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Roshar vs Scadrial


cloudjumper

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So I was reading this other article, A war between Scadrial (era 2) and Roshar , and I saw this comment that mentioned a war between Scadrial (era 1) and Roshar, and how that would be a closer fight. So I looked at the topic list, and there was no topic that I found about that. So I decided that I might as well make one, because no one else has done it. Who would win in a war between Roshar and Scadrial? Scadrial and Roshar are right next to each other.               

 

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Numbers

Alethkar has access to over a hundred thousand soldiers on its own. Jah Keved is supposed to be about equal to it, and they probably make up about half of the Rosharian military power. So 450,000 would be a rough estimate of Roshar's strength as of WoK.

In contrast, the Final Empire has access to around a quarter million koloss plus their human armies, which probably are about equal to Roshar's based on how a quarter of the Final empire could muster 120,000 soldiers total (Cett+Yomen's armies).

Scadrian Advantages

However, quantity will not be the only things deciding the war. In terms of soldier quality Scadrial is obviously superior (koloss are said to equal 3 human soldiers). Additionally, there are roughly two dozen mistborn and hundreds of each type of misting as of the first Mistborn book. These would probably make a huge difference on the battlefield as soothers and rioters could rout the Roshar army almost singlehandedly. Coinshots and Thugs would make a huge difference as well;as we have seen, a few coinshots can tear through dozens of soldiers. Also, the Coinshots would be useful in bringing down shardbearers. The Lord Ruler would also make a huge difference, as he can soothe or riot thousands of people at once. However, he can be killed by a shardblade, so it would be unwise for him to fight on the front lines of a Scadrian army (same goes for inquisitors)

Rosharian Advantages

Roshar has two main advantages: Shardbearers and Soulcasters. Soulcasters would be extremely useful in supplying an army and negating the need for a supply line like the one that Scadrial would need. A drawn-out war would therefore favor Roshar and its near-infinite food supply. However, Roshar's main advantage in a pitched battle is its shardbearers. Roshar currently has access to around a hundred shardblades and plates. A shardbearer can mow through hundreds of enemy soldiers in minutes. However, shardbearers are not invincible, as seen in the tower battle at the end of WoK. In normal combat, Shardbearers would have a massive demoralizing effect on an enemy army. However, emotional allomancy will negate the most harmful effects of this, and a duralumin steelpush anchored by iron compounding(inquisitors and TLR are capable of this) will easily tear through shardplate.

Conclusion

In conclusion, I think Scadrial would win due to superior numbers and more common magic, as well as their ability to avoid demoralization and counter shardbearers.

Sorry for the long answer, I couldn't help myself :)

Edited by asterion137
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Again it depends on timeframe, the only way I can see Roshar winning is if Scadrial is post-TLR but pre-HoA, so it's fractured like Roshar is, with different political factions, far fewer metalborn and most importantly no TLR.

Because seriously, TLR could level all of Roshar by himself if he got serious.

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tbh the koloss army could be just as deadly as the everstorm transforming all the parshmen

As could the Seer army from the end of HoA, either Roshar needs to be set when the Knights Radiant were still around or Scadrial has to be from their absolute weakest point in history.

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I agree with basically all of Erunion's analysis. Of course, there are a large number of "wildcard" elements on Scadrial's side, primarily relating to koloss, kandra, and TLR. 

 

Despite the combat we see in Era 1 Mistborn, we still have a fairly poor idea of how effective koloss actually are in sustained combat. Considering they can in theory immediately replenish their numbers by simply inserting spikes into the dying (of which there would probably be quite a large number) and do not seem to actually require food, rest, sleep, etc. they may be much more effective than we can account for. 

 

Likewise, kandra. Most Scadrians at this point are still unaware of the existence of kandra, and in any event Roshar would have no idea they were there. As such, much of Roshar's leadership advantage could probably be quickly negated, either by kandra assuming the roles of important people and subtly messing with the campaign, or by outright assassinating them in complete secret, which would likely leave Rosharan generals bewildered and paranoid. As an aside, I would like to see kandra actually engage opponents directly (though of course they are unlikely to do this without direct provocation), considering the only thing Rosharans have that can actually kill them is Shardblades (and then only a direct hit, presumably, on one or both of their spikes); otherwise they could just consume another's body and continue fighting (similarly, this would make them almost impossible to identify to focus Shardbearers on). Understandably, this would be terrifying. 

