+eveorjoy Posted April 9, 2016 Author Report Share Posted April 9, 2016 If it was kaladin why would she say 'men' ? And notice that she said men not a man,which indicates she might even have bonded with multiple knights (at differnt times off course) Why does kaladin sounds so surprised if it was him? No I'm pretty sure the way she said it indicated that it must have been a long time ago. Not necessarily, but it is open to interpretation. I don't believe Heleran is the only one she helped Kaladin kill before he was enslaved or even after that, but before she became fully aware. It's not clearly stated so she could just be referring to her time with Kaladin. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StormWrath Posted April 9, 2016 Report Share Posted April 9, 2016 Not necessarily, but it is open to interpretation. I don't believe Heleran is the only one she helped Kaladin kill before he was enslaved or even after that, but before she became fully aware. It's not clearly stated so she could just be referring to her time with Kaladin. Yeah,that's entirely possible,I just feel that most of the fandom (including me) interpret that as having happened long ago and so I tend to agree with it more,BTW you're the first person I have seen who interpreted this passage as you did. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+eveorjoy Posted April 9, 2016 Author Report Share Posted April 9, 2016 Yeah,that's entirely possible,I just feel that most of the fandom (including me) interpret that as having happened long ago and so I tend to agree with it more,BTW you're the first person I have seen who interpreted this passage as you did. Well, as Shallan said, yay for originality. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxal Posted April 9, 2016 Report Share Posted April 9, 2016 We saw Syl as living Shardblade, or Pattern...also without Stormlight they have a very different "style" (and glowing) than a Deadblade, Kal at first look seems to see this difference without problems. Well someone may recheck on the Kal's flashback (or Shallan) if the Shardblade had a gemstone...this will be enough It had a gemstone and it has been asked to Brandon quite a while ago. I don't recall the exact answer but it went along the lines of "This is a good observation" or something similar. In other words, Helaran blade had a gem at the pommel thus making him a normal Shardbearer and not a Radiant. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Portz Posted April 9, 2016 Report Share Posted April 9, 2016 Thanks for pointing this out :-) She recognized it because Helaran threatened their father with it. When Dalinar stopped the chasmfiend's claw he glowed edit: quote for reference: Way of Kings page 209 Dalinar held back the claw and matched its strength, a figure in dark, silvery metal that almost seemed to glow. The beast trumpeted above, and Dalinar bellowed back a powerful, defiant yell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Portz Posted April 9, 2016 Report Share Posted April 9, 2016 (edited) Ah, even more explicit, a few pages behind Pathfinders quote: This wasn’t the first time Adolin had seen such extraordinary actions from his father, but they had seemed particularly dramatic. Standing beneath the massive chasmfiend, holding it back from killing his nephew, Plate glowing. That image was fixed in Adolin’s memory. Edited April 9, 2016 by Atastor 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ParadoxicalZen Posted April 11, 2016 Report Share Posted April 11, 2016 Y'all seem to assume that it was Helaran that Kaladin actually killed that day (we didn't see the guy's face, nor have we had actual confirmation, only extrapolations simply because the guy was red-haired and Veden) 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+eveorjoy Posted April 11, 2016 Author Report Share Posted April 11, 2016 Excellent point. I do think it was Heleran, but maybe someelse killed him and took his Shardblade. Anything is possible at this point. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AerionBFII Posted April 11, 2016 Report Share Posted April 11, 2016 Y'all seem to assume that it was Helaran that Kaladin actually killed that day (we didn't see the guy's face, nor have we had actual confirmation, only extrapolations simply because the guy was red-haired and Veden) You know i did not even consider Helaran might have loaned his Shardblade out to another Skybreaker Vaden.. Stranger things have happened in the Cosmere for sure haha Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rasarr Posted April 11, 2016 Report Share Posted April 11, 2016 You know i did not even consider Helaran might have loaned his Shardblade out to another Skybreaker Vaden.. Stranger things have happened in the Cosmere for sure haha But the blade didn't vanish from either Amaram's or Kaladin's hand at any point... You'd think Heleran would've summoned it back as soon as he realized the borrowing person isn't among the living anymore. While I do agree that the person Kaladin has killed may not be Heleran, I think we should use Occam's Razor here. Red-haired Sharbearer with the same sword Shallan remembers Heleran having? It could be another Veden, but I think it's far more likely it's actually Heleran. Not to mention that it gives more possibilities, narrative-wise, if Shallan finds out Kaladin was the one to kill her brother. