threatens to kill himself shall he not be allowed to try, yet again. This insistence he should be a soldier, his refusal to try anything else and the feeling of uselessness which comes from his inability to fight makes him endearing to some, but not quite so to others. To others, such as myself, it does appear as if Renarin uses his disability as an excuse to sulk, to complain and to keep on claiming he is useless. Why isn't he trying? Is it because he prefers to hide behind his disability, thus stating he is useless as opposed to actually put himself out there and risk failure? I mean, Adolin does seem to fear failure, it may be Renarin has the same. This is exactly interesting... I never looked at Renarin through this angle before. He would certainly benefit from greater exposure and he definitely needs to move from being a very passive character to a more active one. As he currently is, the prospect of reading a focus book on him is daunting.

Yes but Marcus still tried to find a new path for himself. He jumped on the occasion to retrieve the Eagle of the Ninth and he may have needed to strongly rely on Esca to do it, he still succeeded. His success gave him what he initially wanted: lands of his own which he agrees to take in England, to settle with Cotia and Esca, but it all sprouted from him taking action. Active characters always are more interesting than passive one, unless you are writing as study on someone.

10 hours ago, sheep said:

The difference between Laral and Shallan is that Shallan had so many more opportunities and advantages, including having more family wealth, and more of a support system in the form of her brothers.  Because she had brothers, Shallan was more willing to take risks to save them, to leave the known comforts of an estate she rarely left and endanger her own life.  She had people to protect.

Laral was alone in the world after her father died, and she didn't have Shallan's inquistive scholar's mind, or artistic skill, which are incredibly advantageous because they are the perfect Vorin womanly virtues that make a woman attractive as a wife.  She had no agency, I agree, and no choice, and no opportunities, which makes her the anti-Shallan, who had these things for narrative convenience.  

Shallan's life sucked, I don't deny that, but Shallan had the chance to get out of it.  Laral didn't, and she had no Jasnah Kholin as a childhood dream to chase, to become a teacher or mentor.  Shallan got Jasnah, Tyn, Palona, Iyatil, and then Navani as female mentors.  Laral's only alternative to marrying Roshone was running away and becoming a tenner in the city, equivalent to Gaz's desertion from Sadeas's army.  If Gaz didn't have a patroness or benefactor in the form of Shallan, he would be a nameless mercenary/bandit languishing in obscurity and mediocrity just like city tenners would.  

And that is sad.

Yes, I absolutely agree. Shallan has had many opportunities and while she prefers to focus on her house impoverish state, based on her perception, she forgets her house was still wealthy enough to send her on a goose hunt to find Jasnah Kholin. She was of a significant house enough Jasnah Kholin read her application to be her ward. Shallan wasn't running away from her estate, she was travelling in class, trying to seek Jasnah. She had money and even if her house has debts, they still provided her the means to travel.

What did Laral have? Nothing. She had no means to travel unless she was willing to go as a beggar, which Shallan didn't do. Even if Laral had Shallan's artistic mind or scholarly inclination, where would she have find a suitable young man to marry? She merely is the minor scion of a tiny low ranked house located in a faraway small town: upon coming of age, her father would needed to make arrangements to find her a husband, probably calling in favors which may be why Kaladin came forward as a possible match, despite being darkeyed. It is hard to have agency when you literally have so little choices to make. 

Laral is just a sad story and I sincerely hope she found happiness within this life, hopefully doting on little Rillir (I assume she had children after marrying Roshone) and perhaps being a good lady for the people of Heartstone. I think she may serve to illustrate how becoming a Radiant takes more than talent and brokenness: it also takes opportunity and a bit of luck. 

11 hours ago, sheep said:

Adolin and Jakamav

I drew two versions of this, a black-and-white to match the other sketchy pics I posted earlier, and a coloured one.  I kinda like the b&w one better, but what do you guys think?


This is that scene after Jakamav and Adolin have a plateau battle on a rock formation that looks like a tiered wedding cake, but by the time they get to the top, Eshonai has already taken the gemheart.  Jakamav changes into his street clothes, and drinks wine in his tent.  Adolin has to sit on the floor because Shardplate is too heavy for chairs.  In my mind, Shardplate makes its wearer look bulky and imposing, so I wanted to show the size difference between a Shardbearer and a normal person.  I think that's something that fan artists have difficulty showing - to me, other people's drawings of Shardplate make it either look too small and thin, like it's skintight (think Power Ranger suits or Cybermen from Doctor Who).  It's not, since Shardbearers wear other clothes underneath.  Or they make it look too big, like it's a giant robot exoskeleton and not like there's a regular person underneath the magic shell.  Finding that perfect sweet spot right in the middle is hard.  I have trouble with it all the damnation time.

I decided that Jakamav's favourite colour is green because you can paint Shardplate any colour you like, and his is green.  So that is why he wears green a lot.  Since emeralds are the most valuable Soulcasting gem, green is probably associated with wealth in Roshar, so it makes it more fitting.  

 

Something silly now.  Yeah I know, it's really stupid.

