Confused

Speculation About Frost’s Role in the Shattering

34 posts in this topic

The two “Letters” between Hoid and Frost raise questions about the nature of Frost’s participation in the conspiracy that Shattered Adonalsium. Frost clearly had some role in the Shattering:

 

  • “Is not the destruction we have wrought enough?”
  • Our interference so far has brought nothing but pain.”
  • “[Rayse] is what we made him to be, old friend.”

 

Brandon has strongly suggested but never confirmed that Frost is not a Vessel for a Shard. Unless there’s something peculiar about dragons, becoming a Shard’s Vessel should have vaporized his body. Yet he’s still an “old reptile.”

 

WoB (# 124) also says that Frost is “functionally” immortal “meaning he doesn’t age but can be killed.” This phrasing suggests that Frost lacks the degree of self-healing capacity that Hoid himself has: Hoid can grow a new head if he were beheaded and is very difficult to kill (WoB).

 

But the First Letter states “as you are now essentially immortal, I would guess that wellness on your part is something of a given.” This suggests that Frost “now” has sufficient self-healing capacity to be illness-free if not violence free. This new capacity seems to have arisen in connection with the Shattering.

 

My speculation:

 

1. Because Frost and Hoid are the two oldest Cosmere characters – and presumably had the greatest knowledge of Adonalsium – they knew things the sixteen Vessels didn’t know. I speculate that they advised the sixteen HOW to Shatter Adonalsium. Maybe they designed the “weapon” that killed him. Neither wanted to become a Vessel himself.

 

2. Rayse and Bavadin may have persuaded Hoid to help, who then sought out Frost. That would explain why Hoid is so angry at them, “perpetuating [his] grudge” against them. Hoid may feel they betrayed him, especially after Rayse killed Skai and Aona. (And Tanavast “bought drinks” for Hoid once…one of my favorite lines in SLA.)

 

3. Frost OTOH seems to feel guilt over his participation more than anything else. Now he languishes on Yolen, bound by his nonintervention oath.

 

4. It’s possible the “price” the Vessels paid Frost for his help was his “functional” immortality. Perhaps that’s also how Hoid acquired his spectacular Feruchemical ability, as his price. These would have been "paid" after the conspirators ascended.

 

5. I suspect Frost’s involvement with the Seventeenth Shard is simply as a provider of information. Once Khriss discovered him (and maybe Yolen), he filled in her historical knowledge. I doubt he’s an active member, though he appears in ongoing communication with them (or at least Hoid thinks so).

 

Rank speculation is so much fun! Thoughts?

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I've been developing and researching a pet theory of my own regarding those 2 and the 17th and the Shattering and a lot of what you say sort of, but not quite, matches what I have been putting together. But I'm also not done with my research yet, so who knows what my end theory will end up saying lol

 

I think you definitely make some good points though, and I agree, Frost and Hoid are definitely involved in the pre-Shattering plot against Adolnasium. I'm just not convinced it's entirely in the way you've described.

 

I think Frost may have been leading the decision to Shatter good ole A', and was part of the "group" that became the 17th Shard. I think the 17th Shard is working very hard to keep Adolnasium from being put back together again, something Frost agreed with at first, but as he's lived SO long now, can see both sides to what he was part of and has now decided to have no part in it whatsoever. Guilt, perhaps, for his role in the devastation brought to so many planets, and the killing of Vessels and Splintering of Shards? Frost may still believe they did the right thing, but also won't betray Hoid to the 17th, they are after all, old friends.

 

Hoid, then is attempting to restore Adolnasium, collecting bits of each Shard he finds, looking for clues and for the one Thing that will bring him to the end of his quest. I wouldn't be surprised if Rayse felt betrayed by Hoid. I think Hoid was also originally part of the group that was planning to Shatter Adolnasium, but instead warned Adolnasium of what was being planned (EDIT: the other thing I've been wondering about is if Adolnasium had Shardic furture sight, which would have also given him a heads up. END EDIT), effectively betraying the entire group of people he was working with. Adolnasium then prepared for what was about to happen to him, and Hoid has made it his goal to figure out that plan and see it come to pass.

 

So, I think the 17th Shard *wants* to keep Adolnasium split. Frost agrees with them, but does not actively aid them.