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MoS03 Posted April 11, 2016 Report Share Posted April 11, 2016 Didn't she already figure that out? In the Chasm, didn't Kaladin tell her everything? Or am I crazy? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pathfinder Posted April 11, 2016 Report Share Posted April 11, 2016 Didn't she already figure that out? In the Chasm, didn't Kaladin tell her everything? Or am I crazy? Kaladin figured it all out, but didn't tell her. So he knows but she doesn't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eki Posted April 11, 2016 Report Share Posted April 11, 2016 Wasn't Amaram's blade different from either the one Kaladin won or Helaran's? I don't remember which one (Probably both!)... Amaram could have easily switched with a friend to cover his tracks though... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+eveorjoy Posted April 11, 2016 Author Report Share Posted April 11, 2016 No. WOR Kaladin identified the blade as the one he won. And Shallan identified it as the one her brother Heleran owned. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eki Posted April 11, 2016 Report Share Posted April 11, 2016 No. WOR Kaladin identified the blade as the one he won. And Shallan identified it as the one her brother Heleran owned. Really? I must have completely misunderstood that then... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AerionBFII Posted April 11, 2016 Report Share Posted April 11, 2016 (edited) Amaram's Blade is the one Kaladin fought as he recognize it. Im guessing Shallan will throw a fit when she finds out about Kaladin and Helaran. But the blade didn't vanish from either Amaram's or Kaladin's hand at any point... You'd think Heleran would've summoned it back as soon as he realized the borrowing person isn't among the living anymore. While I do agree that the person Kaladin has killed may not be Heleran, I think we should use Occam's Razor here. Red-haired Sharbearer with the same sword Shallan remembers Heleran having? It could be another Veden, but I think it's far more likely it's actually Heleran. Not to mention that it gives more possibilities, narrative-wise, if Shallan finds out Kaladin was the one to kill her brother. I know it's most likely Helaran but as a 17th Sharder (AKA conspiracist) i was just surprised the thought never occurred to me, unless he gave him the Shardblade after achieving the Nahel Bond and it turns out we have been masterfully trolled...? :| But no it's probably Helaran. Edited April 11, 2016 by WEZ313 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argel Posted April 11, 2016 Report Share Posted April 11, 2016 Maybe it will be another Truth Shallan must come to accept? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pharaoh9000 Posted April 13, 2016 Report Share Posted April 13, 2016 But the blade didn't vanish from either Amaram's or Kaladin's hand at any point... You'd think Heleran would've summoned it back as soon as he realized the borrowing person isn't among the living anymore. While I do agree that the person Kaladin has killed may not be Heleran, I think we should use Occam's Razor here. Red-haired Sharbearer with the same sword Shallan remembers Heleran having? It could be another Veden, but I think it's far more likely it's actually Heleran. Not to mention that it gives more possibilities, narrative-wise, if Shallan finds out Kaladin was the one to kill her brother. This assumes that the shardbearer Kaladin killed was the borrower and Heleran held the primary bond to the blade. For all we know, Heleran was the borrower. We've seen shardblades shared and borrowed on a regular basis... such as the King's blades and the late Gavilar's blade. With Heleran being part of a secret society, who knows what exchanges take place with their blades and plates. Heck, the "red-haired veden" could have been anybody. On Roshar, we know red hair isn't exclusive to Shallan's family. Occam's Razor does incline me to believe that it was Heleran that Kaladin killed, but I have to admit the door is still open for Brandon to say Heleran is alive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+eveorjoy Posted April 13, 2016 Author Report Share Posted April 13, 2016 Heleran didn't borrow the blade. Shallan saw it appear in his hand. That could only happen if he was bonded to it. