Roshar vs Scadrial

[8bitBob]

1 minute ago, The One Who Connects said:

Unless I misinterpreted you, you put a warrior above an assassin in a fight, but then considered Mistborn (Assassin) as equivalent to the Assassin in White, who trumps Shardbearers (Warriors) without too much trouble.

Hmm? Is this referring to my opening paragraph where I say they're not used as soldiers? Or because of how I described Mistborn using underhanded tactics to take down Radiants? Either way, this wasn't really so much a commentary on whether or not they could fight them, and more a commentary on the fact that, due to their cultural and societal influences, Mistborn are not likely to just try to take them in a straight up fight. They'll play dirty, and the conflict and their power set rewards them for doing so, so their natural tactics favor them.

Basically, I think a Mistborn could probably take anything Roshar fields in a straight fight, but I also think they have no reason or inclination to do so.

[Blackhoof]

6 hours ago, Erunion said:

Just checking up on this thread and chiming in; as mentioned back in the first couple of pages, a Rosharan phalanx is almost the perfect choice to fight koloss. The only thing better would be a Tercio. Phalanxes are meant to hold, and to push against an incredible crush. They also give you depth of spears. The first row stuck? Good thing there are 10 more rows behind. 

Reread Way of Kings and you'll see how a Rosharan army is supposed to work - proper formations are described in contrast to amarams undisciplined forces. The combination of shorter spears and longer spears (and possibly pikes) is ideal when facing an irregular force of lightly armoured heavy infantry/light cavalry. The only concern would be securing the flanks. 

 

Against human soldiers perhaps, but Koloss are literally 3-4x as strong as a regular human, have hide and layers of muscle that is difficult to penetrate, and feel little pain when in a rage. 

Now, this might be the best available way to fight Koloss, but I don't think it would be effective. Heck, I'm not even sure it IS the best way- those soldiers all pressed together? A Koloss could disrupt the ranks easily just by grabbing and flinging away a spear. A full charge would buckle those tight ranks, soldier pushed into soldier. And the Koloss have no concern with running into the spears, and then staying impaled while the next rank knocks them out of the way and starts pulping soldiers directly with their swords. Yes, the first few ranks of Koloss will be impaled and die- but there are so many, crawling over each other and ramming each other that the sheer weight and ferocity of their charge will break spears and pikes and allow them to reach the infantry.

A phalanx is not effective against an enemy that isn't scared of a wall of spears.

Didn't one poster (forget who) mention that historically, phalanxes fared poorly against the Gauls, who were strong, individually-powerful fighters as opposed to the tight disciplined ranks of another phalanx?

And as I posted earlier- I don't believe that the Alethi use proper phalanxes as if they were Macedonians under Alexander the Great. Personally it seems that they are much less strict than that. The spear-training that Kaladin showed belies the idea that soldiers are just trained to stay in formation and stab, like a phalanx.

 

 

5 hours ago, 8bitBob said:

Chiming back in to say: this. I touched on it in my original post, but this bears further elaboration. Up to this point, Mistborn have been used almost exclusively as assassins, not soldiers. They're not going to simply line up with the rabble and give impassioned speeches, bravely challenging proto-Radiants to one on one duels. A Mistborn trying to kill a Radiant would probably involve baiting them into a group of Koloss to slaughter (or Skaa. Let's be honest, this is the Final Empire we're talking about) and unleashing as much deadly metal into the air as humanly possible, friendly fire be damned, from a safe position where you hid among the regular troops. Or, you know, killing them in their bed.

Their tactics are fundamentally different, and I believe they're an important factor in this scenario. Regular troops are going to get slaughtered in this conflict by the very real threat of wizards coming to kill you. Scadrial has far more magic to throw around, and so anyone with Plate or Blade is going to be needed in every situation where you don't want your troops to just get completely cut down by coins.

This is where Roshar has a distinct disadvantage: it's really hard to hide a six foot blade, crystalline armor or a flying glowing dude. Mistborn are going to know where most of their targets are at all points in the battle, whereas a Mistborn can be incredibly hard to spot doing their job if they want to. Even Spook, a Tin Savant, mistook the Citizen and his sister for which was a Coinshot, and they weren't even trying to hide. In a conflict that is so heavily weighted upon taking out key targets, this gives Scadrial a large advantage.