What would Adolin's Facebook page be like?  
He and Shallan would share cute pictures of baby animals that make Kaladin block them on his newsfeed.  They both have couples photos as their profile picture.  Adolin posts pictures of his duelling trophies in his status updates and uses them as his cover photo.  When he wins too many, he gets unfriended, and the only people who like his statuses after that are Dalinar, Renarin and Shallan.  

Adolin pretends not to care. :(

btw the "1173" refers to the year.  They use Vorin years, not Earth years.

 

Ah, I love those two, especially the scene in the tent... I love this chapter. And Adolin's facebook page, it is so sad: he wants people to like his pictures so hard, but nobody cares.

On the side note, I have to say I have always envisioned Sebrarial as wearing buffy pants and having a goatee.... I always thought him on the younger side for a Highprince, forty-ish as opposed to fifty-ish. Or maybe I got it wrong and he is more 60-ish. Who knows, but he definitely has a goatee -_-

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 31/07/2016 at 6:05 AM, Argel said:

Finally, Sebarial!! :D Slight edge to the B&W Adolin/Jakomav. Good stuff as always!!

It took me awhile but I figured out why the B&W was better.  The colouring removed the contrast on the Shardplate back plates so the detail was harder to see.  It made it too murky for what was supposed to be a centre of focus, for where the viewer's eye was meant to glance at first when "reading" a picture left to right.  The B&W looks cleaner in comparison, and easier to "read".

I hope Sebarial is pretty close to what you had in your head. :)

 

On 31/07/2016 at 7:18 AM, Rasarr said:

I'd say b&w version of Adolin/Jamakav is better; seems to fit the mood of the scene better, the colourful one is too... cheerful. Also, Adolin's facebook page cracked me up. :D

I filled in the info box with Adolin's information, for those who noticed.  There is a section for where a real facebook page would list your school or university, but Adolin didn't go to school.  I'm still not sure how he even made a Facebook page since he can't read and relies on an ardent to send text messages/spanreed to Shallan.

The answer to that is not to think too deeply.

 

On 31/07/2016 at 10:38 AM, skeene1 said:

@sheep I really enjoy all your artwork. You've done a really great job at capturing the characters of the Stormlight Archive. 

Thanks!  I'm a very visual person so I think a lot about the imagery when I read books.  I also do cosplay now and then and it has gotten me into the habit of being obsessive about the details.

 

 

 

On 31/07/2016 at 0:17 PM, maxal said:

No author expects it, but a good author will try to give life to every character, even the minor ones as of those feels like cardboard and vessels for one characteristic, the the world-building ends up feeling flatter. Too many authors disregard the importance of crafting good characters, instead insisting on focusing solely on plot advancement and world-building artifacts. A good author certainly do not expect his readers to like every single characters, but they'd rather you felt something for them even if it is a negative emotion. The worst would be being indifferent and/or not care about the characters: it then shows the author has failed to convey the proper emotions to the readers.


Most authors are aware of readers' reactions, or they try to be.  That's what alpha and beta readers are for, which is the same thing that visual media (tv/movies) or advertising do when they work with focus groups.  The thing about writers is that because they are the sole creative force behind a work, their "blockbuster" level can protect them from publishers and editors wanting to change part of the work that isn't the spelling/grammar proofreading stuff.  Which can be a good thing, since media created by a committee bent on hitting the demographics can be really terrible or just really generic (examples being an unnecessary movie franchise reboot, or idol singer music group).  An author's creative freedom and licence to ignore the advice or wishes of their audience and publisher can be a good thing too, because otherwise it would lead down the dark path of plot armoured characters that lose all dramatic tension, or annoying characters that end up being hated.  Brandon has alpha and beta readers, and he takes their advice sometimes, and sometimes he doesn't - the WoR love triangle subplot was something that the beta readers reacted to in a predictable fashion (because SA wasn't intended to be YA, but somehow a distinctive YA trope fell into it), and we got the Kashadolin setup <_<.  So I think that Brandon is aware that Adolin has fans, even if you don't think he knows it.  He's just too active and communicative with fans and readers not to know, and for someone who plans so far ahead, he won't have forgotten Adolin.

If you end up getting bored of SA before Oathbringer's release, or think Oathbringer is a terrible book because it barely mentions Adolin, that would be a shame.  But it doesn't mean that Brandon thinks Adolin is boring, or thinks readers think that Adolin is boring.  It may be that Adolin's spotlight time isn't just at that moment, and if he were to pander to the audience and include gratuitous audience, it could slow the rest of the story's pacing or make the Sanderlanche less satisfying.  If you look at the statistics here Adolin has had way too much screen time to be a minor character rather than supporting character.  He may not get as much screen time as he has been getting in every book, but in the end the wordcounts will add up to make him a character with more PoV's than a named flashback character.  Being a named flashback character doesn't guarantee anything, since they are confirmed to be possibly be dead by the time their book rolls around, or even that they will have the highest wordcount in their own book.  Kaladin had more pagetime than Shallan and her flashbacks in WoR

