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160405 - Hold the Bridge, Part 2 of 2 - Robinski - 4,182 words (L,S,V)


Robinski

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Hey everyone,

 

So it's Tuesday, so sue me!

 

Here is the second and final part of Hold the Bridge. Any comments that you can offer will be most helpful, and all very much appreciated. The usual stuff, details welcomed, but I'm kind of majoring this time on whether the story entertained you overall.

 

In the Word file I've sent, the first submission is in a background text colour, so please jump to the black text, but I’ve included the start of the scene between Harth and Magdi (which was the end of Part 1) for context. This week’s submission is 4,182 words – honest!

 

Thanks for reading!

 

:)

 

 

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I'm not gonna beat around the bush. This hit some really bad notes for me.

 

The thing with Magdi works alright in the end, but it needs to be clearer much sooner that they knew each other in life before. Until I got that, the whole thing was making my skin crawl.

 

I don't really understand what happened in the battle he woke up late for. How did the enemy get through the men left to hold the doors?

 

And the end. Please, don't make everything a dream. Please don't. It just kills it. I don't care about the characters in their lives outside the story. If those lives are worth caring about, tell me about them. Let me meet them in their real lives and care about them there. Right now, you've told me everything I invested in for the last 9,000 words was just a dream for Harth to learn the true meaning of Christmas, so it doesn't mean anything. All the questions about morality and the nature of god are moot, because it was all just in his head. I am really upset by that ending.

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Hrm. So battle scenes are hard for me to read or enjoy. A big exception is actually Sanderson's writing in the final Wheel of Time books - I really enjoyed those because they were so couched in character (and crazy to the point). Also, I spent most of the month of January playing Oblivion on my PC, and so a lot of the landscape is getting filled in with Elder Scrolls details. LOL. Anyway, those are all of my caveats so you have a sense of my perspective and therefore take it with a grain of salt.

 

Part I

 

My one big critique on grayed out section 1 is that while Harth seems to have a clear goal - departing. However, it'd be even better if there were some personal reason, done via flashback or otherwise, that makes him feel that his need is greater than others. Right now, he has very generic good versus evil motivation, and with those, he just seems like he's floating along and that "floating" kills a lot of the tension for the reader. I'd like to see him more desperate.

 

You already have some great elements in there that play in to this, most notably his not hanging back but leading his own troops.

 

I also wonder if you could raise the stakes by having death going all three ways - he could be reborn, he could depart - or he could go to hell. (Maybe if he loses too many battles or men, LOL) I'm not sure how that would work in the larger context of the world you're building here, but it would make the reader whisper "oh crap" and scoot to the edge of their seat more.

 

Part II

 

“You sent for me, oh high commander.” 

 

Heh. Oh boy. You just lost most of your female readers here. If Harth was a stupid man and she was about to gut him, I would eat this up, but it's cliche and offensive at the moment.

 

“I need to feel something, Harth, something familiar, please.” She pressed against him, reaching around to pull herself into him. “I know I'm just a cheap storm to you...”

 

Okay, what is her game? I am hoping she is about to stab him... AND IT'S A TEST.

 

But she doesn't. Oh, yeah, this is male fantasy. No former prostitute would ever say these things. She's had to subjugate herself to the most disgusting disease-riddled sex just to not starve to death - she doesn't want "comfort" from some soldier, even if he was the least offensive of her clients. 

 

Now, if they did have a deeper relationship - that should be apparent in other ways. She should be guarded with him, cautious. She should be like "Lie back, let's get this over with." And he should be like, "What? This isn't you." And she'll say something like "I got my stomach ripped out and I'm still cursed with this. You get to depart if you kill enough men - this is my way."

 

Typo:  “You don’t feel her loss? I thought you were close.” Dropped word.

 

Yeah, it follows the damsel in distress trope that Magdi would die. Not buying that he'd abandon his troops to go after her.

 

Okay, done.

 

You definitely need to work on their relationship. Honestly, it'd be great if instead of sleeping with her, he says, "Fine - be a solider." And then she dies heroically on the field, and maybe he knows for certain that she's gone to heaven or something and that ups the stakes again!

Edited by spieles
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Thanks for reading Eisenheim and Spieles. I'm too tired now to make cogent replies to your comments, but I do appreciate them, more tomorrow.

A couple of quick points. I had thought I made it clear in several places that Harth and Magdi knew each other in life, but clear not well enough. I'd be interested to know if any else got that.

Also, Magdi's opening line to Harth was supposed to be ironic, but I guess I fluffed that, however not my most heinous act this week, clearly.

