Shardplate against bullets?

[Oversleep]

We've seen how this kill would occur! The outcome is pretty obvious to me. Shardbearers are so overrated, and Atium is so very, very, very much OP that it sin't even funny.

Fixed.

Anyway, probably all discussion "Mistborn vs. anybody" boils down to the question "does Mistborn have atium?". If yes, then it's a win for Mistborn. To have a proper discussion we always need to exclude atium (unless we get somebody who have specific abilities which can counter it - Fortuity for example).

[Rich2244]

You have to assume that any mistborn has maybe a minute of atium to burn, it is far too valuable and scarce to allow more than that. Also Atium only allows you to escape if there is a possibility you could, if there is no way to escape death, which when fighting a shardbearer especially a radiant is a distinct possibility then you are still dead.

Also Brendon has said Roshar is his baby more so than any series he has done so far, simply taking that into account he would make Rosharians the most latently powerful, it's human nature to make your favourite more OP.

Furthermore WoB have stated that shardplate gives substantially more benefit then flaring pewter, couple this with a shardblade being more dangerous then any weapon I know a mistborn to possess and its defensive benefits we have a very clear winner, Atium would probably allow many mistborn to survive for a minute or so but win, I doubt it.

[IndigoAjah]

They wouldn't need to survive a minute: they'd need to survive long enough to dodge one swipe of a slower than normal sword that they can see coming and stab once into a gap that they know the position of in the near future. 3 seconds. Max. That's with added extra speed, strength and reflexes. It's so one sided it's a joke.

Roshar being his baby doesn't mean that the Rosharians are more latently powerful- there is no logic in that statement. Even if it did, and I accept they might be (Stormlight is impressive, look at how easily Szeth and Kaladin make multiple Shardbearers look like absolute mugs- like, mook level in Szeth's case and I imagine Kaladin with his new powers and no need to hold back would be equally one sided), that doesn't make the non-latent, non-Surgebinding Shardbearers any more capable. They demonstrably suck against enhanced fighters!

(Making your favourite more powerful may be human nature, but it's hardly good writing, and Sanderson is a good writer. It's basically part 1 of Sueism)

In essence- I think bullets beat Shardplate, but it's interesting to discuss. I am 100% sure than any half competent Atium user, especially if they had other metals too, who can get within 10m of a Shardbearer and has 3 seconds of Atium would kill him with utter contemptuous ease. As it happens, so would any half-competent Radiant who wanted to. The only people that people with Atium have to worry about surviving against for a whole minute realistically are people with really powerful magic that can't be dodged or people with Atium themselves

[Airplane Maniac]

Just random thinking here, what about a shardbearer(both blade and plate) v.s. a Tank.

[Arrae]

Fixed.

Anyway, probably all discussion "Mistborn vs. anybody" boils down to the question "does Mistborn have atium?". If yes, then it's a win for Mistborn. To have a proper discussion we always need to exclude atium (unless we get somebody who have specific abilities which can counter it - Fortuity for example).

Off topic, but burning electrum would counter the futer-seeing part of atium.

 

Sorry not sure how to cancel a post

There's an option called "hide" at the right left of your posts.

[natc]

Well, the electrum only affects one person (the allomancer himself), so atium shadows presumably function properly for everything in the world other than the guy burning atium. So it's not a complete loss of advantage . . .

[Rich2244]

They wouldn't need to survive a minute: they'd need to survive long enough to dodge one swipe of a slower than normal sword that they can see coming and stab once into a gap that they know the position of in the near future. 3 seconds. Max. That's with added extra speed, strength and reflexes. It's so one sided it's a joke.

Roshar being his baby doesn't mean that the Rosharians are more latently powerful- there is no logic in that statement. Even if it did, and I accept they might be (Stormlight is impressive, look at how easily Szeth and Kaladin make multiple Shardbearers look like absolute mugs- like, mook level in Szeth's case and I imagine Kaladin with his new powers and no need to hold back would be equally one sided), that doesn't make the non-latent, non-Surgebinding Shardbearers any more capable. They demonstrably suck against enhanced fighters!

(Making your favourite more powerful may be human nature, but it's hardly good writing, and Sanderson is a good writer. It's basically part 1 of Sueism)

In essence- I think bullets beat Shardplate, but it's interesting to discuss. I am 100% sure than any half competent Atium user, especially if they had other metals too, who can get within 10m of a Shardbearer and has 3 seconds of Atium would kill him with utter contemptuous ease. As it happens, so would any half-competent Radiant who wanted to. The only people that people with Atium have to worry about surviving against for a whole minute realistically are people with really powerful magic that can't be dodged or people with Atium themselves

I'm fairly sure the only shardbearers described as slow were inexperienced ones, shardblades have very little weight in relation to their size, with enhanced strength from plate an experienced user would be much faster than normal. They are described as long sweeping blows, that doesn't mean they are slow.