Awww, you hate Tyn and Jakamav? :o  But neither of them are really evil.  If they are "bad" people, it is only because the choices they make are the selfish ones that fit within their culture's definition of morality.  If the plot decides they are to be the antagonists because of this, I don't think it makes them worthy of hate, since they are interesting.  They are either unaware that they are being selfish and callous because they rationalise it as the "right" behaviour, or they know it and go ahead with their dastardly plans because they don't care.  That's what I really like in an antagonist that I don't see very often - the moustache twirling villain who ties a girl to the train tracks, and knows it's bad, but still doesn't go as far as killing puppies for fun.  I like Tyn because she is like an outside viewer of Vorin restrictive prudishness, and because she wasn't indoctrinated with it from birth, she observes the rules because she feels like it.  It makes a contrast to Jasnah, the princess who breaks the rules because she can get away with it.  And Jakamav is to Adolin what Sadeas was to Dalinar, or what Moash was to Kaladin.  If the Shardplate that Teleb wore in the Battle of Narak was Jakamav's, he will be mad at Adolin forever and ever, since that suit of Plate was lost in the chasms with the Everstorm. :(

 

On 31/07/2016 at 0:17 PM, maxal said:

I think Dalinar father to son interactions with his eldest son are very complicated and much of it is based on perception, demands, responsibility, duty and orders and not enough is based on real trust and respect. Had Dalinar truly respected Adolin, as the majority of the readers seem to think, then he wouldn't have ask perfect obedience out of him. You don't ask obedience out of someone you trust, enforcing your own ideas on them, you let them free to take their own decisions because you trust they will make the right one. Dalinar doesn't trust Adolin will choose the right path, therefore he forces him into the one he thinks is the only right one. This simply isn't trust, it is fear his own son may still grow into the ghost of the Blackthorn.

I will thus say yet another very unpopular comment: Dalinar does not trust Adolin as much as he should, nor does he respects his son's identity, preferring to enforce those he sees as more suitable,

Dalinar lives his life teetering on a knife's edge, scared that he will fall into barbarism if he relaxes his standards by one little bit.  It's how he lived ever since he was reformed, and such a big part of his life that the idea that other people don't live by balancing their good and bad sides must be a strange and alien idea.  But he's not totally wrong, since Adolin experiences the same extremes of emotion that get amplified whn he gets stressed, and Kaladin gets his mood swings when he blames himself or it's raining outside.  The most conflict-making part of parental relationships in fiction (and life in general) really comes down to misguided good intentions being justified by "it was for your own good".  And a conflict resolution comes from both parties acknowledging that and moving on.

Hey, don't let an opinion being unpopular stop you from saying what you think.  Why should you let anyone's approval or disapproval stop you from enjoying yourself and expressing your opinion?  I think that is one of the reasons why you like and connect with Adolin so much, and why I like Tyn.  -_-

Were there any regular knights in regular metal armour on the Shattered Plains?  I don't remember reading about about any lighteyed units in Kaladin's PoV chapters, other than the cavalry and archers.  In the border skirmishes, there were regular knights because they were only fighting against humans, with no Shardbearers because all of them would be making real money on the Plains.  On the Shattered Plains, the enemies were warform Parshendi, stronger than humans (they leap chasms instead of using bridges or chull drawbridges) who carry war axes and war hammers as their weapons because they specifically want to counter Shardbearers.  A regular knight wouldn't have a chance unless he is part of a heavy mounted cavalry unit - a metal plated knight's advantage is armour and momentum for quick flanking charges.  Without the height and speed a horse gives, a metal knight would have all the disadvantages of Plate (the portable sauna) with none of the advantage.  I enjoy military strategy games and military speculative fiction, and I think about these things, even if they're not very interesting to character readers.

If Adolin is aware of this, if he has trained with other units like the spearmen he bunked with for a couple of months, I hope he is sensible enough to realise that jumping in the front lines unprepared is very stupid.  Adolin is self-sacrificing when it involves defending the people he loves, but there comes a point where one realises that they're not being very helpful when they're dead.  He's a capable commander, while still having his flaws, or he wouldn't be one of the top Kholin Army officers.  He values the lives of all his men, because the lives of men are priceless, so why should he value his own life any less?  Anyone who doesn't arrive to that conclusion is neck-deep in angst and is close to the sort of eye-rolling drama that involves brooding vampires and the Volturi. :rolleyes:

 

On 31/07/2016 at 0:17 PM, maxal said:

am just trying to tie in all ends. Adolin may have responded positively to Navani's attentions and Dalinar may have stated she could get away with a lot with him, even stating how his son had the tendency to behave like a child again (which I have always thought was quite sad... even at 23, Adolin misses his mother :() whenever she was around, he still has never broached her for counsels. Adolin is shy, I think he may be shy with just about everyone. While it may happen, there is no telling is it will, not based on the reading we have had so far.