More response to follow.

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Overall, I felt that this story started very strongly, and weakened as it went.

 

The "O High Commander" line came across as properly ironic to me, at least.

 

For someone who hasn't read your longer work in this universe, there is a bit of trouble in parsing this as a standalone story.  Is Gerwold a location in the actual physical world of this story?  Did he just wake up?  My first time through the last few paragraphs, I thought that he had woken up as the commander of the Horde side of the conflict.

 

In your longer work, do you explain why people fighting with medieval weaponry have modern military ranks?  'Majors' have only existed since 1640...

 

I'm having trouble parsing the Traveller and why he's important.  If the whole thing's just a dream, what aspect of Harth's psyche does he represent?  When Harth still thinks everything is real, why does he decide that the Traveller is the key to it all?

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Overall, I felt that this story started very strongly, and weakened as it went.

 

The "O High Commander" line came across as properly ironic to me, at least.

 

For someone who hasn't read your longer work in this universe, there is a bit of trouble in parsing this as a standalone story.  Is Gerwold a location in the actual physical world of this story?  Did he just wake up?  My first time through the last few paragraphs, I thought that he had woken up as the commander of the Horde side of the conflict.

 

In your longer work, do you explain why people fighting with medieval weaponry have modern military ranks?  'Majors' have only existed since 1640...

 

I'm having trouble parsing the Traveller and why he's important.  If the whole thing's just a dream, what aspect of Harth's psyche does he represent?  When Harth still thinks everything is real, why does he decide that the Traveller is the key to it all?

 

Thanks for reading - much appreciated. All good questions.

 

"O High Commander..." - I'm relieved that someone other than me got that. I thought the use of the word 'high' was sufficiently ironic, but I forgot the reader doesn't really know the set up. I should have italicised it, but still, I don't bring home the irony in her actions thereafter. Mistake on my part, automatically assuming the reader will see things the way they are intended.

 

Harth waking up - Gerwold is in the real world, he did just wake up. I can flag the setting better when he wakes up, and the waking itself. This does not get over my crime of having all the action being a dream (see Eisenheim, above - and my reply, below). However, I have thought of how to take the story further to try and resolve some of the criticism. There are reasons I stopped here, but they sound too much like excuses, so I'm not going there.

 

Weaponry vs Ranks - This is something I tend to gloss over in my writing, for good or ill. It's a fantasy, set in a fictional world that may not have developed in the same way as Earth. I appreciate that these things come from Earth history, and so might jar with some people who know about this stuff. I want to use familiar terms because I don't want the reader being distracted by trying to figure what High Chief, Sub-chief, Ground Chief or whatever actually mean. Not really and good answer, and I will probably edit that stuff if I get any further with the story - to be honest it clearly has bigger flaws.

 

The Traveller - Fair point, he isn't well enough define. He is there as a cypher, but it's not sufficiently clear what he represents, even in my own mind. Great questions and give me lots to think about. Much appreciated.

Edited by Robinski
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I'm not gonna beat around the bush. This hit some really bad notes for me.

 

The thing with Magdi works alright in the end, but it needs to be clearer much sooner that they knew each other in life before. Until I got that, the whole thing was making my skin crawl.

 

I don't really understand what happened in the battle he woke up late for. How did the enemy get through the men left to hold the doors?

 

And the end. Please, don't make everything a dream. Please don't. It just kills it. I don't care about the characters in their lives outside the story. If those lives are worth caring about, tell me about them. Let me meet them in their real lives and care about them there. Right now, you've told me everything I invested in for the last 9,000 words was just a dream for Harth to learn the true meaning of Christmas, so it doesn't mean anything. All the questions about morality and the nature of god are moot, because it was all just in his head. I am really upset by that ending.

 

Thank you, Eisenheim, for challenging these issues so strongly. After my initial defensiveness (internally), it forces my to confront them.

 

Magdi - I'm taking the positive that it worked on some level, and I know I can get much closer to my original intention with some fairly easy fixes, like hanging a bigger lantern on their previous association. Nobody likes crawling skin, I can tackle that issue. More in my response to Spieles.

 

Enemy at the gates - Clearly, I need to frame this better but, due to Harth's mistake (which he doesn't really confront), the enemy flanks them with enough troops to engage Dumkald's hundred soldiers at the gates. The outnumber the gate guard push them back enough to get at one of the gates, which is all they need. I can describe the mechanics of that better.

