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Roshar vs Scadrial


cloudjumper

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Yeah this is my point mainly, fighting in a different environment can be tough, but it is adaptable if you have well-trained troops. Something you can't just adapt to is suddenly fighting enemies who are twice your size and five times your strength. It would require a completely separate useage of tactics to what the Alethi are used to, they're used to being the military aggressors, they're used to fighting other formations, they're used to fighting against spearmen primarily. Koloss are none of those, they are giant tanks who are nearly on the level of Shardbearers. An army of 300,000 shardbearers would without question decimate the Alethi forces no? And they rarely fight in any kind of formation, they just charge in by themselves, destroy any enemy formations they can and then slip back if it looks like they're about to be overwhelmed.

Concentration of forces are great against an undertrained enemy of comparable physical ability. Against Koloss? It is the single stupidest thing you can do, because one Koloss can swing through multiple enemies single-handedly, it would be like hoping that you could take down a Shardbearer if you all just stood close enough.

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As the OP was in regards to Era 1 Mistborn, this is what would be available to each side:

 

Scadrial:

Mistborn, Inquisitors, The Lord Ruler, Koloss, Kandra, and a standing Garrison Army

 

Roshar:

Highprince's standing armies, Shardbearers, some fabrials (such as soulcasters but none of Navani's contributions)

 

What they wouldn't have:

 

Scadrial:

Medallions, Feruchemists (would be rare or wiped out by inquisitors for their spikes, as pointed out by Voidus), twin born (born naturally), bendalloy, cadmium, and nicrosil

 

Roshar:

The Knights Radiant, Heralds, fabrials (post Navani, such as repelling, pain reducing, etc)(and spanreeds as pointed out by Voidus)

 

The state of each world as of Era 1

Scadrial:

Either: 1. held by an immortal dictator 2. fractured and warring amongst itself 3. Unified and led by Vin and Elend as full mistborn

 

Roshar:

Either 1. fractured and warring amongst itself 2. Sunmaker unifies them briefly under his rule 3. back to fractured and warring

 

There are simply too many variables to determine who would win including the societal and economical aspects of the battle but if we have to include it, then either both planets are too fragmented to fight, or one is fragmented while the other is organized, or they are both organized and can field equal armies.

 

Pick one

Edited by Pathfinder
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As the OP was in regards to Era 1 Mistborn, this is what would be available to each side:

 

Scadrial:

Mistborn, Feruchemists, Inquisitors, The Lord Ruler, Koloss, Kandra, and a standing Garrison Army

 

Roshar:

Highprince's standing armies, Shardbearers, some fabrials (such as soulcasters and spanreeds, but none of Navani's contributions)

 

What they wouldn't have:

 

Scadrial:

Medallions, twin born (born naturally), bendalloy, cadmium, and nicrosil

 

Roshar:

The Knights Radiant, Heralds, fabrials (post Navani, such as repelling, pain reducing, etc)

 

The state of each world as of Era 1

Scadrial:

Either: 1. held by an immortal dictator 2. fractured and warring amongst itself 3. Unified and led by Vin and Elend as full mistborn

 

Roshar:

Either 1. fractured and warring amongst itself 2. Sunmaker unifies them briefly under his rule 3. back to fractured and warring

 

There are simply too many variables to determine who would win including the societal and economical aspects of the battle but if we have to include it, then either both planets are too fragmented to fight, or one is fragmented while the other is organized, or they are both organized and can field equal armies.

 

Pick one

Spanreeds IIRC are fairly recent inventions, they probably wouldn't have them at the time of era 1. I'd also rule out Scadrial having feruchemists since the army is presumably led by TLR.

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Spanreeds IIRC are fairly recent inventions, they probably wouldn't have them at the time of era 1. I'd also rule out Scadrial having feruchemists since the army is presumably led by TLR.

Good point. I have edited my post to reflect these.

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Calling koloss tanks is a good analogy -- they are heavily armored, pack a punch, and move fast. They really need to be thought of as cavalry. Which us takes us back to Alethi formations -- they don't have any for something like the koloss. Phalanx units are infantry vs. infantry. In fact, cavalry significantly reduced the useful of the phalanx style shield walls. There's the anti-cavalry version, with shield and polearms, but I don't see how that kind of shield wall survives more than one wave of koloss. Also, those would be particularly susceptible to lurchers since they are braced to deal with a push, not a pull. And cavalry against a koloss seems doomed to failure since koloss have speed and maneuverability.

The other problem I see. Morale and stamina. Neither are an issue for the koloss compared to the Alethi, but I do not feel like that is really being factored in, beyond possibly assuming the Alethi have enough forces to swap in fresh units, but it's not clear they will have time to do that.