The reason why I think Navani could be a good parental figure for Adolin was because in the beginning of WoK, Adolin thought Dalinar was going crazy and all of their "allies" were distancing themselves from the Kholins because they all thought he was going weak.  Navani was one of the few people that Adolin and eventually Dalinar could trust, and later on fully confide in.  Adolin trusted her from the start, when Dalinar was giving her the cold shoulder, and was willing to discuss what to do with Dalinar and the abdication.  Normally Adolin doesn't talk about this stuff because he wants to look confident in front of other people, but Navani knew.  The only other people he has trusted enough to tell them the truth about his weaknesses and vulnerabilities was Kaladin (the girl advice) and Shallan (the first date).  When they are busy doing Radiant things, Navani will be the only non-Radiant he can trust.  Navani's character quirk is that she perceives her own value as a person based on how much other people need her.  Without it, she feels useless.  She's not a queen or a wife anymore, and her children have outgrown her so she doesn't feel like a mother.  Even Renarin has better things to do these days.  Adolin (and Elhokar if he stays normal) is the person in the best position to connect with her.  It would be heart-warming if it happened, and if they also happened to discuss Shshshsh, it would tie in nicely with Dalinar's flashbacks.

I think my cringe from reading certain romance plotlines comes from their being badly written and not really representative of a healthy relationship between two emotionally stable and mature adults.  When I was younger, I was perfectly happy to read the really shallow stories where the main character gushes over how the hottest guy in school looked in her direction.  And when I got older, I realised that you can't build a long-term relationship off "omg he's so hotttt" and any plot-contrived relationship drama that can be solved by people sitting down and having a talk, or a phone call or text message, is just stupid and unrealistic.  It's not necessarily the age gap between characters that makes me dislike a novel, but rather how unrealistic or poorly written it is.  Molly and Burrich had something like a 15 year age difference, but I didn't get a cringe reaction from that.  I would say my current "pickiness" comes down to being aware of what exactly ticks my boxes now that I've read enough to tell apart the good from the bad.  Even nostalgia isn't enough to make the terrible novels I read as a teen enjoyable.

There are always classic children's books if you dislike stories by modern authors.  The ones about animals are always appealing to both girls and boys (I don't know if 6 year olds have gotten into the stage where they think the opposite gender has the COOTIES!!!).  Doctor Dolittle, Charlotte's Web, Lassie Come-Home, King of the Wind, or Redwall, for example.  They might be extremely tropey and full of predictable characters (and sometimes literal underdogs), but kids don't care about that and they were written 30+ years ago so the prose is better than what many modern children's or YA authors use these days.

 

On 31/07/2016 at 0:17 PM, maxal said:

I suspect the pressure to produce a heir may force Adolin to compromise on his future wife... I had a weird premonition recently the "Alethi wedding" Brandon told us he would write in the first arc won't be Adolin/Shallan or Navani/Dalinar, but Adolin/XYZ woman and it won't be a happy one. With everyone around him becoming Radiants, with Shallan most likely breaking it up with him, I think it may be the Kholins will decide they need to marry Adolin ASAP with the first available young lady. 

Hence Adolin will get stuck into a loveless marriage. Quite sad. 

You forget that a marriage involves two people.  Adolin might be pressured into a marriage, but even though Alethkar might be prudish with values different to modern Earth, any girl with a rank in the upper dahns high enough to be considered a potential wife would not be forced to marry against her will.  All of those girls that courted him would have married him if they were forced to do it, because he is the heir to a Highprince, but they chose to dump him because he did something they didn't like or disapproved of, and since he's not really a bad guy, they were all insignificant things easily overlooked by a real gold digger.  The only woman who could be forced into marriage would be someone low ranking and without connections, like Laral, but why would Adolin marry someone who would give no advantage when he doesn't even love her?  Even Shallan had the connection to Jasnah to her benefit.  I see Adolin as more likely to die alone than choose a loveless marriage.  Certainly it is not something that Dalinar or Navani would force on him, since they would have the experience to understand how unhappy an unhappy marriage can be.

I personally like reading unorthodox protagonists because they tend to be less predictable and therefore more interesting than the plain vanilla heroic underdog.  Not that I dislike heroic underdogs who start from nothing and work their way up, as long as they have depth that is more than "I do good things because it's the right thing to do".  But someone who breaks the mould and is a sympathetic protagonist who is shown as sympathetic because they do things other than rescuing cats from trees and dogs from wells is interesting in this age where the fantasy genre is simply flooded with generic everyman sword-swinging dragon slayers.  Kaladin as a struggling bridgeman was interesting, because he was inventive and it reminded me of Ender figuring out how to win the battles in battle school when the odds were stacked against him.  Kaladin as an overpowered Radiant with chronic hero syndrome is less interesting - but at least that is more interesting than the Kaladin (Merrin lol :lol:) who took Helaran's Shards and became a Shardbearer.