Szeth really says it best: this power was not meant for assassins.

I understand someone like Kal could be planted among the troops and go in for an ambush, but every moment they spend not affecting the battle is going to have drastic costs for the Rosharan forces, and they're almost guaranteed going to be engaging from a range anyway. This is even ignoring the very real possibility that Seekers could easily sense Radiants due to the fact that they use far more Investiture than metalborn. It's already confirmed that this is possible, I'm just theorizing that it would be easy.

I just feel the discussion hadn't addressed this properly. Mistborn are not the equivalent of Shardbearers or even proto-Radiants: each and every one of them is an Assassin in White, and that's a whole different beast.

 

That is very true- and I believe that mistborn will use their powers to assassinate Proto-Radiants and other important figures in their war camps before the battle even begins- or after the first few battles. 

 

[Erunion]

@Blackhoof - still significantly disagree with you here. A phalanx-like spear formation provides depth and concentration of force. You don't just have an impenetrable wall or spears constantly stabbing (which Koloss would get through, with casualties), you have wall after wall after wall. The first few rows of spears getting overwhelmed? That's fine - the next few lines will lower their spears and start stabbing, giving the front lines time to crawl out of the way. 

The best counters for a phalanx or pike wall are effective ranged weapons or heavily armoured infantry (like German zweihanders). The armoured infantry are also a best counter, but one that will cost heavy casualties. 

The koloss, while powerful, have no armour and die to stabs. Also remember that only the few are truly huge/strong. Unpowered Elend Venture could kill a smaller, normal koloss in a knife fight/grappling match. 

[Blackhoof]

1 minute ago, Erunion said:

@Blackhoof - still significantly disagree with you here. A phalanx-like spear formation provides depth and concentration of force. You don't just have an impenetrable wall or spears constantly stabbing (which Koloss would get through, with casualties), you have wall after wall after wall. The first few rows of spears getting overwhelmed? That's fine - the next few lines will lower their spears and start stabbing, giving the front lines time to crawl out of the way. 

The best counters for a phalanx or pike wall are effective ranged weapons or heavily armoured infantry (like German zweihanders). The armoured infantry are also a best counter, but one that will cost heavy casualties. 

The koloss, while powerful, have no armour and die to stabs. Also remember that only the few are truly huge/strong. Unpowered Elend Venture could kill a smaller, normal koloss in a knife fight/grappling match. 

 

Considering their strength, muscle mass and thick hide, they are effectively armoured troops to my mind. And their weapons and mass give them reach- enough to attack the front row of enemies from the end of their spears. 

A phalanx requires being able to take the brunt of the enemy charge and remain standing- I'm unconvinced that humans can do that against Koloss.

That said, I definiely see where you are coming from. I just don't think that humans are strong enough, even en masse, to avoid being scattered by a concerted Koloss charge.

 

Yes Elend killed one of the smaller, least common types of Koloss, by taking it by surprise in a rush attack to the neck before it got into a berserk fury. You could take out an armoured knight the same way with a knife to his neck gap if he was surprised. Most Koloss are larger than that, but ALL are strong. They all have the spikes of human strength, after all.

 

Lastly, I am unconvinced that the Alethi actually utilize tactics that you describe, making this an interesting, but irrelevant, tangent on the topic of Roshar vs Scadrial.

[Farnsworth]

There is one thing that all the posts I have seen have failed to address. And that is when this battle is taking place. In Scadrial, the Final Empire essentially never changed. That was kind of the problem with the Final Empire. Roshar, however, during Era 1, went through a lot of changes. Is this before or after Szeth basically decimated the leadership of the entire planet? Are the Voidbringers fighting along with the humans? Are the Heralds? Are the Amians? The Unmade? Also, when you say "Roshar" do you mean the entire system (including Ashyn and Braize) or just the planet? While TFE never really changed, Roshar did a lot.

[asterion137]

11 hours ago, The One Who Connects said:

@asterion137 I can count maybe 30 Mistborn, give or take about 5, but nowhere do I see 50-60 sounding feasible. Is the original 10 count too low? Probably, but that depends on Noble politics. If we have TLR keep some Inquisitors back on Scadrial to keep the peace, then a few Nobles will keep some Allomancer presence to protect against backstabbing "partners."

