Nashan’Elin

The Complete Chart of Hemalurgy

34 posts in this topic

Using a combination of the Hemalurgy chart in the Hero of Ages Ars Arcanum and the Ars Arcanum from Bands of Mourning, I've complied a chart of what the remaining seven metals do as spikes.

NOTE: These are educated guesses, based off of patterns and similarities that I've seen

NOTE 2: Where it says "Steals Human ___", that means I don't know what it is, but it steals a human attribute like Senses, Strength, Mental Fortitude, etc.

HEMALURGIC POWER

Iron: Steals Human Strength

Steel: Steals Allomantic Physical Powers

Tin: Steals Human Senses

Pewter: Steals Feruchemical Physical Powers

Zinc: Steals Human Emotional Fortitude

Brass: Steals Feruchemical Mental Powers

Copper: Steals Human Mental Fortitude

Bronze: Steals Allomantic Mental Powers

Cadmium: Steals Allomantic Temporal Powers

Bendalloy: Steals Human ___

Gold: Steals Feruchemical Temporal Powers

Electrum: Steals Human ___

Chromium: Steals Feruchemical Enhancement Powers

Nicrosil: Steals Human ___

Aluminum: Steals Allomantic Enhancement Powers

Duralumin: Steals Human ___

The way I came up with these is that I figured out that the Physical Pushing metals steal Allomantic and Feruchemical powers, in the order of Allomatic, then Feruchemical. The Mental Pushing metals do the same, in the order of Feruchemical, then Allomatic. Going off of what Aluminum did, I guessed that the Temporal Pulling metals work in the order of Allomantic, and then Feruchemical, and finally, the Enhancement Pulling metals work in order of Feruchemical, and then Allomantic.

Or,

Physical: Pushing A-F

Mental: Pushing F-A

Temporal: Pulling A-F

Enhancement: Pulling F-A

The final thing: I have no idea what Human ___s would be, especially related to Temporal and Enhancement effects. Does anyone have any ideas?

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For the temporal effects, would memory fall under those?
As well as that, perception of time?

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Copper has stealing human memory capacity.  Also, aren't some Hemalurgic spikes supposed to work with other worlds' magics?  

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Copper has stealing human memory capacity. Also, aren't some Hemalurgic spikes supposed to work with other worlds' magics?

In the Ars Arcanum for HoA, Copper has stealing Human Mental Fortitude. I'll edit it though.

And my personal theory is that Hemalurgy is meant to work on other Shardworlds, but not using Scadrial's focus, metal. Metal, as the Scadrian focus, steals Scadrian magics such as Allomancy, Feruchemy, and the innate power of Preservation in people (the Human stuff). On other Shardworlds, I think the spikes would be made out of other focuses. Like my joke theory that Nalthian Hemalurgy uses dried paint :P

Edited by Nashan'Elin
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We literally have no idea how hemalurgy works off-world, let's not throw things around as fact here.

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We literally have no idea how hemalurgy works off-world, let's not throw things around as fact here.

I know, I did say "I think" before my speculation. You're right, though, I have no idea

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HEMALURGIC POWER

Iron: Steals Human Strength

Steel: Steals Allomantic Physical Powers

Tin: Steals Human Senses

Pewter: Steals Feruchemical Physical Powers

Zinc: Steals Human Emotional Fortitude

Brass: Steals Feruchemical Mental Powers

Copper: Steals Human Mental Fortitude

Bronze: Steals Allomantic Mental Powers

Cadmium: Steals Allomantic Temporal Powers

Bendalloy: Steals Human ___

Gold: Steals Feruchemical Temporal Powers

Electrum: Steals Human ___

Chromium: Steals Feruchemical Enhancement Powers

Nicrosil: Steals Human ___

Aluminum: Steals Allomantic Enhancement Powers

Duralumin: Steals Human ___

 

 

Hey, great topic!  I've been meaning to consider what's going on with the unexplored Hemalurgy, so I'm glad you brought it up. 