I think many more people would dislike Shallan if she had no flashbacks.  Without it, she's dangerously close to a Mary Sue dream girl whose only visible flaw is her sense of humour (to those who think she tries to hard to make unfunny fart jokes funny).  Her past makes her more complex and justifies some questionable decisions, and since I like pragmatic heroines who are willing to do illegal or bad things because they are the right thing to do, Shallan's magical amnesia preventing her from accepting her past actions makes me disappointed.  Not only is it hurting herself and Pattern, her mental denial response to prevent accidental triggering is stopping her from moving on and being a total butt kicker of a character and doing interesting things.   If Wax had the same habit and he'd moved on from Lessie too quickly, it would have made his move to Elendel less significant, and his developing relationship with Steris less meaningful.  Adolin is already likeable as a character, and in the narrative sense he doesn't NEED a flashback for readers to understand his motivations.  All the justifications for his actions in the story so far have been the result of things that have happened in the last few months, with Dalinar's visions going public.  If he survives the first half of SA, I'd be more interested in seeing a more mature and level-headed future Adolin.

 

On 31/07/2016 at 0:17 PM, maxal said:

In the case of Renarin, I like to put two similar characters within two different series, one I love (Steris) and one I find slightly boring (Renarin) in order to illustrates what works for me, as a reader and what does not work. Both characters have similar issue: both are autistic and both struggle because of it. 

I absolutely loved Steris when I read SoS and BoM: she was a pleasant surprise I did not expect to find. I find her an intriguing, complex character and there is more to her than meets the eye. The same could be said about Renarin, but the problem lies elsewhere.

That's the difference between characters who are revealed to have hidden depths previously unknown to the audience.  In the case of Steris, her disability doesn't stop her from making herself useful in unexpected ways, exploring her skills and showing what she is capable of to the reader.  Steris is organised and meticulous and plans obsessively, and it's shown to the reader first as a character quirk, and later in a humourous way when they are at the hotel, and then even later it pays off in a satisfying way.  

In comparison, what exactly are Renarin's hidden depths, his secret skills?  (Disregarding his Radiant surges since we don't even know his oath leve.)  Previously he was known to be a quiet but careful thinker, he likes wine, can read and write glyphs, and is interested in fabrial science.  Most of this is mentioned in one or two lines, or inferred by the reader and not outright stated.  And of this, how much of it has been used as a plot point or Chekhov's gun?  The answer is very little, and of that, the glyphs scratched on the walls wasn't entirely voluntary and was attributed to Dalinar the whole time.  That's why Renarin comes off as boring and passive.  His skills are never demonstrated on-screen as Steris's are, and his ridiculously high pain tolerance when he summons and holds his dead Shardblade is only inferred by the reader because Renarin has no PoV chapters.  And it is not exactly an example of being pro-active since he just accepted it as a normal part of being a Shardbearer and called himself a coward for not being able to do anything but stand there and hold it (see that conversation with Adolin right after Jakamav unfriends him).  

Honestly, most of this comes from Renarin just being in the background all the time as a minor character rather than the supporting cast.  If more of his identity, personality, and skills were explored, I'm sure he would be a more sympathetic character rather than a pathetic one.  He has done very little, and because of that, he has very little to redeem himself in your eyes, since you do not automatically think him an endearing character because of his disabilities.  Which is a reasonable response, because to me, a character's likeability should stand on the strength of their characterisation.  After all, you aren't automatically obliged to like every female protagonist you read just because you are female yourself.  -_-

If you dislike the idea of Renarin being a focus character, remember that being a focus character doesn't mean he will get the most screen time.  If Kaladin survives past SA#5, I would not be surprised if he is still the spotlight stealing, one-liner spouting underdog hero we all know and love. :lol::lol::lol:

 

 


 

Art time


Stormlight Gifs
EDIT:  Apparently uploading gifs don't work in the same way static images do.

 

 

 

The Weeping  

Spoiler

Shattered plains gif.gif

 

 

Adolin test

Spoiler

Adolin wink bw.gif

This came out unintentionally creepy.  It wasn't supposed to, I swear!  If you ever watch kids' cartoons and get annoyed at long drawn out scenes where nothing moves but some mouth flapping, the reason is that animation is extremely effort intensive.

 

 

Jasnah test

Spoiler

Jasnah gif.gif

Imagine you met Jasnah and tried to break the ice with a joke.  That is her reaction.  My costume designs are relatively simple compared to the elaborate havah designs by other fan artists, but there's a good reason for that.  If you ever draw the same character over and over again, you will soon wish that you hadn't made their clothing so fancy.  Same with the hair.  One of Jasnah's hairdos described in WoK had 6 hairspikes with golden chains strung between them.  I only use a two spike design because it's much easier to figure out placement - notice how they chance position when she turns her head.

 

 

 

Kaladin test

Spoiler

Kaladin gif1.gif

Kaladin has only two facial expressions.  :-|  and >:-(
Notice how jerky this animation is?  It's because I set it approximately 6 frames per second, where a movie animation goes at the rate your eye can see, which is 24 frames per second.  That is what makes a cartoon movie look so smooth - the transition from frame to frame is so gradual that your eyes make it out to be one continous movement.  But obviously it requires creating 24 slightly different frames.

On Roshar, a traumatic experience is enough to crack your soul for a Nahel bond.  On Earth, hand-drawn animation does the same thing.  Traditional animation using cels is enough to destroy it.  These days, modern animation for TV cartoons is efficient enough that a production studio designs the characters and draws the key frames (usually the first and last frames) and sends them overseas where other people do all the tedious transition frames between Kaladin's first :-| and his last >:-(.