Edited by Argel
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Calling koloss tanks is a good analogy -- they are hevily armored, pack a punch, and move fast. They really need to be thought of as cavalry. Which us takes us back to Alewthi formations -- they don't have any for something like the koloss. Phalanx units are infantry vs. infantry. In fact, cavalry significantly reduced the useful of the phalanx style shield walls. There's the anti-cavalry version, with shield and polearms, but I don't see how that kind of shield wall survives more than one wave of koloss. Also, those would be particularly susceptbbile to lurchers since they are braced to deal with a push, not a pull.  And cavalry against a koloss seems doomed to failure since koloss are have speed and maneuverability.

 

That's the other problem I see. Morale and stamina. Neither are an issue for the koloss compared to the Alethi, but I do not feel like that is really being factored in, beyond possibly assuming the Alethi have enough forces to swap in fresh units, but it's not clear they will have time to do that.

Are we back to assuming the full forces of Scadrial then? In that case it's an overwhelming victory for Scadrial, it was a few pages ago but I was saying that the Koloss could beat the Alethi pretty much single-handedly so I thought we were still discussing that. Yeah if you give the Scadrians metalborn as well then they win by a huge margin. Lurchers and coinshots are just way too useful against an opposing army. Which is not even getting into Mistborn.

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How could the koloss be controlled in your post TLR/pre HoA scenario? Could they be hered back after a charge, etc.? More complex maneuvers still an option?

As of the WoA, Vin had duralumin. So the capability was there though she did not have the knowledge yet. Also, though taken with a grain of salt, the Mistborn Adventure game states that when multiple soothers of normal power sooth a Koloss, they can gain control without duralumin. So it is certainly possible to control them after the Lord Ruler, but prior to Hero of Ages. 

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How could the koloss be controlled in your post TLR/pre HoA scenario? Could they be hered back after a charge, etc.? More complex maneuvers still an option?

That was one of the main reasons I suggested that timeframe, limited numbers of Koloss and they can't really be controlled.

 

 

As of the WoA, Vin had duralumin. So the capability was there though she did not have the knowledge yet. Also, though taken with a grain of salt, the Mistborn Adventure game states that when multiple soothers of normal power sooth a Koloss, they can gain control without duralumin. So it is certainly possible to control them after the Lord Ruler, but prior to Hero of Ages. 

I'll have to check but I believe that was also mentioned in the Hero of Ages on the messages TLR left behind so I think it's canon.

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The Lord Ruler, although he could destroy armies alone, recalls being beheaded, burned, and flayed, by various people trying to kill him. He does have military experience as he still had to conquer the world after changing it. So I'm not sure about him, I guess it depends how motivated he is to act proactively.

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In all fairness Scadrial is in the second Trilogy and SA is only on the second book.

Once the KR are back up and running it would suddenly be a much closer fight and before the war would their be trade?

Would Roshar suddenly have access to Gun Powder??

 

But at the moment definitely Scadrial, although i much prefer Roshar's Stormlight Archive story   B)  B)  B)  B)  B)  B)  B)

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In all fairness Scadrial is in the second Trilogy and SA is only on the second book.

Once the KR are back up and running it would suddenly be a much closer fight and before the war would their be trade?

Would Roshar suddenly have access to Gun Powder??

 

But at the moment definitely Scadrial, although i much prefer Roshar's Stormlight Archive story   B)  B)  B)  B)  B)  B)  B)

Depends on what point Scadrial is compared to Roshar, 300,000 Koloss would still give Radiants a run for their money since there were probably around a thousand Radiants all told. Likewise firearms would be difficult for them to handle. And of course TLR could just murder them all the second he lands. And now that Era 2 has knowledge of the Medallions that's a pretty hard one to justify them loosing too.

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Also, though taken with a grain of salt, the Mistborn Adventure game states ...

 

Unless sated otherwise, the MAG is canon:

 

Series author Brandon Sanderson has even provided commentary and original fiction, and approved

thisas an official expansion of the setting....

 

 

And out of the supplements for Terris, Skaa, and AoL respectivley, the only one with a disclaimer is AoL:

 

 

FROM BRANDON

In order to make The Alloy of Law setting work as a game, many of the mechanics make assumptions about and extrapolate upon the magic system presented in the books. All are in the full spirit of the novels; not all are canon.

 

The book on the Terris makes no mention one way or the other (at least the version I have), but I believe "canon" is the default. The one about the Skaa mentions this on the back cover:

 

Developed in cooperation with Brandon Sanderson, this guide expands the canon of the novels

 

Note that the one on the Terris was the first supplement, so they may have overlooked mentioning if it was canon or not. I'm pretty sure though that the default for the MAG is canon.

 

It really is great to have an author so engaged that he reviews the gamebooks, provides additional short stories with them, etc.!!!