 

It's all a dream - I know this is a hackneyed trope but, despite having been writing for over 30 years, I am not not advanced in the process of plotting, finishing and submitting. I have never submitted a story for publication and only recently (2 or 3 years) been seriously pursuing writing. I have never written a dream story, so it was an experiment for me. It turned you off, fair enough. It's a first draft, I can make the story better. This will almost certainly not get over your overriding problem, but I have to try to learn from it. My I'm the writer who can reinvent the dream story. Rofl, I'm not, but I have to try.

 

If you'll bear with me, I'm going to ask some questions that maybe everyone else knows the answer to, but just consider me a dumb Jock (original Scottish variety) for the purposes of this exercise. And I'm not trying to changing your mind, of course, I'm just asking questions.

 

1 - Why should Harth's character be any different in the real world than in the dream? Robert Jordan and Sanderson latterly spent chapters in the dream world of Tel'aran'rhiod (the World of Dreams) and also the Wolf Dream. Okay, waaaay better realised than my puny effort, but it seems to me the only difference at a fundamental level is that in those fine examples, the reader knew they were in a dream. Still, it was the same characters to all intents and purposes acting largely in the same way. To me, it's not a character issue. I'm trying to tell you about Harth's life through the story.

 

2 - Why doesn't it mean anything if he learns something fundamental about life from it? I certainly draw from my dreams (which are much less 'interesting' than Harth's).

 

3 - I don't see why the questions are invalid because they are in his head. They are still questions - where they manifest, surely, is irrelevant.

 

4 - I know this dream 'drop' at the end is bad form, but I find it interesting that you didn't react badly to the story being set in the afterlife which, arguably, is no more real than a dream. Almost all our worlds are imagined, why is a world imagined by a character in a story any less valid? I think it all come down to the reader's trust and, arguably, not respecting it by using this trope.

 

Well, that helped me! Thanks again for the work-out.

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(Note: for some reason my apostrophe key isnt working this morning, so in this post Ill seem like an idiot who doesnt know how to use apostrophes )

 

I think part of the reason for the negative reaction to the dream-reveal is genre shock.  Readers thought they were reading a story about trying to act rightly in a world in which a mysterious god sets difficult and morally ambiguous tasks for unknown reasons, and no one knows if they are punished or rewarded in the end.  That is an attention-grabbing subject in an attention-grabbing setting.  And then, we learn that we were actually reading a love story, and none of the questions we were committed to matter.

 

The love story aspect needs to be strengthened if you want the reader to be more committed to it than to the other aspects of the story.  The prostitute-falling-in-love is an old story, and Im sure it actually happens  from time to time in human history.  And the trope itself is not anti-feminist: it was used by Shen Fu, one of the earliest proponents of womens rights in modern China.  But yeah, sex has got to be a pretty complicated issue for a prostitute.  For the first few nights, just have them sleep in each others arms with no hanky panky: a full nights sleep in the arms of someone who cares about you would probably be pretty special for a prostitute.  Have her cry, and have him console her.  Have him cry, and have her console him.  Let them spend more time laughing at each others jokes.  Consider having him invite her to his room rather than commanding her presence.  If its important for him to order her to his room in order to show how much war has messed him up, then lampshade that.

 

 

Have a scene where Harth becomes frustrated and fed up with all the ethical and metaphysical questions posed by his setting.  That way, the reader will be releived when the setting turns out not to actually exist.  They will conclude:

”Ah, the only question that really matters is ”How Should I Love”.  Deep.”

 

Alternatively, actually resolve some of those questions.  let us know for sure what happens when someone disappears.  Let us learn why someone winds up on one side or the other of the conflct.  Let us know why God set it all up this way.  That way, Harth actually learns lessons about them, instead of just engaging with them, and then disengaging from them without arriving at conclusions.

 

As it is, it feels like the setting still has a lot of story to tell, and the reader is frustrated that that story is cut short just because what seemed like a lovestory sub-plot had reached its conclusion.

Edited by ecohansen
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Interesting, very interesting. The genre shock aspect is a good point, and I can make adjustments to that. The prostitute angle was not intended to be a major factor, and Magdi seems to have been pigeon-holed in that respect. I appreciate there is next to no ground work in relation to this, but I imagined a camp follower, possibly the wife of a soldier who was killed as has nothing to fall back on, someone surviving as she can an needs to from time to time, rather than a 'career' courtesan.

 

Be that as it may, the big question need more work, or some kind of resolution. I can't answer them any better than anyone else (i.e. meaning of life, good vs. evil, etc.). Where I feel the story lacks most here is with the Traveller who tends to act as a focus for there questions. Thanks again - I need to really take a look at this story. I'll probably set it aside for a bit before revisiting.

