The Shards are gay: wierd vibes

[BramFinem Ardent]

Ok, so I just finished rereading Secret History after it was brought up in another thread, and I'm not sure why, but I keep getting kind of vibes that Leras and Ati might have been a thing back on Yolen. I really want this to be true, because then it would be heartbreaking. So, in the letter it talks about Ati being really nice before he was corrupted by Ruin's intent, and I think it would be a really powerful story.

We have these two people who loved each other, maybe Ati was given Ruin because they thought he was nice enough to counteract it, he and Leras go off together, but Ati is corrupted further and further by the shard, to the point where Leras had to keep him improsoned. Then, his Cognitive Shadow in secret history is vague enough that all it remembers is that it has to stop ruin.

I don't think Brandon would have intentionally written it in, but did anyone else get that vibe? Maybe I'm just insane...

[Master Elodin Misting]

I could see it happening.

[Young Bard Gerontarch]

I got more of a siblings feel out of the relationship rather than a romantic one. Which, in it's own way, is just as tragic (and something Brandon would probably be much more likely to write in.)

[Erunion Full Shardbearer]

Either siblings or a romantic couple, or just best friends. 

But I'm fairly confident that Ati and Leras were a team - best buds for sure, brothers possibly, lovers possibly. 

 

So yes, it is a tragedy, however you spin it. 

[Your3rdShadow Bridgeman]

Look at the lot of you. Life sucked enough for those two as is! Why are you trying to make their lives worse?!?!? Your all monsters!

[Argent Splinter]

It's certainly possible, but at least as far as the imprisonment goes, I thought it was made clear that Preservation did it for humankind, not for Ati. 

[ParadoxicalZen Svrakiss]

Lerati? Arias? Surprised they've not been shipped before. Talk about star-crossed (or should that be Shard-crossed?) Ba dum tshhh

[Landis963 Dakhor Monk]

Lerati? Arias? Surprised they've not been shipped before. Talk about star-crossed (or should that be Shard-crossed?) Ba dum tshhh

 

I've seen at least one fic on Ao3 where Leras stuck around in the Cognitive Realm just so he and Ati could... reconcile.  

[Pathfinder Voidbringer]

I am hazy on recollection, but wasn't it mentioned either in the story itself, or in a WoB that Leras had a individual with a name that sounded like a woman that began with an S that was important to him? I assumed she was his wife or love interest. 

[Argent Splinter]

I am hazy on recollection, but wasn't it mentioned either in the story itself, or in a WoB that Leras had a individual with a name that sounded like a woman that began with an S that was important to him? I assumed she was his wife or love interest. 

 

Senna. We don't know anything about her (if it is indeed her).

[Rasarr Seer]

I am hazy on recollection, but wasn't it mentioned either in the story itself, or in a WoB that Leras had a individual with a name that sounded like a woman that began with an S that was important to him? I assumed she was his wife or love interest. 

 

Aye, Senna. He mentioned her in Secret History. For some reason I assumed it was some deity he worshipped, not sure why. 

 

Here, mentioned exactly once: 

 

"Oh, Senna..." Preservation whispered. "I'm losing this place. Losing them all..."

 

Now that I look at it, unless there's a WoB I failed to catch, for all we know Senna could be a place.

Edited March 23, 2016 by Rasarr

[Pathfinder Voidbringer]

True could be a lot of things, but my own interpretation is speaking to a loved one that had passed away in the past regarding a crisis in the present. Like saying "Oh, Tina... I wish you were hear. I am losing it. I don't know what to do anymore". That is just how it felt/sounded to me.

[BramFinem Ardent]

When I read that, I sounded really similar to those times when Wax would say "Oh, Harmony", as if it was a god or higher power. And I looked at the Ao3 fic, it was reasonable. But one of the reasons I'm actually hoping that they were in love is that I think it would be a brilliant way for Brandon to get some more LGBT into the Cosmere. The characters are dead, so it would only be necessary to either put in a WoB about it or write it into a shard or Hoid flashback, and it would make an incredibly sad and complex story!

[RenegadeShroom High Prelan]

I'd say that the two of them being dead is also a detriment in this case. Much as I'd love it if they were, that carries some unfortunate implications, especially the last few weeks, since a major queer character got killed off in a fairly popular TV series which sparked plenty of outrage. 

 

What I'm saying is, if Ati and Leras were lovers, then I'd hope that Brandon at least introduces a couple other major queer characters or reveals that other major characters are queer, otherwise it's gonna come off poorly with the current state of queer representation in the Cosmere. Bury your gays is a nasty trope. u__u 

[Haradion Drogon Arbiter]

Senna is a point.
And what about this?

"Ruin stood up nearby, blinking. Or . . . no, it wasn’t Ruin any longer. It was just the Vessel, Ati. The man who had held the power. Ati ran his hand through his red hair, then looked about. “Vax?” he said, sounding confused. “Excuse me,” Kelsier said to Vin, then released her and trotted over to the red-haired man. Whereupon he decked the man across the face, laying him out completely."

 

Anyone know who Vax is?

[BramFinem Ardent]

Hmmm... From the context, I'd place it as almost a swear word, like Rust and Ruin. He could be saying something along the lines of "the hell? Where am I?" But then again, from what we've heard of Ati form the letter, I don't know if he'd speak that way. Maybe we will be forced to wait until Brandon deigns to give us answers.