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlphaFun Posted April 16, 2016 Report Share Posted April 16, 2016 helaran wasn't a surge binger ..Assuming if he was a surge binder he would have to spoke upto the third ideal to gain a shard blade which make him a full Radiant (Only lightweaver have shard after speaking the first ideal,Pattern confirmed he was the only cryptic to have bounded in centuries) Don't think Even Kaladin could have killed a full radiant burning stromlight and Full shards with his limited ability Taravangian wrongly assumed him as surge binger because of shallen surge binding ability and how close she was with helaran ..As far as we know there are very few surge binders might be a single knight from each order ( Patter and Syl confirmed they are the only one of their kind to bound ) also Pattern highly implied spren would die only if knight abandon their oath even syl said they could have done something about the dead spren if their bounded knight were alive ... I belive if their knight die their spren would fade back to cognitive realm ... Ps. Syl implied stromfather survived the last recreance when knight abandoned their oath , i bliv his knight die before he abandon his oath or he didnt abandoned his oath..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AerionBFII Posted April 16, 2016 Report Share Posted April 16, 2016 Heleran didn't borrow the blade. Shallan saw it appear in his hand. That could only happen if he was bonded to it. I Agree! Unless Helaran gained the Nahel Bond and gave his shardblade to another Redheaded Vaden who happened to be a Skybreaker. No but seriously i agree, somebody who borrowed a Shardblade could carry somebody else's but they couldn't summon it.. Their possession of it entirely depends on the owners concentration and if it slips it will return to the owner. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ParadoxicalZen Posted April 17, 2016 Report Share Posted April 17, 2016 Or that whoever gave Helaran the blade 'made' him give it back and then they gave it to another Veden Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oudeis Posted April 17, 2016 Report Share Posted April 17, 2016 helaran wasn't a surge binger ..Assuming if he was a surge binder he would have to spoke upto the third ideal to gain a shard blade which make him a full Radiant (Only lightweaver have shard after speaking the first ideal,Pattern confirmed he was the only cryptic to have bounded in centuries) Don't think Even Kaladin could have killed a full radiant burning stromlight and Full shards with his limited ability Taravangian wrongly assumed him as surge binger because of shallen surge binding ability and how close she was with helaran ..As far as we know there are very few surge binders might be a single knight from each order ( Patter and Syl confirmed they are the only one of their kind to bound ) also Pattern highly implied spren would die only if knight abandon their oath even syl said they could have done something about the dead spren if their bounded knight were alive ... I belive if their knight die their spren would fade back to cognitive realm ... Ps. Syl implied stromfather survived the last recreance when knight abandoned their oath , i bliv his knight die before he abandon his oath or he didnt abandoned his oath..... Eh... Shallan progressed in her Ideals as a child, she didn't have Pattern because they get the Shardblade earlier, she was able to summon him because she's already three Ideals along. Ym could heal. The two Orders with Progression are Truthwatchers and Edgedancers. Renarin and Lift. So there are at least two of one of those Orders. Someone has pointed out that if Helaran were foolish and didn't have any spheres on him, in an attempt to be secretive, he could have been killed by such a wound. That's preposterous, of course, as Kaladin was able to Invest enough to fully heal two broken legs in moments, and people standing two feet away from him couldn't see that he was Invested, so there's no way Helaran couldn't have Invested at least enough to survive such a stab wound and still been incognito. Not to mention the dozen other reasons the man he killed couldn't have been a Surgebinder, like the Blade that didn't dispapear and had a gemstone in its hilt. I don't know why Taravangian thought Helaran could have trained his sister. I don't know if he thought Helaran was a Surgebinder, or if he just thought he was knowledgeable enough to give advice, like Teft attempted to with Kaladin. If he did think Helaran was a Surgebinder, I don't know why he would have, but it seems a stretch to assume, "Well, she's close to her brother, so I'm just going to assume he could Surgebind, too." I don't know that we know for sure that the Stormfather has ever Bonded before. He seemed to find the idea... unique when it was suggested to him. Just because Dalinar did, doesn't mean someone else has, before. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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