I don't know why 50-60 mistborn seems that improbable when at least 25 (a conservative estimate) can be accounted for in the series. We definitely only meet a tiny fraction of the nobility in the Final Empire so it seems likely that there are many more mistborn behind the scenes.

Quote

Im curious why you think Scadrial has 3:1 more soldiers than Roshar. Mostly because you seem to be the only one who puts it anywhere near that high.

I mean everyone seems to ignore/forget the kelsier quote that says TLR can gather "literally millions" of soldiers which is why everyone else pegs numbers at being roughly even. Even 2 million skaa + koloss, which is the most conservative interpretation of millions, is close to 3:1

Quote

Coin to the eyeslit will more than likely work(I don't think the coins are all that wide) but until such point as our Mistborn make the connection that coins do little/nothing to Shardplate, all the Atium in the world won't teach them new tactics on where to aim. These are assassins who use glass knives and spraying coins. They are used to a much different aiming tactic than precision.

Oh and here's a good question: Does Atium improve accuracy, or does it improve your speed of processing/using the information that you "see" via Atium shadows? The former makes Mistborn Snipers feasible, the latter does not. Without training in long distance aiming via bows/rifles, increased processing power won't create skills you don't have. Unless of course you have a counterexample of someone using Atium from long range..

I think coin to the eyeslit is the logical thing to try after the first few coins seem to do nothing (see: kaladin vs shardbearer) and a mistborn can definitely survive long enough to try a few different things because of atium. I agree that mistborn don't normally like the idea of aiming that much but a dagger to the eye a la kaladin would have the same effect. Duralumin and steel for inquisitors should work too. Or duralumin and pewter and a heavy weapon. The Shardbearer has no option except waiting for the mistborn to run out of atium.

 

11 hours ago, The One Who Connects said:

Unless I misinterpreted you, you put a warrior above an assassin in a fight, but then considered Mistborn (Assassin) as equivalent to the Assassin in White, who trumps Shardbearers (Warriors) without too much trouble.

He put mistborn (assassin) above protoradiant(warrior) who can fight shardbearers(warrior) and then compared each mistborn(assassin) to Szeth(assassin) who trumps shardbearers(warriors) so the >/</= math works out

[The One Who Connects]

On 4/23/2017 at 8:14 AM, 8bitBob said:

Is this referring to my opening paragraph where I say they're not used as soldiers? Or because of how I described Mistborn using underhanded tactics to take down Radiants?

Eh, little of both. Your response makes it clear that I misinterpreted it the first time.

On 4/23/2017 at 8:10 PM, asterion137 said:

I don't know why 50-60 Mistborn seems that improbable when at least 25 (a conservative estimate) can be accounted for in the series.

Physically confirmed Noble Mistborn count is around 6. 3 for Venture, 2 for Elarial, and the one Cett uses in WoA. Following the average of 2 per Great House, that's 20 to start. Add a few random ones from various outer Houses and you've got about 30 (Which is where I saw it as reasonable.)

On 4/23/2017 at 8:10 PM, asterion137 said:

I think coin to the eyeslit is the logical thing to try after the first few coins seem to do nothing (see: kaladin vs shardbearer) [...] but a dagger to the eye a la kaladin would have the same effect.

I agree, but the Shardplate from Shallan's drawings didn't have that obvious eyeholes(at least without a face in the helm to judge) so I wouldn't say it is the next choice. The gaps between plate seem like a good place to start against full body plate armor. We know that wont work, but they don't know that yet. But I agree that the advantage won't last forever. Guess it'd end up depending on whether the Mistborn runs out of ideas before they run out of Atium.

[Rich2244]

On 24/04/2017 at 2:10 AM, asterion137 said:

I don't know why 50-60 mistborn seems that improbable when at least 25 (a conservative estimate) can be accounted for in the series. We definitely only meet a tiny fraction of the nobility in the Final Empire so it seems likely that there are many more mistborn behind the scenes.

I mean everyone seems to ignore/forget the kelsier quote that says TLR can gather "literally millions" of soldiers which is why everyone else pegs numbers at being roughly even. Even 2 million skaa + koloss, which is the most conservative interpretation of millions, is close to 3:1

I think coin to the eyeslit is the logical thing to try after the first few coins seem to do nothing (see: kaladin vs shardbearer) and a mistborn can definitely survive long enough to try a few different things because of atium. I agree that mistborn don't normally like the idea of aiming that much but a dagger to the eye a la kaladin would have the same effect. Duralumin and steel for inquisitors should work too. Or duralumin and pewter and a heavy weapon. The Shardbearer has no option except waiting for the mistborn to run out of atium.