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So yeah, the problem with the dream revelation is that it means you break most of the promises you make at the beginning.

 

The opening of the story seems to promise a conclusion that is about the nature of death, afterlife, the divine, good and evil, etc. or at least points to those questions. Those are big questions, and we spend time in a world that highlights them. waking up and realizing it was all his dream denies us any answers there. I haven't read wheel of time, but there's an immediate difference between a dream world that multiple people can access or that originates outside the dreamer and one that is just a regular dream. Dalinar's visions in Stormlight Archive are meaningful because they're not just the product of his imagination. They can answer questions about the universe outside his head.

 

I feel like the best chance to fix it, for me at least, is to spend less time on facts and more on emotions. Immerse me much deeper in Harth's reactions and feelings, and maybe I'll care about his personal growth. As matter of fact as things are now, I care a lot more about the questions than the characters. 

 

Also, consider foreshadowing the end. Have Harth return to nonsensical nature of this afterlife, question why the creator would need a setup like this. After initial confusion, he accepts it seemingly at face value, and that makes me as a reader do the same, because he's my window and he knows more about the world than I do.

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Yeah, I'm glad to hear that Magdi's line was meant to be ironic (though I do think you could make it clearer with some emotional descriptors), and I think Echohanson makes a good point about the prostitution trope. It's a really loaded issue, so if you're going to go there, it needs to be with purpose and focus - not as an aside. Like, in Game of Thrones, I really enjoyed Tyrion's relationship with Shae because there's so much going on there, and Shae is pretty much as flawed and crazy as Tyrion is. 

 

But yeah, I'm going to agree with Eisenheim on focusing's on Harth's reactions and feelings. I mentioned above that I'd like to see more desperation, but more than that, I think to really drive up the conflict and tension - you've got so much plot to work with - but it's the character side of things that needs more ramping up.

 

Hope that helps. :)

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Notes above and comments below.  I think everyone else caught the same things I did.

 

pg 23: "and taught legs."

--taut

 

pg 23: "It seemed narrower in the low light. "

--narrower than the last time they were out on it in the dark?

 

pg 23: "Some fell under the blows and lay still, others stood up after wounds that would have slain them in the mortal realm, and then fled"

--still don't understand this.  So some "die" and some get back up?  Is this the method of being found worthy or not?  They just don't get back up?

 

pg 24: "My favourite before Cresca lasted three sorties. I saw her go over the edge"

--Eh?  Edge of what?  The bridge?  So if they fall of they're fully dead?

 

pg 25: "dusky-skinned" and "dusk" very close together

 

pg 27: "He cast about but there was not commander."

--no commander

 

pg 28: "felling them in dozens as they fought back to their gates."

--so do these just get back up and block the way again, or do they stay down and "dead?"

 

pg 28: "What remained of Harth’s hundred laid whittled away at what was left of the horde."

--laid? extra word?

 

pg 31: "But she could not, and her eyes closed."

--so I think this, finally, is my answer?  When they move on, they act as if they are really dead.

 

 

pg 32: "something about possums, and throwing them off the bridge"

--eh?

 

pg 32: "No-one he had spoken to was quite sure whether if those who fell returned or not. Some came back to face the next dusk without a clear recollection of how they had fallen on the field."

--this would be useful earlier

 

pg 34: "you cannot choose heaven, only the other place.”

--this seems like new information.

 

The end:

--Not what I expected at all.  I was very confused for a moment, then finally figured he was alive again.  I guess he went back in time some?  Seems almost like a cop-out to me.  He avoided the decision he had to make by being placed on the bridge.  

And what happened to the Traveller?

 

Honestly, I was entertained right up until then end, and then sort of felt cheated out of my promised ending.

 

responding to other comments:

--I didn't have a problem with "O high commander."

--I thought it was well communicated that Magdi and Harth knew each other.  However, that she secretly loved him, I was a little surprised at.

--Enemy and the gates: I got that a few sneaked in through the broken door.

--The Traveller is built up to a point where he needs to feature heavily in the resolution, though whether as a guide, an antagonist, or just as confused as Harth, I don't know.

--It Was All A Dream:  Nope.  Don't buy it.  See above comments.  This robs the story of its potential.  I think the others made the points that needed to be made on this.  It breaks all your promises and comes as a shock.  I'd rather see everything tied up in the afterlife (which I was invested in after 9000 words) and have Harth make the hard choice/guess where Magdi went and either follow her or choose the opposite, depending on who's going where.  This also invalidates the question I had all along of how passing on works in this purgatory.  I'd rather see a solid answer.