 

I think you're on to something with the Splintered Shards having given Frost and Hoid their "powers" though, as payment. Frost could, essentially, hold "power" from Endowment (different to, but along the same lines of how Returned are effectively immortal" and Hoid's payment could have been given by Ruin/Preservation, as we know Feruchemy was the first magic on Scadrial and that they created that planet together. It makes sense the Shards would have had early manifestations of how their powers would have worked, just not developed or as formative as they were on the planets years and years later. So Hoid can essentially "use" Feruchemy, but he's not a Feruchemist. :D Frost is functionally immortal, but not Returned.

 

When I get around to posting my theory I'll have my list of WoBs and excerpts to help support some of this.

Edited by Shadowfax
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This is a post I need to watch very closely. You both have theories which border my own, and I'm interested to see how many more people out there have similar thoughts.

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By the way, it's Adonalsium not Adolnasium.

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By the way, it's Adonalsium not Adolnasium.

We can blame my tablet for that one. I need to figure out how to change the spelling it saved and keeps autocorrecting. I made one stupid typo way back when and now it's stuck :(

 

But, I've seen plenty of misspellings of character/place/etc names on this forum, but I've never seen someone reply to a discussion just to tell someone they spelt something wrong; it doesn't really add to the discussion and (in my case) makes an already shy/skittish person even more panicky and afraid to post than I already am.

 

Sorry about the typo :(

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I'm sorry Shadowfax. Its really not a big deal. I'm just kind of a freak about these kinds of things. If you are looking for more constructive feedback, however, I dont think that Frost's oath of nonintervention applied to the whole 17th shard.

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I'm sorry Shadowfax. Its really not a big deal. I'm just kind of a freak about these kinds of things. If you are looking for more constructive feedback, however, I dont think that Frost's oath of nonintervention applied to the whole 17th shard.

 

I'm a bit of a grammar freak myself, so I DO understand. I think I took the perceived calling out a little personally, but I'm wont to do that kind of thing :/ No hard feelings :D

 

And no, I don't think it applies to the entire 17th. I think Frost is content not to involve himself, and I think he sides with the 17th (and may even be a member, or a past member), but due to his non-intervention, isn't taking sides... That's a horrible way to explain it. o.O  I think Frost agrees with what the 17th is doing but won't assist either the 17th or Hoid. There, that sounded a little better.

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And no, I don't think it applies to the entire 17th. I think Frost is content not to involve himself, and I think he sides with the 17th (and may even be a member, or a past member), but due to his non-intervention, isn't taking sides... That's a horrible way to explain it. o.O  I think Frost agrees with what the 17th is doing but won't assist either the 17th or Hoid. There, that sounded a little better.

Ok, that makes more sense. What if the 17th shard worship the God Beyond?

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Ok, that makes more sense. What if the 17th shard worship the God Beyond?

There's definitely room for that speculation.

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Re: Frost and 17th Shard, we all seem to assume that either the 17th has a goal Frost isn't aiding them in, or they have a goal Frost is aiding them in. What if there's a third option? I mean, nobody said that the 17th Shard is of one mind. There could be people worshipping the God Beyond and running around the Cosmere doing "His work", whatever it might be, there could be people who are just there for the views or sciences, like Khriss and perhaps Mraize, there could even be people who worldhop to trade. There could be a faction arguing for putting Adonalsium back together and one agruing for non-intervention and keeping Adolnalsium split. For all we know, of the three travellers from the Purelake, one wants to stop Hoid, the other wants to aid him, and the last one just wants to interview him, and they travel together for convenience.

 

How this impacts Frost: for all we know, he could be supporting one of those factions within 17th Shard; he might not be supporting any; he could be playing all factions against one another, hoping to tie them up enough to keep them from impacting Cosmere too much. Really, everything goes. He might believe that Adonalsium should be split for whatever reason, and that it should be kept split (perhaps keeping it together kills the world, or something). We don't really know enough of the Shard to be able to tell.  :(

 

Not sure if that's all too much on topic, I just wanted to point out the possibility.

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Hoid can grow a new head if he were beheaded and is very difficult to kill (WoB).

