Did Kaladin kill Helaran's spren?

[+eveorjoy]

I've been reading through WOR again and a question crossed my mind. We know spren die when their knight betrays their oath, but what happens to the spren when their knight dies?

I thought that maybe they just went back to the cognitive realm. However Helaran's/Amaram's blade suggests this is not the case. Taravangian's chapter states that Helaran was a surgebinder. If this is so, clearly he kept his oaths until he died. His blade is still around and bound to someone else so it is a dead spren. Was it dead before Kaladin killed Helaran?

No wonder Pattern says Shallan will kill him. It appears joining a surgerbinder is a death sentence. When Kaladin and Shallan die will Sil and Pattern be lifeless blades? Did Kaladin kill Helaran's spren? What do you think?

[natc]

At no point was Helaran ever stated to be a surgebinder, though . . .

But to answer the question a knight literally dying is apparently a much safer experience for the spren. Relative to the oaths being broken anyway.

[Eki]

At no point was Helaran ever stated to be a surgebinder, though . . .

Taravangian mentions how Helaran may have trained Shallan before he left, but I think that's all we have

But yeah, him having a dead shardblade sounds like pretty good proof he was never a surgebinder, or that he had already abandoned his oaths. I don't think just dying would kill a bonded spren, because then there would be a lot more shardblades around.

(This is all assuming the guy Kaladin killed really was Helaran, I don't think that's ever been 100% confirmed, right?)

[+eveorjoy]

Shallan recognized the sword, so we can assume that sword was the only one he had. It is possible that Heleran wasn't a surgebinder, but Taravangian's conversation highly implys that he was.

Maybe Taravangian was wrong, but assuming he was right it does lead to an interesting question. Has Brandon ever said what happens to a spren when it's surgebinder dies?

[Yata]

Heleran wasn't a Surgebinder... His shards didn't glow (or at least someone have notice it) and Kal would never killed it in such way with Stormlight boost and regenerative powers.

 

Neither nobody notice such difference in the shard from before his death and after (lost of radiancy).

 

Last, we know that if a Surgebinder died, his/her Spren simply return in the Cognitive. The only way to "froze" a Spren in Shardblade form, is to bond deeply a Spren to a Surgebinder (go further with the oath) and then suddenly severe the bond through Oath-breaking.

[+eveorjoy]

Fair point about the lack of glowing shards. So Taravangian was likely wrong.

Still, I'm going to grasp at straws.

You need stormlight to heal and surgebinders are not immortal. If Heleran didn't want to be noticed he might not have gone to battle with a lot of stormlight. Kaladin avoided carrying too much light until the end of WOR. Heleran may not have expected to fight someone so skilled. Then he gets stabbed in the head and he didn't have time to draw in stormlight to save himself.

It is a stretch. It goes to show Taravangian doesn't know as much as he thinks he does. Oh well.

[Michael Portz]

Bear with me, I am rusty, but please refresh my memory: Is there really an automatism surgebinding => glowing shard plate?

 

 

Or asked differently: Which current time surgebinder actually wears a shardplate and it starts glowing onscreen?

 

 

 

[Eki]

Bear with me, I am rusty, but please refresh my memory: Is there really an automatism surgebinding => glowing shard plate?

Or asked differently: Which current time surgebinder actually wears a shardplate and it starts glowing onscreen?

None as far as I know. But living shardblades glow. I think the only Radiant who owns plate is Renarin.

[Yata]

We saw Syl as living Shardblade, or Pattern...also without Stormlight they have a very different "style" (and glowing) than a Deadblade, Kal at first look seems to see this difference without problems.

 

Well someone may recheck on the Kal's flashback (or Shallan) if the Shardblade had a gemstone...this will be enough

Edited April 8, 2016 by Yata

[kaellok]

1.  Shallan recognized the sword, so we can assume that sword was the only one he had. It is possible that Heleran wasn't a surgebinder, but Taravangian's conversation highly implys that he was.

2.  Maybe Taravangian was wrong, but assuming he was right it does lead to an interesting question. Has Brandon ever said what happens to a spren when it's surgebinder dies?

1.  Mr T's conversation says that Heleran would be able to train a potential Surgebinder if he found one, which merely implies that he'd be able to know one when found--Heleran-as-Surgebinder-himself is actually not implied at all, but rather assumed (it's a reasonable assumption taken by itself, but the other evidence present suggests otherwise.)  You'll remember that Kaladin was the Surgebinder, and yet it was (shoot, I forget his name) who was helping guide him through his training.  And Kaladin's Bridge 4 friend was able to do this training because of his former membership in one of the oh-so-many secret societies in Roshar.  Since Heleran was also in a secret society of Roshar, he could have access to the same types/kinds of information and have been attempting to provide the same kind of guidance.

 

2.  There's a Words of Brandon compiled thread that was being maintained/updated for a time here that answers the question. There's another page entirely that has a much larger database, but I can never remember what it is and my Google-fu is failing me due to 330am.

 

 

Q:  Well [the Stormfather] controls the highstorms...follow-up question: if he dies, does that affect the spren?

A:  Dying, as long as the oaths are not broken, does not affect the spren in a very terrible way. There are effects.

[AerionBFII]

I haven't seen a Spren Or a Nahel bonded Skybreaker in any of the Skybreaker scenes, I think he may have been a member of Nalans little group but I do not think he had a Spren. If he did he wouldn't have been able to hold a Shardblade while killing Kal's men.

I think he may have had possible future potential to become one but he wasn't at that stage.