Shardblades are pictured around 6-8feet, to stay outside of that reach and then dart inside and stab them in the face with a dagger is far from an easy thing to do, Kaladin did it to someone with little to no training with a blade using his latent storm light enhancement. Against an adept like Dalinar or Adolin who wouldn't leave the opening I think it would literally be writers discretion, he could have it end either way and be believable.

Against Kaladin I just don't think Allomancers can stand up to surgebinders, lashings seem far more powerful than iron or steel, the only limit being how much storm light you have. Atium can't save you if your pinned to a wall.

[Eki]

Just random thinking here, what about a shardbearer(both blade and plate) v.s. a Tank.

I think a direct hit would shatter plate, but if the shardbearer gets behind the cannon, the tank is completely exposed.

[Voidus]

I'm fairly sure the only shardbearers described as slow were inexperienced ones, shardblades have very little weight in relation to their size, with enhanced strength from plate an experienced user would be much faster than normal. They are described as long sweeping blows, that doesn't mean they are slow.

Shardblades are pictured around 6-8feet, to stay outside of that reach and then dart inside and stab them in the face with a dagger is far from an easy thing to do, Kaladin did it to someone with little to no training with a blade using his latent storm light enhancement. Against an adept like Dalinar or Adolin who wouldn't leave the opening I think it would literally be writers discretion, he could have it end either way and be believable.

Against Kaladin I just don't think Allomancers can stand up to surgebinders, lashings seem far more powerful than iron or steel, the only limit being how much storm light you have. Atium can't save you if your pinned to a wall.

Why would they need to stay outside the range, they can be in the perfect range and still be absolutely fine, duck or just step over the blade with perfect timing. Or just shoot a coin from a kilometer away knowing that the Shardbearer will turn at just the right moment that it takes them in the face. An opening is something that only applies to someone not burning atium, Dalinar and Adolin would be like children against a Mistborn, barely more difficult to kill than any of the hundreds of soldiers guarding Cett were.

Kal with no Plate? I'd give that win to a Mistborn. They have a far better range, Kal needs to touch someone to lash them, if he gets that close to a Seer he's dead. Or even a Mistborn without Atium really, Duralumin and pewter would end him pretty quickly if he was trying to touch them rather than use Syl to cut them.

[IndigoAjah]

I think with the knowledge of EXACTLY when and where the blows were coming, it would be laughably easy to do. As Voidus says, why stay out of range? They can dodge as the blows come, and attack as they dodge. It would be ludicrously easy, and the Shardbearer can't react unless they know exactly what is going on and then have Vin-esque presence of mind and some luck. With just Stormlight and skill, Kaladin dodged 2 Shardbearers who were intent solely on killing him for what is implied to be a significant amount of time (enough for Adolin to defeat a Shardbearer and then get to them without any power). It would be so so so easy if you added the knowledge of exactly what you are going to do

[Airplane Maniac]

I think a direct hit would shatter plate, but if the shardbearer gets behind the cannon, the tank is completely exposed.

Agreed. The first shot from the tank would be absorbed(while shattering plate), and by the time that the Tank would be ready for a second shot, it would be too late. The Armer on a tank would be useless.

 

Another point to remeamber is that not only does Atium allow you to see the future, it also increases your mental capacity. I can see this adding as a addition to the side of the Mistborn, They would be able to very quickly figure out how to out manover their opponent.

[Pathfinder]

You have to assume that any mistborn has maybe a minute of atium to burn, it is far too valuable and scarce to allow more than that. Also Atium only allows you to escape if there is a possibility you could, if there is no way to escape death, which when fighting a shardbearer especially a radiant is a distinct possibility then you are still dead.

Also Brendon has said Roshar is his baby more so than any series he has done so far, simply taking that into account he would make Rosharians the most latently powerful, it's human nature to make your favourite more OP.

Furthermore WoB have stated that shardplate gives substantially more benefit then flaring pewter, couple this with a shardblade being more dangerous then any weapon I know a mistborn to possess and its defensive benefits we have a very clear winner, Atium would probably allow many mistborn to survive for a minute or so but win, I doubt it.

Can you provide the WoB that you referenced that I bolded? Not saying you are wrong or right, but I have not heard of that WoB and am curious. 

 

I'm fairly sure the only shardbearers described as slow were inexperienced ones, shardblades have very little weight in relation to their size, with enhanced strength from plate an experienced user would be much faster than normal. They are described as long sweeping blows, that doesn't mean they are slow.

Shardblades are pictured around 6-8feet, to stay outside of that reach and then dart inside and stab them in the face with a dagger is far from an easy thing to do, Kaladin did it to someone with little to no training with a blade using his latent storm light enhancement. Against an adept like Dalinar or Adolin who wouldn't leave the opening I think it would literally be writers discretion, he could have it end either way and be believable.