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Good story, ending was a little off. Comments bellow.

 

Madgi- i understood they knew each other from before, but more as acquaintances/business relationship. The love aspect felt rushed to me.

 

Battle: I think you need to block a little more. I was not sure who was flanking who. (that line could use a dialogue tag..i know your against them). Secondly this is a bridge...how could they pull of a flanking manoeuvre it would be far to narrow even on something like a freeway.

Finally coming to the last point which is the real question, why are they even on the bridge. Typically walls make defence about a million times easier, a smart commander would not wait on the bridge but behind the walls and rain down death.  

 

Decimate. Personal i try to avid this word unless you mean kill one in ten,  which renders the part after the comma redundant.

 

on page 28 second paragraph, don't use attackers. Harth is attacking as well, so its not clear who you refer to.

 

Tactic of weak in the back: I disagree with Harth. This makes sense. I think the Roman did it. If you spread your weak like Harth did then you weaken you entire army especially in formation fighting. If you keep them in the back then they can learn, and when they are sufficiently trained then you put them in units. 

 

Dammed light- Nit sure why Harth is cursing the light. his men Should have woken their commander. Plus he made the call to attack but not because of the light, or did he miss seeing something (that i missed when reading). 

 

The End. As for the end, agree with Mandameon in that it didn't come across as a dream to me. I thought it was a second chance at life to do things right (like in touched by an angel). This didn't bother me and it normally does. What bothered me more was Harth giving up and walking across the bridge to commit suicide, it just felt out of place to me in a story about holding the bridge. 

 

the Traveller: as an aside i thought he was the creator in disguise until the end (well him or Fermarald). 

 

Page 27- Harth driving into their ranks, slowing , laid about him with his axe.

This is odd wording

 

To the "major" comments: I really like military aspects in stories and the fact that major is a modern rank doesn't bother me especially in a short. Also i thought this world was around 1500-1700 based on the armour and weapons alone. I will say that to me Military ranks in fantasy are a trap unless you do your own. But then you have the why not call an apple an apple issue. So Trap. 

    

Overall a enjoyable read reguardless of the problems. Look forward to reading more in this world in the future.

Edited by Kammererite
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On the whole I liked part one more than I did part two. I also thought the action in part two could be made a bit clearer. And I’m not really a fan of the ending since on principle I don’t like dream-endings. Up to that point though I did enjoy reading the story. I was really looking forward to learning the rules of this after-life you presented, such as the meaning behind the bridge and the towers, but in the end none of it matters.

 

Magdi: I wasn’t as bothered by the prostitute-falls-in-love-with-soldier plotline as some of the others were. In hindsight, knowing that this is all a dream, it also makes a kind of sense. Harth has a thing for her in real life so of course in his dream she also has a thing for him. In real life she probably doesn’t.

 

Meaning of the bridge  and fortresses: Obviously not a representation of good versus evil, or heaven and hell, maybe the conscious mind (white tower) versus the subconscious mind (black tower)? Is that the meaning of everything? Was there actually a meaning behind holding the bridge and the black and white towers? You never really explain that.

 

Xikuon: I was actually expecting a mirror-version of Harth to step out of the black fortress.  The name Xikuon that the Traveller drops means nothing to me.

 

Dream: I was confused when Harth just woke up. I had to reread the ending two times before it dawned on me that the whole story was a dream. It did disappoint me, since I wasn’t expecting that at all. I was expecting something that dealt with the afterlife rather than it all having been a dream.

 

Thinking back on the story there are hints there it is all a dream. Dream-Harth sleeps when it is day, the dream of holding the bridge doesn’t actually start until dusk when he goes to sleep in real life. Just hypothesizing here, but the time that he ‘woke up’ late was probably because in real life he went to sleep late. That’s pretty cool.

 

It still makes me feel though that none of the actions that he did, or the people he lost in the dream, mattered. Even though he did learn things he could take with him in real life, the impact of the story feels lessened to me because no one in the dream was actually lost.

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Finally getting a chance to read this! Woohoo!

 

As I go impressions:

- I always read 'Dumkald' as 'Dumkopf'. I don't know why.

 

- Yup, I catch on the 'oh high commander' too. I sense a glimmer of her maybe using it ironically, but it is so jarring that I am thrown from the narrative. Following it with the word 'demure' doesn't help. If you followed it with something like "her posture was submissive, but her eyes spoke in a much stronger language' type of thing, I could see more fire in her, and that would help the words.

