Nashan’Elin

The Complete Chart of Hemalurgy

34 posts in this topic

3 hours ago, Vecna said:

I may be alone, but my interpretation of everything that's been said about MAG (in the book itself and outside it) is that things that have appeared in the books before it are correct and things that haven't are close to, but not spoilers, for what's actually happening - so that there can be some sort of game published.  F:Aluminium turns out to be Spiritual Identity, not Personal.  F:Nicrosil is Investiture, and still weird!

Given that once The Lost Metal is out we won't get any more Metallic Arts info for years (and I don't see a huge amount extra becoming clear in TLM either), what we have in the MAG and can tease out of Branderson is literally all we have to speculate on the remaining effects.

 

I'll be over here, in my own little world. :)

I'm not really going to count on whether the MAG book itself says it's canon, to be honest. If it isn't canon, they can say whatever they want, but it isn't canon. Brandon has said many times that what is published in the Cosmere books is canon and that's it. Even things that he says aren't truly canon until they are published (see his current changing of how savantism works as an example). You can disagree and formulate theories based on MAG as much as you want, but it's just not solid evidence in my view.

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On 3/2/2017 at 1:57 AM, BeskarKomrk said:

I'm not really going to count on whether the MAG book itself says it's canon, to be honest. If it isn't canon, they can say whatever they want, but it isn't canon. Brandon has said many times that what is published in the Cosmere books is canon and that's it. Even things that he says aren't truly canon until they are published (see his current changing of how savantism works as an example). You can disagree and formulate theories based on MAG as much as you want, but it's just not solid evidence in my view.

By that argument, it's as solid as a Word of Branderson. :)  Ultimately, I take the view that he isn't deliberately lying to us when he tells Crafty what a metal does.  There are clues in there to be found.

Anyway, I think this is veering off-topic somewhat - and I don't currently have anything else to add to the Hemalurgy discussion.

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19 hours ago, Vecna said:

Ultimately, I take the view that he isn't deliberately lying to us when he tells Crafty what a metal does.

Oh, I agree with that, but I don't think we know how much of the stuff in the MAG that's not in the books came from Brandon vs. was just made up by Crafty for game purposes.

After Bands of Mourning we know, at the very least, that their explanations of Feruchemical duralumin and Nicrosil are wrong.


However, there might still be a separate spike for Feruchemical Hybrid powers. Feruchemy just doesn't fit the quadrant structure as cleanly as Allomancy does, both because of the two Physical quadrants and because of the weird thing with Warmth being Cognitive and Determination being Physical/Hybrid. (Yes, I know that started as a mistake, but it's confirmed to be canon now, and IIRC to have something to do with the weirdness of Feruchemical quadrants.)

If there is such a spike, it probably shouldn't be gold, because in the quadrants we know the pure metal steals a human attribute and the alloy steals an Allo/Feru power.

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1 hour ago, cometaryorbit said:

Feruchemy just doesn't fit the quadrant structure as cleanly as Allomancy does, both because of the two Physical quadrants and because of the weird thing with Warmth being Cognitive and Determination being Physical/Hybrid. (Yes, I know that started as a mistake, but it's confirmed to be canon now, and IIRC to have something to do with the weirdness of Feruchemical quadrants.)

I believe part of that's been stated to be an in character mistake now, and that the current groupings as we understand them are just Terris attempts to classify the metals as they understand them - not that they're right.

Quote

SATSUONI

How is heat a mental attribute in Feruchemy?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Because I messed up. I don't know if I've mentioned this before, but that power was supposed to be swapped with another one. (You might be able to guess which one.) However, by the time I realized my mistake, it had already been canonized in print in the trilogy, so I was stuck with it. I've been tempted to go back and correct the error, but it reaches pretty far back. People drawing upon warmth is mentioned in the first book. One thing to keep in mind, however, is that in general the 'physical, mental, etc' things are applied by people--they are boxes that people investigating the magic have used to describe it

[Source] Emphasis mine.

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9 hours ago, cometaryorbit said:

If there is such a spike, it probably shouldn't be gold, because in the quadrants we know the pure metal steals a human attribute and the alloy steals an Allo/Feru power.

I know this goes back to the MAG, but Inkthinker did say that they ran a lot(if not all) of the stuff past Brandon, and Marsh's page has him with Gold Spikes so they must do something useful.