 

First of all, some nitpicking. It is the alloys, not the base metals that steal Metallic Arts from people (steel steals Allomancy, iron steals human strength), so those should be flipped in the later half.

 

Secondly, the temporal category (as it has been presented to us) seems to apply only to Allomancy, with cadmium, bendalloy, gold, and electrum being placed in the "hybrid" category of Feruchemical abilities (with the powers breath, energy, health, and determination, respectively).  Similarly, the Allomantic enhancement metals correspond to the Feruchemical spiritual powers (chromium-fortune, nicrosil-investiture, aluminum-identity, duralumin-connection).

(Source: coppermind feruchemy page)

 

Thus, electrum steals Feruchemical hybrid powers and bendalloy steals Feruchmical spiritual powers. 

 

Beyond just nitpicking, I think this can guide our thoughts on the effects of these metal's base metals gold and cadmium, which likely steal human attributes related to the Feruchemical powers gold and chromium steal, since tin steals human senses, copper steals mental fortitude, and so on. 

 

Once again, electrum has the capacity to steal the Feruchemical ability to fill/tap breath, energy, health, and determination.  Some ideas off the top of my head for what gold could steal: endurance, immunity, resilience (physical or emotional), or something along those lines. 

 

Bendalloy steals the spiritual powers: fortune, investiture, identity, and connection.  My ad hoc ideas: piety, faith, devotion, empathy (to me, these all sound related to connection).  Maybe also luck, self-esteem or otherwise. 

 

Sidenote: all the alloy spikes are essentially stealing Investiture, right?  Since Investiture on Scadrial manifests as the ability to use the Metallic Arts.  Forgive me if I am missing some of the nuance here (and educate me!)

 

Once again, great post and please let me know what you think of my thoughts! 

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 Sidenote: all the alloy spikes are essentially stealing Investiture, right?  Since Investiture on Scadrial manifests as the ability to use the Metallic Arts.  Forgive me if I am missing some of the nuance here (and educate me!)

 

Once again, great post and please let me know what you think of my thoughts! 

Effectively, yeah, they're stealing Investiture (as magic system).  Technically all of them are stealing Investiture (as substance) as that's what souls are made of, but that's another topic.

Edited by Master_Moridin
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What a fascinating idea.

I know, I did say "I think" before my speculation. You're right, though, I have no idea

No... you said "I think" before the second half of your speculation. The first half, that metal only works on Scadrial, is stated as though it's true.
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What a fascinating idea.No... you said "I think" before the second half of your speculation. The first half, that metal only works on Scadrial, is stated as though it's true.

Oh cool, I haven't seen that topic before. Thanks!

Fine, I'll go edit my post

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Duralumin steals fSpiritual powers according to the coppermind.

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Duralumin steals fSpiritual powers according to the coppermind.

Yeah but I think (and in the Oudeis post I said that) the Author made a Mistake trought the limitate knowledge about Hemalurgy (and Metallic Art) of that era.

 

Of course I have no proofs but it's something possible, thinking about the situation.

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Eh... possible, but in the meantime, I'm going to assume the ars arcanum was right without significant justification to think otherwise. "Just cuz I like my theory better" isn't really a reason to just assume the ars arcanum was wrong in this specific way. If there were a compelling reason to believe the theory regardless, I'd consider "the ars arcanum has been wrong before" to be a valid reason not to discount the new theory, just because it disagrees with the ars arcanum.

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Eh... possible, but in the meantime, I'm going to assume the ars arcanum was right without significant justification to think otherwise. "Just cuz I like my theory better" isn't really a reason to just assume the ars arcanum was wrong in this specific way. If there were a compelling reason to believe the theory regardless, I'd consider "the ars arcanum has been wrong before" to be a valid reason not to discount the new theory, just because it disagrees with the ars arcanum.