 

- She starts to unbutton her shirt, and Harth knows its not the time. Awesome. It isn't the time. So he needs to say something or do something to that effect. Mitigating words to help the situation could be things like:

"Magdi, no. You know I would never expect that from you."

"Magdi, I appreciate your offer, but I need your mind, not your body."

"Thank you, Magdi. Could we talk, first? As equals?"

 

- She made no move to refasten buttons.... this to me screams damaged woman. Harth should be averting eyes. He needs to respect her damage, not play into it.

 

- She looked lost, and she needed to feel something. Danger, danger Harth Robinson! These are not signs to sleep with a woman. Do not take advantage. Ask to hold her hand. Suggest talking. 

 

- Placing a finger on her lips to silence her: In terms of responses to damaged women, taking away her agency further is the opposite way to go. No silencing. If she needs to talk, let her talk. 

 

- Laying together in embrace - so did they or did they not have sex? If not, that probably should be spelled out better, because it gives me more respect for Harth.

 

- 'To make an honest woman of you?' What year is this taking place in? If this is a modern work, this statement is derogatory. If this is 1950s or previous, it works, but it is grating nonetheless.

 

- 'Or an eternity'. Not advisable to agree with women's depreciating comments. She degraded herself. He needs to uplift, not continue the degradation.

 

- "And it did, his third time." What is this referring to? Third time of what?

 

- When Harth and Fermarald chat about the women moving on and dalliances, they're talking about them like they aren't really people. That language could use some cleaning.

 

- I'm still unsure about using parentheses in fiction writing. You pull attention to the narrator and away from characters and action

 

- He stays his hand when faced with a crone or stripling girl, then thinks of Magdi. Does he only see females in these types of roles. In a twist, could he think of a competent female commander, then strike down the girls and crones, knowing they are just as capable of killing as a man?

 

- Why did the horde flee? I don't understand what happened.

 

- When Magdi 'dies' I'm left with even more questions about why people are chosen to go. Unsure if I should have an inkling of that by now or not.

 

- Page 33, Magdi needed him? Did she? Seems more like he needed her, and she needed a therapist.

 

- The Traveller hangs out with the horde? Is that right? I'm confused.

 

- His waking up falls flat. If the dream was supposed to be about him realizing his love for Magdi, then I suggest you spend more time developing their relationship, examining his feelings, and less on horde battles. I don't necessarily mind the dream ending, as you can certainly learn a lot about yourself in dreams, but to have the impact I think you are going for, the reader needs to invest more deeply in the characters, especially Harth and Magdi.

 

 

Post Reading Comments

Was I entertained? The first half did entertain me, although I found some places confusing. The second part I did not enjoy as much, although the storyline was still engaging enough for me to want to read to the end.

 

I think the bones of this story are good, but the execution, especially of Magdi, needs work. If there's anything you'd like to discuss more about, I'd be happy to. Polishing and editing are rough work, but worth it to see the manuscript all shiney!

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Thanks for reading, guys. I really appreciate how many people took the time. I'm seeing the ending transforming in my mind. It's still taking shape, but I think I need to press on in the coming days and implement a fix while it's all still fresh.

 

Mandamon: Excellent comments thank you. Mechanics issues noted. I'm so pleased that 'High Commander' and their prior relationship came through for you, but enough people (I think? I'm losing track), didn't get it that I'll flag a little better. The love thing, yes, and the resolution, definitely. The Traveller is not dealt with satisfactorily, absolutely. I'm thinking I stopped 1k/2k words too soon, and the 'awakening' isn't right. Thanks, man - really helpful comments :)

 

Kammererite: Thank you for reading. Super comments about the tactics. I'll think about that. As for defending the wall vs. fighting on the bridge, I'll need to mull on that. I feel a cop out coming on about not having the equipment (oil, boulders, etc.) to rain death on the attackers. I will tidy up the blocking in the last attack, I agree that's a problem. As for the end, it's a 'suicidal' move, but I don't think he sees it that way. As someone said, I need to get into his head more, certainly at the end. Excellent point about the ranks - that's kind of how of feel. I appreciate that some people might get hung up on it, but it's not Agincourt (or some later battle to fit your time frame), so I'm going to stick with the ranks and hope most readers read past them.