 

Another thing that wasn't accounted for is that, inevitably, Scadrian forces will end up with a Shardblade or two, which will then be delegated to A: Inquisitors; B: Mistborn; or C: Kandra. Any of these will have horrifying consequences for Rosharan forces (imagine if a kandra gets a hold of and then bonds a Shardblade. Now literally any person in your camp, including parshmen [easiest disguise ever, right?] could be a Shardbearer waiting for the right moment to assassinate you...). 

 

Finally, the worse the war goes for Scadrial, the more likely it becomes that TLR will personally intervene. And he, for all intents and purposes, is a god; he would, as Voidus pointed out, have little trouble massacring the entirety of the Rosharan army by himself. With him in the picture, it's basically impossible for Roshar to ever win; and even direct combat without him still, I think, favors Scadrial fairly heavily, if only because they can systematically remove Roshar's militiary leadership.

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Even without TLR, the final empire is far and away superior in both numbers and magic, you could in a sense count each Koloss as a magic user in which case they have over 300,000 of them against around 100 in the Alethi army.

The main difference between a Koloss and either heavy infantry or Cavalry is the frankly insane amount of reach they have, combined with the difficulty of killing them and their sheer weight I see them having little trouble in absolutely destroying a shield wall. They may not be Shardbearers but they have almost all the hallmarks of them, very difficult to kill, very long reaching weapon that will kill you in one hit, huge amount of weight to throw around and a massive effect on enemy moral. Oh yeah, and they can eat dirt to stay alive if they need to and replenish their numbers after every battle.

Now, throw the cunning of a Steel Inquisitor or the wisdom of a Kandra behind that army and TLR wouldn't even need to call in the noble allomancers or even the human army.

I also think you're missing the key value of steel and iron mistings in a war, they don't just use coins, they can use any metal, metal which the Rosharan army is still using in spades. The ability to throw off the stance of a dozen people at a time, rip their weapons from their hands, become completely immune to arrows, Lurchers and Coinshots both have a lot of power to use. Which is not even getting into what would happen if they got their hands on Shards. Or Soulcasters for that matter (Since Rosharans are the only ones with religious qualms about using them in battle) Imagine someone with the mobility of a coinshot and the use of a Shardblade, they could leap around the battlefield, reinforcing any area in seconds.

Scadrial has the advantage in strength, mobility and morale. And then there's the Kandra. Immortal shapeshifters who can impersonate anyone, so what happens when half the Rosharan generals call a retreat mid-battle and the other half keep pressing the attack? Or when one 'Highprince' convinces his soldiers to defect to the Scadrial side. Or the gemstones of all your Shardbearers are replaced with nearly dun stones?

In open warfare I'd give a relatively large advantage to Scadrial, if Scadrial uses guerrilla tactics and subterfuge as their powers are most suitable for? Roshar doesn't stand a chance.

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And if Roshar somehow gained an advantage, TLR could reveal new technology to help his forces out. I could see him staying home to guard TWoA but he's not going to let his forces just get wiped out. Though I'm with Voidus. Short version is Scadrial's magic can be used elsewhere much more easily than Roshar's and it has significantly better tactical advantages.

Edited by Argel
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Not to mention that Hemalurgy can be used to buff up any of Scadrial's soldiers at the cost of some prisoners of war. If the battle started to go especially poorly? I would imagine that Inquisitors would being to hemalurgically enhance Scadrian troops.

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Not to mention that Hemalurgy can be used to buff up any of Scadrial's soldiers at the cost of some prisoners of war. If the battle started to go especially poorly? I would imagine that Inquisitors would being to hemalurgically enhance Scadrian troops.

Yup, this is why my suggested times are between the fall of the Final Empire and the start of HoA, when no one who would fight for Scadrial really knows about Hemalurgy, TLR is gone, Koloss are rampant and uncontrollable, Kandra are not likely to participate in large numbers and Metalborn are few and far between.