 

Can you link that WoB? I need it for another joketheory I'm developing.

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Can you link that WoB? I need it for another joketheory I'm developing.

 

I have never seen one regarding him growing a new head, as far as I know we have only seen examples like that with Bloodmaking and Stormlight usage. But, this is the WOB on him being really, really, really hard to kill:

 

 
Interview: Mar 24th, 2014 Question
Finally, and most importantly, if all your protagonists had an epic all out brawl, who would win?
Brandon Sanderson

Some of them are immortal, but that would kind of be cheating. If you let people who are immortal participate, it's going to very much favor someone like Hoid, who is really, really, really hard to kill. Of course, he would not be very good at offing anyone either, because of certain things in his past. It would be really futile when it got down to the last two. But if we take that out.

You'd have to set ground rules. Do they get access to their magic? Where is it taking place? If we take away all magic and we just say people are beating up on each other, who's going to win? It's probably Kelsier because he'll fight dirty. Vasher fights really dirty, too. If Kelsier and Vasher gang up on the rest, and then it depends who's still not in pieces at the end. It'd be Kelsier or Vasher probably.

Tags

 

 

(Emphasis mine)

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Well Frost isn't on Yolen, or if he is he's dead/coma.

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Can you link that WoB? I need it for another joketheory I'm developing.

 

We have mention that The Lord Ruler could probably survive a beheading, as well as Miles. There is a currently non-canon novel that I'm not allowed to talk about that makes reference to such things being possible for Hoid.

 

Well Frost isn't on Yolen, or if he is he's dead/coma.

 

What makes you say that he's no longer on Yolen?

Edited by the.fulgid
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Brandon Sanderson says that Yolen has no Cognitive activity.

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Brandon Sanderson says that Yolen has no Cognitive activity.

Hold on, WHAT? Do you have a link for this? I sense many many theories to be made...

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Brandon Sanderson says that Yolen has no Cognitive activity.

 

We know that Yolen still exists in the Cosmere, and that space travel is a possibility. Plus he's an immortal dragon. No reason he can't just come and go as needed.

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He also says that Frost isn't a worldhopper, e.g. he has never left Yolen.

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He also says that Frost isn't a worldhopper, e.g. he has never left Yolen.

 

I guess that is a very good point. Though...if the destruction of Adonalsium also destroyed Yolen, at least the point that it forced everyone off, that would explain how hey could no longer be there, not be a worldhopper, and no one is going to or coming from Yolen.

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If he's not a worldhopper, it means he hasn't moved worlds. So that WoB pretty much precludes the Shattering destroying Yolen, IMO.

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That seemed like an informal answer from Brandon. Does traveling from a planet to a moon (or vice versa) count as world hopping? What about using a space ship (vs. via a shard pool)? What about being flung somewhere because of the shattering? The shattering could have caused part of Yolen to break off, forming a moon or an asteroid belt. Also, could Frost be a cognitive shadow (that whole thing about now being essentially immortal)? If so, maybe the physical realm Yolen is in really rough shape but to so much the cognitive realm version?

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Hold on, WHAT? Do you have a link for this? I sense many many theories to be made...

It's in the newest news article.

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It's in the newest news article.

 

"It is not unreacheable from Shadesmar due to a total lack of cognitive activity there"

 

That's saying that a lack of cognitive activity isn't the reason it can't be reached

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That still implies that there is no cognitive activity.

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Brandon Sanderson says that Yolen has no Cognitive activity.

 

It's in the newest news article.

 

"It is not unreacheable from Shadesmar due to a total lack of cognitive activity there"

 

That's saying that a lack of cognitive activity isn't the reason it can't be reached

 

Master_Moridin is correct. Master_Elodin, you seem to be misunderstanding Brandon's answer. The question was if Yolen is unreachable (or lost a Kriss said) from the cognitive realm because there isn't any (or isn't enough) cognitive thought for it to appear there. Brandon said that is not correct.

 

For reference, here is the WOB, it is from the Calamity Tour: Chicago:

 

Q: Is the only reason that Yolen is not reachable, according to Khriss, because it doesn’t have any sentience on it thinking of it as a planet, so it doesn’t appear in the Cognitive?

A: Ahh, no. Good question, but no.

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