Against Kaladin I just don't think Allomancers can stand up to surgebinders, lashings seem far more powerful than iron or steel, the only limit being how much storm light you have. Atium can't save you if your pinned to a wall.

Shardblades are lighter than one would expect of a blade comparable to their size, but are still heavy. 

[IndigoAjah]

I'm fairly sure the only shardbearers described as slow were inexperienced ones, shardblades have very little weight in relation to their size, with enhanced strength from plate an experienced user would be much faster than normal. They are described as long sweeping blows, that doesn't mean they are slow.

Shardblades are pictured around 6-8feet, to stay outside of that reach and then dart inside and stab them in the face with a dagger is far from an easy thing to do, Kaladin did it to someone with little to no training with a blade using his latent storm light enhancement. Against an adept like Dalinar or Adolin who wouldn't leave the opening I think it would literally be writers discretion, he could have it end either way and be believable.

Against Kaladin I just don't think Allomancers can stand up to surgebinders, lashings seem far more powerful than iron or steel, the only limit being how much storm light you have. Atium can't save you if your pinned to a wall.

I'm fairly sure the only shardbearers described as slow were inexperienced ones, shardblades have very little weight in relation to their size, with enhanced strength from plate an experienced user would be much faster than normal. They are described as long sweeping blows, that doesn't mean they are slow.

Shardblades are pictured around 6-8feet, to stay outside of that reach and then dart inside and stab them in the face with a dagger is far from an easy thing to do, Kaladin did it to someone with little to no training with a blade using his latent storm light enhancement. Against an adept like Dalinar or Adolin who wouldn't leave the opening I think it would literally be writers discretion, he could have it end either way and be believable.

Against Kaladin I just don't think Allomancers can stand up to surgebinders, lashings seem far more powerful than iron or steel, the only limit being how much storm light you have. Atium can't save you if your pinned to a wall.

I think You are describing Pewter...

[Jimmy]

Agreed. The first shot from the tank would be absorbed(while shattering plate), and by the time that the Tank would be ready for a second shot, it would be too late. The Armer on a tank would be useless.

 

Another point to remeamber is that not only does Atium allow you to see the future, it also increases your mental capacity. I can see this adding as a addition to the side of the Mistborn, They would be able to very quickly figure out how to out manover their opponent.

 

Tanks can fire pretty fast, much faster than you'd think. Modern ones can fire accurately at targets 800-1000m away, while moving up to 60kph. An experienced crew can get first round hits at that range while moving in the complete opposite direction if they wanted to. And thats only taking into account the main gun, there are coaxial machine guns, 40mm grenade launchers, different ammunition types... Unless you've got grunts that REALLY know what they're doing, tanks win. 

 

I'd put my money on a single tank against a dozen shard bearers or more. Unless we're on the shattered plains, but what idiot would put his tank there in the first place?

 

Bullets, yes maybe. Tanks... No. Not even slightly. Nobody in Hollywood knows what modern armour can do and so they don't show it. Pretty sure thats what turned me off the walking dead after the first episode (maybe second) where they showed the zombies killed a tank. Utterly implausible. 

 

I'm not too sure on how atium works exactly, but it should be impossible to avoid an explosion that has a hundred metre kill zone. If you see it coming and move the gunner would have ample time to aim at your new position. Paradox of potential explosions! Or the main gun could airburst an explosion while the coaxial tracks the target, while screening smoke and HE with separate launchers. 

[Charlie.x.3000]

Umm... can't the tank just go full speed reverse while shooting the shardbearer? I don't think shardbearers can outrun tanks

[Voidus]

Tanks can fire pretty fast, much faster than you'd think. Modern ones can fire accurately at targets 800-1000m away, while moving up to 60kph. An experienced crew can get first round hits at that range while moving in the complete opposite direction if they wanted to. And thats only taking into account the main gun, there are coaxial machine guns, 40mm grenade launchers, different ammunition types... Unless you've got grunts that REALLY know what they're doing, tanks win. 

 

I'd put my money on a single tank against a dozen shard bearers or more. Unless we're on the shattered plains, but what idiot would put his tank there in the first place?

 

Bullets, yes maybe. Tanks... No. Not even slightly. Nobody in Hollywood knows what modern armour can do and so they don't show it. Pretty sure thats what turned me off the walking dead after the first episode (maybe second) where they showed the zombies killed a tank. Utterly implausible. 

 

I'm not too sure on how atium works exactly, but it should be impossible to avoid an explosion that has a hundred metre kill zone. If you see it coming and move the gunner would have ample time to aim at your new position. Paradox of potential explosions! Or the main gun could airburst an explosion while the coaxial tracks the target, while screening smoke and HE with separate launchers. 