 

 

Kholin Army Shallan

Spoiler

NSwve83.jpg

Because Shallan likes to steal other people's clothes.  
I think in past drawings I've established that Shallan is small compared to Adolin and Kaladin, since she has mentioned how big Alethi guys are, but other than freaks of nature like Kaladin and Rock, there have been no real numbers on the height of regular Alethis.  Whatever the actual numbers are, Shallan wearing an officer's coat would look pretty funny.  And it wouldn't be too inappropriate because the sleeve would be long enough to cover up her safehand.  

 

 

 

Kholin Army Adolin

Spoiler

SHpLmfm.jpg

Shardplate Adolin because I like Shardplate and I want to get better at drawing it.  No matter how many times I draw it, I still absolutely hate drawing the visor.  The visor slits aren't perfectly straight shallow "V" shapes, but kind of crooked at the end, which is super annoying.  But I stay true to the canon depiction where there are canon depictions, so I do it anyway.  

The background was supposed to make the Kholin blue "pop" but it really does nothing for Shallan's hair...

Edited by sheep
Corrected image attachments
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Love that Shattered Plains gif. Not quite sure what makes it so great, but I could stare at it for a long, long time. Shallan in the coat is just adorable, and Adolin is great as ever (your drawings have pretty much become my headcanon for him, too). 

Also, may I just note that I love the discussion you and maxal are having here? I've got nothing to add to them, but they're a delight to read.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 hours ago, Rasarr said:

Love that Shattered Plains gif. Not quite sure what makes it so great, but I could stare at it for a long, long time. Shallan in the coat is just adorable, and Adolin is great as ever (your drawings have pretty much become my headcanon for him, too). 

Also, may I just note that I love the discussion you and maxal are having here? I've got nothing to add to them, but they're a delight to read.

Thanks. The follow-up may take a while in the coming since I am currently not at home. I am currently leaving the beach to go show my kids around New-York : I thus very little time to write. So huh it may take a few days. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 8/5/2016 at 10:51 PM, maxal said:

I am currently leaving the beach to go show my kids around New-York

What!?! Family over the 17th Shard and Brandon's writing?!?! Heretic!!  Blasphemer!! :P :P :P

@sheep, we need a "Kaladin, Shallan, and Adolin visit the beach" scene! ;) :P

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 06/08/2016 at 3:01 AM, Argel said:

Your drawings are becoming my headcannon for the characters! Great stuff!!

EXACTLY AS PLANNED.  HAHAHAHHAAHHAHAHHH

The reason why I draw fan art is so I can share my headcanon/mental images of fictional characters.  I enjoy looking at other people's art because I like seeing how other people picture things, but nothing anyone else draws matches my mental visualisation quite like my own drawings.  

 

On 06/08/2016 at 6:13 AM, Rasarr said:

Love that Shattered Plains gif. Not quite sure what makes it so great, but I could stare at it for a long, long time. Shallan in the coat is just adorable, and Adolin is great as ever (your drawings have pretty much become my headcanon for him, too). 

Also, may I just note that I love the discussion you and maxal are having here? I've got nothing to add to them, but they're a delight to read.

Adolin to me has always been on the cute and boyish side of handsome rather than the smoking hot butt-chin stubbly Hollywood-style lead actor handsome.  I'm not the only one who thinks that, but it is probably a small minority.  A virgin who blushes a lot and is smitten at first sight of a cute girl can't be a movie star action hero hot in my mind.  My brain just can't compute.:blink:  I'm glad that Alethi have such weird appearances like dark skin, stripy hair, and light Asian-looking eyes because it makes movie casting almost impossible.  Then they will never cast actors that I will disappointed with, because they will never cast actors at all.:lol:

On a side note, I just can't wrap my head around fan drawings of Kaladin where he looks like a 35 year old grizzled chain-smoking detective, or ones where he looks like a sparkling anime prince.  In Roshar years or Earth-converted years, he's only 20/22, so he's not that old, but he's lived a tough life so he's not that pretty either.  And that's why I draw things.  Nothing else out there looked "right" to me, so I had to make my own.  My headcanon is really picky.

Hey, feel free to join the discussion if there's something you want to add!  I know we talk about all sorts of weird and random things, and complain all the time because we like complaining.B)  If you want to read discussions that aren't all various degrees of complaining about characters we don't like, or you want to complain too, jump in!!!

 

On 06/08/2016 at 0:51 PM, maxal said:

Thanks. The follow-up may take a while in the coming since I am currently not at home. I am currently leaving the beach to go show my kids around New-York : I thus very little time to write. So huh it may take a few days. 

The beach is more important than the Shard!  Have fun!!!
(Does saying this mean I just lost my Cosmere Fan privileges?)

 

On 07/08/2016 at 5:50 AM, CarolaDavar said:

You are amazing! I love Adolin's Facebook page! It's the best

Thanks!  I like doing something different now and then, like cosplay or watercolour or animation.  It adds some variety because I would get tired of doing the same thing for 6 pages of thread, and I think people would get tired of seeing the same thing.