You have right, and therefore I didn't say "my interpretation must to be true"  :D

 

Anyway now that we returns on this argument...There is a "tiny clue" about the Ars Arcanum Error... In the W&W Era and after the discovery of all the 16 metals, we never had a Hemalurgy Chart and as we know the Ars Arcanums talk about the in-world knowledge of the Author in that timeframe. This may be interpretated as:

- "the Authors still didn't know how to fit it",

- "BS don't put there because He don't want to reveal what the Author discovered about Hemalurgy in the meantime.(Maybe this possible error)",

- "Just a meaningless coincidence"

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perhaps the alloys of physical & cognitive metals steal allomancy & feruchemy, but, if coppermind is correct, there is an element/alloy pairing that steals hybrid/temporal powers & spiritual powers.  my money is electrum stealing temporal allomancy to fit that pattern (aluminum to steal allomancy ehanchement powers, duralumin to steal spiritual feruchemy, gold to steal hybrid feruchemy).  That leaves Nicrosil, Chromium, Bendalloy, & Cadmium.

Other traits that would be stealable???  I'm thinking Temporal Duration (maybe Cadmium), Connection (perhaps from Chromium).  Nicrosil is so Investiture heavy, maybe it is needed to steal non-Scadrial Investiture?

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12 minutes ago, TheJackOfShit said:

isn't atium that steals temporal powas?

arcanum unbounded says so.

Atium steals everything may be stolen...The Ars Arcanum is written with in-world knowledge. Therefore may be wrong because the Shardworld's knowledge is incomplete/wrong.

Edited by Yata
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So, I am resorting to diagramatic form for this - because that was how I spotted what I think the pattern is.

Metalic Arts Chart v2.png

Now, there are a couple of rather large caveats that go along with this...

  1. The Hemaulrugic effects that start with a question mark are my guesses
  2. The listed effects for all metals are based mostly on the effect listed in the Mistborn Adventure Game (and I do need to update a couple of them I think now more details are known about)
  3. Due to #2 there is at least one incorrect entry on there - Hemalurgic Gold.  'Temporal' (I used the Allomancy words for some reason) Feruchemy has already been comfirmed by WoB to be able to be stolen by Pewter (which steals Physical Feruchemy) because the quadrant that the RPG calls 'Hybrid' is actually just another Phsyical quadrant.
  4. That makes the pattern a little looser in my mind, but I'm going with it for now until I see any more confirmed effects
  5. That does also open the question of what Hemalurgic Gold does if it isn't Hybrid Feruchemy...

~V

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5 hours ago, Vecna said:

So, I am resorting to diagramatic form for this - because that was how I spotted what I think the pattern is.

Metalic Arts Chart v2.png

Now, there are a couple of rather large caveats that go along with this...

  1. The Hemaulrugic effects that start with a question mark are my guesses
  2. The listed effects for all metals are based mostly on the effect listed in the Mistborn Adventure Game (and I do need to update a couple of them I think now more details are known about)
  3. Due to #2 there is at least one incorrect entry on there - Hemalurgic Gold.  'Temporal' (I used the Allomancy words for some reason) Feruchemy has already been comfirmed by WoB to be able to be stolen by Pewter (which steals Physical Feruchemy) because the quadrant that the RPG calls 'Hybrid' is actually just another Phsyical quadrant.
  4. That makes the pattern a little looser in my mind, but I'm going with it for now until I see any more confirmed effects
  5. That does also open the question of what Hemalurgic Gold does if it isn't Hybrid Feruchemy...

~V

Oh my God, thank you, these clarifies things so much~ I should be giving you a second upvote, if only because I have no idea how to make my Excel resemble this thing you've posted here. (PowerPoint is my forte :))

Anyway, my guesses for the remaining Hemalurgic uses of the metals include:

Raw investiture: Possibly one of the Enhancement/Spiritual metals. I don't mean the power itself, more like... spiritual fuel or something.

Intuition Youth: Possibly one of the Temporal/Hybrid metals. I mean, come on! If you're going to steal anything from somebody like their strength or their senses, wouldn't youth be also a viable possibility? Also, it's just the right amount of useless (useless in that TLR would not bother using it on his koloss or his other creations) and threatening (that even though it would be a more convenient substitute for tapping age via atium, TLR wouldn't have dared open up his body to Ruin's influence even for the sake of a few more years) that it would be left out of canon by Brandon.