 

You may be reading more sooner than you think - if I write a new end I'll see if I have the nerve to post it up, maybe following Monday :)

 

Asmodemon: Final battle will get an overhaul for sure, thanks for cementing this in my mind, and the end is going in the bucket (i.e. bin/waste/refuse) - but not entirely, a major reconfiguration. I'm happy with your reaction about Magdi, but need to edit her through-line to get a more consistent reaction to her role. I have totally dodged the meaning of it all, that will take some pondering on my part as to how to deal with it, or whether to distract the reader with a much, much, much better ending. Xikuon isn't supposed to mean anything but, by the same token, leaving him as such a blank slate probably is a mistake. I will review. Ending: yes, the more I read all these great comments, the more I see a more effective resolution - whether it's any good remains to be seen, but I have a vision of it. Thanks so much :)

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Kaisa, really appreciate your comments, super-helpful. My thoughts below.

 

- I always read 'Dumkald' as 'Dumkopf'. - ROFL, it's easier for me, I suppose, to hear it as a Gaelic-inflected name.

 

- Yup, I catch on the 'oh high commander' too. I sense a glimmer of her maybe using it ironically, but it is so jarring that I am thrown from the narrative. Following it with the word 'demure' doesn't help.- Yes, I can see that.

 

- She starts to unbutton her shirt, and Harth knows its not the time. Awesome. It isn't the time. So he needs to say something or do something to that effect. Mitigating words to help the situation...- Eminently sensible suggestion.

 

- He needs to respect her damage, not play into it. - Ok.

 

- Placing a finger on her lips to silence her: In terms of responses to damaged women, taking away her agency further is the opposite way to go. - Good point.

 

- Laying together in embrace - so did they or did they not have sex? - They didn't, I'll flag that better.

 

- 'To make an honest woman of you?' What year is this taking place in? If this is a modern work, this statement is derogatory. If this is 1950s or previous, it works, but it is grating nonetheless. - Ok. It's supposed to be ironic, but I see it wouldn't work in the societal timeframe.

 

- 'Or an eternity'. Not advisable to agree with women's depreciating comments. She degraded herself. He needs to uplift, not continue the degradation. - Ok. He's actually referring to the potential that they (he) could spend an eternity here (i.e. long time dead), but that doesn't really come across, and it's part of the whole 'honest woman' section, so it probably falls away / is revised anyway.

 

- "And it did, his third time." What is this referring to? Third time of what? - His third dusk in the afterlife.

 

- When Harth and Fermarald chat about the women moving on and dalliances, they're talking about them like they aren't really people. That language could use some cleaning. - Ok. Fermarald may well, he's not intended to be sympathetic, but I will review.

 

- I'm still unsure about using parentheses in fiction writing. You pull attention to the narrator and away from characters and action - Yeah, I had those brackets in and about about three times. I'll review.

 

- He stays his hand when faced with a crone or stripling girl, then thinks of Magdi. Does he only see females in these types of roles. In a twist, could he think of a competent female commander, then strike down the girls and crones, knowing they are just as capable of killing as a man? - That would probably be closer to his character in the past. Not sure he would think about the female commander, but good point about the woman combatants.

 

- Why did the horde flee? I don't understand what happened. - Ok, will review.

 

- When Magdi 'dies' I'm left with even more questions about why people are chosen to go. Unsure if I should have an inkling of that by now or not. - Noted.

 

- Page 33, Magdi needed him? Did she? Seems more like he needed her, and she needed a therapist. - Good point. I'll adjust that.

 

- The Traveller hangs out with the horde? Is that right? I'm confused. - Pretty much from the point Harth steps onto the bridge at the end this will be getting a fairly significant reshuffle.

 

- His waking up falls flat. If the dream was supposed to be about him realizing his love for Magdi, then I suggest you spend more time developing their relationship, examining his feelings, and less on horde battles. I don't necessarily mind the dream ending, as you can certainly learn a lot about yourself in dreams, but to have the impact I think you are going for, the reader needs to invest more deeply in the characters, especially Harth and Magdi. - Agreed. I'll get that in the edit. The ending is also in for revision / expansion, per my responses above. Glad the dream ending didn't completely abhor you, but it's getting a revision / expansion.

 

Post Reading Comments

Was I entertained? The first half did entertain me, although I found some places confusing. The second part I did not enjoy as much, although the storyline was still engaging enough for me to want to read to the end.

 

I think the bones of this story are good, but the execution, especially of Magdi, needs work. If there's anything you'd like to discuss more about, I'd be happy to. Polishing and editing are rough work, but worth it to see the manuscript all shiney! - Thank you so much. I am going to take you up on that offer. Over the next week or so, I'm going to revise the ending and - with y'all's forbearance - maybe post the second half of the (augmented) story up again.

Edited by Robinski
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...