Otherwise you at least need to have the Rosharan army having a full complement of Knights Radiant rather than just Shardbearers.

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Yup, this is why my suggested times are between the fall of the Final Empire and the start of HoA, when no one who would fight for Scadrial really knows about Hemalurgy, TLR is gone, Koloss are rampant and uncontrollable, Kandra are not likely to participate in large numbers and Metalborn are few and far between.

Otherwise you at least need to have the Rosharan army having a full complement of Knights Radiant rather than just Shardbearers.

 

If Ruin really cared, couldn't he allow the Inquisitors that still exist to fight in this battle(To Ruin the Rosharans?)? I mean, if you strip the inquisitors from the Scadrians, you've removed a large amount of the setting.

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If Ruin really cared, couldn't he allow the Inquisitors that still exist to fight in this battle(To Ruin the Rosharans?)? I mean, if you strip the inquisitors from the Scadrians, you've removed a large amount of the setting.

Well then the Rosharans would have to get the Parshendi too.

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Again it depends on timeframe, the only way I can see Roshar winning is if Scadrial is post-TLR but pre-HoA,

Unless you pick a time before Aharietam. Tons of well trained Knights Radiant vs... unfortunately we don't know. Feruchemists and little to no Mistings (and weak), but I remember that technology was something about first railroads?

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Yup, this is why my suggested times are between the fall of the Final Empire and the start of HoA, when no one who would fight for Scadrial really knows about Hemalurgy, TLR is gone, Koloss are rampant and uncontrollable, Kandra are not likely to participate in large numbers and Metalborn are few and far between.

Otherwise you at least need to have the Rosharan army having a full complement of Knights Radiant rather than just Shardbearers.

 

In that scenario, the Scadrians are likely trying to escape to the new planet, which would make them extremely motivated (i.e. not much to lose). It might actually go worse for Roshar.

 

Allomancy alone gives Scadrial a big advantage. At least until Roshar gets rid of all metal in theoir weapons, armor, gear, camps, etc. Scadrial has much less to adapt to. Edit: at least less changes to gear, etc. to make.

Edited by Argel
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Unless you pick a time before Aharietam. Tons of well trained Knights Radiant vs... unfortunately we don't know. Feruchemists and little to no Mistings (and weak), but I remember that technology was something about first railroads?

lol I was just about to make that point. The time line is a huge issue. If it is Era 1 for mistborn, could anyone figure out how many years preceding the Stormlight archive that is? and then reference the stormlight archive to possibly figure out what was happening in that world at that time? Because as you said, as far as we know, the heralds could be helping out, and have an entire battle trained army of radiants and maybe even the dawnshards too during that time period

Edited by Pathfinder
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In that scenario, the Scadrians are likely trying to escape to the new planet, which would make them extremely motivated (i.e. not much to lose). It might actually go worse for Roshar.

 

Allomancy alone gives Scadrial a big advantage. At least until Roshar gets rid of all metal in theoir weapons, armor, gear, camps, etc. Scadrial has much less to adapt to.

Yeah but in that time period there are far fewer active allomancers, mostly just Vin and the crew in terms of people we can be sure would actually fight.

 

 

Unless you pick a time before Aharietam. Tons of well trained Knights Radiant vs... unfortunately we don't know. Feruchemists and little to no Mistings (and weak), but I remember that technology was something about first railroads?

Well Feruchemists are potentially even worse if they're at all combat oriented, I'm far from the first to point this out but feruchemical steel is just insanely broken. But yeah, that's probably one of the slightly better scenarios.

 

 

lol I was just about to make that point. The time line is a huge issue. If it is Era 1 for mistborn, could anyone figure out how many years preceding the Stormlight archive that is? and then reference the stormlight archive to possibly figure out what was happening in that world at that time? Because as you said, as far as we know, the heralds could be helping out, and have an entire battle trained army of radiants and maybe even the dawnshards too during that time period

about 300 years ago Roshar time? Not much was happening, though definitely no Radiants and no Heralds. That was after the Last Desolation by quite a while, after the Hierocracy and the day of recreance too. 