Edited April 8, 2016 by WEZ313

[Patrick Star]

Dalinar's shardplate glowed a few times in Way of Kings, indicating that he was a radiant.

I don't recall Helaran's plate glowing. I think Mr.T was wrong.

[Yata]

Dalinar's shardplate glowed a few times in Way of Kings, indicating that he was a radiant.

Really ? I don't remember something like that

[Patrick Star]

Really ? I don't remember something like that

Yeah, kaladin notes it when dalinar kills the parshendi that were aiming at kaladin's bridge squad, I believe. Don't have the exact quote, though. But dalinar's plate does glow

[Dihatimus]

I don't have the book in front of me although I am fairly certain that dalinars plate was so badly banged up that light was leaking everywhere.

[Pathfinder]

Shallan recognized the sword, so we can assume that sword was the only one he had. It is possible that Heleran wasn't a surgebinder, but Taravangian's conversation highly implys that he was.

Maybe Taravangian was wrong, but assuming he was right it does lead to an interesting question. Has Brandon ever said what happens to a spren when it's surgebinder dies?

She recognized it because Helaran threatened their father with it. 

 

Really ? I don't remember something like that

When Dalinar stopped the chasmfiend's claw he glowed

 

edit: quote for reference:

 

Way of Kings page 209

Dalinar held back the claw and matched its strength, a figure in dark, silvery metal that almost seemed to glow. The beast trumpeted above, and Dalinar bellowed back a powerful, defiant yell. 

Edited April 8, 2016 by Pathfinder

[StormWrath]

I've been reading through WOR again and a question crossed my mind. We know spren die when their knight betrays their oath, but what happens to the spren when their knight dies?

I thought that maybe they just went back to the cognitive realm. However Helaran's/Amaram's blade suggests this is not the case. Taravangian's chapter states that Helaran was a surgebinder. If this is so, clearly he kept his oaths until he died. His blade is still around and bound to someone else so it is a dead spren. Was it dead before Kaladin killed Helaran?

No wonder Pattern says Shallan will kill him. It appears joining a surgerbinder is a death sentence. When Kaladin and Shallan die will Sil and Pattern be lifeless blades? Did Kaladin kill Helaran's spren? What do you think?

1. Helaran was not a surgebinder,his shardade had a gemstone on it,now if his blade was a live spren blade why would he need to bond it? You simply got the wrong meaning to what Mr T said

2. No spren would allow helaran to perform the wanton slaughter he committed on the battlefield,he killed soldiers that were no threat to him and didn't get in his way ie cenn,dallet and the others with them,also if he were a surgebinder why on earth would he go into a battlefield without taking in stormlight? Plus he didn't perform any surgebinding there.

3. You don't kill a spren by killing the knight he's bonded to,for example syl was most likely bonded to a KR long ago,and she's still alive and just fine

Edited April 8, 2016 by StormWrath

[+eveorjoy]

3. You don't kill a spren by killing the knight he's bonded to,for example syl was most likely bonded to a KR long ago,and she's still alive and just fine

 

I acquiesce to most of what you say, but we have no evidence that Syl ever bonded with another human. We know Pattern did not from his conversations with Shallan. It is possible Kaladan is the only person Syl has ever bonded with.

 

Thanks everyone for answering my question.

[StormWrath]

I acquiesce to most of what you say, but we have no evidence that Syl ever bonded with another human. We know Pattern did not from his conversations with Shallan. It is possible Kaladan is the only person Syl has ever bonded with.

 

Thanks everyone for answering my question.

She said she had helped men kill before,who would she help kill if he wasn't a KR?

“I hate it,” she said, growing more translucent. “But I’ve helped men kill before.” Kaladin froze on the ladder. “What?”

“It’s true,” she said. “I can remember it, just faintly.” “How?”

“I don’t know.” She grew paler. “I don’t want to talk about it. But it was right to do. I feel it.”

[+eveorjoy]

She said she had helped men kill before,who would she help kill if he wasn't a KR?

“I hate it,” she said, growing more translucent. “But I’ve helped men kill before.” Kaladin froze on the ladder. “What?”

“It’s true,” she said. “I can remember it, just faintly.” “How?”

“I don’t know.” She grew paler. “I don’t want to talk about it. But it was right to do. I feel it.”

 

Actually, I was thinking she was referring to helping Kaladin kill Heleran. Cenn mentions seeing a warping of air around Kaladin when he rescued him from enemy soldiers. Syl also said it was Kaladin saving the young men of his spearmen squad that drew her to him in the first place. Kaladin just didn't notice her until later. 

[Argel]

But then why not say "I've helped you kill before"? And "men" is plural.

[+eveorjoy]

Her memory isn't prefect and Kaladin killed more than just Heleran that day. I'm sure she helped him other times too. We will just have to wait and see.

[Argel]

It could be poor memory, or it could be that she has helped others besides Kaladin kill before, which does suggest a KR in a previous era. It would explain how she begins to remember things.

[+eveorjoy]

True. However there is no way to know for sure. We shall see.

[StormWrath]

Actually, I was thinking she was referring to helping Kaladin kill Heleran. Cenn mentions seeing a warping of air around Kaladin when he rescued him from enemy soldiers. Syl also said it was Kaladin saving the young men of his spearmen squad that drew her to him in the first place. Kaladin just didn't notice her until later.

If it was kaladin why would she say 'men' ? And notice that she said men not a man,which indicates she might even have bonded with multiple knights (at differnt times off course) Why does kaladin sounds so surprised if it was him? No I'm pretty sure the way she said it indicated that it must have been a long time ago.