 

Okay, thank you again, Spieles, for your critique. I must admit it rattled me at first, and quite rightly so. It’s not that I was complacent, I'm always kind of nervous and keyed up when I submit, and always know I’ve got something wrong, but I think it’s the strongest reaction I’ve had to a submission on here in the near 3 years I’ve been participating. And it gives such an important perspective on the character of Magdi.

 

I will, of course, tackle all your observations.

 

Part I

 

 - Battle Scenes: Yeah, I agree that BS’s work on Wheel of Time is excellent. There is sooo much set-up that feeds into that final battle, so he’s got plenty to work with, but to succeed in wrangling all of that into writing the battle that he did is a great achievement, I think. I will attempt to add some interest to my short battles in HtB, but the last thing I want to do is extend them. Good challenge then.

 

 - Harth’s motivation: I agree that this is weak, and something I need to punch-up. Others have flagged this to some degree, so it’s one of my major issues for Edit #1. Your comment about raising the stakes is interesting. I agree that I need a bit more set-up to the battle. If not the first one, then certainly the second one, to give the reader something more to go on in order to understand, or at least relate, to the stakes.

 

So far, so good – LOL!

 

Part II

 

 - “Oh, Commander, my commander”: Okay, we’ve been through this, and a decent proportion of people seem to get the irony, but I need to get that nearer to 100%, so I will tweak the context and bit, reference to Magdi’s demeanour especially, and addressing the word ‘demure’ that follows.

 

 - Magdi’s behaviour: So, clarifying her irony in making the first statement will not excuse how badly I ‘stormed up’ this scene. (See what I did there? Take that, evil suppressors of freedom of potty-mouthed expression!) My aim with the scene was to confirm that Magdi and Harth knew each other (after implying it on the parade ground), to show that they were intimate (regardless of the basis of the intimacy), and to get them into bed on a comforting and supportive level (no hanky-panky).

 

Clearly, I failed in that for a significant proportion of the readership, and I think you struck on the key factor in your entirely justified rebuttal when you said “No former prostitute would ever say these things.” I think it’s Magdi’s dialogue that is formulaic claptrap. Description needs to be better too, no doubt, but I think her dialogue condemns this scene to engendering the wrong reaction.

 

Thank you for those suggestions, btw, which will help me to explore different approaches to the scene.

 

 - Magdi ‘dying’: On this point, yes, it’s certainly portrayed as if she dies, and I think I failed adequately to deal with the fact (setting aside the ending of the story) that she is not dying, but moving on, progressing to the next state of being (or not). I feel that if I handle that better, I can build up the positivity of her gaining the next level (so to speak).

 

Interesting suggestion on Magdi’s timeline, it doesn’t exactly fit what I had in mind for her character (when I get it right!), but it’s nice to bounce suggestions around.

 

Finally, and I know this will sound defensive but, I really don’t want you (or anyone else) to think I'm some kind of misogynist hack (I'm a whole other kind of hack). In my last novel, Waifs and Strays, two out of four POVs are female characters, and I reckon the females were the most proactive, whereas the males tended to be reactive. (And Mandamon, before you cast Ahma up to me, I'm counting Rhemis as co-opting Ahma’s agency until later in the story, so :op )

 

Anyway, thank you again, Spieles – I do appreciate the challenges you have set me for editing this story. I'm hoping to revise the ending / Part 2 and resubmit in a couple of weeks in that hope that you guys might have another bash at it.

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Spieles and I came over from AbsoluteWrite, so are used to a much more 'just give it to me straight, doc' sort of approach to beta reading. You should see what we do to each other's manuscripts!

 

Robinski I think you handled all the feedback with grace and introspection. I'm really looking forward to seeing the edited version! I really want to connect with Magdi, so am excited to see how her character evolves.

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Hey, it's cool. I'm a 'big' (read old) boy, and can take the slings and arrows. I was probably just lulled into a false sense of comfort as everyone around here is so polite... as well as being wise.

 

Also, I feel like I'm often the one getting worked up about stuff, so it's nice to have different perspectives and styles of opinion to add to the mix. Bring it on :)

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- I like the ambiance the main character feels when he "loses" someone. It's an interesting idea since it really does mean they are literally in a better place.

 

- The parenthesis after "We've done this before, we've never lost" feels a bit awkward.

 

 - Magdi's crossing hits hard, but feels like it needs more reaction from Harth.

 

- "If you think I'll balk you ARE mistaken." 

 

- I did not see that ending coming, but it definitely works, and definitely says what it needs to. 

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