 

On 07/08/2016 at 3:29 PM, Argel said:

What!?! Family over the 17th Shard and Brandon's writing?!?! Heretic!!  Blasphemer!! :P :P :P

@sheep, we need a "Kaladin, Shallan, and Adolin visit the beach" scene! ;) :P

This is a funny story - I actually asked some other Cosmere fanartists if they were interested in collaborating in a "Cosmere Swimsuit Calendar" project, where each artist does one month with a Cosmere character of their choice.  I got a lukewarm response, because this concept had already been done before with a Cosmere pinup calendar.  (NOTE: it is a pinup calendar, don't expect anything different:rolleyes::rolleyes:)

I had a few swimsuit sketches lying around so I combined them and threw in a beach background, if you scroll down to the bottom.

 

On 07/08/2016 at 10:31 PM, Doctor12 said:

This page is for all art, right? Not just @sheep's art? If I am, sorry for intruding! 

You can post your art here!

It's better to use this thread instead of cluttering up the forum with multiple threads, and it makes it easier to find art if it's all in one place.  If you want to post multiple pictures, put them in one post and spoiler them, or else we would have to scroll for days to reach the bottom post.  If you read 17th Shard on mobile, it gets super annoying.

 

On 10/08/2016 at 5:45 AM, Argent said:

I am going to have to revisit this thread, there is a scary amount of research and new content since the last time I checked it out...

When did you last look at this thread?  
I try to update with new art pieces approximately once a week, and totally didn't intend for it to be scary.  If you look closely, it's more silly than scary.

 

On 10/08/2016 at 6:50 AM, Chull #445 said:

Awesome drawings! Loved the Mraize from a while back!

Thanks!  It's always a bit of a fun challenge to tackle the minor characters.  I always end up using more imagination when there's not much canon to build off.

 

 

 

 


Art time

Stormlight gifs

 

Dalinar test

Spoiler

Dalinar gif.gif

The "Am I going crazy" Dalinar from WoK.  Dalinar has such a strong and forceful personality that drawing him is relatively easy for me, compared to, say, Renarin.  Various character descriptions of the Kholins have given the impression that the Kholins have strong chins and big noses, as both Elhokar and Gavilar have.  So Dalinar gets both.  

Other artists' drawings of Dalinar always felt off to me, because I didn't think they were aged or Asian-looking enough.  My version isn't perfect since it's probably too handsome for someone whose nose was broken is all beat up from years of fighting, but I can't change my mental image.  Which is kind of suck since all those wrinkles and lines that make Dalinar look authoritative and dad-like are also incredibly tedious to draw.

 

Adolin test

Spoiler

Adolin gif1.gif

That cheesy grin.  He's probably the only Kholin who practices smiling on a regular basis.  I once tried to draw Dalinar smiling and it was so weird that I trashed it.  

HIS BRAIZING HAIR!!!2!21@!@  It was so difficult trying to keep the stripes consistent from frame to frame that I just gave up.  In the old days where animators sat at their desks to hand draw frames, they often had little statuettes of character models to make sure the shapes of things looked right at all angles.  

Oh, and for the morbidly curious, here is that picture of Dalinar...

Spoiler

rf1Rbaq.jpg

 

Pencil sketch test

Spoiler

CxY5WSL.jpg

I sketched the key frames on paper first.  Blah.  My pencil work is really messy and not clean and neat like other artists.  They're also really wonky and the size gradually gets bigger the later in the evening that I'm drawing them.  So uggo omg.:angry:

And yes, I draw on lined paper too. :ph34r:  I used to lurk on stationery forums, and there was this brand of lined writing notebooks that everyone on the forum kept hyping because the paper was so smooth for fountain pen writing.  When I saw it on sale, I got a bunch of them to practice calligraphy on, because ruled lines keep the letters straight.  Eventually I felt that I didn't need to practice calligraphy anymore but I still had those notebooks lying around.  Turns out they're pretty decent for sketching too.

 

Wit test - "Heads or tails"

Spoiler

wit gif.gif

Reminder:  don't play gambling games with allomancers.
Just another smug and knowing Wit who is smug because he has a coin and no one else on the planet knows what the heck a coin is.  Even off planet, only he knows what the meaning of the coin is, if you've read Bands of Mourning.

To stay consistent with the Napoleonic era aesthetic of my uniform designs, the side swords and side knives for Alethi men are also Napoleonic-inspired.  The side swords are like cavalry sabres (specifically the szabla) and the side knives for lighteyes are like naval dirks.

Spoiler

zV4ULlh.jpg

Top - lighteyes.  Bottom - darkeyes.  I've posted this before.

 

 

 


The Highstorm

Quote

A huge sheet of water and debris blown before the storm. In places, it flashed with light from behind, revealing movement and shadows within. Like the skeleton of a hand when light illuminated the flesh, there was something inside this wall of destruction.
Most of the people fled the balcony, though the stormwall was still distant. In moments, only a handful remained, Shallan and Adolin among them. She watched, transfixed, as the storm approached. It took longer than she’d expected. It was moving at a terrible speed, but it was so large, they’d been able to spot it from quite a distance.
Chapter 49, "Watching the World Transform", Words of Radiance.