The Last desolation was before even Rashek or Alendi's time, we don't really have a lot of knowledge on what was going on then so it's hard to say what kind of shape Scadrial would have been in.

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Yeah but in that time period there are far fewer active allomancers, mostly just Vin and the crew in terms of people we can be sure would actually fight.

 

 

Well Feruchemists are potentially even worse if they're at all combat oriented, I'm far from the first to point this out but feruchemical steel is just insanely broken. But yeah, that's probably one of the slightly better scenarios.

 

 

about 300 years ago Roshar time? Not much was happening, though definitely no Radiants and no Heralds. That was after the Last Desolation by quite a while, after the Hierocracy and the day of recreance too. 

The Last desolation was before even Rashek or Alendi's time, we don't really have a lot of knowledge on what was going on then so it's hard to say what kind of shape Scadrial would have been in.

 

Ah that makes sense then, since the Last Desolation was something like a 1000 years ago I think. So if Mistborn precedes Stormlight by 300 years, then yeah Roshar may be even in a worst state as there wouldn't be any radiants to assist at all. 

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Ah that makes sense then, since the Last Desolation was something like a 1000 years ago I think. So if Mistborn precedes Stormlight by 300 years, then yeah Roshar may be even in a worst state as there wouldn't be any radiants to assist at all. 

 

Someone correct me if I am wrong but wasn't the Last Desolation roughly 4500 years before the Way of Kings?

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Yeah but in that time period there are far fewer active allomancers, mostly just Vin and the crew in terms of people we can be sure would actually fight.

 

That could give Roshar a chance, though I would still lean towards Scadrial. Again, "nothing to lose" can be a strong motivator.

 

about 300 years ago Roshar time? Not much was happening, though definitely no Radiants and no Heralds. That was after the Last Desolation by quite a while, after the Hierocracy and the day of recreance too. 

The Last desolation was before even Rashek or Alendi's time, we don't really have a lot of knowledge on what was going on then so it's hard to say what kind of shape Scadrial would have been in.

 

Yeah, but nothing significantly different than now, I would guess. I mean, we don't really have any hints of anything major going on 300 years earlier. Though what was up with the Parshendi and the peace treaty? What was that war like up to that point? Gavilar's assassination led to the Alethi takign the war to the shattered plains, so were the Parshendi harrying them before then?

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That could give Roshar a chance, though I would still lean towards Scadrial. Again, "nothing to lose" can be a strong motivator.

 

 

Yeah, but nothing significantly different than now, I would guess. I mean, we don't really have any hints of anything major going on 300 years earlier. Though what was up with the Parshendi and the peace treaty? What was that war like up to that point? Gavilar's assassination led to the Alethi takign the war to the shattered plains, so were the Parshendi harrying them before then?

The Alethi didn't know the Parshendi (the parshmen were a different story) existed till Dalinar stumbled across them on a chasmfiend hunt with Galivar. Before Galivar was alive, the princedoms were all separate with no unified king. I forgot when Sunmaker did his unification, but that was fleeting too. 

Edited by Pathfinder
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Since this is between WoA and the end of HoA, will Preservation and Ruin be getting along now? Because you didn't pick a time of a Desolation for Roshar, so I assume you meant no shardic influence?

(Koloss aren't being controlled by Ruin, Inquisitors aren't being controlled by Ruin, Kandra not being bound by First contract, Ruin isn't generally storming things up for Scadrians, etc)

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If it was during HoA with no Ruin interference, it all depends on how many koloss Vin and Elend can get a hold of. I'd say more than 150,000 would be enough to win along with their human armies, as long as they have the extra mistings from the mists.

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Since this is between WoA and the end of HoA, will Preservation and Ruin be getting along now? Because you didn't pick a time of a Desolation for Roshar, so I assume you meant no shardic influence?

(Koloss aren't being controlled by Ruin, Inquisitors aren't being controlled by Ruin, Kandra not being bound by First contract, Ruin isn't generally storming things up for Scadrians, etc)

My idea was between the end of Final Empire and the start of HoA, so before they know how to control Koloss and the Inquisitors are absent but not actively trying to murder Scadrial, Kandra would be open to helping in small numbers, etc.

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