Mistborn with Atium could definitely avoid it, or for that matter just straight up deflect it. Regukar Seer would probably die to the blast but probably not to a machine gun.

[DreamEternal]

Mistborn with Atium could definitely avoid it, or for that matter just straight up deflect it. Regukar Seer would probably die to the blast but probably not to a machine gun.

I think you are underestimating machine guns. And Mistborn are powerful, but I think duraluminun would be needed to deflect a tank's shell(is that the right word for the thing the main cannon fires?), since it is pretty fast and not very light.

Yes, a mistborn could dodge using atium, and perhaps destroy the tank with proper use of duraluminum+steel, but said mistborn has a very limited supply of atium, and a badly done use of duraluminum would make him powerless.

[Pathfinder]

I do agree the higher caliber machine gun bullets would be hard for the mistborn to deflect while avoiding the tank's shells but just two points. First unlike a shardbearer, a mistborn's way of attacking does not involve charging right at the tank. Second, as shown in technology, it would be more likely that Scadrial would end up being the ones employing the tanks, not fighting them. 

[Voidus]

I think you are underestimating machine guns. And Mistborn are powerful, but I think duraluminun would be needed to deflect a tank's shell(is that the right word for the thing the main cannon fires?), since it is pretty fast and not very light.

Yes, a mistborn could dodge using atium, and perhaps destroy the tank with proper use of duraluminum+steel, but said mistborn has a very limited supply of atium, and a badly done use of duraluminum would make him powerless.

Well they can't fill an area with enough bullets that theres no place within that space that is safe, and if there is a safe spot the Mistborn will be in it. Duralumin would probably be needed but deflecting it wouldn't be as hard as full on stopping it so maybe not.

 

Well they don't need Atium to dodge, it's just easier if they do. In terms of actually destroying the tank, steelpush ontop of the tank, blow tank up, profit.

[Pathfinder]

Well they can't fill an area with enough bullets that theres no place within that space that is safe, and if there is a safe spot the Mistborn will be in it. Duralumin would probably be needed but deflecting it wouldn't be as hard as full on stopping it so maybe not.

 

Well they don't need Atium to dodge, it's just easier if they do. In terms of actually destroying the tank, steelpush ontop of the tank, blow tank up, profit.

I love the Mistborn trilogy the most out of Sanderson's books, but even I can admit a mistborn deflecting a high caliber machine gun that is typically on top of a tank is a stretch. Wax deflecting regular bullets still has a chance to graze or hit him. And if the mistborn used duralumin to deflect the bullets, only a portion of the bullets would be deflected, as the machine gunner would still have a whole strip of bullets to continue laying down cover fire. If the mistborn was stealthy, then yes, totally could take out a tank. But one on one, running/jumping towards it? Not so sure on that. 

[DreamEternal]

In terms of actually destroying the tank, steelpush ontop of the tank, blow tank up, profit.

I don't think that would work without duraluminum and a lot of skill. Tanks are made to resist powerful explosives, and regular steelpushing doens't seem to be able to generate that much energy in a single burst without duraluminum.

Edited April 20, 2016 by DreamEternal

[Vissy]

Iron to anchor yourself, with duralumin to strengthen, you could totally send a tank flying. I have no doubt in my mind about that. Now, to get in a position to do that... that takes a bit of luck and skill, if the tank crew has spotted you.

[DreamEternal]

Iron to anchor yourself, with duralumin to strengthen, you could totally send a tank flying. I have no doubt in my mind about that. Now, to get in a position to do that... that takes a bit of luck and skill, if the tank crew has spotted you.

It doens't help that said mistborn would be out of metals after said push, so if it didn't work perfectly, or if the tank's crew had allies, the mistborn would have a bad time.

EDIT: and using steelpushes to dodge machine guns will probably not work without atium, since the mobility they provide is limited enough for the possibility of the shooter actualy managing to put some of his hundreds of bullets in the right place to be considerable.

Edited April 20, 2016 by DreamEternal

[18th Shard]

Depends on the technique. Wax can create a steel bubble that deflects bullets passively. However, a good mistborn would snipe them with their bullets from a range, as I believe a machine gun's accuracy drops way down over distance. However, a tank shell would be the problem, explosions are hard to dodge. I think the best strategy is some metal bomb pushed to the tank.

 

As for Shardbearer v. Mistborn, coin to the face. From a distance. Way too easy, esp. with atium. Without it's a matter of staying in the air out of reach and repeatedly firing coins. Profit.

[kenod]

First of all, steelpushing isn't perfectly accurate, you can only push from your center of mass, so you probably wouldn't be able to aim the coin that precise that you could shoot a coin through a visor, at least not without atium.