 

He put mistborn (assassin) above protoradiant(warrior) who can fight shardbearers(warrior) and then compared each mistborn(assassin) to Szeth(assassin) who trumps shardbearers(warriors) so the >/</= math works out

Just on the last point, while that makes sense you can't compare a protoradiant to a shardbearer and assume they are equal, szeth was said to be stronger than them but we known Kaladin a protoradiant beat him.

[Knight Oblivion]

I don't remember if I've mentioned this in this topic or not, but on the physiological adaptation side of things, which includes battlefield location, Scadrial has a clear advantage over Roshar. Between Rosharans being adapted for a lower gravity environment and their susceptibility to disease (anybody remember the Purelake "plague" of the common cold?) they're going to have a fair amount of issues before even discussing tactics and resources.

 

[The Technovore]

I think something that we've failed to consider is the effects of proto-Radiants. 

 

Taking Erunion's example: pre-TFE Scadrial and just-before-WoK Roshar, both fighting over some third planet, here's my analysis:

If the Nahel bond still works on other planets, (if it doesn't, perhaps we should consider whether the power of Allomancy would work on Planet-3) there would likely be many proto-Radiants in the Army that the Rosharans bring to Planet-3. Most wouldn't even be likely to have spoken any oaths, it would likely be a bunch of soldiers with weird spren following them around for some reason.

Now consider how we've gotten our stories proto-Radiants turned into full Radiants. Kaladin had to survive on the worst military job ever, then had to save a Highprince, then had to stop two shardbearers from killing the king. Dalinar, a general of the army, willingly entered the Nahel bond just to keep his people alive. A similar case can be made for Shallan. In most cases, these people become Radiants from necessity. To protect and to serve.

Can you imagine how many proto-Radiant soldiers would quickly find themselves glowing in a situation as desperate as two planets clashing against each other? With armies facing up against blue-skinned monstrosities? Spiked-through powerhouses and people that can manipulate armor? The threat of spies impersonating commanders, generals being killed in the night?

If the Rosharans ever found themselves being routed and slaughtered at the hands of TLR's Mistborn, you can bet that they would be quickly retaliating with some 80-800 Radiants glowing like crazy. And no amount of Allomantic Soothing can convince a skaa that their not about to die at the hands of the GUY THAT'S FREAKING GLOWING WITH WHITE FIRE. 

Even if the Rosharans would have a hard time supplying large quantities of stormlight-filled gems, Radiants don't really need too much stormlight. Even small amounts inside a proto-to-full-fledged Radiant would turn them into an ultra-effective-practically-unkillable fighting machine. It's the difference between a Tank, and Iron Man. And even if you had conserve battery power, some 800 Iron Men would be an incredible advantage.

 

TL;DR Proto-Radiants finding themselves in an inter-planetary war would quickly turn into a massive magical advantage for Team Roshar. 

Edited May 1, 2017 by The Technovore

[Samaldin]

@The Technovore I believe you´re vastly overestimating the number of proto-radiants. I believe even at the time with the most KR there weren´t enough to throw a hundred of them at every single Mistborn (with Squires it could be different). The number of proto-radiants would also be limited by the number of living and willing spren to form the bond. Before the recreance nearly every spren which could was bound, with most of them "dead" are there even enough Spren for more than maybe a few hundred KR? (How fast are new spren created, or aren´t they created at all and the ones we see just couldn´t find a KR to bond before the recreance?). Also KR may not need much Stormlight to be effective, they need a decent amout to stay effective for more than a few minute. If their really are as many proto-KR as you believe that adds up to a quite large amount of Stormlight, which the Rosharians would rather need for Soulcasters (and for Shardplate which i believe would be more effective than the proto KR) or they give up their greatest advantage. Allomancy on the other hand could also be hindered on a third Planet depending on how much metal is minied there (you can´t really wage war on another planet and open a mine there) but the resurces would be easier the replenish since you probably could worldhop with a decent amount of metal

tldr: I don´t believe proto KR would have nearly the effect you guess and if anything the magical advantage would be for Scadrial

[Yata]

@The Technovore the Metallic Arts could be used without problems everywhere.