 

Spoiler

WVG7fnv.jpg

A storybook-style illustration.


Then I decided to torture myself and draw the same thing in MS Paint by eye.  
A lot of people say MS Paint sucks, but I remember a long time ago when it was the only thing I had to draw with, other than pencil and paper.  

 

For Nostalgia

Spoiler

qOJdUTh.png

If you zoom in, you can see the individual pixels!!!

 

 

 

The Beach

Spoiler

5DKROvV.jpg

I made it an AU version rather than the canon-verse because I don't think Vorinism approves of going to the beach.  How does a proper Alethi lady swim?  The water would make her safesleeve wet and you could see the shape of her hand through it!  That's indecent! ;)  And also because an AU is cooler.  This picture was meant to look vintage postcard-y.

I have decided that Kaladin's theme colours are black and electric blue, and Adolin's theme colours are white and cobalt blue.  Adolin wears a high tech wetsuit because he's rich and he's shy. :wub::wub:  Shallan wears a one-piece bathing suit because she's a prude.  And that's The Stick!!! B)


Detail

Spoiler

DjvDXNo.jpg

Now you can see surfboard designs.  
Shallan is building a sandcastle in a lait because she is scholarly while still having fun.

 

 

The end.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

47 minutes ago, sheep said:

I try to update with new art pieces approximately once a week, and totally didn't intend for it to be scary.  If you look closely, it's more silly than scary.

 

Oh, like 2 months ago :D

Link to comment
Share on other sites

As always, an excellent art batch, even if for some reason, I can't get over Adolin's trademark Kholin® wetsuit and surfboard. Do they sell those in sets? ;) I think I've been speculating about Vorin swimsuit in You Know You're A Sanderfan thread (I ended up with what was basically burqini without head cover and with safehand glove - vorkini!), but you're right, that's more fit to darkeye ladies. Perhaps ligheyes would have some sort of rigid swimming pocket sewn into their left sleeve? It would probably be awful to actually swim in, considering how just holding something in your hand can impact movement in water. 

Love that highstorm picture, especially the way the face in the storm and the shape of the window make it look like it's a humanoid figure. The only - only! - minor complain I'd have towards this batch of arts is that iron and steel allomancy works towards and away from body's centre of mass, so no way Wit would be able to do this trick unless his right hand is his centre of mass. But it looks cool!

Also: there is such thing as Cosmere guys pinup calendar... I am quite literally out of words :blink:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

5 hours ago, sheep said:

Then I decided to torture myself and draw the same thing in MS Paint by eye.

Impressive results, though I think you need therapy for that level of self-torture!

 

5 hours ago, sheep said:

The Beach

YAY!!!!!!!!!!! Thank you!!! Great one!! Liked the inclusion of The Stick!! Liked Kaladin's surfboard design!!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 hours ago, sheep said:

The beach is more important than the Shard!  Have fun!!!
(Does saying this mean I just lost my Cosmere Fan privileges?)

Nah, you haven't lost it, it merely was answering one of those posts takes a longer time and the Wifi was so terrible, I didn't trust it not to erase the post while I try to upload it :ph34r: I lost a few posts down the way because which created a great deal of frustration :ph34r: Therefore, I focused my energy on other topics, waiting to be back home to answer the others. Anyway, the other topic I've been active in is currently going nowhere (and has gotten more frustrating than pleasant it costs me 3 downvotes :angry:) so you should get a more in-depth answer tonight or tomorrow morning as I am still in vacations, but at home sweet home. Really Montreal rocks B) Loved New-York (it's been a while since I went there), but it is too noisy, too filthy, too crowded for my tastes (note to self: avoid high season). Still the dinosaur museum was awesome (but really, it was Awesome I absolutely loved it): kids loved it too (though little one was a bit hyper-active: husband caught him standing on a precious ancient bone :ph34r::ph34r::ph34r:). We added four plush dinosaurs to our collection -_-: two of each I must mentioned cost me an unspeakable amount of money trying to win them through this stupid claw machine (really they play on poor parents emotions here having little children crying their heart out to get said plush dinosaur and a desperate mother trying to win it :o). Also got two dragons which I won shooting water into the clown's mouth (I am not going to say how much money those dragons cost either :ph34r:), but kids are happy.

Beach was great, I've got to do my yearly surfing. Kids enjoyed the rides and I have eaten my yearly fast food quota :ph34r: I also got to laugh at Americans giving me the quizzed look when I dared order wine :o They got lucky I didn't ask them which wine would better fit my order of hamburger, :ph34r: poor kids: I sent one red faced scurrying to the kitchen to find someone to answer the rather easy question  "Where is this wine from?" :ph34r: I'm terrible, I shouldn't make fun of them: I guess they aren't used to people not ordering beer or colorful sugary drinks. 

So I'm safely back home now :) Still got a week and a half of vacations which are going to be spent around the house, trying to prep for this half-marathon I had the great idea to register to :ph34r:

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...