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That was one of the main reasons I suggested that timeframe, limited numbers of Koloss and they can't really be controlled.

 

 

I'll have to check but I believe that was also mentioned in the Hero of Ages on the messages TLR left behind so I think it's canon.

 

 

Unless sated otherwise, the MAG is canon:

 

 

And out of the supplements for Terris, Skaa, and AoL respectivley, the only one with a disclaimer is AoL:

 

 

The book on the Terris makes no mention one way or the other (at least the version I have), but I believe "canon" is the default. The one about the Skaa mentions this on the back cover:

 

 

Note that the one on the Terris was the first supplement, so they may have overlooked mentioning if it was canon or not. I'm pretty sure though that the default for the MAG is canon.

 

It really is great to have an author so engaged that he reviews the gamebooks, provides additional short stories with them, etc.!!!

Thank you both for confirming. I was not sure which is why I said take it with a grain of salt. So then the only question would be, would the leaders of the army have the knowledge to know to group up their soothers to take control of each of the koloss. Then you would only need one soother from the group to control X number of koloss. Kind of like the half men with trollocs. 

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I'll have to check but I believe that was also mentioned in the Hero of Ages on the messages TLR left behind so I think it's canon.

 

No, I remember that from HoA, too.  Multiple soothers and rioters can, together, control Koloss.  It's certainly canon, regardless of the status of the MAG.

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I don't even know anymore if this is the topic where we discussed Pushing on the Shardblades. However, I found a WoB in favor of Shardbearers:
 

 

BRANDON SANDERSON (paraphrased)

Brandon said that theoretically you can push/pull Shardblades and Shardplates but you would need to wield an incredible amount of power. One example he gave that could so such as a thing is that if you were a Mistborn wielding the full power of the Well of Ascension, you could push/pull Shardblades/plate.
source

As far as I'm concerned, that's WAY ABOVE duraluminium Pushes.

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I don't even know anymore if this is the topic where we discussed Pushing on the Shardblades. However, I found a WoB in favor of Shardbearers:

 

As far as I'm concerned, that's WAY ABOVE duraluminium Pushes.

I seriously doubt you'd need that much, that kind of power would be enough to push on Nightblood not just a regular Shardblade. I imagine it's just because there's not a lot of variation in power levels, the only thing we know of above a Duralumin burn is either allomantic compounding or the well. I'd say it's more likely that he just didn't want to canonize whether or not Duralumin/Nicrosil could.

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But since he didn't even mention duraluminium then we can safely assume that duraluminium is not enough to be able to affect Shards.

Roshar is back in the game!

Well saying that the wells could doesn't mean that Duralumin couldn't. And as I said he may just be unwilling to canonize it one way or the other at present. But even if not it's still a pretty big loss for Roshar, Scadrial could probably win without deploying a single metalborn depending on what era each world was in. Koloss or guns, either would do a decent job of decimating the Rosharans and either is likely more than capable of taking out Shardbearers.

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HoA did say that each mist-metal pull or push was like duralumin so i guess they're somewhat comparable

And I hate to drag this in from the other thread, but we have a legitimate Mistborn book quote saying that TFE can muster millions of soldiers

Edited by Voidus
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HoA did say that each mist-metal pull or push was like duralumin so i guess they're somewhat comparable

But holding the power of the Well was enough to move planets, raise mountains and so on. Simple burning mists isn't even close to that.

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But holding the power of the Well was enough to move planets, raise mountains and so on. Simple burning mists isn't even close to that.

The mists leveled a giant building pretty easily, they're certainly up there. I also wouldn't call burning the mists 'simple' in the least.

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Regarding the Mistborn Adventure Game, do we have a thread somewhere with all of the relevant, new information gathered up? 

 

I don't think comparing Scadrial's forces w/ the koloss against a technologically inferior Roshar is a fair matchup. To make this interesting, as others said, we need Elend's empire w/ a limited amount of koloss against the Rosharian forces.

 

If you want to include TLR, you'd need the Heralds to counteract him. Even then it's probably a whitewash though

Edited by Varangian
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I don't even know anymore if this is the topic where we discussed Pushing on the Shardblades. However, I found a WoB in favor of Shardbearers:

 

As far as I'm concerned, that's WAY ABOVE duraluminium Pushes.

that seems counter to the WoB that preceded it, which are actually transcribed, instead of paraphrases:

 

Q:  Will Allomancy affect Shardblades?

A:  It cannot affect Shardblades.  Well, cannot is a strong term.  Things with innate Investiture are much more difficult to affect by any of the magics at all.  Which is why it's very hard for Szeth to bind people or lash people whering Shardplate to the ceiling.  In the same way Allomancy wouldn't be able to push on it without some help.  Duralumin with a strong Push would probably do it.

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