Intuition: Oh, and yes, Intuition - because no Mr. Staccato post regarding metallic uses would be complete without me at least referring to this attribute as a viable example. Hehehehe. :D

Edited by Mr. Staccato
Italics, explanations, and sentence dropping-
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5 hours ago, Mr. Staccato said:

Oh my God, thank you, these clarifies things so much~ I should be giving you a second upvote, if only because I have no idea how to make my Excel resemble this thing you've posted here. (PowerPoint is my forte :))

Formerly licensed Excel wizard at your service.  ~bows~

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@Vecna I like the diagram a lot, good design. In general, the Mistborn Adventure Game isn't really canonical, so I don't think we can base theories off of it with much confidence. I agree that this way of dividing things up makes sense, but unfortunately we can't prove anything until more books come out or Brandon decides to be generous with his answers.

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18 minutes ago, BeskarKomrk said:

In general, the Mistborn Adventure Game isn't really canonical, so I don't think we can base theories off of it with much confidence.

It's a little more clearcut than that. The MAG was designed as an addition to the Canon, which means it basically exists as Canon until proven otherwise and/or we have reason to doubt it.
Anything that has been overwritten by WoB or the Books is no longer canon, but everything else is "still acceptable" until we have reason to believe it isn't accurate.

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10 minutes ago, The One Who Connects said:

It's a little more clearcut than that. The MAG was designed as an addition to the Canon, which means it basically exists as Canon until proven otherwise and/or we have reason to doubt it.
Anything that has been overwritten by WoB or the Books is no longer canon, but everything else is "still acceptable" until we have reason to believe it isn't accurate.

Ekhm:

Quote

Most of the things in the RPG books relating to the metals that you don't see in the books fall under the "We need to make a game out of this somehow, Brandon" clause. I've told them they can extrapolate if they want, but that I wouldn't consider their extrapolations cannon.

source

Let's stop with that "canon until proven otherwise". As of Bands Of Mourning it's nonsense to say that anymore.

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4 minutes ago, Oversleep said:

Let's stop with that "canon until proven otherwise". As of Bands Of Mourning it's nonsense to say that anymore.

I suppose that I'm reading too much into Peter's "Do you have reason to doubt it" response, then? Yata asked Peter about the canonocity of the MAG's Gold Feruchemy for your Feruchemy/Hemalurgy Question back in September. The first thing Peter said in the twitter screencap was "do you have reason to doubt it?" rather than a straight "the MAG's not canon" so I assumed that wording meant something.
For the second part, his response is a fair bit after the book since Bands Of Mourning was published in January of that year. So that also factors into why I thought the wording of his response was important.

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On 2/27/2017 at 4:08 PM, The One Who Connects said:

I suppose that I'm reading too much into Peter's "Do you have reason to doubt it" response, then? Yata asked Peter about the canonocity of the MAG's Gold Feruchemy for your Feruchemy/Hemalurgy Question back in September. The first thing Peter said in the twitter screencap was "do you have reason to doubt it?" rather than a straight "the MAG's not canon" so I assumed that wording meant something.
For the second part, his response is a fair bit after the book since Bands Of Mourning was published in January of that year. So that also factors into why I thought the wording of his response was important.

I may be alone, but my interpretation of everything that's been said about MAG (in the book itself and outside it) is that things that have appeared in the books before it are correct and things that haven't are close to, but not spoilers, for what's actually happening - so that there can be some sort of game published.  F:Aluminium turns out to be Spiritual Identity, not Personal.  F:Nicrosil is Investiture, and still weird!

Given that once The Lost Metal is out we won't get any more Metallic Arts info for years (and I don't see a huge amount extra becoming clear in TLM either), what we have in the MAG and can tease out of Branderson is literally all we have to speculate on the remaining effects.

 

I'll be over here, in my own little world. :)

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