Nahel Bond instead Will have problems to be taken offworld as the Spren is mainly linked to their homeland and they Will find hard to leave It. The Surgebinding Need also a more esoteric juice to work.

Lastly, Roshar boosts Symbiotic magics so a Radiant Who manage to carry his Spren offworld and retain his Powers, Will probably find them weaker and possibly cutted off from some of them.

In the end, Metallic Arts are among the easier magics to use offworld

Edited May 7, 2017 by Yata

[The Technovore]

Well I guess that's my contribution to the conversation effectively sunk 

@Samaldin and, just to clarify, I wasn't thinking 80-800 proto-Radiants per mistborn, but anywhere in that range inhabiting the entire army, the point being that a weaponized proto-Radiant is nearly as effective a killing machine as a full Shardbearer, and doubles in killing ability with every oath spoken, which my point being is that you find more and more oaths spoken as this massive interplanetary war goes on.

But then I guess it's a moot point since @Yata confirmed that the Nahel bond would definitely have problems outside Roshar. Bummer. R.I.P Rosharans then 

 

EDIT: Reading a post a few pages back mentioning a WoB that stated that "some Radiant orders had membership in the low thousands", I wanna ask. Are we all in agreement that if the Rosharans got access to all the Shards that the Radiants used to have, they would win hands down? Cuz I have a hard time imagining the Scadrians being able to stop an army with more than 300 shardbearers.

Edited May 2, 2017 by The Technovore

[Yata]

52 minutes ago, The Technovore said:

EDIT: Reading a post a few pages back mentioning a WoB that stated that "some Radiant orders had membership in the low thousands", I wanna ask. Are we all in agreement that if the Rosharans got access to all the Shards that the Radiants used to have, they would win hands down? Cuz I have a hard time imagining the Scadrians being able to stop an army with more than 300 shardbearers.

Thousands of Shardbearers would really a fearsome Force.

Just as the Number of Shards increases. Also the possibility of losing some Shards and give to Scadrial's side an huge help increases.

I want Just to add a couple of points.

1) Also Shardblades Will have problem to leave their homeland, I could not say the same for the Plates as we don't know for sure their origin.

2) I don't follow this Thread usually, so maybe this point was already raised. But Scadrial has a way to turn a Shardblade into a less fearsome weapon.

A Shardblade Will have an hard time to cut an Invested object so Metalminds are a decent protection aganist the fearsome Edge of a Blade.

I could see some feruchemist simply storing their attributes to make Shard-resistant equipment.

[Oversleep]

18 hours ago, Yata said:

Lastly, Roshar boosts Symbiotic magics so a Radiant Who manage to carry his Spren offworld and retain his Powers, Will probably find them weaker and possibly cutted off from some of them.

Is this confirmed (apart from AU essays stating that symbiotic spren bonds are common on Roshar)?

15 hours ago, Yata said:

A Shardblade Will have an hard time to cut an Invested object so Metalminds are a decent protection aganist the fearsome Edge of a Blade.

I could see some feruchemist simply storing their attributes to make Shard-resistant equipment.

I doubt it very much:

Quote

Q: Could a filled (fully feruchemical charge) metalmind block a Shardblade (or at least, resist a bit)?
A: Yes, it could. Excellent question.

source

Now I know we have clashed over this WoB in the past but I still stand by my interpretation - that a fully filled metalmind would only resist Shardblade a bit, not outright block it. And filling a metalmind to the hilt is not easy - you need to do a lot of storing. First time we have seen it in BoM and still we would need a much bigger metalmind than a bracer.

[Yata]

8 minutes ago, Oversleep said:

Is this confirmed (apart from AU essays stating that symbiotic spren bonds are common on Roshar)?

The opposite is confirmed, that "Symbiotic magic is stronger on Roshar".

9 minutes ago, Oversleep said:

I doubt it very much:

Now I know we have clashed over this WoB in the past but I still stand by my interpretation - that a fully filled metalmind would only resist Shardblade a bit, not outright block it. And filling a metalmind to the hilt is not easy - you need to do a lot of storing. First time we have seen it in BoM and still we would need a much bigger metalmind than a bracer.