Also, I agree completely about wanting more prominent queer characters, and I have high hopes for this. I liked the inclusion of Ranette as lesbian, and I personally was very sure that Steris was asexual until the last few books, and I still think that she may not feel sexual attraction, but feel a romantic attraction (as she does seem to love Wax). But as a gay guy myself, I'm still holding out hope for a gay male lead in one of the Cosmere books, especially since to my recollection we haven't had a queer guy in the Cosmere so far (apart from one of the bridge men, I can't find the quote though)

Edited March 24, 2016 by BramFinem

[natc Mistborn]

As per the new version of Elantris and its included Ars Arcanum, Vax appears to be a planet.

[Landis963 Dakhor Monk]

Hmmm... From the context, I'd place it as almost a swear word, like Rust and Ruin. He could be saying something along the lines of "the hell? Where am I?" But then again, from what we've heard of Ati form the letter, I don't know if he'd speak that way. Maybe we will be forced to wait until Brandon deigns to give us answers.

Also, I agree completely about wanting more prominent queer characters, and I have high hopes for this. I liked the inclusion of Ranette as lesbian, and I personally was very sure that Steris was asexual until the last few books, and I still think that she may not feel sexual attraction, but feel a romantic attraction (as she does seem to love Wax). But as a gay guy myself, I'm still holding out hope for a gay male lead in one of the Cosmere books, especially since to my recollection we haven't had a queer guy in the Cosmere so far (apart from one of the bridge men, I can't find the quote though)

 

The Bridgeman you're thinking of is Drehy.  He's a cameo of one of Brandon's friends, who's gay IRL.  Apparently we'll be meeting his husband in Stormlight 3?  Or at least a future Stormlight.  (Maybe in that novella set to be included with Arcanum Unbound)

[Erunion Full Shardbearer]

I think it more likely that Ati and Leras were close friends/brothers rather than lovers. It fits the characters and the tragedy more, if that makes any sense?

It's just the way I read their relationship. 

Ati slowly losing his will to Ruin, Leras' urge to preserve leading him to betray his once closest friend.

 

 

 

It would be good to see better representation of LGBT in media in general (and Cosmere in particular). However, keep in mind that at best census data LGBT people make up around 3.5% of the population, with around half that group being bisexual. So statistically, only around 2.5% of humans would be in a homosexual relationship, or actively seeking one in the context of this kind of story.

 

Which means that around 1 out of every 50 characters 'should' be gay, if that makes sense. 

 

So I guess what I'm saying is: how many major characters are there in a story? How many can be considered main characters? Assuming Sanderson writes 5 main characters per book, then by his 10th book one should have been gay...

 

Statistically. Obviously, every author is an artist, and the story takes preeminence over stats!

/end ramble

Edited March 24, 2016 by Erunion

[Your3rdShadow Bridgeman]

You know, 1 in 50 people are metalborn on Scadrial in the Alloy of Law era, how many do you think would also happen to be that 1 in 50 gay statistic? This is a legitimate question for me, math was not my best subject. Regardless, i feel like the number would be super small, and as the main character in the first three story arcs are Allomancers, I don't think it's likely that the next arc's character will be gay. Of course I read somewhere that Brandon said Hoid will be the main character for the Sci-fi arc(number 4), so he might be gay? I haven't seen any indication of his preferences as of yet, or if I have, I don't recall it.

[Argent Splinter]

I am seeing some pitfalls here, so let's address them before we start falling in them.

 

Using population demographics - from Earth, no less - is not a good (or even valid) way to determine how many literary characters should fall into one group or another. Not only are Earthly statistics not necessarily applicable to imaginary worlds, which characters get chosen for the spotlight is entirely up to the author. You can have a world where only 10% of all people are women, and you can still have a story about a military unit composed entirely of women. Granted, I don't think we are dealing with anything nearly as extreme as that, but extreme examples prove points.

 

The more important factor here, however, is that Brandon doesn't feel comfortable enough to write an LGBTQ character with more screentime, he doesn't think he knows enough to write them well. And writing them poorly would be far worse than avoiding them until he gets good at it. 

[Erunion Full Shardbearer]

Great point Argent! 

If he does do a homosexual main character, he would need to do it as well as he did Jasnah as an Atheist; it would take the same amount of dedication, focus and research. Possibly more, as AFAIK mormons are very much against homosexuality, so it might be difficult for him to write a homosexual character for those reasons.

As a straight, relatively conservative protestant christian, I completely get how difficult that might be to write well. And Sanderson isn't the kind of person who could comfortably do a mediocre job on a character. 

 

 

Mostly my comment on stats was a digression. In my defense, it was 1:00 in the morning and I'd been working all day...

[natc Mistborn]

He's done a homosexual side character before, from my memory. Just not a main one. But it was based on a friend of his who was gay, so I don't think he actually minds too much.

[Landis963 Dakhor Monk]

He's done a homosexual side character before, from my memory. Just not a main one. But it was based on a friend of his who was gay, so I don't think he actually minds too much.

 

There have been two homosexual characters with lines, IIRC: Drehy of SLA, whom you're thinking of, and Ranette from WaW.  (We haven't met Drehy's husband yet, and Ranette's mentioned her girlfriend's name, but I don't believe she's had screentime either)

[Pathfinder Voidbringer]

On one hand I appreciate Sanderson taking the time to try and do a lgbt character justice, but on the other I feel like why would it be so hard to do? Straight, lesbian, gay, bi or transgender, they are all the same, they are people. The only difference is they have different tastes in who they are attracted to or how they identify. I mean I get he wouldn't want to do the cliche trope or stereotype them, but I could only see it as being a central issue to a story if the world or culture treats the topic like our world at the moment treats it. Then it would be difficult on an author who never experienced the hardships growing up, and living in such a society to relate and write such a character. But otherwise in the end we are all just human. 

Edited March 25, 2016 by Pathfinder