Actually, the alloy doesn't always steal the Allo/Feru powers. Aluminum steals Enhancement Allomancy. It's on the Metallic Arts page, the Hemalurgy page, and on Aluminum's page, but technically lacks any source citation. While it lacks source notation, I checked the edit histories. It's been on the Metallic Arts page since March 27, 2011. The Hemalurgy page since September 12, 2010. And the earliest existing edit on the Aluminum page is from 2016, but it was there too.

Edited by The One Who Connects
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@The One Who Connects, the source is Khriss. HoA Ars Arcanum says aluminium steals enhancement Allomancy.

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4 hours ago, Oversleep said:

@The One Who Connects, the source is Khriss. HoA Ars Arcanum says aluminium steals enhancement Allomancy.

Figures I'd overlook Era 1 Ars Arcanum, but I assumed it would have a source to it on at least one of those pages.

Edit: it makes sense now that I think about it, since Marsh's MAG thing, via Inkthinker, mentioned him having an Aluminum spike a little before Harmony, which was in HoA.

Edited by The One Who Connects
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Aluminum - very good point. But that's weird - why would the pure metals steal human attributes for the first two quadrants, then switch?

Maybe the 4 known human attribute spikes are the only ones, and there's 4 spikes that steal something totally different?

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Ok so I hope I'm not bringing this up too long after the most recent comment, but I may have some insight to offer.

There are obviously those who would argue that only the books are canon, and others that argue that the MAG (unless specified otherwise) can also be considered canon. For the sake of it, I have extrapolated my own Hemalurgic charts based on both of these inferences (with colour coding!)

Both interpretations rely on the fact that the type of metal (External Pushing) that steals Allomantic abilities in the quadrant on the left, steals Feruchemical abilities in the quadrant on the right. This is an obvious pattern observed in the Basic metals, but one that has to be inferred for the Higher metals, since Aluminium (Internal Pulling) is confirmed to steal Allomantic Enhancement powers.

First - Assume that the MAG is canon unless contradicted:

Hemalurgy MAG.png

The MAG states that Duralumin steals Feruchemical Spiritual powers, It also states that Gold should steal Feruchemical Hybrid powers (I'll get to this in a second). Therefore Electrum should steal Allomantic Temporal Powers. Additionally - as seen in the basic metals - the other two metals in each quadrant are known to steal Human attributes associated with that quadrant, so I have filled those in for the sake of completion.

I'm not gonna lie to you, I don't like how this diagram looks. While the patterns are logically extrapolated from the available data, it really just does not look right. Therefore....

Second - Knowledge taken only from the books:

Hemalurgy Books.png

So this DEFINITELY requires a lot of extrapolation. This is because the only confirmed Hemalurgic ability for the higher metals is Aluminium, so we have to work it out from there. Again, assuming that the type of metal that steals Allomancy in the quadrant on the left (Aluminium - Internal Pulling), steals Feruchemical abilities in the right quadrant, that means that Gold should steal Feruchemical Physical powers. I say Physical powers because we know by WoB that 'Hybrid' is an in-universe term, and that there are actually two physical quadrants. Additionally, Pewter spikes are known to steal the Feruchemical ability to store Health (which lies in the second Physical Quadrant) and Strength (first Physical Quadrant).

My explanation for this is that Gold and Pewter are actually interchangeable Hemalurgically, and Gold was/is more expensive to use that Pewter. It may also be that given they have different metallic structures, they may also have different theftpoints and bindpoints, and so the knowledge of using Gold for Hemalurgy died with the Lord Ruler without actually being told to anyone (why use Gold when you could just use Pewter right?).

But I digress; the rest of the extrapolation comes logically from the fact that the three confirmed metals that Steal Allomantic abilities are all different types of metals for each quadrant. Steel is External Pushing, Bronze is Internal Pushing, and Aluminium is Internal Pulling. Therefore it stands to reason that the Metal that steals Allomantic Temporal abilities in the fourth quadrant would be External Pulling - Cadmium. Following that, using my own reasoning, Chromium should steal Feruchemical Spiritual abilities, and the other two metals from each quadrant steal associated Human traits.

This diagram looks much better and as a note is EXACTLY what @Nashan'Elin suggested at the start of this post. The main reason I made this post was to show both sides of the argument next to each other. My personal opinion is that (based on the patterns seen above) the MAG were using the currently known metals in order to produce a cool RPG, but that the actual diagram is the second one.

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