Oh that WoB, it's mine (my first one...give me a second into the feel train).

Anyway Yeah it's possible the Metalmind didn't block at 100% a Shardblade (at least not multiple times) but indeed is a greater improvement from be cutted without any kind of defense. Notice that a Shardblade is already slow down from the amount of Investiture that make an Human's Soul so It's not to hard to believe a Metalmind could do better.

There are Metalminds easily to fill and made of decent strong material. An Ironmind could be filled with someone's 100% weight without problems for the Feruchemist...This mean it could accumulate a good amount of charge over time. 

[Yitzi2]

I think the biggest thing to keep in mind here is that Roshar is very dependent on particular key personnel (Shardbearers, ardents to use soulcasters), and Mistborn often serve as assassins.  Roshar could almost certainly win a pitched battle at the beginning, but Scadrial can use assassination to even and then reverse the odds.

[The One Who Connects]

On 5/1/2017 at 2:01 PM, Knight Oblivion said:

their susceptibility to disease (anybody remember the Purelake "plague" of the common cold?)

This was mentioned, and was basically a moot point. Roshar is susceptible to Scadrian diseases, Scadrial is susceptible to Rosharan diseases. The "plague" in question was literally the sniffles, and not particularly lethal. Disease wins, and both armies lose.

On 5/1/2017 at 8:50 PM, Yata said:

maybe this point was already raised. But Scadrial has a way to turn a Shardblade into a less fearsome weapon.

Interpretation apparently still up for debate, but nobody has brought this up before. In the situation: this really depends on whether TFE even has much Feruchemy at its disposal and if they can make the connections though, so how effective it is wont be an issue for a while.

On 5/3/2017 at 11:10 PM, Yitzi2 said:

I think the biggest thing to keep in mind here is that Roshar is very dependent on particular key personnel (Shardbearers, Ardents to use soulcasters), and Mistborn often serve as assassins.

I don't see the Ardents ever getting targeted, because a spy would have to both witness enough Ardents Soulcasting to find the value in killing them, but not witness enough to realize that the Soulcaster itself is the magical part and try to steal those instead.

Shardbearers would definitely be targeted, but that's the same sort of issue. A spy would have to see who gets out of the Plate to know who to kill, and be able to give that information back to HQ. Full-Body Armor + Helmets make recognizing people a tad difficult if you don't know them or their plate by name. Then you have to send a written description of them back to base because cameras don't exist, and hope your assassins don't misinterpret it. There is also the fact that unless the Plate gets stolen too, another Lighteyes could be trained to use it and then you're back at square one.

[Jondesu]

1 hour ago, The One Who Connects said:

This was mentioned, and was basically a moot point. Roshar is susceptible to Scadrian diseases, Scadrial is susceptible to Rosharan diseases. The "plague" in question was literally the sniffles, and not particularly lethal. Disease wins, and both armies lose.

Actually, this is an interesting one.  See, while the Scadrian diseases might not be that deadly to Rosharans, like the sniffles we know about, Rosharans may simply not really have any diseases that would spread to the Scadrians.  They're so healthy that a bunch of people with a mild cold is a plague, remember?  Being infused with Stormlight and/or whatever other factors lead to that on Roshar may mean there simply isn't anything they could pass to the Scadrians.  Of course, it's also possible that there's now super-bugs on Roshar since they'd have to be really hardy to even survive, and that those would be crazy deadly to the Scadrians, but that doesn't seem exceptionally likely to me.

[The One Who Connects]

18 minutes ago, Jondesu said:

Rosharans may simply not really have any diseases that would spread to the Scadrians.

They still put a lot of stock in medicinal understanding beyond just combat surgery though. Kaladin knows how to cure(or at the very least help fight) several diseases/infections. It's one of the things that sets him apart from the others in the slave wagon scene (about "the grindings" I think) there are several others with names that I cannot recall, but the fact that they are more healthy doesn't mean they don't have any sicknesses

[Jondesu]

1 hour ago, The One Who Connects said:

They still put a lot of stock in medicinal understanding beyond just combat surgery though. Kaladin knows how to cure(or at the very least help fight) several diseases/infections. It's one of the things that sets him apart from the others in the slave wagon scene (about "the grindings" I think) there are several others with names that I cannot recall, but the fact that they are more healthy doesn't mean they don't have any sicknesses

Ah, good point, I'd forgotten mention of those diseases. Might be particularly bad for Scadrian armies then, or be a neutral disadvantage to both like you said.

[Yitzi2]

On 5/5/2017 at 2:43 PM, The One Who Connects said:

This was mentioned, and was basically a moot point. Roshar is susceptible to Scadrian diseases, Scadrial is susceptible to Rosharan diseases. The "plague" in question was literally the sniffles, and not particularly lethal. Disease wins, and both armies lose.

Interpretation apparently still up for debate, but nobody has brought this up before. In the situation: this really depends on whether TFE even has much Feruchemy at its disposal and if they can make the connections though, so how effective it is wont be an issue for a while.I don't see the Ardents ever getting targeted, because a spy would have to both witness enough Ardents Soulcasting to find the value in killing them, but not witness enough to realize that the Soulcaster itself is the magical part and try to steal those instead.

This is a valid point, though "Mistborn could get in and steal the soulcasters" would have much the same effect on the war as killing the Ardents would (if not more so).

Shardbearers would definitely be targeted, but that's the same sort of issue. A spy would have to see who gets out of the Plate to know who to kill, and be able to give that information back to HQ. Full-Body Armor + Helmets make recognizing people a tad difficult if you don't know them or their plate by name. Then you have to send a written description of them back to base because cameras don't exist, and hope your assassins don't misinterpret it. There is also the fact that unless the Plate gets stolen too, another Lighteyes could be trained to use it and then you're back at square one.

True.  Though most of those problems disappear if they simply kill the shardbearer while he's wearing the plate/wielding the blade; even pewter would likely be enough to give the Mistborn an advantage in close combat, and atium would make it a foregone conclusion.

[skeleton666]

Once the get a shard they could have pewter full shard-bearer  while roshar would have a hard time stealing powers, unless they figured out hemulogie 

[RShara]

13 minutes ago, skeleton666 said:

Once the get a shard they could have pewter full shard-bearer  while roshar would have a hard time stealing powers, unless they figured out hemulogie 

FYI, this thread is over two years old. You generally want to start a new one rather than "necro" an old one such as this.

[Predel Relier]

 

As a late contribution to the discussion I would like to give some probably irrelevant points:

About the numbers I allow myself to make a little reflection: In the medieval context the maximum recruitment (by this I mean
in times of war) between nations is equivalent to 1-2% of theirs population, so it´s said that TLR and the Ministry of Steel can raise an army of 1 million
of soldiers if they wanted to. Considering Roshar has more population than TFE it should exceed its numbers by far, but one thing must be considered: the majority of the rosharian population is concentrated in the west, noted for its low level and number of soldiers compared to the bellicose Vorin Kingdoms (an exception would be Azir for example because can reach a standard number). The same would apply to the Terrisan population in TFE. 300k koloss would finish balancing in terms of pure number and perhaps due to authoritarian nature of TLR government could recruit many more skaa, something that except Alethkar and Jah Keved (perhaps) no one in Roshar can do.
That it´s possible to recruit much more in Roshar is true, but they would be soldiers as poorly trained as those of TLR and even perhaps physically weaker and demoralizable given their pacifist culture and low gravity environment (considering that it´s said of the skaa that are harder thanks to the physiological intervention of TLR and have rioters among their mistings).

Another issue is that Scadrial in fact does have military generals, although obviously only theorists/academics. Even during the siege of Luthadel
an effective command could be sustained by resorting to the inexperienced nobles and their inherent authority that although inefficient serves to create a command chain.
 This is the case of the obligators who studied ancient military theory, logistics (in the army of Straff during TWoA there is a good example) or they simply have some strategic inclination like Yomen/his advisors with the catapults tactic during THoA. Also, I think I remember that the image of Durrand Erikeller shows him leading an army in battle in Mistborn: House War, indicating that there may be nobles or even entire Houses inclined to militarism (of course they must be very scarce given the prolonged peace). It´s obvious that there is a lack of leadership in the front, tactics and command, but that can be compensated with some thugs acting as seargents (with being noble and having messengers already have half the work and authority assured) along with large numbers of rioters and soothers.

Edited November 27, 2019 by Predel Relier